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United States47024 Posts
Level 6 burst assuming no AP
Annie:
130 (rank 2 Disintegrate)
205 (rank 3 Incinerate)
200 (rank 1 Tibbers)
= 535 + 40 (for each second Tibbers is in range of the target) + 80 (for each auto-attack Tibbers gets)
Lux:
160 (rank 3 Light Binding)
150 (rank 2 Lucent Singularity)
300 (rank 1 Finales Funkeln)
= 610 + 70 (for each Illumination proc)
Lux will probably not get all 3 Illumination procs, particularly if Finales Funkeln is used at long range. Two is probably the most reasonable in most situations. Going on the assumption of 2 procs, and 2 Tibbers autoattacks, Annie's burst is higher, because Tibbers is likely to be in immolation range for much longer than 2 seconds. It is also possible for Annie to Q a 2nd time, which pushes her burst noticeably higher.
I think the level 18 numbers favor Lux because her AP ratios are better, but in level 18 fights, AoE damage is more relevant, and Annie will probably be able to stun a second time and Q multiple times, and Lux is less likely to trigger Illumination procs through means other than Finales Funkeln, because it requires moving into 550 range.
On December 28 2010 15:53 Phrost wrote:
Generally speaking I don't get ROA because you can get MP5 Seals and Glyphs and not need the extra regen from the catalyst.
See, "casters that need regen" gets screwed up because of Heimer--he's very mana hungry but DRing stack->ZRing is still the way to go with him.
On December 28 2010 15:53 Phrost wrote:
I'd say the only people that would want a fast catalyst are annie and morgana. I can't see myself needing the HP and Mana from the catalyst and wanting to buy a ROA on almost any other champion.
Anivia? Kassadin? Both of them consume mana fast enough that even WITH double sets of regen runes, you will still be able to make use of Catalyst mana.
I'm pretty sure Cata->eventual RoA is core on Veigar and Ryze as well, but I'm not as familiar with either of those two.
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On December 28 2010 16:11 Abenson wrote:
Zomg Loci isn't in top 10 anymore
Too busy playing on his smurf probably
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I never see loci anymore, not even on smurf. Though he did have a solo lane nunu game last week.
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lux> annie
-her nukes are longer range allowing her to live longer
-keeps mejai stacks easily imo
annie> lux
-she is an amazing 1v1 solo, able to shut down most ranged mid and hardly loses to any matchup mid/top.
-AoE stun
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On December 28 2010 16:19 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 15:53 Phrost wrote:
Generally speaking I don't get ROA because you can get MP5 Seals and Glyphs and not need the extra regen from the catalyst. See, "casters that need regen" gets screwed up because of Heimer--he's very mana hungry but DRing stack->ZRing is still the way to go with him. Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 15:53 Phrost wrote:
I'd say the only people that would want a fast catalyst are annie and morgana. I can't see myself needing the HP and Mana from the catalyst and wanting to buy a ROA on almost any other champion. Anivia? Kassadin? Both of them consume mana fast enough that even WITH double sets of regen runes, you will still be able to make use of Catalyst mana. I'm pretty sure Cata->eventual RoA is core on Veigar and Ryze as well, but I'm not as familiar with either of those two.
Anivia and Kassadin would get a tear of the goddess instead of a catalyst in most cases. Archangels provides more mana and regen and the extra health in most situations wont prevent them from dying.
I don't really count Ryze right now because he's not really in a defined role. They want him to be a caster carry but really he ends up just being useless or more aoe damage. Either way the extra health won't save him.
I don't get ROA on veigar because you're better off with the extra HP from rylais or just getting a tear again and abusing his passive. The catalyst gives no actual "mp5" so it doesn't help abuse his passive.
Also the Annie vs Lux thing is kinda skewed.
I'd say give them 40 AP (thats reasonable at 6) and reduce tibbers to 1 auto attack because realistically he's slow as balls and won't hit more than one if you're playing a decent player.
Also rank 3 Disintegrate not Incinerate, you wouldn't level W first in lane.
Now even if Annie's burst is higher, the range on W severely hurts her ability to pull off the combo if she doesnt lead with a stun.
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On December 28 2010 16:41 HeavOnEarth wrote:
lux> annie
-her nukes are longer range allowing her to live longer
-keeps mejai stacks easily imo
annie> lux
-she is an amazing 1v1 solo, able to shut down most ranged mid and hardly loses to any matchup mid/top.
-AoE stun
additionally, lux > annie because lux is fun to play
annie > lux because lux is a bad farmer
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United States47024 Posts
On December 28 2010 16:44 Phrost wrote:
Anivia and Kassadin would get a tear of the goddess instead of a catalyst in most cases. Archangels provides more mana and regen and the extra health in most situations wont prevent them from dying.
I know for a fact Anivia gets both, and gets Cata first. DRing->Cata->Tear->RoA->AA is the build I've seen basically repeated over and over in higher-level games. And I'm pretty sure that Kassadin still gets Cata (doesn't Uta swear by it?), because the healing/HP is relevant for a laner that's going to eat some pokes every time he last-hits. Again, Tear might come eventually, but Cata is still superior early-game.
Regardless, this still sort of gets away from the question--seeing as "champs that get RoA" is a pretty unsatisfying answer to "Who gets Cata?", particularly whey your answer to "Who gets RoA?" is just "Annie and Morgana". Did I just totally miss the memo where people suddenly decided that RoA was a bad item, despite building from possibly the best laning item in the game, and being the most cost-effective possible incremental AP gain from that item?
On December 28 2010 16:44 Phrost wrote:
I'd say give them 40 AP (thats reasonable at 6) and reduce tibbers to 1 auto attack because realistically he's slow as balls and won't hit more than one if you're playing a decent player.
Also rank 3 Disintegrate not Incinerate, you wouldn't level W first in lane.
Now even if Annie's burst is higher, the range on W severely hurts her ability to pull off the combo if she doesnt lead with a stun.
I could be wrong, but I thought you needed Mercs to not be guaranteed 2 Tibbers autos if you lead with a Tibbers stun?
Rank 3 Incinerate is not ubiquitous, but it is common. TheOddOne goes QWWQW, and Annies everywhere else I've seen are split close to 50/50 with regard to whether you level Q first or W first (I believe QWWQW or QWQWW are correct, but that's a discussion for the Annie thread, not here).
Why are you wasting Tibbers if you have no stun to guarantee the kill?
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blitz doesn't need any of it but people love it on him. maybe he likes the movespeed.
it's rare but i've seen akali triforce.
in the end, no one really needs ALL of it iirc because either you're AP or your AD, or you're hybrid and there are way better hybrid items imo.
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On December 28 2010 16:52 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 16:41 HeavOnEarth wrote:
lux> annie
-her nukes are longer range allowing her to live longer
-keeps mejai stacks easily imo
annie> lux
-she is an amazing 1v1 solo, able to shut down most ranged mid and hardly loses to any matchup mid/top.
-AoE stun
additionally, lux > annie because lux is fun to play annie > lux because lux is a bad farmer
dunno, caller seems to farm dem stacks pretty well on lux lololol
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Okay.
Is there a way to force flashes reliably in a lane you're not winning outright? I want to make my jungle gank/my jungler's gank stronger, and it's obviously much easier if the lane opponent doesn't have that bullshit spell.
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On December 28 2010 19:04 dnastyx wrote:
Okay.
Is there a way to force flashes reliably in a lane you're not winning outright? I want to make my jungle gank/my jungler's gank stronger, and it's obviously much easier if the lane opponent doesn't have that bullshit spell.
The only reliable way I know: Have the jungler show up.
If you could force a defensive Flash just like that, you would be winning the lane already. You might be able to bait an offensive Flash, but that's very risky as you usually get low in the process and use your own summoners.
I guess if you run something like Exhaust/Ignite you can force a Flash in many cases, but only if you use your own summoners.
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Regarding Lux from what i've seen there are 2 playstyles for her:
- "burst", where you want to hit every proc (and usually buy sheen)
- "sniper", where you abuse high range of her skills and stay quite far away from combat (getting and sustaining mejai stacks is very easy with this style so it's surely a core item on her)
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On December 28 2010 19:59 Kaniol wrote:
Regarding Lux from what i've seen there are 2 playstyles for her:
- "burst", where you want to hit every proc (and usually buy sheen)
- "sniper", where you abuse high range of her skills and stay quite far away from combat (getting and sustaining mejai stacks is very easy with this style so it's surely a core item on her)
I think you need to play both, especially if you're paired against melee champs in lane. You have a ton of "soft" CC to abuse to allow you to harass constantly and pop almost every passive proc while getting away fine, and before level 8 or so you're still sitting within a reasonable EHP range of almost anyone (ask for a switch if you're against malphite, or someone else with a lot of damage reduction). After 8ish pick up mejais (i normally go meki > tear + boots1 > mejais > boots2) and use your CC to set up ganks, but staying safely at range as your squishyness will be exploitable by that point.
At least thats the way I tend to play her, against bads I've only lost my lane once in ~20ish games, and it was to malphite/janna with nerfed garen as my partner.
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On December 28 2010 19:04 dnastyx wrote:
Okay.
Is there a way to force flashes reliably in a lane you're not winning outright? I want to make my jungle gank/my jungler's gank stronger, and it's obviously much easier if the lane opponent doesn't have that bullshit spell.
get them to aggro you and flash while ur jungler waits
u can flash away hopefully
why not just try to win the lane lol
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On December 28 2010 01:00 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2010 23:58 Ecael wrote:
From the opposing standpoint, there is a Yi that just takes blue buff nonstop without even considering that someone else could need it, just because he 'has a hard time'. The same Yi proceed to think that a bait is a good idea, which might be true but is riskier than you'd appreciate. If that kept up long enough, anyone is going to rage.
Shikyo is right, blue is generally better on Kass and a bait is extremely risky when people are decent and you are Yi. What's on the opposing standpoint is a yi that takes blue buff nonstop because no one ever takes it or mentions they need it.
Normally in the games with a Kassadin at mid or top(aka close by) the Yi is going to ping the blue and type "Kassadin" or something similiar, happens very often for me.
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I find lux can carry a lot better if she's fed, especially with mejai's, because you can snipe kills with your shield, even if it's just an assist, and also snipe with ulti easily.
Annie kinda needs to get in range to incinerate for example, and is often built semi tanky to have enough hp to do anything because you have low defensive capabilities early game, until flame shield is built up.
I find annie carrying is a bit more reliant on actually taking some damage from your team but still keeping enough distance after you do the initial burst of shield-->tibbers/incinerate/disintegrate that you can only be focused by somebody who commits and if they don't you keep focusing whoever is out of position. Lux meanwhile is forcing people out of position with the prison and sniping runners at low hp with ulti, but doesn't want to take any damage at all. (Annie has the shield and another stun proc which counts for a LOT)
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On December 28 2010 16:52 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 16:41 HeavOnEarth wrote:
lux> annie
-her nukes are longer range allowing her to live longer
-keeps mejai stacks easily imo
annie> lux
-she is an amazing 1v1 solo, able to shut down most ranged mid and hardly loses to any matchup mid/top.
-AoE stun
additionally, lux > annie because lux is fun to play annie > lux because lux is a bad farmer
Lux is an awesome farmer. You just have to farm differently. Using illuminate procs early and finales late game she should always always end up with a better cs than annie.
Lux also has 2 cc's on demand, annie has to charge hers. Lux can also steal buffs/dragon/baron easier than anyone else (except maybe an AP ezreal for the same reason)
Both characters fall off late game, but a decent lux still has more viability than a decent annie.
Also, RoA is an extremely efficient item and charges up your Archangels to highly efficient levels as well. I get it on all my burst casters.
Finally Lux has the ability to put off getting zhonyas until later due to her extreme range. So if it's not a viable item yet (IE: laning is going long and you're safe from ganks) it can be put off for a while. I still like getting a NLR for that one slot mega-power, but building the final item can wait until more AP is gained from other sources.
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Hm, anyone on EU who can't login? I'm stuck at "Retrieving data from server" while server status is online -.-.
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I will always rush cata on Anivia. Getting a tear on her after the cata I believe is somewhat situational based on the pace of the game. You need to grab a majai (if you are going to go this route) or finish your RoA before it moves into mid game team fights or you don't provide the burst needed to carry imo. Walls and stuns can help but the stun doesn't usually win the fight and at that level you will only have one or two ranks in wall most likely. Another reason for skipping tear is that you can easily get blue buff without any help. Just have good map awareness and go get it. That being said, I played a horrible game with Anivia with the last LP premade I was in last night lol.
Lux is the character I fall back on when I get tired of losing. Surprising burst that is fun to do, keeping your team mates alive by snaring enemies and shielding away ignite and poison ticks, and yelling PEWPEW over skype to my friend as I fire a giant fucking laser at someone is always a win. I don't know how other people build her but I go Dring>lev1 boots + mana crystal + amp tomb> Sheen & Majai's (whatever is first depending on the pace of the game)>lichbane>zonya. Finish boots whenever appropriate. The only hard counter I've found to her is an Olaf when there is no one better for him to target.
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On December 28 2010 06:08 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2010 18:11 Hynda wrote:
Sometimes it just feels good when you're on the same team as a really twat to call him out on it. Was playing a game as Yi (I'm not level 30 yet, so I'm bad and the ones I'm playing against are bad) and we had Kassadin in our team, he was our carry something he felt the need to tell everyone else every 3 minutes or so. I was regularly picking up the blue buff because I have hard time as hell playing Yi without it Kassadin snapped and went "I'M THE CARRY DO YOU UNDERSTAND, THE BLUE BUFF IS MINE" even though he had never picked it up before and I was at about my 25th of them. "I'M GOING TO AFK REST OF THE GAME, FUCKING KIDS" (oh the irony).
So he went AFK for about 10 seconds after raging, when I said that the best way to deal with a tantrum is just to ignore it.
For the rest of the game I played the bait, and it was hillarious to see Kassadin refuse to see it as a viable stratergy (Basicly just go "Look at me I'm a free kill Yi" and then have the rest of their team chase you all over the map into an ambush) After acing the other team 3 times Kassadin called me a noob and ignored me for not being serious. wow, man, no, you failed. In pub games you have to actively guide people to the correct decision (which in this case is having kassadin, the best blue character in the game, pick up the buff). If you're so passive people have to ask you to make the right play instead of the other way around you are going to be blaming your teammates for losses that were really yours for as long as you play this game.
The fact of the matter was that he had shown no intresst at all in the blue buff the entire game, and we were losing badly. I had to do something, and giving my side 15 kills without dying myself was one way of doing that. If Kassadin suddenly realises that he wants the blue buff he should have gotten it alot faster than 50 minutes into the game, I mostly picked up the other sides blue buff leaving ours open for Kassadin to take, but the one time I took the blue buff in our camp he flipped out. (And at that time he had never picked up the blue buff in our camp)
And I am fully aware of the fact that baiting blows vs anyone that knows how to play, but the fact of the matter was that I won us that game reading the situation while the high and mighty Kassadin who wanted everyone to bend around his will lead a losing side, and that felt really good.
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EPT
