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kabar
United States616 Posts
On November 10 2013 02:46 teapoted wrote: To me I think this game seems more like a collection of WC3 custom maps. Which could be fun, but it isn't a dota/lol replacement. as far as i can tell, it's not meant to be a dota/lol replacement. they're very specific about calling it a 'hero brawler'. like someone earlier in the thread said, it's more in line with blc. | ||
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teapoted
United Kingdom24425 Posts
On November 10 2013 02:51 kabar wrote: Yeah they've definitely changed their marketing line but it seems the story is still that this is a Dota-like game on most sites. Which doesn't seem very accurate to the mechanics or to what Blizzard is saying themselves.as far as i can tell, it's not meant to be a dota/lol replacement. they're very specific about calling it a 'hero brawler'. like someone earlier in the thread said, it's more in line with blc. Although Blizzard are still saying "we did xyz compared to other games in the genre." I'm sure they're happy with getting some of the Moba marketing. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
On November 10 2013 02:46 teapoted wrote: This game sounds like it has similar issues to Diablo 3. In that Blizzard didn't quite understand what made Diablo 2 good and here they don't understand what makes Dota good. I'm obviously saying this without playing it so could be completely wrong. But it sounds like they for one are taking away the singular map concept, which immediately makes it 'not a dota like game'. You cannot balance heroes around different map modes and have it be interesting at a high level, it is literally impossible unless the heroes are all incredibly generic. And if you have modes where only certain heroes are good, well that's not very fun. The second part, and I think more important thing, is that much like in WoW and Diablo they have gone away from being able to have a sense of ownership over a character. In WoW respeccing used to be quite expensive and loot was hard to get, Diablo 2 respeccing wasn't allowed and loot had to be traded or found yourself. These mechanics were removed in future version of WoW and Diablo 3 which made it so there's very few options, it makes it really boring in the long run and doesn't allow for unique builds. This is a core aspect of the replayability of a game like Dota. To me I think this game seems more like a collection of WC3 custom maps. Which could be fun, but it isn't a dota/lol replacement. you know RTS games have done it the other way round all the time. Same units on different maps. Mobas switched it up by changing Heroes not maps. Yes in Dota people master the map not the Heroes because they change them up. But both systems work and it is just preference. I am more of the old guard and prefer mastering the units and play on different maps. And it seems I will never understand the joy people have by having their heroes mixed up. But I come from a time without skill resets in games. Changing things up meant making another character from the scratch. I can understand why people are scared though that this will take over the moba market, it would be against what they prefer. But don't worry it will not take over the moba cake, but it seems very likely to take a huge slice. | ||
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Intricate
Canada127 Posts
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teapoted
United Kingdom24425 Posts
On November 10 2013 03:03 FeyFey wrote: There's a difference between different maps and different modes.you know RTS games have done it the other way round all the time. Same units on different maps. Mobas switched it up by changing Heroes not maps. Yes in Dota people master the map not the Heroes because they change them up. But both systems work and it is just preference. I am more of the old guard and prefer mastering the units and play on different maps. And it seems I will never understand the joy people have by having their heroes mixed up. But I come from a time without skill resets in games. Changing things up meant making another character from the scratch. I can understand why people are scared though that this will take over the moba market, it would be against what they prefer. But don't worry it will not take over the moba cake, but it seems very likely to take a huge slice. You can change the Dota map with similar principles and have it be a similar game with balance intact. The same as an RTS. It would be less refined, but functional. You can't change objectives and expect the same. | ||
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
I don't see any competitive future for it though. | ||
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NapkinBox
United States314 Posts
On November 10 2013 02:58 teapoted wrote: Yeah they've definitely changed their marketing line but it seems the story is still that this is a Dota-like game on most sites. Which doesn't seem very accurate to the mechanics or to what Blizzard is saying themselves. Although Blizzard are still saying "we did xyz compared to other games in the genre." I'm sure they're happy with getting some of the Moba marketing. Well, Heroes of the Storm has the characteristics of a Moba. A team based pvp with minions and towers with the goal to destroy the other team's ancients. I don't see any resemblance to BC. I dunno, but it seems to me that Blizzard is just trying to pull off a Riot and create a new genre name to hype themselves and try to avoid any comparison between Heroes and competitors. | ||
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Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
On November 10 2013 03:12 NapkinBox wrote: Well, Heroes of the Storm has the characteristics of a Moba. A team based pvp with minions and towers with the goal to destroy the other team's ancients. I don't see any resemblance to BC. I dunno, but it seems to me that Blizzard is just trying to pull off a Riot and create a new genre name to hype themselves and try to avoid any comparison between Heroes and competitors. Well... If you ask me Hero brawler is much more accurate than MOBA (which means nothing) and Dota, which is the name of the first game in the genre... Like calling FPS games "Wolfenstein 3D" - pretty dumb. | ||
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Weavel
Finland9221 Posts
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Xxio
Canada5565 Posts
On November 09 2013 17:26 Whiplash wrote: The thing I'm worried about the most in this game is how people can differentiate their selves via skill... no items, no last hits, exp while dead... does blizzard just want to make a casual game? What the hell happened? It's Blizzard's game design philosophy. | ||
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NapkinBox
United States314 Posts
On November 10 2013 03:23 Pr0wler wrote: Well... If you ask me Hero brawler is much more accurate than MOBA (which means nothing) and Dota, which is the name of the first game in the genre... Like calling FPS games "Wolfenstein 3D" - pretty dumb. Well, it does sound dumb calling a genre "Wolfenstein 3D", especially when majority of the genre has nothing to do with anything about "Wolfenstein". Defense of the Ancients (DotA), however, makes much more sense in this case. Call it as you will, I rather call the genre "DotA", but "MOBA" has pretty much solidified itself as the official name because of Riot and LoL. "Hero Brawler" is just Blizzard pulling off a Riot to advertise and hype their game. It does sounds like a fitting genre specifically for Bloodline Champions... but that's not what Heroes is. | ||
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bartmax
Uruguay4 Posts
USER EXPIERINCE: what happened to easy to learn hard to master ? this looks like a easy to everything. Doesn't look like one should have a great skill but right clicking. USER SKILL: Same happened with Heartstone. You get a complex game like Magic The Gathering, which is really competitive and casual fun to play and they made it so there's almost no strategy on Heartstone aside from the cards you get, you just easily auto pilot the game. not fun, no skill required. MECHANICS: I cannot say from the gameplay and mechanics but looks like the same. Everyone saying the same: no last hit (which isn't a good thing). XP shared, so you don't get clear if you play good or bad (which also isn't a good thing). The customization on abilities with no items looks OK but that also means no wards, no 'skill' items. I like the idea of not having damage items, the abilities customization could be great but having no wards, no tp, no healing potions means there is also no rewards on going for 'safe items' or 'risk items'. STRATEGY: It's really fun going for a rush on a particular item (or ability) that will improve your hero at the expense of being more vulnerable. If you do it right, the reward is great, if it doesn't work right, you fall behind (that's a good thing) and I don't see how this is accomplished without items. Unless, you get 'items as abilities', which would be a GREAT thing. (like an ability to place 'observer wards like or healings' on the map on certain heroes) GAME AWARENESS: Watchtowers for visibility is good but not as placing 'observers' anywhere on the map, where you can surprise your opponent. I imagine sc2 how much the observers (scout) plays a big role while watchtowers are also in place. Again, watchtowers is good, but not enough. GAME COMMUNICATION: Also a simple detail as : red hero died instead of 'red hero DIABLO dies' it's a clue to this is casual, I cannot emphasize enough the importance of which hero is doing how in sense of team play. Looks like here, doesn't care. GAME MOTIVATION: Even if casual gamers do pay the bills and I would say I'm one of those. I would not play if it isn't a competitive game. Even I don't get to pros, seeing pros, seeing the competitive scene, that's what drives ME (and probably a lot more ppl) into the game. There's no bad on not being a pro, but not been 'able to be a pro' is not a game I would be playing more than a few hours. there's no point in 'strategic decision based games' if that decision making isn't rewarding. GAME AND PLAYERS COMPARATION: I love dota and I love ending a game with 5 more levels than the rest, I love when others do that and see how they made it. Imaging playing dota and all ended up as 'the same' (because kills is not a measure when you have different roles) is no fun. I'm predicting lot of hero-killers on pubs which ends up as bad winning rates and more fun but using supports boring. You see the score screen, all level 20, you opponent level 19, one of your teammates with 20 kills, and the supports with 8 - 5 maybe with some assists... what a boring score screen for a support guy. also misleading into understand if you did good or not. LEARNABILITY: How the hell one would measure game skill ? Maybe there's other way. I don't see it clearly. GAME PLAYER IDENTITY: The customization is good if it got sense, rollerblades ? ponies ? not really good for 'this kind of heroes'. It does work for NPC, but really, who wants to play a Ghost with a merry Christmas weapon ??? The 'hilarious' should be already in the heroe, like alchemist or tinker on dota, they looks great, they are hilarious, but they are not intenteded to look like a serious heroe from the beginning. Having huskar or bloodseeker on a roller would be plain stupid, same as having enchantress with a bazooka. (I'm forward to see witch doctor with fun totems, because I except him to have totems, but definitely not a spice girl companion.) I'm really interested on other thought about this, actually hope someone can give me light into seeing it differently. I really want this game to be THE game. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On November 10 2013 03:07 Kipsate wrote: Doesn't seem to have a lot of in common do with Dota or LoL and maybe that is a good thing. Pretty much what I was thinking. I can see myself playing this for fun a bit from time to time, like I do with LoL. I really can't see myself really getting into it though on a DOTA2 type level. Not with heroes having to be purchased. | ||
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Copymizer
Denmark2087 Posts
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bartmax
Uruguay4 Posts
This game is *initially* set for those who doesn't. (not necessarily a bad thing), so for competitive players it's hard to see the reasons behind the game, but actually doing this way, they can 'adjust' for competitive later on (if it's not too late) but almost impossible to make the other way around. (too early to say). From the 'unlock heroes' perspective. I think it's a good thing, if it's doing like (easy to use unlocked and hard to use heroes locked.) In Dota, when you want to get out of the 'standard initial heroes' you have to pick one non-standard. You'll be ok if you get alchemist but you will be frustrated if you get invoker, batrider or meepo. So if they have the unlock as a 'learning curve' and not as a 'impossible to get' I think I may work great. Still, there are other ways to make this better and let you choose ANY heroe. I like how has been done in SC2, 50 games you play in slower speed, with blocks the expansion, etc. Leveling the playfield is something blizzard does it REALLY GOOD and that's a invisible but really important bonus to this kind of game. | ||
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Witten
United States2094 Posts
Cause I mean, Zeratul being visible 100% of the time is kind of the opposite of what Zeratul is. | ||
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clik
United States319 Posts
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AndyJay
Australia833 Posts
On November 10 2013 04:48 Witten wrote: I'm assuming now that there couldn't possibly be Zeratul or any other cloaking abilities in this game because, without earning gold or buying items, how would you detect them? Assuming that towers would be detectors any cloaked heroes could just camp the opponents jungle or wherever vision doesn't exist to get free kills. Cause I mean, Zeratul being visible 100% of the time is kind of the opposite of what Zeratul is. There's ways around this, namely short term buffs and invisibility that's broken by attacking. I do agree with the general consensus though that taking items out of the game might simplify that game too much. This could be made up in a mechanics fashion, like how Super Smash Brothers has no items (well...) but complex mechanics, but that's been really simplified as well. What you're left with might be almost a turn based game in pacing and where you know the outcome of pretty much every fight because optimal play is so straightforward. | ||
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AndyJay
Australia833 Posts
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Gorlin
United States2753 Posts
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