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On May 23 2009 22:14 ingvarb1 wrote:
You guys are all obviously neo-liberals. This technique has saved hundreds of America lives and none of you seem to care about that? Why do you guys care what's being done to terrorists leaders in Guantanamo Bay? This technique is not used on all prisoners.
Terrorist being waterboarded is a lot better than a skyscraper falling down because some liberals couldn't see a TERRORISTS being waterboarded.
Thank god for america! Think of all they lives they saved when the invaded iraq, destroyed a country, and killed thousands. America! YEAH!
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Buckets provide kidney damage, then, according to the US dept. of justice.
Waiiiit
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Norway28702 Posts
On May 23 2009 22:59 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 22:45 Liquid`Drone wrote:
how can you justify current behaviour with what happened during world war 2? seriously?
seeing as you seemingly have no moral objections to torture, and that you think any legal objections are irrelevant, how about this
torture has been proven to be a horrible and absolutely unreliable way of extracting information because people in fact tend to say whatever the torturer wants to hear rather than what actually is the truth. Who said anything about 'justifying' etc. I want to see if he'll stay consistent. Waterboarding works. You honestly believe that the CIA just goes around and waterboards anyone, not knowing if they even have any actionable intelligence they can gleam. Naivate. Everyone who is waterboarded is verified beforehand that they do know information that is actionable. I'll say this again. Waterboarding isn't torture. Yeah, yeah semantics, right? Well I certainly do not place waterboarding in the same definition as for example, what happened to John McCain in captivity. Do you?
the same CIA that thought there were WMD in iraq? weren't statements gotten through torture used as part of the justification for that entire escapade?
waterboarding is torture, they're utilizing it because it's so horrible that everyone succumbs to it. there's little permanent physical damage, but a significant amount of psychological damage - hitchens reported problems sleeping because of one controlled experiment. please tell me you understand that the personal consequences would be significantly worse through it happening repeatedly, while the guys doing it are threatening you, while you are held captive and where it is done in combination for example sleep deprivation..
just because this is "less bad" than stuff that happened 50 years ago by regimes or groups USA would never even dream of comparing itself with (it's implied that the self-stated pinnacle of western democracy and freedom is morally elevated above random vietkong guerilla soldiers, or soldiers in nazi germany, or guards in Gulag camps.) does not mean it justifies it at all.
further, torture employed by american soldiers greatly increases the danger of torture being applied against american soldiers. this is common sense, come on.. torture breeds hatred.. through employing it, you're creating emotions bound to bite yourself in the ass.
I'm not at all justifying 9/11, that was a horrible tragedy. however, many people stated, somewhat distastefully, that this was payback for the USA's foreign policy, especially with regard to the middle east. you think going there and torturing people whom by many are regarded as important leader figures (and just how horrible and deserving these people in actuality are is irrelevant) / martyrs is going to improve the chances of 9/11 never being repeated? once again, seriously?
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On May 23 2009 20:34 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 13:40 Mindcrime wrote:On May 23 2009 13:07 Aegraen wrote:On May 23 2009 12:34 Mindcrime wrote:
His "best people in the world" also aren't. oh noez!
You aren't one of those people who think Colbert is a conservative are you? No. I don't watch Colbert anyways. I tend to drift to the more constitutional crowd those with you know, principles and values, then create platforms around those. Arrgh, who am I kidding anyways, the people in politics now-a-days with that gumption is less than 5% and thats being generous. As opposed to the unconstitutional crowd? The one prohibited by the supreme law of the land? oh wait, wat :| Yes, as opposed to the crowd who does anything for power, disregards the intent and wording of the constitution and panders to groups. I'm sure you think taking over industries is constitutional. Never mind the fact that the founders sought to strictly LIMIT the power to the federal government. Conservative/Libertarian/Constitutionalist. Yes. Progressive, which now-a-days just means socialist, marxist, etc. No. Really, you think the (D)'s who spend every waking moment to limit the 2nd amendment and impose restrictions on the first amendment, and bypass the 10th amendment, or just skip right over it, have this immense gratitude and upholding of the you know, supreme law of the land. This same group who doesn't enforce any immigration laws at all. Yes, that group who are blatantly, un-constitutional.Don't worry, the (R)'s are just one little step behind them.
Freedom of association is a right. Their actions, when in positions of power, may be unconstitutional and they may claim authority where they have none, but the group itself is perfectly in line with the constitution.
And thanks for misjudging my political orientation.
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On May 23 2009 22:14 ingvarb1 wrote:
You guys are all obviously neo-liberals. This technique has saved hundreds of America lives and none of you seem to care about that? Why do you guys care what's being done to terrorists leaders in Guantanamo Bay? This technique is not used on all prisoners.
Terrorist being waterboarded is a lot better than a skyscraper falling down because some liberals couldn't see a TERRORISTS being waterboarded.
Well if you don't give a damn about morals and think it's all necessary then look from practical point of view.
Torture DID NOT extract any additional valuable information that wasn't already obtained through smart interrogation techniques. Only people saying that they did is Bush administration (especially Dick Cheney), who has yet to prove it. On the other hand, FBI lead interrogators and other people who have access to secret memos have testified that none of this is true and no such information was gathered.
Torture DID extract false information because tortured people said anything to stop it. This led to hundreds of innocent people getting jailed, wasted millions of dollars and valuable investigators time on investigations that led nowhere because information was made up.
Based on false information (from tortured detainees) on Iraq link to Al-Qaeda, a war was started which cause about 150,000 - 250,000 civilian deaths, wasted billions of dollars during disastrous economic times and worsened situation in middle east.
Torture and Iraq war DID increase potential terrorist count because fundamentalists used increased hatred towards America as its recruitment tool.
Even if you think its moral to torture terrorists, in reality it's inefficient, slow and counter-productive way to fight terrorism.
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On May 23 2009 22:14 ingvarb1 wrote:
You guys are all obviously neo-liberals. This technique has saved hundreds of America lives and none of you seem to care about that? Why do you guys care what's being done to terrorists leaders in Guantanamo Bay? This technique is not used on all prisoners.
Terrorist being waterboarded is a lot better than a skyscraper falling down because some liberals couldn't see a TERRORISTS being waterboarded.
We all like free markets, deregulation and globalization? How did you come to this conclusion?
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On May 23 2009 22:00 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 21:56 aRod wrote:On May 23 2009 21:14 Aegraen wrote:On May 23 2009 21:01 Liquid`Drone wrote:On May 23 2009 13:16 aRod wrote:On May 23 2009 11:30 Aegraen wrote:On May 23 2009 10:33 MoRe_mInErAls wrote:On May 23 2009 10:24 HeadBangaa wrote:
It's a damn good thing nobody offered me $1000 per second to be waterboarded. I would certainly die.
Hey is anybody else surprised neither of these guys could last longer than 3 seconds? I mean, even if their air supply were completely eliminated, I don't understand how they only lasted that long.
It does make me want to try. I promise to record and post it if I do, but only if you bastards promise to rate it 5/5. =D With adequate proof that it is you, I will literally pay you $100 for every second above 5 seconds you are waterboarded I'll do it. Its about a state of mind more than anything else. The intention when you are waterboarded is not to kill you. It is to extract information. Once you know this you can last as long as your will is there. Most of us in the military have epicly fucking huge wills. How much is in your bank account? Most people in the military also lack any degree beyond a high school diploma. You may be an exception. I dont know, but I highly doubt your state of mind can immediately overpower years of evolutionary adaptation aimed at avoiding drowning. With your hands and feet and body bound, do you really believe you'll remain calm. With practice who knows what anyone can accomplish. Surely your self assured faith in your "epically fucking huge will" can help you here. oh now dont bother trying to convince Aegraen through referring to evolution I think what he meant to say was 'fight or flight response'...no no...'instincts'...possibly...oh rubbish, everyone knows the things people will do for money. I'm a pretty calm demeanored guy, so yeah there would be no reason for my heart rate to increase. It takes quite a bit to get me anxious, nervous, scared, etc. I'm also acutely aware of the 'fear of drowning' since you know, I am part of a Sea going service. So Aegraen, when did you graduate highschool and what religion were you brainwashed with? You might want to elaborate on your thoughts here. What were you brainwashed with?
Sure I'll start. My brainwashing started when I was a little boy of 3. My parents made me go to church every sunday and attempted to instill the "word of god" in me. Luckily, I couldn't reconcile the teachings of religion with what I was learning in science class. Attempts at brainwashing me pretty much ended here, although I still see signs proclaiming the power of god to the depressed, tired, confused, and hopeless. It's true, christains and religious groups feed on the weak.
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People getting trolled hard by Aegraen, AGAIN...
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On May 24 2009 00:04 keV. wrote:
People getting trolled hard by Aegraen, AGAIN...
pretty sure he's not trolling
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On May 24 2009 00:22 choboPEon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2009 00:04 keV. wrote:
People getting trolled hard by Aegraen, AGAIN... pretty sure he's not trolling
Well, you're wrong, and that is because hes good at it.
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On May 24 2009 00:41 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2009 00:22 choboPEon wrote:On May 24 2009 00:04 keV. wrote:
People getting trolled hard by Aegraen, AGAIN... pretty sure he's not trolling Well, you're wrong, and that is because hes good at it.
youve sure convinced me
either prove it or get back to the topic
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On May 24 2009 00:41 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2009 00:22 choboPEon wrote:On May 24 2009 00:04 keV. wrote:
People getting trolled hard by Aegraen, AGAIN... pretty sure he's not trolling Well, you're wrong, and that is because hes good at it.
trolling and stating your opinion are two very different things
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Aegren claims that he can withstand waterboarding, and that waterboarding is effective at making the prisoners talk.
does that mean that Aegren is really awesome or that the prisoners are wusses?
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On May 24 2009 00:50 Foucault wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2009 00:41 keV. wrote:On May 24 2009 00:22 choboPEon wrote:On May 24 2009 00:04 keV. wrote:
People getting trolled hard by Aegraen, AGAIN... pretty sure he's not trolling Well, you're wrong, and that is because hes good at it. trolling and stating your opinion are two very different things
Thanks...
I actually agree with what you said here. The only thing I would omit is that, I don't think we should care about torture worsening our reputation with the middle east. These insurgents aren't trying to win a war. They are trying to kill Americans, they aren't asking us to withdraw, or surrender territory, or wealth... They are asking us to die for being infidels.
The most important thing that we can get out of debating this is either a new policy on PoW treatment or to make sense of the old.
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Norway28702 Posts
that is absolutely not true. USA was never targeted because it loves the wrong god or because it allows women to walk around almost naked and work or because it loves freedom.
and jeppew that's excellent haha.
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On May 24 2009 00:59 Liquid`Drone wrote:
that is absolutely not true. USA was never targeted because it loves the wrong god or because it allows women to walk around almost naked and work or because it loves freedom.
and jeppew that's excellent haha.
Assuming you are talking to me, why was the US targeted then? Also I did not say anything about women or loving freedom...
The two reasons we were targetted:
1) Helping Jews
2) Worshiping the wrong god.
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Norway28702 Posts
because the foreign policy of the american government for the past 30 years has pissed off a lot of people. just think about the fact that the only western countries targeted have been countries involved in wars against predominantly islamic countries. canada has never been targeted, norway or sweden, far more secular (and thus heretic) countries have never been targeted. (note that it is largely considered better to be christian than atheist, even amongst muslim fundamentalists, similarly to how christian fundamentalists regard muslims as preferable over atheists.  ). great britain was, because of their involvement in the invasion against iraq. spain was, because of their involvement in the invasion against iraq.. there's a clear pattern in terrorist attacks worldwide for the past 50 years, and they mostly all have in common that they are in some way retaliatory, and almost never caused by ideological or religious differences by themselves.
I am by no means justifying them, but you should not believe that "the muslims hate you because you're christian" - it's not the case.
the support of israel is indeed one of the main reasons, but there's also stuff like
making afghanistan a military quagmire for the soviet union (usa deliberately gave the afghani rebels enough weaponry to resist the soviet union, but also not enough to defeat them - all to make sure USSR was sufficiently entrenched in afghanistan to make it so costly for them that it would contribute to them losing the cold war). obviously this was a horrible disaster for the afghani population - as USSR waged a truly, truly horrific war. (mines disguided as dolls to kill/maim children for one. ) of course, it's not the fault of USA that USSR uses this kind of weaponry, but it's not hard to understand why someone who fought for afghanistan, who realises that USA had weaponry they did not supply them with because they wanted the war to last longer, will end up really angry and vengeful..
supporting iraq against iran following the islamic revolution that overthrew the USA-friendly shah of iran (in 1979 - this war lasted from 1980 to 1988), for then to attack iraq in 1990-91. basically, USA has been supporting whichever regime has happened to be favourable of them at the moment, without much regard for who they end up pissing off through supporting those regimes.
I have to study or I'd go more into detail 
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On May 23 2009 21:17 Vharox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 21:11 Mah Buckit! wrote:
If I was fighting against US army and knew stuff like that being done to my comrads, I would shoot americans like dogs :/
Except I do kinda like dogs... yeah, but you forget that your supposed "comrads" prefer beheadings
Well beheading is not torture
And you still have death penalties in some states.
That´s pretty much the same thing but to your own people. Or well mostly to black people...
And you must remember that Al-Qaida relies heavily on religious brainwashing so they are kinda insane people like most people happen to be. Religions alone are never a reason for war or terrorism, they´re just the way to get the easily manipulated people do whatever the leaders want for whatever political etc. reasons they have. Politics are the reason for todays mass religions. Would christianity have survived without the Roman emperors first accepting it and then made it the only religion later on? Would there be any jews if they hadn´t been wealthy merchants back in the day? This has always been and pretty much will always be as long as we have religions and stuff. But you should know this because this manipulation happens all the time in America too. Don´t you think it´s funny how none of the US presidents are considered christian prophets when they always seem to know Gods will.
Anyway torture is never justified.
And maybe I would shoot americans like dogs anyway  Don´t come on my yard.
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I still think everything you mentioned is covered in my two reasons. I didn't mean or say that its because we are predominantly christian. The religion hate is because we are not unified under one religion, Islam. Its lack there of, not the wrong who.
Only helping which ever regime at the moment? If you are talking middle east, regimes change fucking daily, so that doesn't mean much. At the root its always been because American policy has been on the side of the Jews since forever.
You can stretch that any act of violence is retaliatory if you work hard enough, so that argument doesn't hold any weight. Every recent act of terror with America as the victim has had some underlying religious reason. You don't blow yourself up in a crowded bank for just one reason. Hate in itself is usually a compounding of dislikes that finally reach critical mass.
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EPT
