EPTIt's a 3/2 for 4 that basically draws you two cheap cards. That's solid on value, and the 3/2 stat distribution is pretty excellent for killing things both on and off curve. The individual cards are all only the slightest bit under par (they generally should have a very slightly better effect) and are playable in basically any situation. They often tend to get you a little card advantage, either by straight-up drawing or by killing something or letting a minion trade up. Moreover, the cards cost such a small amount that they can easily activate Combo, smoothing out Rogue plays by a ton. They also work brilliantly with Auctioneer and Violet Teacher, just continuing to make everything so much easier for the class. And just one more time, you get two of these. Imagine getting two of the drawing ones: you play this guy on 4, Violet Teacher and draw on five, and then... well, something on six. But you get to dig through two cards in your deck, for a class that's devoted to digging, or else kill minions or stack tons of damage or else protect your valuable minions or else get multiple battlecry effects, and all in the class that wants these effects possibly the most out of any class. This card isn't going to open up new horizons for Rogue, not by any means, but just by putting him in a deck, you're going to ensure that any Rogue gameplan that you might lay out is going to go much better. All in all, I'm pretty damn hyped for this card and just hope the Rogue nerfs aren't too severe.
New Expansion: Whispers of the Old Gods - Page 34
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
It's a 3/2 for 4 that basically draws you two cheap cards. That's solid on value, and the 3/2 stat distribution is pretty excellent for killing things both on and off curve. The individual cards are all only the slightest bit under par (they generally should have a very slightly better effect) and are playable in basically any situation. They often tend to get you a little card advantage, either by straight-up drawing or by killing something or letting a minion trade up. Moreover, the cards cost such a small amount that they can easily activate Combo, smoothing out Rogue plays by a ton. They also work brilliantly with Auctioneer and Violet Teacher, just continuing to make everything so much easier for the class. And just one more time, you get two of these. Imagine getting two of the drawing ones: you play this guy on 4, Violet Teacher and draw on five, and then... well, something on six. But you get to dig through two cards in your deck, for a class that's devoted to digging, or else kill minions or stack tons of damage or else protect your valuable minions or else get multiple battlecry effects, and all in the class that wants these effects possibly the most out of any class. This card isn't going to open up new horizons for Rogue, not by any means, but just by putting him in a deck, you're going to ensure that any Rogue gameplan that you might lay out is going to go much better. All in all, I'm pretty damn hyped for this card and just hope the Rogue nerfs aren't too severe. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13990 Posts
On March 26 2016 10:03 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: you should check the thread before posting :p It looks like a BM card, you play it and if your opponent still looses he is gonna be like "Damn he beats me while having tentacles for arms" RIP. For some reason i didn't see it... | ||
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FirstProbe
1206 Posts
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On March 26 2016 13:17 FirstProbe wrote: For some reason everyone continues to look at the toxins purely as an adjunct for Gadgetzan. While it may work best that way, I'm hoping it'll work towards a control rogue type archtype, in conjunction with some of the other new cards such as undercity huckster. You and me both, it's an archtype I've wanted for Rogue since the beginning. | ||
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Drazerk
United Kingdom31255 Posts
A) Not every card has to be tier 1 competitive B) Its consistent damage and thats hard to balance C) Headcrack was OP at 2 mana but at 3 mana no one plays it and this card had the same issue during balancing | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On March 26 2016 14:14 Drazerk wrote: Ben Brode just went into length on his stream about why Tentacles for arms is so bad A) Not every card has to be tier 1 competitive B) Its consistent damage and thats hard to balance C) Headcrack was OP at 2 mana but at 3 mana no one plays it and this card had the same issue during balancing Well, he really described why it didn't need to be good, not why it was bad. It looks bad, and it might be, but it's really not something we've had the chance to play with before. It could surprise us, you don't know. | ||
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Wuster
1974 Posts
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Advantageous
China1350 Posts
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Advantageous
China1350 Posts
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Sajaki
Canada1135 Posts
On March 26 2016 11:32 Acritter wrote: Xaril is so fucking neat. I mean, let's look at it. It's a 3/2 for 4 that basically draws you two cheap cards. That's solid on value, and the 3/2 stat distribution is pretty excellent for killing things both on and off curve. A 3/2 for 4 mana is abysmal. It trades terribly with almost everything in the game. It can kill very few 4 drops in the game, only really defender of argus, houndmaster, kor'kron and a few others. Most of these minions already got their values if they are on the field, and the likelihood that you get to actually make an attack with Xaril is pretty low as its restrictive 2 HP means it dies to almost anything. Its body is so overpriced and bad that considering this card when it comes to tempo in any way is probably a mistake. It should only really considered as a value card, but it should be noted that it is a very expensive card its poisons do not come cheap. The individual cards are all only the slightest bit under par (they generally should have a very slightly better effect) and are playable in basically any situation. They often tend to get you a little card advantage, either by straight-up drawing or by killing something or letting a minion trade up. Moreover, the cards cost such a small amount that they can easily activate Combo, smoothing out Rogue plays by a ton The poisons are interesting. Are they worth 1 mana? I would personally say yes. But they are not one mana because a 3/2 is not in any dimension worth 4 mana. You pay for the poisons twice. A 3/2 is worth 2 mana so you are paying 2 more mana for two cards, each which are only worth 1ish mana a piece, but you still have to pay 1 additional mana for each of them on cast. It's distributed like overload, but in reverse (so the exact opposite of tempo). In total, the "Xeril Package" consists of a 3/2 and 2 spells worth approx. 1 mana for 6. Value in terms of cards, since the package only costs 1 cardslot and that is certainly worth something, but its not value in terms of a discount or anything. It's not a bargain or a deal, its more of an investment for later turns. They also work brilliantly with Auctioneer and Violet Teacher, just continuing to make everything so much easier for the class. And just one more time, you get two of these. Imagine getting two of the drawing ones: you play this guy on 4, Violet Teacher and draw on five, and then... well, something on six. But you get to dig through two cards in your deck, for a class that's devoted to digging, or else kill minions or stack tons of damage or else protect your valuable minions or else get multiple battlecry effects, and all in the class that wants these effects possibly the most out of any class. It does synergize very well with the above-mentioned cards. However, I'd actually say that it needs that synergy to simply break even. I don't think this card should be considered in sprint rogue. Cycling the poisons with auctioneer is like the only way this card can make up for the terrible hit you take in tempo by simply playing it in the first 6 turns of a game. You also don't get to dig by default, digging is completely dependant on getting auctioneer, and poisons aren't free either. You likely could have had a more impressive turn with auctioneer with other rogue spells. To me, the ideal situation with this card is to get it later in the game (I don’t think you could ever justify not mulliganing it vs. literally any class), getting its two spells and cycling them both with auctioneer the following turn to refill your hand. It's a pretty specific and limited scenario. Any turn before 6~ I think you'd be better off with a Polluted Hoarder (digs faster/more consistently/no circumstantial requirements. It even trades better! And that says a lot…). As a side note I think mage would actually make better use out of this card than rogue thanks to antonidas, having less draw innately and caring more about the boardstate and its minions. In summary, I think it's too slow to see play in a tempo-oriented meta, because the minion is weak and overcosted. In a slower, value oriented meta it might be good enough but its hard to say. If the card was added to the game tomorrow I don’t think it would see play in even half of the maly or oil decks after a few test runs. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
Stand Against Darkness for us, but there has to be bad cards for there to be good cards I guess. | ||
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Penlievskiov
Netherlands0 Posts
On March 26 2016 09:48 Cricketer12 wrote: https://twitter.com/LiquidSjow/status/713488739037802496?lang=sv Sjow just released his card Warrior Weapon 5 Mana 2/2 Deathrattle: This card returns to your hand. I feel like it will be used if tank up warrior if 100% of ladder (to gain slight edge in fatigue game) and literally in no other circumstance. Idd, you gain the Hunter hero power on top of the tank up in fatigue but you can't play Elise if you play this. Well, you can but you have to have the weapon equipped when you play the monkey. I'd probably just play Elise. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On March 26 2016 17:08 Sajaki wrote: When Xaril was revealed I was quite hyped about it, but as I thought about it throughout the day the internal hype died and I began to dislike – even resent – the card. So I'm going to rant about it for a while. Not at you, but at the card. A 3/2 for 4 mana is abysmal. It trades terribly with almost everything in the game. It can kill very few 4 drops in the game, only really defender of argus, houndmaster, kor'kron and a few others. Most of these minions already got their values if they are on the field, and the likelihood that you get to actually make an attack with Xaril is pretty low as its restrictive 2 HP means it dies to almost anything. Its body is so overpriced and bad that considering this card when it comes to tempo in any way is probably a mistake. It should only really considered as a value card, but it should be noted that it is a very expensive card its poisons do not come cheap. The poisons are interesting. Are they worth 1 mana? I would personally say yes. But they are not one mana because a 3/2 is not in any dimension worth 4 mana. You pay for the poisons twice. A 3/2 is worth 2 mana so you are paying 2 more mana for two cards, each which are only worth 1ish mana a piece, but you still have to pay 1 additional mana for each of them on cast. It's distributed like overload, but in reverse (so the exact opposite of tempo). In total, the "Xeril Package" consists of a 3/2 and 2 spells worth approx. 1 mana for 6. Value in terms of cards, since the package only costs 1 cardslot and that is certainly worth something, but its not value in terms of a discount or anything. It's not a bargain or a deal, its more of an investment for later turns. It does synergize very well with the above-mentioned cards. However, I'd actually say that it needs that synergy to simply break even. I don't think this card should be considered in sprint rogue. Cycling the poisons with auctioneer is like the only way this card can make up for the terrible hit you take in tempo by simply playing it in the first 6 turns of a game. You also don't get to dig by default, digging is completely dependant on getting auctioneer, and poisons aren't free either. You likely could have had a more impressive turn with auctioneer with other rogue spells. To me, the ideal situation with this card is to get it later in the game (I don’t think you could ever justify not mulliganing it vs. literally any class), getting its two spells and cycling them both with auctioneer the following turn to refill your hand. It's a pretty specific and limited scenario. Any turn before 6~ I think you'd be better off with a Polluted Hoarder (digs faster/more consistently/no circumstantial requirements. It even trades better! And that says a lot…). As a side note I think mage would actually make better use out of this card than rogue thanks to antonidas, having less draw innately and caring more about the boardstate and its minions. In summary, I think it's too slow to see play in a tempo-oriented meta, because the minion is weak and overcosted. In a slower, value oriented meta it might be good enough but its hard to say. If the card was added to the game tomorrow I don’t think it would see play in even half of the maly or oil decks after a few test runs. You might be underrating the card. If we consider that the spare parts are all 1 mana value(A few of them aren't and then there's shadow step which might be worth far more in the right situation), card draw has to be considered. If we look at Loot Hoarder and Gnomish Inventor, we find that drawing a card is worth around 2 stat points for deathrattle and 3 for battlecry. So now we get 5 stat points of value, which means that this card would be equal to a 4 mana 5-6 in value. Of course, it would be poor tempo and we also have to realize that these cards aren't as good as just pure "draw a card" cards would be(ShadowStep might be an exception in combo decks and with SI:7 etc.) but a 4 mana 3-2 that had "battlecry: draw a card" and "deathrattle: draw a card" would be considered extremely good, wouldn't it? It has just 1 stat point less than Gnomish Inventor at 4 mana, after all, and would draw an additional card. | ||
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Drazerk
United Kingdom31255 Posts
Other points from the stream compiled to one thread | ||
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Sajaki
Canada1135 Posts
On March 26 2016 17:43 Shikyo wrote: You might be underrating the card. If we consider that the spare parts are all 1 mana value(A few of them aren't and then there's shadow step which might be worth far more in the right situation), card draw has to be considered. If we look at Loot Hoarder and Gnomish Inventor, we find that drawing a card is worth around 2 stat points for deathrattle and 3 for battlecry. So now we get 5 stat points of value, which means that this card would be equal to a 4 mana 5-6 in value. Of course, it would be poor tempo and we also have to realize that these cards aren't as good as just pure "draw a card" cards would be(ShadowStep might be an exception in combo decks and with SI:7 etc.) but a 4 mana 3-2 that had "battlecry: draw a card" and "deathrattle: draw a card" would be considered extremely good, wouldn't it? It has just 1 stat point less than Gnomish Inventor at 4 mana, after all, and would draw an additional card. I could be underrating it. I actually hope that I am and that it turns out to be awesome. However... I find it interesting when people say things like drawing a spare part is even comparable to drawing a card. They do not draw a card. They generate a card. Its actually a distinction that's worth noting because drawing cards in some decks is much, much better than generating cards, and vice versa. Generating: Value oriented. Creating resources out of nothing. Ideal in fatigue decks but a fatigue gameplan isn't required for generation to be good. Drawing: Thinning the deck. Getting closer to your answers, your win condition or your safety nets. Rogue has traditionally never really cared about the value gameplan. Every successful archetype has been about surviving, then drawing a ton to get to the wincon. Generating cards does NOT equal anything close to drawing in traditional rogue. So comparing draw poisons to draw real cards is simply not doing justice to real cards. 2 poisons (while vastly superior to spare parts) are just not anything near draw-2 for rogue. Yes, there are some specific instances, like overcosted shadowstep on an SI or stealth on a gadgetzan where the poisons themselves can get good value. The card definitely has potential. But does it's potential justify playing it, because there's certainly a cost attached. Also the only class to utilize spare parts well is Mage and that's largely due to antonidas. Also spare part minions all have respectable stats on their own, and this little guy does not. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On March 26 2016 18:41 Sajaki wrote: I could be underrating it. I actually hope that I am and that it turns out to be awesome. However... I find it interesting when people say things like drawing a spare part is even comparable to drawing a card. They do not draw a card. They generate a card. Its actually a distinction that's worth noting because drawing cards in some decks is much, much better than generating cards, and vice versa. Generating: Value oriented. Creating resources out of nothing. Ideal in fatigue decks but a fatigue gameplan isn't required for generation to be good. Drawing: Thinning the deck. Getting closer to your answers, your win condition or your safety nets. Rogue has traditionally never really cared about the value gameplan. Every successful archetype has been about surviving, then drawing a ton to get to the wincon. Generating cards does NOT equal anything close to drawing in traditional rogue. So comparing draw poisons to draw real cards is simply not doing justice to real cards. 2 poisons (while vastly superior to spare parts) are just not anything near draw-2 for rogue. Yes, there are some specific instances, like overcosted shadowstep on an SI or stealth on a gadgetzan where the poisons themselves can get good value. The card definitely has potential. But does it's potential justify playing it, because there's certainly a cost attached. Also the only class to utilize spare parts well is Mage and that's largely due to antonidas. Also spare part minions all have respectable stats on their own, and this little guy does not. That's certainly true but here we need to realize that the toxins aren't like spare parts(Even though I'll probably call them spare parts for a long time) because they actually generally have the strength of an actual card. A 1 mana 2 damage spell is an actual card like Arcane Shot and Holy Smite, +3 attack is a Blessing of Might and while neither of them are exactly premium cards, the truth remains that the reason they aren't played is that they generally aren't worth the card slot, not that the effect they have isn't good or worthwhile. It's kind of like how Dark Peddler functions and having a 40% chance to draw a Holy Smite or a Blessing of Might off that would be incredible in certain types of decks, and it's not like the rest of the toxins apart form perhaps the stealth one are terrible. The Shadow Step one might even function as a 2 hp heal that deals 2 damage for 2 mana if you combine it with SI:7 Agent. It definitely isn't the fastest card and isn't good for immediate tempo, but it certainly is a value card and it has potential for what I'd call "delayed tempo" in that it can give you a Holy Smite or Blessing of Might or +1 mana ShadowStep that are cards that can swing the tempo back in your favor during later turns. And really, if you have the your hand full of removal with cards like Backstab, SI:7 Agent, Shadowstep, immediate tempo isn't even that important because you can have a very impactful swing turn soon enough. | ||
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Penlievskiov
Netherlands0 Posts
On March 26 2016 18:53 Shikyo wrote: That's certainly true but here we need to realize that the toxins aren't like spare parts(Even though I'll probably call them spare parts for a long time) because they actually generally have the strength of an actual card. A 1 mana 2 damage spell is an actual card like Arcane Shot and Holy Smite, +3 attack is a Blessing of Might and while neither of them are exactly premium cards, the truth remains that the reason they aren't played is that they generally aren't worth the card slot, not that the effect they have isn't good or worthwhile. It's kind of like how Dark Peddler functions and having a 40% chance to draw a Holy Smite or a Blessing of Might off that would be incredible in certain types of decks, and it's not like the rest of the toxins apart form perhaps the stealth one are terrible. The Shadow Step one might even function as a 2 hp heal that deals 2 damage for 2 mana if you combine it with SI:7 Agent. It definitely isn't the fastest card and isn't good for immediate tempo, but it certainly is a value card and it has potential for what I'd call "delayed tempo" in that it can give you a Holy Smite or Blessing of Might or +1 mana ShadowStep that are cards that can swing the tempo back in your favor during later turns. And really, if you have the your hand full of removal with cards like Backstab, SI:7 Agent, Shadowstep, immediate tempo isn't even that important because you can have a very impactful swing turn soon enough. And it's a nice Raptor target as well | ||
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Origence
Spain0 Posts
Just looking the card is a bad legendary but looking the whole picture is not a bad card for the game. | ||
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Hellonslaught
Brazil0 Posts
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Slydie
1929 Posts
Why? Your opponent plays too. Turn 4 is a very crucial turn, marking the transition from earlygame to midgame. This was even the case when Yeti and Sen'jin were the staples. This card is horribly weak on turn 4, and will die to any piece of shit your opponent has left over. Then he can slam is 4-drop and get massively ahead going into the midgame. The "value" and "combos" yatayata... NO! The tempo loss is simply way too big, and the "value plays" are too weak, too slow or both. | ||
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