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What the hell? Does it really matter if you call it? It's still the same thing.
Enemy combatant = PoW
Rough interrogation technique = Torture.
Some smartass lawyer made that crap up to justify things that cannot be justified. To me it's quite clear that the geneva convention is intended to cover this case. Now some american lawyers has ripped it to shreds. By doing this kind of renaming you can justify most thing Hitler did during WWII. He considered jews sub-human, animals. Does it mean it was OK for him to kill and persecute them?
This kind of lawyer talk really makes me sick. If there is a large amount of people considering this as torture, then it is. No matter what you chose to call it.
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On May 14 2009 07:25 Archerofaiur wrote:
Do I believe words mean what the dictionary says they mean?
Yes
I don't know the context of this post, so I am not trying t comment on discussion that was taking place.
I just want to say that dictionaries aren't always right. They sometimes do an inadequate job of explaining the definitions of words. Not often, but sometimes.
(not to say there is anything better for someone who is trying to learn what words mean)
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must be nice for the authorities that you just need to point at someone, yell terrorist and his rights dissapear like magic.
but who cares about human rights anyways?
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Waterboarding is very much a method of torture. I can't see how you fail to comprehend that.
Torture is ALWAYS wrong. Arguing that it's okay by using some kind of loophole in the conventions is also wrong.
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On May 14 2009 07:10 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 06:55 Archerofaiur wrote:On May 14 2009 06:49 Aegraen wrote:
I'm not word wrangling anything. This is the Geneva Conventions. There is no moral compass in times of War! You either, are killed, or get killed. You have to extract all possible information by any means necessary.
I would rather be alive than dead. Also, if you think what happened to the detainees as torture, then there were many persons subjected to torture on the Fear Factor. Its still wrong. Im sorry im not going to play mind games with you. If you have to do it then you say "ok we have to torture". We have to do something wrong to protect ourselves. You don't pretend its something else. You don't understand what Torture is. We waterboard our own special forces. It is not torture. Listening to loud music for 20 hours is not torture. Being put in a box with insects your scared of is not torture. Torture is having bamboo shoved up your fingernails. Torture is breaking your bones. Torture is watching them kill your fellow soldiers. Torture is many things, and what happened at Guantanamo is not torture. Do you even know what countries did in WWI / II / Vietnam (Viet Cong), etc? You do know US shot and killed those who surrendered on the beaches of Normandy. In times of war the only thing that guides you, is survival, and abiding by the geneva conventions if able to (See: Normandy). You are the only one who is putting the US on the proverbial "Pussy Pedestal". We are the moral compass of the world because of our domestic life, not because of what we do during War.
"Waterboarding" Even the new-speak is there :/
The fanatical defense of unspeakable attrocities in the name of some abstract "war" happening far away.
Constant monitoring of all communication channels, for our safety. CCTVs everywhere.
No longer any need for courts, "This is an exception","This is an emergency" and now it's gone all the way to: "It's for the president!"
Seriously just replace "Al Quaida" with "The Enemy" and look at this 
When I was younger Orwell's world felt like one of bottomless pessimism but it is becoming all too real.
War is peace
Freedom is slavery
Ignorance is strength!
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On May 14 2009 07:32 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 07:25 VegeTerran wrote:On May 14 2009 07:10 Aegraen wrote:On May 14 2009 06:55 Archerofaiur wrote:On May 14 2009 06:49 Aegraen wrote:
I'm not word wrangling anything. This is the Geneva Conventions. There is no moral compass in times of War! You either, are killed, or get killed. You have to extract all possible information by any means necessary.
I would rather be alive than dead. Also, if you think what happened to the detainees as torture, then there were many persons subjected to torture on the Fear Factor. Its still wrong. Im sorry im not going to play mind games with you. If you have to do it then you say "ok we have to torture". We have to do something wrong to protect ourselves. You don't pretend its something else. You don't understand what Torture is. We waterboard our own special forces. It is not torture. Listening to loud music for 20 hours is not torture. Being put in a box with insects your scared of is not torture. Torture is having bamboo shoved up your fingernails. Torture is breaking your bones. Torture is watching them kill your fellow soldiers. Torture is many things, and what happened at Guantanamo is not torture. Do you even know what countries did in WWI / II / Vietnam (Viet Cong), etc? You do know US shot and killed those who surrendered on the beaches of Normandy. In times of war the only thing that guides you, is survival, and abiding by the geneva conventions if able to (See: Normandy). You are the only one who is putting the US on the proverbial "Pussy Pedestal". We are the moral compass of the world because of our domestic life, not because of what we do during War. do you really believe the crap you're writing? Of course a liberal socialist would say such things. Protip: Robin Hood is a story.
Only in America could this be an insult :D.
Your previous goverment tortured people. This is not up for discussion. Unless you're a O'Reilly / Hannity fanboy you should be thoroughly ashamed about some of the things you just said. The funny thing is that you keep telling yourself nothing is wrong with it. You're unaware of the fact that "waterboarding" gives you the feeling of death by drowning? You start to panic within seconds and it might kill you if done wrong.
Look at the facts here. Everyone who supports waterboarding are right wing nutjobs who claim to be fighting for their country. How many of them actually served in the military? The answer is NONE. No person who has seen war and (possibly) torture up front will ever defend it. The only way you can defend torture is if you're sitting infront of your TV in the suburbs stuffing your fat face with crisps and worrying about colesterol all day. The only way you can defend it is if your world is so narrow that you can't imagine the effects of it and how it makes a mockery of living in a progressive society.
People like you spend their whole lives trying to validate their own beliefs instead of opening their eyes and admitting they're wrong sometimes. I sincerely hope you can get past your narrow world view some day.
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Well, Alfred Jodl was just following orders too!
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is awesome32277 Posts
On May 14 2009 07:10 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 06:55 Archerofaiur wrote:On May 14 2009 06:49 Aegraen wrote:
I'm not word wrangling anything. This is the Geneva Conventions. There is no moral compass in times of War! You either, are killed, or get killed. You have to extract all possible information by any means necessary.
I would rather be alive than dead. Also, if you think what happened to the detainees as torture, then there were many persons subjected to torture on the Fear Factor. Its still wrong. Im sorry im not going to play mind games with you. If you have to do it then you say "ok we have to torture". We have to do something wrong to protect ourselves. You don't pretend its something else. You don't understand what Torture is. We waterboard our own special forces. It is not torture. Listening to loud music for 20 hours is not torture. Being put in a box with insects your scared of is not torture. Torture is having bamboo shoved up your fingernails. Torture is breaking your bones. Torture is watching them kill your fellow soldiers. Torture is many things, and what happened at Guantanamo is not torture. Do you even know what countries did in WWI / II / Vietnam (Viet Cong), etc? You do know US shot and killed those who surrendered on the beaches of Normandy. In times of war the only thing that guides you, is survival, and abiding by the geneva conventions if able to (See: Normandy). You are the only one who is putting the US on the proverbial "Pussy Pedestal". We are the moral compass of the world because of our domestic life, not because of what we do during War.
Wow, you sure like to lie.
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Heres a philosophical question.
Can something be wrong AND nessisary?
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On May 14 2009 08:17 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 07:32 Aegraen wrote:On May 14 2009 07:25 VegeTerran wrote:On May 14 2009 07:10 Aegraen wrote:On May 14 2009 06:55 Archerofaiur wrote:On May 14 2009 06:49 Aegraen wrote:
I'm not word wrangling anything. This is the Geneva Conventions. There is no moral compass in times of War! You either, are killed, or get killed. You have to extract all possible information by any means necessary.
I would rather be alive than dead. Also, if you think what happened to the detainees as torture, then there were many persons subjected to torture on the Fear Factor. Its still wrong. Im sorry im not going to play mind games with you. If you have to do it then you say "ok we have to torture". We have to do something wrong to protect ourselves. You don't pretend its something else. You don't understand what Torture is. We waterboard our own special forces. It is not torture. Listening to loud music for 20 hours is not torture. Being put in a box with insects your scared of is not torture. Torture is having bamboo shoved up your fingernails. Torture is breaking your bones. Torture is watching them kill your fellow soldiers. Torture is many things, and what happened at Guantanamo is not torture. Do you even know what countries did in WWI / II / Vietnam (Viet Cong), etc? You do know US shot and killed those who surrendered on the beaches of Normandy. In times of war the only thing that guides you, is survival, and abiding by the geneva conventions if able to (See: Normandy). You are the only one who is putting the US on the proverbial "Pussy Pedestal". We are the moral compass of the world because of our domestic life, not because of what we do during War. do you really believe the crap you're writing? Of course a liberal socialist would say such things. Protip: Robin Hood is a story. Only in America could this be an insult :D. Your previous goverment tortured people. This is not up for discussion. Unless you're a O'Reilly / Hannity fanboy you should be thoroughly ashamed about some of the things you just said. The funny thing is that you keep telling yourself nothing is wrong with it. You're unaware of the fact that "waterboarding" gives you the feeling of death by drowning? You start to panic within seconds and it might kill you if done wrong. Look at the facts here. Everyone who supports waterboarding are right wing nutjobs who claim to be fighting for their country. How many of them actually served in the military? The answer is NONE. No person who has seen war and (possibly) torture up front will ever defend it. The only way you can defend torture is if you're sitting infront of your TV in the suburbs stuffing your fat face with crisps and worrying about colesterol all day. The only way you can defend it is if your world is so narrow that you can't imagine the effects of it and how it makes a mockery of living in a progressive society. People like you spend their whole lives trying to validate their own beliefs instead of opening their eyes and admitting they're wrong sometimes. I sincerely hope you can get past your narrow world view some day.
I am in the military. According to my government I'm an extremist, and I could give two flying fucks, because I exist for the government to be scared, not the other way around. That is why we have a 2nd amendment, and why my founders fought so hard for it. Governments should always be afraid of their denizens. (Yes, I'm one of those guys who doesn't want amnesty and actually have border enforcement and ICE do their job, yes I'm pro-life, and yes, I'm a conservative/libertarian in the military).
Waterboarding is not torture. Everyone in the world has become such sissy babies, but yet cry foul when it breaks their preconceived notions. Guess, what they do much worse things on FEAR FACTOR and many other TV shows. You have no idea what torture is.
Also, those crying about 'lawyer speak' and what not. Read the Geneva Conventions, its quite clear, now I know its hard to actually accept the truth when its layed in front of you, but as good logical people you should know when you're right and wrong, correct? You cannot accept one part of the conventions and reject another, its an all or nothing document, capiche?
Those held at guantanomo are from the battlefield. They are not POW, they are according to the Geneva Conventions 'mercenaries' or 'enemy combatants'. They have no rights, you affording them some abstract 'human rights' is shouting 'fuck you' right in the face of every soldier and their families who have to fight these pieces of trash who use civilians as shields and wear no uniforms and strike civilians rather than militarily.
Only liberals could ever view terrorist / enemy combatant scum with greater regard than those serving my country and their families. DISGRACEFUL. These are people killing our soldiers and civilians, wake up.
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United States22883 Posts
On May 14 2009 06:12 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 06:04 seppolevne wrote:
"No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion" - Third Geneva Convention, Part 3, Section 1, Article 17-20.
No rights? I think that's what the Geneva convention is. This man speaks the truth. There's also the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Article 5. * No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
And who's army enforces UDHR? The problem with that and the Geneva Convention is that no one gives a damn. There's not a single country that can hold another country accountable for violating those agreements, because every single country violates them, with possible exception of Germany because they're still guilt tripping over WW2. The only reason France stopped used torture was because they found it to be ineffective, and this only occurred decades after the Geneva Convention was signed.
So talking about this in real terms and not just theories, you can't bring up official codes because none of the codes are followed and none of them even make sense. Official US War Crime code (Title 18 sec. 2441) states that inflicting "serious bodily injury to one or more persons, including lawful combatants" is in violation of the law of war. What exactly is the purpose of war if not to inflict serious bodily injury? The entire thing makes no sense.
I'm not saying it's admissible - I just wrote a theory paper on how war damages the "body" - but I think you need to look at it in realistic terms. You don't torture because it's immoral, ineffective and endangers your own combatants. You don't choose not to torture because of a ridiculous idealistic piece of paper that was agreed upon to earn politicians' favor in their respective elections.
Unfortunately, we don't really know the extent of Rice's duties as NSC advisor but I'm sure she's responsible for many of the poor decisions that were made. Then again, she was an expert on the fucking East Germany and the Soviet Union, so she shouldn't have been an advisor to begin with. Looking back, it seems she was very much a legacy product of the earlier Bush.
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On May 14 2009 07:52 TS-Rupbar wrote:
Waterboarding is very much a method of torture. I can't see how you fail to comprehend that.
Torture is ALWAYS wrong. Arguing that it's okay by using some kind of loophole in the conventions is also wrong.
Waterboarding is not torture. It's not a loophole, it explicitly makes it clear, what is, and is not a POW and what rights, or not they are afforded. You saying something doesn't make your statement true, rather its very much fallacious.
The world is not black and white.
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On May 14 2009 08:43 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 08:17 StarBrift wrote:On May 14 2009 07:32 Aegraen wrote:On May 14 2009 07:25 VegeTerran wrote:On May 14 2009 07:10 Aegraen wrote:On May 14 2009 06:55 Archerofaiur wrote:On May 14 2009 06:49 Aegraen wrote:
I'm not word wrangling anything. This is the Geneva Conventions. There is no moral compass in times of War! You either, are killed, or get killed. You have to extract all possible information by any means necessary.
I would rather be alive than dead. Also, if you think what happened to the detainees as torture, then there were many persons subjected to torture on the Fear Factor. Its still wrong. Im sorry im not going to play mind games with you. If you have to do it then you say "ok we have to torture". We have to do something wrong to protect ourselves. You don't pretend its something else. You don't understand what Torture is. We waterboard our own special forces. It is not torture. Listening to loud music for 20 hours is not torture. Being put in a box with insects your scared of is not torture. Torture is having bamboo shoved up your fingernails. Torture is breaking your bones. Torture is watching them kill your fellow soldiers. Torture is many things, and what happened at Guantanamo is not torture. Do you even know what countries did in WWI / II / Vietnam (Viet Cong), etc? You do know US shot and killed those who surrendered on the beaches of Normandy. In times of war the only thing that guides you, is survival, and abiding by the geneva conventions if able to (See: Normandy). You are the only one who is putting the US on the proverbial "Pussy Pedestal". We are the moral compass of the world because of our domestic life, not because of what we do during War. do you really believe the crap you're writing? Of course a liberal socialist would say such things. Protip: Robin Hood is a story. Only in America could this be an insult :D. Your previous goverment tortured people. This is not up for discussion. Unless you're a O'Reilly / Hannity fanboy you should be thoroughly ashamed about some of the things you just said. The funny thing is that you keep telling yourself nothing is wrong with it. You're unaware of the fact that "waterboarding" gives you the feeling of death by drowning? You start to panic within seconds and it might kill you if done wrong. Look at the facts here. Everyone who supports waterboarding are right wing nutjobs who claim to be fighting for their country. How many of them actually served in the military? The answer is NONE. No person who has seen war and (possibly) torture up front will ever defend it. The only way you can defend torture is if you're sitting infront of your TV in the suburbs stuffing your fat face with crisps and worrying about colesterol all day. The only way you can defend it is if your world is so narrow that you can't imagine the effects of it and how it makes a mockery of living in a progressive society. People like you spend their whole lives trying to validate their own beliefs instead of opening their eyes and admitting they're wrong sometimes. I sincerely hope you can get past your narrow world view some day. I am in the military. According to my government I'm an extremist, and I could give two flying fucks, because I exist for the government to be scared, not the other way around. That is why we have a 2nd amendment, and why my founders fought so hard for it. Governments should always be afraid of their denizens. (Yes, I'm one of those guys who doesn't want amnesty and actually have border enforcement and ICE do their job, yes I'm pro-life, and yes, I'm a conservative/libertarian in the military). Waterboarding is not torture. Everyone in the world has become such sissy babies, but yet cry foul when it breaks their preconceived notions. Guess, what they do much worse things on FEAR FACTOR and many other TV shows. You have no idea what torture is. Also, those crying about 'lawyer speak' and what not. Read the Geneva Conventions, its quite clear, now I know its hard to actually accept the truth when its layed in front of you, but as good logical people you should know when you're right and wrong, correct? You cannot accept one part of the conventions and reject another, its an all or nothing document, capiche? Those held at guantanomo are from the battlefield. They are not POW, they are according to the Geneva Conventions 'mercenaries' or 'enemy combatants'. They have no rights, you affording them some abstract 'human rights' is shouting 'fuck you' right in the face of every soldier and their families who have to fight these pieces of trash who use civilians as shields and wear no uniforms and strike civilians rather than militarily. Only liberals could ever view terrorist / enemy combatant scum with greater regard than those serving my country and their families. DISGRACEFUL. These are people killing our soldiers and civilians, wake up.
if fear factor is worse, why don't they send the "enemy combatants" there for questioning?
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You can be both an enemy combatant AND a prisoner of war. That's why one member of a CSRT said "Combatant Status Review Tribunals do not have the discretion to determine that a detainee should be classified as a prisoner of war - only whether the detainee satisfies the definition of 'enemy combatant.'"
So the assertion that detainees are "enemy combatants" and not "prisoners of war" means jackshit.
Additionally, as the Bush Administration admitted, whether or not detainees are PoW's, they are still protected by Article III which includes protection from "violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture."
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United States22883 Posts
On May 14 2009 08:43 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 08:17 StarBrift wrote:On May 14 2009 07:32 Aegraen wrote:On May 14 2009 07:25 VegeTerran wrote:On May 14 2009 07:10 Aegraen wrote:On May 14 2009 06:55 Archerofaiur wrote:On May 14 2009 06:49 Aegraen wrote:
I'm not word wrangling anything. This is the Geneva Conventions. There is no moral compass in times of War! You either, are killed, or get killed. You have to extract all possible information by any means necessary.
I would rather be alive than dead. Also, if you think what happened to the detainees as torture, then there were many persons subjected to torture on the Fear Factor. Its still wrong. Im sorry im not going to play mind games with you. If you have to do it then you say "ok we have to torture". We have to do something wrong to protect ourselves. You don't pretend its something else. You don't understand what Torture is. We waterboard our own special forces. It is not torture. Listening to loud music for 20 hours is not torture. Being put in a box with insects your scared of is not torture. Torture is having bamboo shoved up your fingernails. Torture is breaking your bones. Torture is watching them kill your fellow soldiers. Torture is many things, and what happened at Guantanamo is not torture. Do you even know what countries did in WWI / II / Vietnam (Viet Cong), etc? You do know US shot and killed those who surrendered on the beaches of Normandy. In times of war the only thing that guides you, is survival, and abiding by the geneva conventions if able to (See: Normandy). You are the only one who is putting the US on the proverbial "Pussy Pedestal". We are the moral compass of the world because of our domestic life, not because of what we do during War. do you really believe the crap you're writing? Of course a liberal socialist would say such things. Protip: Robin Hood is a story. Only in America could this be an insult :D. Your previous goverment tortured people. This is not up for discussion. Unless you're a O'Reilly / Hannity fanboy you should be thoroughly ashamed about some of the things you just said. The funny thing is that you keep telling yourself nothing is wrong with it. You're unaware of the fact that "waterboarding" gives you the feeling of death by drowning? You start to panic within seconds and it might kill you if done wrong. Look at the facts here. Everyone who supports waterboarding are right wing nutjobs who claim to be fighting for their country. How many of them actually served in the military? The answer is NONE. No person who has seen war and (possibly) torture up front will ever defend it. The only way you can defend torture is if you're sitting infront of your TV in the suburbs stuffing your fat face with crisps and worrying about colesterol all day. The only way you can defend it is if your world is so narrow that you can't imagine the effects of it and how it makes a mockery of living in a progressive society. People like you spend their whole lives trying to validate their own beliefs instead of opening their eyes and admitting they're wrong sometimes. I sincerely hope you can get past your narrow world view some day. I am in the military. Position?
Those held at guantanomo are from the battlefield. They are not POW, they are according to the Geneva Conventions 'mercenaries' or 'enemy combatants'.
This is completely false. The reason Gitmo and other secret facilities exist is so that citizens and visitors can be extradited beyond the jurisdiction of US law. There are some combatants held there because places like Bagram got filled up, but there were a good number of US citizens held there as well.
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On May 14 2009 08:45 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 06:12 Zato-1 wrote:On May 14 2009 06:04 seppolevne wrote:
"No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion" - Third Geneva Convention, Part 3, Section 1, Article 17-20.
No rights? I think that's what the Geneva convention is. This man speaks the truth. There's also the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "Article 5. * No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment." And who's army enforces UDHR? The problem with that and the Geneva Convention is that no one gives a damn. There's not a single country that can hold another country accountable for violating those agreements, because every single country violates them, with possible exception of Germany because they're still guilt tripping over WW2. The only reason France stopped used torture was because they found it to be ineffective, and this only occurred decades after the Geneva Convention was signed. So talking about this in real terms and not just theories, you can't bring up official codes because none of the codes are followed and none of them even make sense. Official US War Crime code (Title 18 sec. 2441) states that inflicting "serious bodily injury to one or more persons, including lawful combatants" is in violation of the law of war. What exactly is the purpose of war if not to inflict serious bodily injury? The entire thing makes no sense. I'm not saying it's admissible - I just wrote a theory paper on how war damages the "body" - but I think you need to look at it in realistic terms. You don't torture because it's immoral, ineffective and endangers your own combatants. You don't choose not to torture because of a ridiculous idealistic piece of paper that was agreed upon to earn politicians' favor in their respective elections. Unfortunately, we don't really know the extent of Rice's duties as NSC advisor but I'm sure she's responsible for many of the poor decisions that were made. Then again, she was an expert on the fucking East Germany and the Soviet Union, so she shouldn't have been an advisor to begin with. Looking back, it seems she was very much a legacy product of the earlier Bush.
It's so ineffective, yet we haven't been attacked since 9/11.
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On May 14 2009 08:51 Aegraen wrote:
It's so ineffective, yet we haven't been attacked since 9/11.
I have an Anti-Polar Bear Rock to sell you.
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On May 14 2009 08:42 Archerofaiur wrote:
Heres a philosophical question.
Can something be wrong AND nessisary?
No.
But things can be wrong but necessary though.
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On May 14 2009 08:51 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2009 08:43 Aegraen wrote:On May 14 2009 08:17 StarBrift wrote:On May 14 2009 07:32 Aegraen wrote:On May 14 2009 07:25 VegeTerran wrote:On May 14 2009 07:10 Aegraen wrote:On May 14 2009 06:55 Archerofaiur wrote:On May 14 2009 06:49 Aegraen wrote:
I'm not word wrangling anything. This is the Geneva Conventions. There is no moral compass in times of War! You either, are killed, or get killed. You have to extract all possible information by any means necessary.
I would rather be alive than dead. Also, if you think what happened to the detainees as torture, then there were many persons subjected to torture on the Fear Factor. Its still wrong. Im sorry im not going to play mind games with you. If you have to do it then you say "ok we have to torture". We have to do something wrong to protect ourselves. You don't pretend its something else. You don't understand what Torture is. We waterboard our own special forces. It is not torture. Listening to loud music for 20 hours is not torture. Being put in a box with insects your scared of is not torture. Torture is having bamboo shoved up your fingernails. Torture is breaking your bones. Torture is watching them kill your fellow soldiers. Torture is many things, and what happened at Guantanamo is not torture. Do you even know what countries did in WWI / II / Vietnam (Viet Cong), etc? You do know US shot and killed those who surrendered on the beaches of Normandy. In times of war the only thing that guides you, is survival, and abiding by the geneva conventions if able to (See: Normandy). You are the only one who is putting the US on the proverbial "Pussy Pedestal". We are the moral compass of the world because of our domestic life, not because of what we do during War. do you really believe the crap you're writing? Of course a liberal socialist would say such things. Protip: Robin Hood is a story. Only in America could this be an insult :D. Your previous goverment tortured people. This is not up for discussion. Unless you're a O'Reilly / Hannity fanboy you should be thoroughly ashamed about some of the things you just said. The funny thing is that you keep telling yourself nothing is wrong with it. You're unaware of the fact that "waterboarding" gives you the feeling of death by drowning? You start to panic within seconds and it might kill you if done wrong. Look at the facts here. Everyone who supports waterboarding are right wing nutjobs who claim to be fighting for their country. How many of them actually served in the military? The answer is NONE. No person who has seen war and (possibly) torture up front will ever defend it. The only way you can defend torture is if you're sitting infront of your TV in the suburbs stuffing your fat face with crisps and worrying about colesterol all day. The only way you can defend it is if your world is so narrow that you can't imagine the effects of it and how it makes a mockery of living in a progressive society. People like you spend their whole lives trying to validate their own beliefs instead of opening their eyes and admitting they're wrong sometimes. I sincerely hope you can get past your narrow world view some day. I am in the military. Position? Show nested quote +Those held at guantanomo are from the battlefield. They are not POW, they are according to the Geneva Conventions 'mercenaries' or 'enemy combatants'. This is completely false. The reason Gitmo and other secret facilities exist is so that citizens and visitors can be extradited beyond the jurisdiction of US law. There are some combatants held there because places like Bagram got filled up, but there were a good number of US citizens held there as well.
E-4.
There are no 'US' citizens there. If you're referring to the bill it merely stated that you could be held there (Which I am against, as an American you are entitled to unalieable rights, by the Constitution and Bill of Rights). As far as I am aware, there are no US citizens being held there.
I guess it won't matter soon as Al'Qaeda will soon be able to bring their whole operation to the US and become legal US Citizens when Nanci Pelosi and her minions get their way and allow the whole world to migrate here like flies on shit. There has to be immigration control and quotas. It is not economically feasible to allow the world free reign into this country.
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EPT
