EPTCondoleezza Rice on "torture" / waterboarding. - Page 2
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
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r.Evo
Germany14081 Posts
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Xenixx
United States530 Posts
On May 14 2009 06:35 r.Evo wrote: Question. What -IS- the answer to the "homework question"? What kept them from holding the trials? ;p I don't know shit about the media coverage of those events (I was in Iraq at the time) but I would assume it was the citizens of the US. On May 14 2009 06:18 KlaCkoN wrote: I find it extremly funny that her argument is identical to the one used in thread on the old nazi guy. "Bush told us to turture them so of course it wasn't illegal" versus "Hitler ordered the death camps, so standing guard there was not illegal and should not be punishable". *sighs* sometimes humans make me sick to my stomach. Sometimes? There is a good reason why I'm not pulling for the survival of the human race. | ||
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 14 2009 06:04 seppolevne wrote: "No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion" - Third Geneva Convention, Part 3, Section 1, Article 17-20. No rights? I think that's what the Geneva convention is. Do you know how to read? Here I'll go through this for you: Part III. Captivity Section 1. Beginning of Captivity Art 17. Every prisoner of war, when questioned on the subject, is bound to give only his surname, first names and rank, date of birth, and army, regimental, personal or serial number, or failing this, equivalent information. If he wilfully infringes this rule, he may render himself liable to a restriction of the privileges accorded to his rank or status. Each Party to a conflict is required to furnish the persons under its jurisdiction who are liable to become prisoners of war, with an identity card showing the owner's surname, first names, rank, army, regimental, personal or serial number or equivalent information, and date of birth. The identity card may, furthermore, bear the signature or the fingerprints, or both, of the owner, and may bear, as well, any other information the Party to the conflict may wish to add concerning persons belonging to its armed forces. As far as possible the card shall measure 6.5 x 10 cm. and shall be issued in duplicate. The identity card shall be shown by the prisoner of war upon demand, but may in no case be taken away from him. No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind. Prisoners of war who, owing to their physical or mental condition, are unable to state their identity, shall be handed over to the medical service. The identity of such prisoners shall be established by all possible means, subject to the provisions of the preceding paragraph. The questioning of prisoners of war shall be carried out in a language which they understand. Art 18. All effects and articles of personal use, except arms, horses, military equipment and military documents, shall remain in the possession of prisoners of war, likewise their metal helmets and gas masks and like articles issued for personal protection. Effects and articles used for their clothing or feeding shall likewise remain in their possession, even if such effects and articles belong to their regulation military equipment. At no time should prisoners of war be without identity documents. The Detaining Power shall supply such documents to prisoners of war who possess none. Badges of rank and nationality, decorations and articles having above all a personal or sentimental value may not be taken from prisoners of war. Sums of money carried by prisoners of war may not be taken away from them except by order of an officer, and after the amount and particulars of the owner have been recorded in a special register and an itemized receipt has been given, legibly inscribed with the name, rank and unit of the person issuing the said receipt. Sums in the currency of the Detaining Power, or which are changed into such currency at the prisoner's request, shall be placed to the credit of the prisoner's account as provided in Article 64. The Detaining Power may withdraw articles of value from prisoners of war only for reasons of security; when such articles are withdrawn, the procedure laid down for sums of money impounded shall apply. Such objects, likewise sums taken away in any currency other than that of the Detaining Power and the conversion of which has not been asked for by the owners, shall be kept in the custody of the Detaining Power and shall be returned in their initial shape to prisoners of war at the end of their captivity. Art 19. Prisoners of war shall be evacuated, as soon as possible after their capture, to camps situated in an area far enough from the combat zone for them to be out of danger. Only those prisoners of war who, owing to wounds or sickness, would run greater risks by being evacuated than by remaining where they are, may be temporarily kept back in a danger zone. Prisoners of war shall not be unnecessarily exposed to danger while awaiting evacuation from a fighting zone. Art 20. The evacuation of prisoners of war shall always be effected humanely and in conditions similar to those for the forces of the Detaining Power in their changes of station. The Detaining Power shall supply prisoners of war who are being evacuated with sufficient food and potable water, and with the necessary clothing and medical attention. The Detaining Power shall take all suitable precautions to ensure their safety during evacuation, and shall establish as soon as possible a list of the prisoners of war who are evacuated. If prisoners of war must, during evacuation, pass through transit camps, their stay in such camps shall be as brief as possible. ---------------------------------------------- That is only for POW. Enemy Combatants are not POW. Those held at those facilities, were Enemy Combatants. I'll define this for you according to the Geneva Conventions: Art 4. A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy: (1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces. (2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:[ (a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; (b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) that of carrying arms openly; (d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. (3) Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power. (4) Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization, from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model. (5) Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law. (6) Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war. ---------------- Now, how again are Al'Qaeda and the Taliban POW? They are not. They are Enemy Combatants. Art 47. Mercenaries 1. A mercenary shall not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war. 2. A mercenary is any person who: (a) is specially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict; (b) does, in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities; (c) is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party; (d) is neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict; (e) is not a member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and (f) has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces. Many of the insurgents within Iraq, are mercenaries by Geneva Conventions definition. I will outline the important part. They are for all intents and purposes Enemy Combatants; these are the people being held. I repeat, NOT POW. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 14 2009 06:44 Aegraen wrote: ---------------- Now, how again are Al'Qaeda and the Taliban POW? They are not. They are Enemy Combatants. Art 47. Mercenaries 1. A mercenary shall not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war. 2. A mercenary is any person who: (a) is specially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict; (b) does, in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities; (c) is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party; (d) is neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict; (e) is not a member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and (f) has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces. Many of the insurgents within Iraq, are mercenaries by Geneva Conventions definition. I will outline the important part. They are for all intents and purposes Enemy Combatants; these are the people being held. I repeat, NOT POW. You can word wrangle all you want. Torture is still wrong. | ||
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 14 2009 06:12 Zato-1 wrote: This man speaks the truth. There's also the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Article 5. * No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment." No, your both wrong. Al'Qaeda and Taliban have no rights because they are not recognized by the Geneva Conventions as being a POW. You quoted off the rights of a POW, but since Al'Qaeda and Taliban are not POW, how are they entitled to those rights? Answer: They aren't. They have zero rights. We can 'lawfully' under the geneva conventions, execute them on the battlefield. | ||
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 14 2009 06:46 Archerofaiur wrote: You can word wrangle all you want. Torture is still wrong. I'm not word wrangling anything. This is the Geneva Conventions. There is no moral compass in times of War! You either, are killed, or get killed. You have to extract all possible information by any means necessary. I would rather be alive than dead. Also, if you think what happened to the detainees as torture, then there were many persons subjected to torture on the Fear Factor. | ||
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 14 2009 06:07 VIB wrote: I've got to admit. As much as the intellectual value of the TL general forums are as low as it can be. The irony it causes if often entertaining. It's ironic how a person is pointed out irony only for him to be said person. Irony, ain't it fun. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 14 2009 06:49 Aegraen wrote: I'm not word wrangling anything. This is the Geneva Conventions. There is no moral compass in times of War! You either, are killed, or get killed. You have to extract all possible information by any means necessary. I would rather be alive than dead. Also, if you think what happened to the detainees as torture, then there were many persons subjected to torture on the Fear Factor. Its still wrong. Im sorry im not going to play mind games with you. If you have to do it then you say "ok we have to torture". We have to do something wrong to protect ourselves. You don't pretend its something else. | ||
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 14 2009 06:55 Archerofaiur wrote: Its still wrong. Im sorry im not going to play mind games with you. If you have to do it then you say "ok we have to torture". We have to do something wrong to protect ourselves. You don't pretend its something else. You don't understand what Torture is. We waterboard our own special forces. It is not torture. Listening to loud music for 20 hours is not torture. Being put in a box with insects your scared of is not torture. Torture is having bamboo shoved up your fingernails. Torture is breaking your bones. Torture is watching them kill your fellow soldiers. Torture is many things, and what happened at Guantanamo is not torture. Do you even know what countries did in WWI / II / Vietnam (Viet Cong), etc? You do know US shot and killed those who surrendered on the beaches of Normandy. In times of war the only thing that guides you, is survival, and abiding by the geneva conventions if able to (See: Normandy). You are the only one who is putting the US on the proverbial "Pussy Pedestal". We are the moral compass of the world because of our domestic life, not because of what we do during War. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 14 2009 07:10 Aegraen wrote: You don't understand what Torture is. We waterboard our own special forces. It is not torture. Listening to loud music for 20 hours is not torture. Being put in a box with insects your scared of is not torture. Main Entry: Tor·ture Pronunciation: \ˈtȯr-chər\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle French, from Old French, from Late Latin tortura, from Latin tortus, past participle of torquēre to twist; probably akin to Old High German drāhsil turner, Greek atraktos spindle Date: 1540 1 a: anguish of body or mind : agony b: something that causes agony or pain 2: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure 3: distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument : straining Source: http://mw1.m-w.com/dictionary/torture On May 14 2009 07:10 Aegraen wrote: Do you even know what countries did in WWI / II / Vietnam (Viet Cong), etc? You do know US shot and killed those who surrendered on the beaches of Normandy. In times of war the only thing that guides you, is survival, and abiding by the geneva conventions if able to (See: Normandy). You are the only one who is putting the US on the proverbial "Pussy Pedestal". We are the moral compass of the world because of our domestic life, not because of what we do during War. The arguement is "Did America Torture?" not "Was it nessisary?" | ||
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 14 2009 07:16 Archerofaiur wrote: Main Entry: Tor·ture Pronunciation: \ˈtȯr-chər\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle French, from Old French, from Late Latin tortura, from Latin tortus, past participle of torquēre to twist; probably akin to Old High German drāhsil turner, Greek atraktos spindle Date: 1540 1 a: anguish of body or mind : agony b: something that causes agony or pain 2: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure 3: distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument : straining Source: http://mw1.m-w.com/dictionary/torture The arguement is "Did America Torture?" not "Was it nessisary?" Using that definition then Parental discipline (Spanking, time out, taking away valuables) is torture. Do you honestly believe such foolish things? | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
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VegeTerran
Sweden214 Posts
On May 14 2009 07:10 Aegraen wrote: You don't understand what Torture is. We waterboard our own special forces. It is not torture. Listening to loud music for 20 hours is not torture. Being put in a box with insects your scared of is not torture. Torture is having bamboo shoved up your fingernails. Torture is breaking your bones. Torture is watching them kill your fellow soldiers. Torture is many things, and what happened at Guantanamo is not torture. Do you even know what countries did in WWI / II / Vietnam (Viet Cong), etc? You do know US shot and killed those who surrendered on the beaches of Normandy. In times of war the only thing that guides you, is survival, and abiding by the geneva conventions if able to (See: Normandy). You are the only one who is putting the US on the proverbial "Pussy Pedestal". We are the moral compass of the world because of our domestic life, not because of what we do during War. do you really believe the crap you're writing? | ||
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 14 2009 07:25 VegeTerran wrote: do you really believe the crap you're writing? Of course a liberal socialist would say such things. Protip: Robin Hood is a story. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On May 14 2009 07:32 Aegraen wrote: Of course a liberal socialist would say such things. Protip: Robin Hood is a story. Darn commies with there idealistic whatnows. | ||
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On May 14 2009 07:35 Archerofaiur wrote: Darn commies with there idealistic whatnows. Hmmm? I'm a 1776 American. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On May 14 2009 06:07 VIB wrote: I've got to admit. As much as the intellectual value of the TL general forums are as low as it can be. The irony it causes if often entertaining. I would say the greater irony is that TL is actually likely to be way ahead of the curve. | ||
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