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Well I think a lot of you are forgetting the meta. Due to recent nerfs and the removal of resurgence, single warrior comps are the thing now. So, you run 1 warrior, 1 support, 2 assassins, and you have more space for a flex pick like Tassadar. It's okay that his damage isn't what it used to be because you still have 2 dps. Likewise, the other utility he brings to the table becomes a lot more important.
Running single warrior, the shield from Tassadar becomes a lot more important because there is more damage in the meta and less warriors to buffer it. His shield gives you a "heal" that can't over heal and is upfront and instant. It's also a plus that they fixed healing ward so that it doesn't randomly die to AoE anymore.
The other thing is with less warriors and more squishies, your job as a traditional support is a lot harder. Peeling is also a lot harder. Tassadar helps support the support and he's a hero that you don't have to worry about because he is unkillable and can take care of himself.
And then you have the other perks like Oracle. What you have to also remember is Stitches is the top warrior now and Oracle makes the threat of getting hooked exponentially higher. The vision in general is also really useful with how gank heavy comps are with the increase in DPS and the return of Kerrigan (who has been back for a while to be fair).
His Archon ult is also still really good even with the nerf. And with the way competitive games work, it's about big engagements and you will have your ult ready for it with the way they manage their CDs. He also doesn't lose a beat from the removal of resurgence because his ult upgrade at 20 is still an amazing pick.
On top of that, Tassadar can also pick up mule which is even more useful now with the fixed AI (it's still stupid at times unfortunately) and the addition of another map with a base siege objective.
He does all this while still bringing decent ranged AoE damage and great wave clear.
So yea, I can understand rating Tassadar high in this meta. He's basically the top pick to round out a team.
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Tass is easily top tier right now in competitive play and is either banned or picked in the 1st round of picks almost every time.
Mind you this is in a scenario where Tychus is still global banned, but I am pretty confident even if Tychus gets hotfixed Tass will stay there.
Healing Ward is pretty good.
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On January 20 2015 13:28 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2015 12:49 deth2munkies wrote:On January 20 2015 11:24 Brian333 wrote:On January 20 2015 04:21 xDaunt wrote:Check out Zuna and idream's new tier list here. Note where Thrall is on both. The other interesting change is Tyrael. I don't quite get why he'd be suddenly ranked higher as a consequence of resurgence being removed. He has always been my main tank, and I still liked him even post judgment nerf. And look how high Tassadar is ranked as a ranged carry on idream's list! Because as a warrior, Tyrael is better. His level 20 ult upgrade for judgement is more useful than the level 20 options the other warriors have. Shorter CD and more range on Judgement is actually pretty good. The same reason why Stitches is generally regarded as better than Arthas now because he has Blink at 20 and Blink >>>>>>>>> the garbage Arthas has at 20. It's also why some even put Muradin at the same level as Arthas now. And, as for Thrall, his burst healing only happens if he lands a WF combo. A CL only gives him 3 passive stacks and while a single passive proc is still a substantial heal, it's not anything special. The issue is the 10 stacks a WF gives double procs his passive. But back to the point of assassins, yea, they all get blown up if focused. The issue is they have escapes. What people who cry about imbalance are missing is that rather than using an escape to back and wait for healing, Thrall relies on his passive to weather the storm and give his support more leeway. It's not that different from Illidan who relies on defensive talents + his passive life return to stay in the fight and has to exercise similar judgement in engaging (not coincidentally, he's also great at taking mercs). While WF can be used as an escape you can't use it to both deal damage and escape, it's one or the other before level 16. Even at 16, you need to land the WF hits to reset the CD. If something CCs you and wipes WF, you're basically out there naked in a blizzard. Regardless of all that, it's not on the level of Vault, Blink, escape Meta, Dimensional Shift, or Barrel roll that ignores collision. He needs something to make up for that especially since he's melee. His passive synergy is that something. You can tweak the numbers but doing so will easily turn him into another Illidan -- good in the hands of an elite player and utter garbage in the hands of 95% of people. It'd be nice to actually get assassins who are strong enough to break up the meta of top pick Valla and Tychus with Falstad shortly thereafter nearly every game. And I don't know, but the reasoning behind a lot of tier placements on lists is easily justifiable and understandable. Tassadar on iDream's list is understandable, Tyrael moving up, Uther moving down, etc. Tassadar is damn near impossible to kill, but other than that he doesn't do very much. He basically has a nerfed version of Tychus's ult and a support kit. Other than them deciding to sit in Psi-storm forever, his damage is negligible. Add to that the build that he has on that tier list involves his E talents over damage talents and you have basically a Twilight Archon's worth of damage before you're useless. Tassadar is a good hybrid support, but I wouldn't rely upon him for DPS. In fact, his damage is quite bad before level 16 when he gets double storm.
Which is why tiering him as an assassin somehow makes sense?
Tassadar currently is the jack of all trades master of none. His E makes him impossible to kill, he has support talents like Mule and Healing Ward and his Shield to protect allies, but it's much weaker than any of the other support options in the game. His Psi Storm does little without range and double storm upgrades, and his Archon is his only source of reliable damage. Not to mention his mild mana problems.
The point is: you can spec him as a support and he'll be a mediocre support, you can spec him as a damage dealer and he'll be a mediocre damage dealer. If you try to spec him in between, he does next to nothing. There's no real room in the meta for a hybrid, and you're almost always better getting someone who does one thing well than two things just OK.
EDIT: To clarify - this is in the context of iDream's tier list putting Tassadar as the 2nd ranked Assassin. If anything, he should be in a tier by himself and be top of T3 or bottom of T2 on a 5 tier list.
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I'll take some things I've said back. I actually like how the daily quests stack. I'd prefer them to stack a bit higher, even, but this way it's still nice that i can somewhat play when I feel like it and don't have to do so every single day if I don't feel like it.
Anyway, what's the most powerful physical autoattack damage-based melee hero currently?
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Mexico2170 Posts
some of your concerns are valid (like, i guess the one where you throw games to get money faster is valid, but jst makes you a very toxic player lol, and it isn't much more faster), some of then will be adressed and some or them are just like, first player impressions.
Now, about your question, i guess with pysical you mean meele? in that case thrall withouth a doubt, altough maybe its like cheating because he uses windfury, a skill, to make his 3 next basic atacks faster, if you don't like that i think illidan is the second best, altough he is hard to use and somewhat situational (team dependant).
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Tychus is only banned in tournaments and not on ladder, isn't he?
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Caldeum1977 Posts
On January 20 2015 15:33 Hildegard wrote:
Tychus is only banned in tournaments and not on ladder, isn't he?
Correct, there are no bans on the ranked ladder.
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On January 20 2015 15:39 Valiver wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2015 15:33 Hildegard wrote:
Tychus is only banned in tournaments and not on ladder, isn't he? Correct, there are no bans on the ranked ladder.
So right now ladder matches are pretty much "get Tychus first", but the bug also makes it easy to play badly (like trying to push a tower and overextending or not moving back while Q is up.
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On January 20 2015 14:51 [SXG]Phantom wrote:
some of your concerns are valid (like, i guess the one where you throw games to get money faster is valid, but jst makes you a very toxic player lol, and it isn't much more faster), some of then will be adressed and some or them are just like, first player impressions.
Now, about your question, i guess with pysical you mean meele? in that case thrall withouth a doubt, altough maybe its like cheating because he uses windfury, a skill, to make his 3 next basic atacks faster, if you don't like that i think illidan is the second best, altough he is hard to use and somewhat situational (team dependant).
It's the system's fault, not the player's. If the fastest way to gain gold is by throwing games as fast as possible, the game itself needs to be fixed. I always try to optimize whatever I'm doing, gold gain included. Also, that's not what "toxic" is. I never have flamed anyone in HotS.
Guess it's Thrall without a doubt, eh? But how likely is he to get nerfed in near future? 10k is a steep price to pay for temporary fun. Illidan seems like a much safer investment, and feels like a high skillcap hero.
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On January 20 2015 07:47 xDaunt wrote:
I think tier lists are interesting conversation pieces for gauging the meta. Believe me, I don't take them as gospel for the relative strengths of heroes.
Here's my list, with no particular intra-tier order being implied:
Thrall Tier
Thrall
Tier 1
Uther, Brightwing, Zeratul, Stitches, Tychus
Tier 2
Valla, Arthas, Muradin, Tyrael, Tassadar
Tier 3
Falstad, Nazeebo, Kerrigan, Furion, Hammer, Lili, Rehgar, Raynor, Zagara, Chen, Anub, Nova, Good Illidans, Azmodan
Tier 4
Abathur (so sad), Tyrande, ETC, Sonya, Murky (good Murky's keep him out of the basement), Gazlowe, Jaina
Tier 5
Diablo, Bad Illidans
The top 2 tiers are heroes that really can control a game for their teams, with tier 1 heroes doing it better than anyone not named Thrall. Tier 3 has solid heroes, but none are particularly gamebreaking. Tier 4 has the generally underpowered heroes (though I think Gazlowe is an exception depending upon maps). Tier 5 is the shit tier.
That's a decent list. I still don't think Thrall is that high, in this list he is tier 2 I think. He is just solid but not as great as the tier 1 because he can be countered by just picking enough disables as the other team.
For the rest i'd drop lots of stuff from tier 3 to tier 4. Most of the heroes in there are often playable and quite good but Azmodan, Lili, Raynor, Anub and Nova just fall in the never playable tier 4/5 right now. They are just outclassed by other heroes that do the same things but better.
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On January 20 2015 18:09 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2015 07:47 xDaunt wrote:
I think tier lists are interesting conversation pieces for gauging the meta. Believe me, I don't take them as gospel for the relative strengths of heroes.
Here's my list, with no particular intra-tier order being implied:
Thrall Tier
Thrall
Tier 1
Uther, Brightwing, Zeratul, Stitches, Tychus
Tier 2
Valla, Arthas, Muradin, Tyrael, Tassadar
Tier 3
Falstad, Nazeebo, Kerrigan, Furion, Hammer, Lili, Rehgar, Raynor, Zagara, Chen, Anub, Nova, Good Illidans, Azmodan
Tier 4
Abathur (so sad), Tyrande, ETC, Sonya, Murky (good Murky's keep him out of the basement), Gazlowe, Jaina
Tier 5
Diablo, Bad Illidans
The top 2 tiers are heroes that really can control a game for their teams, with tier 1 heroes doing it better than anyone not named Thrall. Tier 3 has solid heroes, but none are particularly gamebreaking. Tier 4 has the generally underpowered heroes (though I think Gazlowe is an exception depending upon maps). Tier 5 is the shit tier. That's a decent list. I still don't think Thrall is that high, in this list he is tier 2 I think. He is just solid but not as great as the tier 1 because he can be countered by just picking enough disables as the other team. For the rest i'd drop lots of stuff from tier 3 to tier 4. Most of the heroes in there are often playable and quite good but Azmodan, Lili, Raynor, Anub and Nova just fall in the never playable tier 4/5 right now. They are just outclassed by other heroes that do the same things but better.
Seems to me that if you have to change your whole team comp to counter one hero, he should be higher than tier 2.
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On January 20 2015 18:09 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2015 07:47 xDaunt wrote:
I think tier lists are interesting conversation pieces for gauging the meta. Believe me, I don't take them as gospel for the relative strengths of heroes.
Here's my list, with no particular intra-tier order being implied:
Thrall Tier
Thrall
Tier 1
Uther, Brightwing, Zeratul, Stitches, Tychus
Tier 2
Valla, Arthas, Muradin, Tyrael, Tassadar
Tier 3
Falstad, Nazeebo, Kerrigan, Furion, Hammer, Lili, Rehgar, Raynor, Zagara, Chen, Anub, Nova, Good Illidans, Azmodan
Tier 4
Abathur (so sad), Tyrande, ETC, Sonya, Murky (good Murky's keep him out of the basement), Gazlowe, Jaina
Tier 5
Diablo, Bad Illidans
The top 2 tiers are heroes that really can control a game for their teams, with tier 1 heroes doing it better than anyone not named Thrall. Tier 3 has solid heroes, but none are particularly gamebreaking. Tier 4 has the generally underpowered heroes (though I think Gazlowe is an exception depending upon maps). Tier 5 is the shit tier. That's a decent list. I still don't think Thrall is that high, in this list he is tier 2 I think. He is just solid but not as great as the tier 1 because he can be countered by just picking enough disables as the other team. For the rest i'd drop lots of stuff from tier 3 to tier 4. Most of the heroes in there are often playable and quite good but Azmodan, Lili, Raynor, Anub and Nova just fall in the never playable tier 4/5 right now. They are just outclassed by other heroes that do the same things but better.
I think Azmodan is much better than people give him credit for. The utility that he brings is very impressive. Again, I'm of the opinion that heroes don't have to be ace teamfighters to be "useful."
I agree that Raynor and Anub are outclassed by other heroes, but such is the case with everyone in tier 3. I still think that they're both playable, although I've decided Raynor players are probably the worst subset of HotS players as a whole.
As for Lili, I keep seeing her as a very popular pick in games, and I just don't see her really holding the team back. Yes, there are better supports (Brightwing, Uther, Tassadar), but that's why they're ranked higher. Regardless of them being better, Lili is still a competent pick.
Nova is still a hero killing machine. I personally don't like her, but she does her one job well enough (and it's an important job) to be tier 3. Again, Zeratul is clearly the better pick for the extra utility that he brings.
The other hero that may need to be reevaluated is Rehgar. With these double assassin / ranged heavy comps becoming popular, I think Rehgar is going to become a stronger pick either as a lone support or as a utility pick. His totem is very useful helping melee comps engage.
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People overlook the sheer amount of healing Lili can do. The Dragon/KFH build is FotM because it puts up big damage numbers, but it has the same problem as W Valla: damage is light and split among 5 people, so an enemy Brightwing can negate most of it. Once people realize that you can have a CLEANSE and MS BUFF on a 3 second CD, they'll realize she's actually quite the healer.
People also overlook Blinding Wind and how much 2 misses can make a difference, especially to on-hit guys like Valla and offensive Tassadar and Tychus while ulting.
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After the few weeks i`m in, heroes are getting quite interesting.
Wasn`t able to play a lot, but the few hero rotations i`ve taken part in, were getting better and better.
I somehow have the feeling that some maps are more polished than others, sound wise. If they get as good as haunted mines, that would be awesome! (no complaint) 
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On January 21 2015 00:55 Striker.superfreunde wrote:After the few weeks i`m in, heroes are getting quite interesting. Wasn`t able to play a lot, but the few hero rotations i`ve taken part in, were getting better and better. I somehow have the feeling that some maps are more polished than others, sound wise. If they get as good as haunted mines, that would be awesome! (no complaint)
When you get better, you'll learn to dislike Haunted Mines the most.
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On January 21 2015 00:48 deth2munkies wrote:
People overlook the sheer amount of healing Lili can do. The Dragon/KFH build is FotM because it puts up big damage numbers, but it has the same problem as W Valla: damage is light and split among 5 people, so an enemy Brightwing can negate most of it. Once people realize that you can have a CLEANSE and MS BUFF on a 3 second CD, they'll realize she's actually quite the healer.
People also overlook Blinding Wind and how much 2 misses can make a difference, especially to on-hit guys like Valla and offensive Tassadar and Tychus while ulting.
I've been leveling up Lili and I'm growing to like her quite a bit. Her passive makes her much more difficult to kill than Brightwing and I personally find her jugs ult nuts. I've been going full on support with her. I can't put out quite the same healing numbers as my Brightwing but it feels like this healing is more meaningful throughout the game.
http://www.heroesfire.com/hots/talent-calculator/li-li#gRCD
This is the build but the cool part about her is I could see a number of builds work
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On January 21 2015 01:09 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 00:48 deth2munkies wrote:
People overlook the sheer amount of healing Lili can do. The Dragon/KFH build is FotM because it puts up big damage numbers, but it has the same problem as W Valla: damage is light and split among 5 people, so an enemy Brightwing can negate most of it. Once people realize that you can have a CLEANSE and MS BUFF on a 3 second CD, they'll realize she's actually quite the healer.
People also overlook Blinding Wind and how much 2 misses can make a difference, especially to on-hit guys like Valla and offensive Tassadar and Tychus while ulting. I've been leveling up Lili and I'm growing to like her quite a bit. Her passive makes her much more difficult to kill than Brightwing and I personally find her jugs ult nuts. I've been going full on support with her. I can't put out quite the same healing numbers as my Brightwing but it feels like this healing is more meaningful throughout the game. http://www.heroesfire.com/hots/talent-calculator/li-li#gRCDThis is the build but the cool part about her is I could see a number of builds work
I like Mass Vortex and Gale Force as I believe she doesn't have that many mana issues and the rest of the talents in those tiers are just worse. It also gives her a bit of early game punch and Mass Vortex is just necessary in later teamfights so you can blind the entire team.
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I'd probably not talent for healing ward if people were a bit better about destroying it. But if I don't make it super obvious I've dropped it the ward can often times time out. But like I was saying she seems to be in a good spot talent wise where you can pick certain talents depending on the enemy team comp and how the enemies are engaging. She is still behind BW and Uther in my opinion but she isn't as bad as many streamers make her out to be.
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Yeah, those are all reasons why I don't understand the Lili hate. She may not have the utility of Brightwing and Uther, but she is really fucking good as a pure support who heals and protects her teammates.
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Another major drawback to her versus the top supports is the wave clear. Uther and BW are both decent (not great) but Lili's waveclear is abysmal. At least the way I build her. Maybe better with 4 target E.
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EPT
