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On April 22 2016 19:33 Schelim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 18:26 Roblin wrote:
ok lets be honest, blizz missed a card in the classic nerfs: Charge.
people complained loads about force of natur- savage roar combo as a 14 damage 2-spell 9-mana cost combo, but grotesque dragonhawk+Charge is a 14 damage 2-card 10 mana combo! sure the extra mana is a big deal, but Charge is honestly way too problematic, in particular in combination with windfury minions. the Raging Worgen + Charge + 2x inner rage + Faceless + potentially even more crap is supposedly fine because it requires a ton of cards and setting up with thaurissan, but now we actually have an extremely equivalent situation compared to FoN SR except this time its for warrior. Grotesque Dragonhawk actually has somehow managed to be a worse card than Windfury Harpie. it costs an extra mana for +1 attack. yet Windfury Harpy OTK Warrior isn't exactly the most widespread deck in Hearthstone.
Really? It's def up there for sure though...Blizzard clearly missed out on nerfing that for sure
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On April 22 2016 03:48 Drazerk wrote:
That said I probably missed cards so if you see one please call me names
4 mana - Blackwater Pirate. 
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On April 22 2016 20:17 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 19:33 Schelim wrote:On April 22 2016 18:26 Roblin wrote:
ok lets be honest, blizz missed a card in the classic nerfs: Charge.
people complained loads about force of natur- savage roar combo as a 14 damage 2-spell 9-mana cost combo, but grotesque dragonhawk+Charge is a 14 damage 2-card 10 mana combo! sure the extra mana is a big deal, but Charge is honestly way too problematic, in particular in combination with windfury minions. the Raging Worgen + Charge + 2x inner rage + Faceless + potentially even more crap is supposedly fine because it requires a ton of cards and setting up with thaurissan, but now we actually have an extremely equivalent situation compared to FoN SR except this time its for warrior. Grotesque Dragonhawk actually has somehow managed to be a worse card than Windfury Harpie. it costs an extra mana for +1 attack. yet Windfury Harpy OTK Warrior isn't exactly the most widespread deck in Hearthstone. Really? It's def up there for sure though...Blizzard clearly missed out on nerfing that for sure
what do you mean? yes, Grotesque Dragonhawk costs 7 for 5/5 Windfury while Windfury Harpy costs 6 for 4/5 Windfury. Windfury Harpy is unplayable in any deck. Dragonhawk is not stronger. it is not a balance concern.
whether the card Charge is a balance concern is a different question, and it may well be. but that wasn't really what he was arguing.
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On April 22 2016 21:24 Schelim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 20:17 Cricketer12 wrote:On April 22 2016 19:33 Schelim wrote:On April 22 2016 18:26 Roblin wrote:
ok lets be honest, blizz missed a card in the classic nerfs: Charge.
people complained loads about force of natur- savage roar combo as a 14 damage 2-spell 9-mana cost combo, but grotesque dragonhawk+Charge is a 14 damage 2-card 10 mana combo! sure the extra mana is a big deal, but Charge is honestly way too problematic, in particular in combination with windfury minions. the Raging Worgen + Charge + 2x inner rage + Faceless + potentially even more crap is supposedly fine because it requires a ton of cards and setting up with thaurissan, but now we actually have an extremely equivalent situation compared to FoN SR except this time its for warrior. Grotesque Dragonhawk actually has somehow managed to be a worse card than Windfury Harpie. it costs an extra mana for +1 attack. yet Windfury Harpy OTK Warrior isn't exactly the most widespread deck in Hearthstone. Really? It's def up there for sure though...Blizzard clearly missed out on nerfing that for sure what do you mean? yes, Grotesque Dragonhawk costs 7 for 5/5 Windfury while Windfury Harpy costs 6 for 4/5 Windfury. Windfury Harpy is unplayable in any deck. Dragonhawk is not stronger. it is not a balance concern. whether the card Charge is a balance concern is a different question, and it may well be. but that wasn't really what he was arguing.
I was making a joke...
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On April 22 2016 21:24 Schelim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 20:17 Cricketer12 wrote:On April 22 2016 19:33 Schelim wrote:On April 22 2016 18:26 Roblin wrote:
ok lets be honest, blizz missed a card in the classic nerfs: Charge.
people complained loads about force of natur- savage roar combo as a 14 damage 2-spell 9-mana cost combo, but grotesque dragonhawk+Charge is a 14 damage 2-card 10 mana combo! sure the extra mana is a big deal, but Charge is honestly way too problematic, in particular in combination with windfury minions. the Raging Worgen + Charge + 2x inner rage + Faceless + potentially even more crap is supposedly fine because it requires a ton of cards and setting up with thaurissan, but now we actually have an extremely equivalent situation compared to FoN SR except this time its for warrior. Grotesque Dragonhawk actually has somehow managed to be a worse card than Windfury Harpie. it costs an extra mana for +1 attack. yet Windfury Harpy OTK Warrior isn't exactly the most widespread deck in Hearthstone. Really? It's def up there for sure though...Blizzard clearly missed out on nerfing that for sure what do you mean? yes, Grotesque Dragonhawk costs 7 for 5/5 Windfury while Windfury Harpy costs 6 for 4/5 Windfury. Windfury Harpy is unplayable in any deck. Dragonhawk is not stronger. it is not a balance concern. whether the card Charge is a balance concern is a different question, and it may well be. but that wasn't really what he was arguing.
actually that is exactly what I was arguing.
Charge! enables OTKs in combination with cards that have certain traits (high attack, windfury helps by effectively doubling the attack), therefore charge limits design space in these areas and therefore Charge! is a balance concern.
my example may not have been the best but that was in fact exactly my point.
the same applies to Tundra Rhino btw, it is also problematic for the same reason. charge cards and cards that give other cards charge are just extremely volatile since charge is such a powerful keyword, mainly because a minion with charge and X attack is way better than a spell that deals X damage. (there are much more easily accessible ways to buff minions than there are to buff spells)
and besides, I don't buy the argument that druids combo pieces are that great on their own, they are really not.
playing force of nature or savage roar for removal has always been a tempo-losing play, and while its true that they are plays that can be made despite the tempoloss I don't think that's an adequate reason to argue that they are somehow good cards without their combo partner.
savage roar can be good without force of nature, but primarily in decks that specialize in having a sticky board of many minions, and while those decks do get more mileage out of savage roar than the average druid deck, in return they sacrifice the mid and late game for early game power, effectively losing out on other aspects. in short, going all-in on savage roar will make savage roar better, but at the expense of other aspects of the deck.
in a similar vein, I can argue that grotuesque dragonhawk (its an overcosted body, but its a body that the opponent has to deal with if they can't kill you this turn) and charge (charge needs you to draw literally any non-charge minion to represent a sizeable amount of direct damage) can both be played for a tempo-loss, but they can be played, and are therefore not dead cards in the same way that FoN and SR are 'not dead cards'
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On April 22 2016 22:40 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 21:24 Schelim wrote:On April 22 2016 20:17 Cricketer12 wrote:On April 22 2016 19:33 Schelim wrote:On April 22 2016 18:26 Roblin wrote:
ok lets be honest, blizz missed a card in the classic nerfs: Charge.
people complained loads about force of natur- savage roar combo as a 14 damage 2-spell 9-mana cost combo, but grotesque dragonhawk+Charge is a 14 damage 2-card 10 mana combo! sure the extra mana is a big deal, but Charge is honestly way too problematic, in particular in combination with windfury minions. the Raging Worgen + Charge + 2x inner rage + Faceless + potentially even more crap is supposedly fine because it requires a ton of cards and setting up with thaurissan, but now we actually have an extremely equivalent situation compared to FoN SR except this time its for warrior. Grotesque Dragonhawk actually has somehow managed to be a worse card than Windfury Harpie. it costs an extra mana for +1 attack. yet Windfury Harpy OTK Warrior isn't exactly the most widespread deck in Hearthstone. Really? It's def up there for sure though...Blizzard clearly missed out on nerfing that for sure what do you mean? yes, Grotesque Dragonhawk costs 7 for 5/5 Windfury while Windfury Harpy costs 6 for 4/5 Windfury. Windfury Harpy is unplayable in any deck. Dragonhawk is not stronger. it is not a balance concern. whether the card Charge is a balance concern is a different question, and it may well be. but that wasn't really what he was arguing. actually that is exactly what I was arguing. Charge! enables OTKs in combination with cards that have certain traits (high attack, windfury helps by effectively doubling the attack), therefore charge limits design space in these areas and therefore Charge! is a balance concern. my example may not have been the best but that was in fact exactly my point. the same applies to Tundra Rhino btw, it is also problematic for the same reason. charge cards and cards that give other cards charge are just extremely volatile since charge is such a powerful keyword, mainly because a minion with charge and X attack is way better than a spell that deals X damage. (there are much more easily accessible ways to buff minions than there are to buff spells) and besides, I don't buy the argument that druids combo pieces are that great on their own, they are really not. playing force of nature or savage roar for removal has always been a tempo-losing play, and while its true that they are plays that can be made despite the tempoloss I don't think that's an adequate reason to argue that they are somehow good cards without their combo partner. savage roar can be good without force of nature, but primarily in decks that specialize in having a sticky board of many minions, and while those decks do get more mileage out of savage roar than the average druid deck, in return they sacrifice the mid and late game for early game power, effectively losing out on other aspects. in short, going all-in on savage roar will make savage roar better, but at the expense of other aspects of the deck. in a similar vein, I can argue that grotuesque dragonhawk (its an overcosted body, but its a body that the opponent has to deal with if they can't kill you this turn) and charge (charge needs you to draw literally any non-charge minion to represent a sizeable amount of direct damage) can both be played for a tempo-loss, but they can be played, and are therefore not dead cards in the same way that FoN and SR are 'not dead cards'
well, i supppose. it's just that arguing that Charge is problematic because of Grotesque Dragonhawk is a bit like arguing Malygos is problematic because of Frost Shock.
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I'm not really concerned with ~12 damage from-hand combos, because we have so many ways of doing that already. Grom, Pyroblast, double Kill Command, double Fireball, hell, even Core Hound...
The break point for me is 20. That's when cards are strong enough to be worth thinking about. Even then, it needs to be really reliable and present in an aggressive deck in order to be worth considering a nerf for. This is why Leeroy was probably too strong at 4 mana, and is why the Frost Giant combo isn't something to worry about. Force+Roar is a special case, of course, because it was in a deck with strong board presence and only needed one or two hits to face in order to convert a two-minion board to lethal.
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On April 22 2016 19:33 Schelim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 18:26 Roblin wrote:
ok lets be honest, blizz missed a card in the classic nerfs: Charge.
people complained loads about force of natur- savage roar combo as a 14 damage 2-spell 9-mana cost combo, but grotesque dragonhawk+Charge is a 14 damage 2-card 10 mana combo! sure the extra mana is a big deal, but Charge is honestly way too problematic, in particular in combination with windfury minions. the Raging Worgen + Charge + 2x inner rage + Faceless + potentially even more crap is supposedly fine because it requires a ton of cards and setting up with thaurissan, but now we actually have an extremely equivalent situation compared to FoN SR except this time its for warrior. Grotesque Dragonhawk actually has somehow managed to be a worse card than Windfury Harpie. it costs an extra mana for +1 attack. yet Windfury Harpy OTK Warrior isn't exactly the most widespread deck in Hearthstone.
GD is also a beast, so it has to be worse due to the cards that give beasts. If you raise the powerlevel of beasts too high, Ram Wrangler would be ridiculous.
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On April 22 2016 22:40 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 21:24 Schelim wrote:On April 22 2016 20:17 Cricketer12 wrote:On April 22 2016 19:33 Schelim wrote:On April 22 2016 18:26 Roblin wrote:
ok lets be honest, blizz missed a card in the classic nerfs: Charge.
people complained loads about force of natur- savage roar combo as a 14 damage 2-spell 9-mana cost combo, but grotesque dragonhawk+Charge is a 14 damage 2-card 10 mana combo! sure the extra mana is a big deal, but Charge is honestly way too problematic, in particular in combination with windfury minions. the Raging Worgen + Charge + 2x inner rage + Faceless + potentially even more crap is supposedly fine because it requires a ton of cards and setting up with thaurissan, but now we actually have an extremely equivalent situation compared to FoN SR except this time its for warrior. Grotesque Dragonhawk actually has somehow managed to be a worse card than Windfury Harpie. it costs an extra mana for +1 attack. yet Windfury Harpy OTK Warrior isn't exactly the most widespread deck in Hearthstone. Really? It's def up there for sure though...Blizzard clearly missed out on nerfing that for sure what do you mean? yes, Grotesque Dragonhawk costs 7 for 5/5 Windfury while Windfury Harpy costs 6 for 4/5 Windfury. Windfury Harpy is unplayable in any deck. Dragonhawk is not stronger. it is not a balance concern. whether the card Charge is a balance concern is a different question, and it may well be. but that wasn't really what he was arguing. actually that is exactly what I was arguing. Charge! enables OTKs in combination with cards that have certain traits (high attack, windfury helps by effectively doubling the attack), therefore charge limits design space in these areas and therefore Charge! is a balance concern. my example may not have been the best but that was in fact exactly my point. the same applies to Tundra Rhino btw, it is also problematic for the same reason. charge cards and cards that give other cards charge are just extremely volatile since charge is such a powerful keyword, mainly because a minion with charge and X attack is way better than a spell that deals X damage. (there are much more easily accessible ways to buff minions than there are to buff spells) and besides, I don't buy the argument that druids combo pieces are that great on their own, they are really not. playing force of nature or savage roar for removal has always been a tempo-losing play, and while its true that they are plays that can be made despite the tempoloss I don't think that's an adequate reason to argue that they are somehow good cards without their combo partner. savage roar can be good without force of nature, but primarily in decks that specialize in having a sticky board of many minions, and while those decks do get more mileage out of savage roar than the average druid deck, in return they sacrifice the mid and late game for early game power, effectively losing out on other aspects. in short, going all-in on savage roar will make savage roar better, but at the expense of other aspects of the deck. in a similar vein, I can argue that grotuesque dragonhawk (its an overcosted body, but its a body that the opponent has to deal with if they can't kill you this turn) and charge (charge needs you to draw literally any non-charge minion to represent a sizeable amount of direct damage) can both be played for a tempo-loss, but they can be played, and are therefore not dead cards in the same way that FoN and SR are 'not dead cards'
Eh, Charge isn't as problematic as you make it out to be.
Charge combos don't scale with board presence and are stopped dead in their tracks by taunt. Without any board presence FoN + Roar could break through a taunt and still get damage in or kill a vital minion, and with board presence it was devastating, making it punitive for players to leave any minions up for a Druid whatsoever. That's why it got nerfed.
Basically you have to ask yourself, "What is this combo doing that C'thun can't?" and the answer is "not much".
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On April 23 2016 01:26 Dark_Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 19:33 Schelim wrote:On April 22 2016 18:26 Roblin wrote:
ok lets be honest, blizz missed a card in the classic nerfs: Charge.
people complained loads about force of natur- savage roar combo as a 14 damage 2-spell 9-mana cost combo, but grotesque dragonhawk+Charge is a 14 damage 2-card 10 mana combo! sure the extra mana is a big deal, but Charge is honestly way too problematic, in particular in combination with windfury minions. the Raging Worgen + Charge + 2x inner rage + Faceless + potentially even more crap is supposedly fine because it requires a ton of cards and setting up with thaurissan, but now we actually have an extremely equivalent situation compared to FoN SR except this time its for warrior. Grotesque Dragonhawk actually has somehow managed to be a worse card than Windfury Harpie. it costs an extra mana for +1 attack. yet Windfury Harpy OTK Warrior isn't exactly the most widespread deck in Hearthstone. GD is also a beast, so it has to be worse due to the cards that give beasts. If you raise the powerlevel of beasts too high, Ram Wrangler would be ridiculous.
I actually just came to this thread to post about Ram Wrangler. In standard, the usual 5 drops are gone, making Ram Wrangler easier to fit, and very importantly, Infested Wolf is a very reliable beast tag on 4 mana.
What beasts are leaving standard? Webspinner, Haunted Creeper, Maexxna, King of Beasts, Lost Tallstrider.
What beasts are coming into the game?
Good or Great:
Huhuran (6/5), Giant Sandwurm (8/8), Grotesque Dragonhawk (5/5 wf), Evil Mukla (5/5), Infested Wolf (3/3 + 2 1/1),
Okay or Bad:
Carrion Grub (2/5), Dusk Boar (4/1), Firebat (2/1), Addled Grizzly (2/2+).
Overall this is a big boost in playability for Ram Wrangler. I'm gonna look into it a bit more.
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On April 23 2016 03:46 Dromar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2016 01:26 Dark_Chill wrote:On April 22 2016 19:33 Schelim wrote:On April 22 2016 18:26 Roblin wrote:
ok lets be honest, blizz missed a card in the classic nerfs: Charge.
people complained loads about force of natur- savage roar combo as a 14 damage 2-spell 9-mana cost combo, but grotesque dragonhawk+Charge is a 14 damage 2-card 10 mana combo! sure the extra mana is a big deal, but Charge is honestly way too problematic, in particular in combination with windfury minions. the Raging Worgen + Charge + 2x inner rage + Faceless + potentially even more crap is supposedly fine because it requires a ton of cards and setting up with thaurissan, but now we actually have an extremely equivalent situation compared to FoN SR except this time its for warrior. Grotesque Dragonhawk actually has somehow managed to be a worse card than Windfury Harpie. it costs an extra mana for +1 attack. yet Windfury Harpy OTK Warrior isn't exactly the most widespread deck in Hearthstone. GD is also a beast, so it has to be worse due to the cards that give beasts. If you raise the powerlevel of beasts too high, Ram Wrangler would be ridiculous. I actually just came to this thread to post about Ram Wrangler. In standard, the usual 5 drops are gone, making Ram Wrangler easier to fit, and very importantly, Infested Wolf is a very reliable beast tag on 4 mana.
This is a great point about Ram Wrangler, it could definitely find a spot in a deathrattle Hunter, Infested Wolf as you say makes it extremely likely that you'll have a beast on turn 5, and Fiery Bat costs 1 so it's possible to play both cards out for 6. Holding Fiery Bat in your hand also makes sense when you consider Forlorn Stalker giving it a buff, and on turn 6 you can play your 3/2 Bat and a Ram Wrangler. If Wrangler ends up being your turn 6 play then Huhuran could be your turn 5 play, there's a lot of strong and flexible cards that you can use with Hunter now.
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On April 23 2016 04:07 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2016 03:46 Dromar wrote:On April 23 2016 01:26 Dark_Chill wrote:On April 22 2016 19:33 Schelim wrote:On April 22 2016 18:26 Roblin wrote:
ok lets be honest, blizz missed a card in the classic nerfs: Charge.
people complained loads about force of natur- savage roar combo as a 14 damage 2-spell 9-mana cost combo, but grotesque dragonhawk+Charge is a 14 damage 2-card 10 mana combo! sure the extra mana is a big deal, but Charge is honestly way too problematic, in particular in combination with windfury minions. the Raging Worgen + Charge + 2x inner rage + Faceless + potentially even more crap is supposedly fine because it requires a ton of cards and setting up with thaurissan, but now we actually have an extremely equivalent situation compared to FoN SR except this time its for warrior. Grotesque Dragonhawk actually has somehow managed to be a worse card than Windfury Harpie. it costs an extra mana for +1 attack. yet Windfury Harpy OTK Warrior isn't exactly the most widespread deck in Hearthstone. GD is also a beast, so it has to be worse due to the cards that give beasts. If you raise the powerlevel of beasts too high, Ram Wrangler would be ridiculous. I actually just came to this thread to post about Ram Wrangler. In standard, the usual 5 drops are gone, making Ram Wrangler easier to fit, and very importantly, Infested Wolf is a very reliable beast tag on 4 mana. This is a great point about Ram Wrangler, it could definitely find a spot in a deathrattle Hunter, Infested Wolf as you say makes it extremely likely that you'll have a beast on turn 5, and Fiery Bat costs 1 so it's possible to play both cards out for 6. Holding Fiery Bat in your hand also makes sense when you consider Forlorn Stalker giving it a buff, and on turn 6 you can play your 3/2 Bat and a Ram Wrangler. If Wrangler ends up being your turn 6 play then Huhuran could be your turn 5 play, there's a lot of strong and flexible cards that you can use with Hunter now.
Why would I ever play beasts when I can play Dragons and GODS? In all seriousness though, I'm going to cry like a baby when my opponent gets Giant Sandworm from Ram Wrangler. I wouldn't be surprised if the card got changed eventually so that Blizzard could add even more expensive beasts to the game without breaking Hunter.
Like maybe the text could be, "Battlecry: If you have a beast, summon a random beast that costs 6 or less" or "Battlecry: If you have a beast, add a random beast to your hand. It costs 5 less". Both changes would work and the 2nd option would even let you utilize a beast's battlecry. I'd love to see the blowout potential of some cards be reduced. Like in Wild now, if your Piloted Skygolem summons Flamewreated Faceless (the 7/7) than your opponent will probably rage. Randomness if fine, but it should probably have a smaller scope.
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So I've done a little research on the new Ram Wrangler results for upcoming standard, and here's what I got.
There are 50 beasts possible to be wrangled. I've graded them pretty strictly, with a middling grade equivalent to "If I got this every time, the card is competitively playable," and a top grade equivalent to "The battlecry alone was worth 5 mana or more."
16 of them range from terrible to bad (basically 1/1s up to things like Bloodfen Raptor or River Crocolisk)
13 are meh or okay (things like Ironfur Grizzly, Jungle Panther, Mounted Raptor)
21 of them are slightly good to solid (things like Oasis Snapjaw, Savage Combatant, Infested Wolf, the Muklas)
7 are great (Core Hound, Savannah Highmane, King Krush, Captured Jormungar, Stranglethorn Tiger, Giant Sandwurm, Fossilized Devilsaur)
Overall there's a 34/50 (or 68%) chance that the result will not be bad, and about a 13/50, or 26% chance that your opponent will think you are a lucky POS when you play the card (basically a 5/5 or better from the battlecry).
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Technically getting a 3/2 or a 2/3 off Ram Wrangler is on or ahead of curve in stats, so I'd put that in the meh->okay range.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On April 23 2016 04:50 Dromar wrote:
So I've done a little research on the new Ram Wrangler results for upcoming standard, and here's what I got.
There are 50 beasts possible to be wrangled. I've graded them pretty strictly, with a middling grade equivalent to "If I got this every time, the card is competitively playable," and a top grade equivalent to "The battlecry alone was worth 5 mana or more."
16 of them range from terrible to bad (basically 1/1s up to things like Bloodfen Raptor or River Crocolisk)
13 are meh or okay (things like Ironfur Grizzly, Jungle Panther, Mounted Raptor)
21 of them are slightly good to solid (things like Oasis Snapjaw, Savage Combatant, Infested Wolf, the Muklas)
7 are great (Core Hound, Savannah Highmane, King Krush, Captured Jormungar, Stranglethorn Tiger, Giant Sandwurm, Fossilized Devilsaur)
Overall there's a 34/50 (or 68%) chance that the result will not be bad, and about a 13/50, or 26% chance that your opponent will think you are a lucky POS when you play the card (basically a 5/5 or better from the battlecry).
Psst Fossilized Devilsaur isn't a beast
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On April 23 2016 05:44 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2016 04:50 Dromar wrote:
So I've done a little research on the new Ram Wrangler results for upcoming standard, and here's what I got.
There are 50 beasts possible to be wrangled. I've graded them pretty strictly, with a middling grade equivalent to "If I got this every time, the card is competitively playable," and a top grade equivalent to "The battlecry alone was worth 5 mana or more."
16 of them range from terrible to bad (basically 1/1s up to things like Bloodfen Raptor or River Crocolisk)
13 are meh or okay (things like Ironfur Grizzly, Jungle Panther, Mounted Raptor)
21 of them are slightly good to solid (things like Oasis Snapjaw, Savage Combatant, Infested Wolf, the Muklas)
7 are great (Core Hound, Savannah Highmane, King Krush, Captured Jormungar, Stranglethorn Tiger, Giant Sandwurm, Fossilized Devilsaur)
Overall there's a 34/50 (or 68%) chance that the result will not be bad, and about a 13/50, or 26% chance that your opponent will think you are a lucky POS when you play the card (basically a 5/5 or better from the battlecry). Psst Fossilized Devilsaur isn't a beast
Not anymore he's not.
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On April 23 2016 05:44 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2016 04:50 Dromar wrote:
So I've done a little research on the new Ram Wrangler results for upcoming standard, and here's what I got.
There are 50 beasts possible to be wrangled. I've graded them pretty strictly, with a middling grade equivalent to "If I got this every time, the card is competitively playable," and a top grade equivalent to "The battlecry alone was worth 5 mana or more."
16 of them range from terrible to bad (basically 1/1s up to things like Bloodfen Raptor or River Crocolisk)
13 are meh or okay (things like Ironfur Grizzly, Jungle Panther, Mounted Raptor)
21 of them are slightly good to solid (things like Oasis Snapjaw, Savage Combatant, Infested Wolf, the Muklas)
7 are great (Core Hound, Savannah Highmane, King Krush, Captured Jormungar, Stranglethorn Tiger, Giant Sandwurm, Fossilized Devilsaur)
Overall there's a 34/50 (or 68%) chance that the result will not be bad, and about a 13/50, or 26% chance that your opponent will think you are a lucky POS when you play the card (basically a 5/5 or better from the battlecry). Psst Fossilized Devilsaur isn't a beast
Ah shoot. That's true.
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On April 23 2016 05:42 Seuss wrote:
Technically getting a 3/2 or a 2/3 off Ram Wrangler is on or ahead of curve in stats, so I'd put that in the meh->okay range.
But compare it to Silver Hand Knight, which although it doesn't summon a beast, isn't particularly useful. It's not horrible, but compared to something else you could have put in your deck, it isn't good either.
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On April 23 2016 05:42 Seuss wrote:
Technically getting a 3/2 or a 2/3 off Ram Wrangler is on or ahead of curve in stats, so I'd put that in the meh->okay range.
Well, kind of. I mentioned that I graded pretty strictly, and I did so for two reasons. First, Ram Wrangler does require you to have a beast in order to be playable, and that restriction needs to be made up for. Second, while 6/5 or 5/6 in total stats is "fine," that result is still subpar for constructed play.
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On April 23 2016 07:05 Dromar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2016 05:42 Seuss wrote:
Technically getting a 3/2 or a 2/3 off Ram Wrangler is on or ahead of curve in stats, so I'd put that in the meh->okay range. Well, kind of. I mentioned that I graded pretty strictly, and I did so for two reasons. First, Ram Wrangler does require you to have a beast in order to be playable, and that restriction needs to be made up for. Second, while 6/5 or 5/6 in total stats is "fine," that result is still subpar for constructed play.
I guess, to add to this idea, the more I think about it, the more I feel it's very tough for Ram Wrangler to be catastrophic. On the other hand, when you get one of the best outcomes, you may simply win the game on the spot.
For example, say you play Ram Wrangler and you get Ironbeak Owl. That's certainly not good, but I don't feel you're going to lose the game as a result. You paid 5 mana for 5/4 worth of stats, which is not very good, but it's still something at least. Another important point to realize is that you're only playing this card when you have a beast in play, meaning you already have a board. The weak outcomes like Ironbeak Owl will not hurt your winrate as much in those situations where you already have something in play (and are still getting 5/4 in stats).
On the other end of the spectrum, if you get a Captured Jormungar, Savannah Highmane, King Krush, or Giant Sandwurm, I feel it's very possible that you win the game on the spot. You will have an absolute monster, as well as a 3/3 and at least one other beast on the board. If your opponent doesn't have a really good answer, they are done for.
In many of the middling cases, the stats are frankly fine for what you pay and you've put threats on the board, which is as much as you can expect to do with any constructed playable card.
When TGT came out, I thought Ram Wrangler was gonna be nuts, but ultimately there were several things keeping it down (Belcher and Loatheb, no powerful 4 drop beast, some weaker beast outcomes like Webspinner and Haunted Creeper, very aggressive meta). Now, the stars seem to have aligned, and the more I think about it, the more it seems like an "85% fine or good, 15% win the game" type of card. Obviously that's somewhat simplistic, but I think the chance to drop a big beast and have an overwhelming chance of winning makes up for the times when it's a bit subpar.
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|
|
EPT
