EPTim sorry I wasted a post anyway.
Conservatives Waterboarded - Voluntarily. - Page 8
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28811 Posts
im sorry I wasted a post anyway. | ||
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ingvarb1
Iceland2 Posts
On May 24 2009 01:32 keV. wrote: I still think everything you mentioned is covered in my two reasons. I didn't mean or say that its because we are predominantly christian. The religion hate is because we are not unified under one religion, Islam. Its lack there of, not the wrong who. Only helping which ever regime at the moment? If you are talking middle east, regimes change fucking daily, so that doesn't mean much. At the root its always been because American policy has been on the side of the Jews since forever. You can stretch that any act of violence is retaliatory if you work hard enough, so that argument doesn't hold any weight. Every recent act of terror with America as the victim has had some underlying religious reason. You don't blow yourself up in a crowded bank for just one reason. Hate in itself is usually a compounding of dislikes that finally reach critical mass. That's so true. America should vote Ron Paul and say goodbye to Israel. Everybody would be happy. | ||
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TeCh)PsylO
United States3552 Posts
The only thing I would omit is that, I don't think we should care about torture worsening our reputation Our reputation and relationship with the local population of Iraq and Afhganistan is currently a central focus of our strategy. Take these examples for instance: Losing the media war to the Taliban A quote from the above link: Irregular warfare is all about achieving influence and legitimacy over the population. Here, perceptions become reality. To win the battle of perceptions, U.S. officials will need to try new tactics if they hope to outfight the Taliban's propaganda machine. Knitting Together an Afghan Strategy A quote from the above link: The commanders pick an area, send in troops to clear it of insurgents, and keep it secure—at which point government representatives and foreign aid workers come in and build roads, schools, whatever's needed or wanted. The example of this success spreads to other areas, where the sequence is duplicated, until gradually the country prospers, the insurgents lose favor with the population, and the central government—which has been taking credit for these successes—gains legitimacy. The two reasons we were targetted: 1) Helping Jews 2) Worshiping the wrong god The most simple response is that we are not the only country that fits into those two categories, so why target us over the others? My assumption is that you are not very familiar with the role we have played in the middle east. | ||
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keV.
United States3214 Posts
On May 24 2009 01:37 Liquid`Drone wrote: the american policy has not at all been on the side of the jews since forever, only since 67 or so. usa was quite arab-friendly until this point, and the arab world was quite usa-friendly. im sorry I wasted a post anyway. Well considering weapons didn't really get spread all over the place until after WWII, I'd count that as forever. Arab-world is a pretty loose term. Israel is certainly part of that. Certainly, Americans weren't any more or less friendly with any arab-world country at that time, before things got heated (with big bombs and tanks) | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28811 Posts
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keV.
United States3214 Posts
On May 24 2009 01:40 TeCh)PsylO wrote: Our reputation and relationship with the local population of Iraq and Afhganistan is currently a central focus of our strategy. Take these examples for instance: Losing the media war to the Taliban A quote from the above link: Knitting Together an Afghan Strategy A quote from the above link: The most simple response is that we are not the only country that fits into those two categories, so why target us over the others? My assumption is that you are not very familiar with the role we have played in the middle east. I'm too tired to format your post. Firstly, When you quote that one line out of context, you could rightfully post that link. But I was quoting you, so the collective context is: "They do not take many, if any PoW, and if they did, considering the beheadings that took place before water boarding was even introduced into the media, treatment of our captured troops should not be a concern." Secondly, why are we assumed to be the last? Whose to say they won't move onto another country when they are done with us? Why would you assume that? I mentioned siding with Israel. | ||
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keV.
United States3214 Posts
On May 24 2009 01:49 Liquid`Drone wrote: usa supported egypt against israel in 1956-57. OK, so since then? Also, I don't want to play: I post something, you post something then we wiki each other trying to discredit, nothing I've claimed in relation to the topic at hand is completely baseless. | ||
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RoadTrippin
United States48 Posts
BTW here is a little example of the terrorists' own tactics. WARNING: Viewer Discretion Advised DO NOT OPEN IF YOUR WEAK IN THE STOMACH + Show Spoiler + | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
On May 24 2009 02:10 RoadTrippin wrote: I can't believe people are still arguing on subjects like waterboarding. Waterboarding has been used on rare occasions on high-profile people ie, the mastermind of 9/11. With that said, the people we are fighting today in Iraq or Afghanistan are not patriotic normal citizen trying to protect their country. These people since birth saw their families die, saw their friends being blow apart, been told the American forces beheades their people. Their mentality towards life is completely different than those who has lived in a country that take their freedom for granted, ie US, and pretty much all the EUs. So the "conventional, socially accepted interrogating tactic" does not work obviously. Hell, these same people are the ones video taping American soldiers/hostages getting beheaded and putting their heads on its chest (and I'm sure no one has seen this thanks to the media) and their penis cut off and put inside their mouths. The amount of disrespect they have towards US is overwhelming, and yet the only thing the media puts on their show is about how an American soldier teaching a young Iraqi kid some bad words or not handing out candies from their god damn MREs. For fuck's sake, the people we are waterboarding are perfectly fine with beheading your mom, dad, brother, sister, or kid with a small steak knife and video taping it in the morning, and going to the church at 5:00pm that same day and praying to their God for hours on. And yet, the fact that we pour water over their head to making them "THINK" their drowning is so so horrible and demoralize all of what America stands for.. yeah..sure. BTW here is a little example of the terrorists' own tactics. WARNING: Viewer Discretion Advised DO NOT OPEN IF YOUR WEAK IN THE STOMACH + Show Spoiler + I agree they are savage man beasts who hate us for our freedom they would literally eat our children if they practiced good dental hygiene and wouldn't break their teeth on our sons and daughters strong american bone structures ![[image loading]](http://i42.tinypic.com/1t9f1t.jpg) | ||
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KurtistheTurtle
United States1966 Posts
On May 24 2009 01:00 keV. wrote: Assuming you are talking to me, why was the US targeted then? Also I did not say anything about women or loving freedom... The US was targeted because Osama bin Laden was trying to resurrect the islamic empire. I forget the exact term, but one that used to exist. The current governments were relying on western power and basically sheep under their policy, and he thought this blasphemy. He thought if he could strike at the most powerful non-islamic nation and show that they were weak it would rally people to his cause. This was made easier by other fundamentalist's anger at the US being on holy muslim grounds (saudi arabia). He also desired the US to go to war with them. He got us to go to war with them, but despite what he considered a "unifying cause" it didn't happen. All the other conjecture in this thread on the quoted question is good on an abstract level, but this is why 9/11 happened. | ||
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keV.
United States3214 Posts
On May 24 2009 02:41 KurtistheTurtle wrote: The US was targeted because Osama bin Laden was trying to resurrect the islamic empire. I forget the exact term, but one that used to exist. The current governments were relying on western power and basically sheep under their policy, and he thought this blasphemy. He thought if he could strike at the most powerful non-islamic nation and show that they were weak it would rally people to his cause. This was made easier by other fundamentalist's anger at the US being on holy muslim grounds (saudi arabia). He also desired the US to go to war with them. He got us to go to war with them, but despite what he considered a "unifying cause" it didn't happen. All the other conjecture in this thread on the quoted question is good on an abstract level, but this is why 9/11 happened. I said it was because of our support of Israel and because we are not unified under Islam. Here is what he said. | ||
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KurtistheTurtle
United States1966 Posts
On May 24 2009 02:10 RoadTrippin wrote: I can't believe people are still arguing on subjects like waterboarding. Waterboarding has been used on rare occasions on high-profile people ie, the mastermind of 9/11. With that said, the people we are fighting today in Iraq or Afghanistan are not patriotic normal citizen trying to protect their country. These people since birth saw their families die, saw their friends being blow apart, been told the American forces beheades their people. Their mentality towards life is completely different than those who has lived in a country that take their freedom for granted, ie US, and pretty much all the EUs. So the "conventional, socially accepted interrogating tactic" does not work obviously. Hell, these same people are the ones video taping American soldiers/hostages getting beheaded and putting their heads on its chest (and I'm sure no one has seen this thanks to the media) and their penis cut off and put inside their mouths. The amount of disrespect they have towards US is overwhelming, and yet the only thing the media puts on their show is about how an American soldier teaching a young Iraqi kid some bad words or not handing out candies from their god damn MREs. For fuck's sake, the people we are waterboarding are perfectly fine with beheading your mom, dad, brother, sister, or kid with a small steak knife and video taping it in the morning, and going to the church at 5:00pm that same day and praying to their God for hours on. And yet, the fact that we pour water over their head to making them "THINK" their drowning is so so horrible and demoralize all of what America stands for.. yeah..sure. BTW here is a little example of the terrorists' own tactics. WARNING: Viewer Discretion Advised DO NOT OPEN IF YOUR WEAK IN THE STOMACH + Show Spoiler + Yes, they are brutal. But we're better than that, and we lose our stance on human rights if we pursue things like this. This is the difference between us and them. Just because they do horrible things doesn't mean we're entitled to do "less horrible" things. | ||
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pyrogenetix
China5098 Posts
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StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
On May 24 2009 02:10 RoadTrippin wrote: I can't believe people are still arguing on subjects like waterboarding. Waterboarding has been used on rare occasions on high-profile people ie, the mastermind of 9/11. With that said, the people we are fighting today in Iraq or Afghanistan are not patriotic normal citizen trying to protect their country. These people since birth saw their families die, saw their friends being blow apart, been told the American forces beheades their people. Their mentality towards life is completely different than those who has lived in a country that take their freedom for granted, ie US, and pretty much all the EUs. So the "conventional, socially accepted interrogating tactic" does not work obviously. Hell, these same people are the ones video taping American soldiers/hostages getting beheaded and putting their heads on its chest (and I'm sure no one has seen this thanks to the media) and their penis cut off and put inside their mouths. The amount of disrespect they have towards US is overwhelming, and yet the only thing the media puts on their show is about how an American soldier teaching a young Iraqi kid some bad words or not handing out candies from their god damn MREs. For fuck's sake, the people we are waterboarding are perfectly fine with beheading your mom, dad, brother, sister, or kid with a small steak knife and video taping it in the morning, and going to the church at 5:00pm that same day and praying to their God for hours on. And yet, the fact that we pour water over their head to making them "THINK" their drowning is so so horrible and demoralize all of what America stands for.. yeah..sure. BTW here is a little example of the terrorists' own tactics. WARNING: Viewer Discretion Advised DO NOT OPEN IF YOUR WEAK IN THE STOMACH + Show Spoiler + 1. Ideology: Other countries back us because we champion freedom and human rights. Who would help us against terrorism if we also terrorized other countries and stepped on human rights? You mention that they kill at 3pm and go to church at 5pm. We're not like that right? That's the point. We can't be waterboarding at 3pm and saying our hands are not dirty and we're for human rights. Waterboarding might be practical. Maybe it helps us. But if we use it, we have to face the consequences. This debate of whether waterboarding is torture or not is trivializing torture. To everyone else's eyes, we're torturing people and not admitting it. Where is our moral authority then? 2. Practicality: Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay are used by terrorists as recruitment camps. Watch McCain's interview with Greta: http://www.foxnews.com/ontherecord/ (Go to ON THE RECORD section and click "Sen. McCain Uncut". They start by talking about waterboarding.) | ||
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RoadTrippin
United States48 Posts
Yes, a country that praises its freedom and human rights needs to follow the guidelines on the Geneva convention and human rights, but is it practical/possible? I'm like the last person to tell you this but the world is a unfair place and there will be corruptions and US breaking the law. It will happen. It has happened in the past and no shit it will happen again and again. But seriously in a broad picture, we're at war. People kill and people get killed. We pour some water over a few people to get some information. Is that really that bad? C'mon. At least he'll live to fight another day. | ||
MasterOfChaos
Germany2896 Posts
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
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lIlIlIlIlIlI
Korea (South)3851 Posts
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Pawsom
United States928 Posts
On May 24 2009 04:50 randomKo_Orean wrote: I disagree with torture in any way, shape, or form. I've never been tortured, but every single human being that has been tortured condone torture. I think you're mixing up the words condone and condemn. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8100 Posts
On May 24 2009 02:10 RoadTrippin wrote: I can't believe people are still arguing on subjects like waterboarding. Waterboarding has been used on rare occasions on high-profile people ie, the mastermind of 9/11. With that said, the people we are fighting today in Iraq or Afghanistan are not patriotic normal citizen trying to protect their country. These people since birth saw their families die, saw their friends being blow apart, been told the American forces beheades their people. Their mentality towards life is completely different than those who has lived in a country that take their freedom for granted, ie US, and pretty much all the EUs. So the "conventional, socially accepted interrogating tactic" does not work obviously. Hell, these same people are the ones video taping American soldiers/hostages getting beheaded and putting their heads on its chest (and I'm sure no one has seen this thanks to the media) and their penis cut off and put inside their mouths. The amount of disrespect they have towards US is overwhelming, and yet the only thing the media puts on their show is about how an American soldier teaching a young Iraqi kid some bad words or not handing out candies from their god damn MREs. For fuck's sake, the people we are waterboarding are perfectly fine with beheading your mom, dad, brother, sister, or kid with a small steak knife and video taping it in the morning, and going to the church at 5:00pm that same day and praying to their God for hours on. And yet, the fact that we pour water over their head to making them "THINK" their drowning is so so horrible and demoralize all of what America stands for.. yeah..sure. BTW here is a little example of the terrorists' own tactics. WARNING: Viewer Discretion Advised DO NOT OPEN IF YOUR WEAK IN THE STOMACH + Show Spoiler + That's a beautiful post. So basically, theses people have not been educated in a "free" country (I am quite sure I don't share your conception of freedom, because I don't see US as a free country at all but that's not the point...), so, as they are less civilized than you, they have to be tortured because "civilized" methods of interogations don't work with them. You are a fucking moron. Theses people are perfectly right to fight you. You fuck up the whole world, you invade countries, you exploit whole continents, you fuck up the ecosystem, you torture and assassinate people with your superior ballistic technology, you invade the world with your messianic bullshit about democracy and freedom, your impose free-market to countries who don't want it in order to exploit them through your multinationales, you flood the planet with your disgusting mercantil sub-culture, but you are right, you are the most civilized. I'm fed up with all this neo-fascist imperialist bullshit. What the fuck are doing the mods on this website? Is it trendy to promote torture here? That's my fucking last post here, I'm leaving teamliquid. | ||
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