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On May 16 2009 05:53 Jibba wrote:
You should start a "Legalize Drugs" thread or revive one of the older ones for this. I wasn't criticizing the overall concept, just the "this will solve everything" manner in which Ventura presented it. Lets get back to artificially drowning people.
I'd like to drown this thread and 95% of the posters in it. Fuckers.
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On May 16 2009 05:58 Xenixx wrote:Show nested quote +What you're saying is times have changed quite significantly from the time when the constitution was written, yet you still uphold it as absolute law. The US Constitution is revised, edited and updated if I'm not mistaken. Let me ask you how you think the US Constitution is so important to Americans? How did our relatively young nation come to be? Show nested quote +So there has to be underlying fear, not necessarily torture, yes? Also, it's naive to think that all religious extremists are themselves willing to blow themselves up for their cause. Torture, three things come to mind, Mental instability, Fear, Pain. Again our arguments are centered around how little you know, its not about what we know. What the hell do you bring to the table about terrorism? What the hell do you know about it that makes your opinion any stronger than ours? Show nested quote +Yup, coercion MIGHT be more effective than other methods. Therefore, it also MIGHT not be. I just want to know what you all think the US or any developed country may use torture for. Why do we torture? Do we enjoy it? If its so inefficient and antiquated why is it used? Why only in war seemingly? Why do you think? We don't live a perfect world is what were trying to tell you. I wish humans didn't use torture, I wish a million things but its not fucking reality. Humanity is the problem not America. We used to be the only shining fucking light out there but now its all about criticizing us. The problem I see is with humanity, human nature, mans cruelty towards man not the US specifically. e: this is more directed at anyone who believes the quoted statements, feel free to answer on behalf.
Yeah the constitution can be amended. I don't think the constitution should be used as justification for things. Obama wanted to ban assault weapons (don't know what the case is with this now), and people said that it was unconstitutional, therefore he shouldn't be allowed to ban them. Shouldn't the reason to allow assault rifles to be owned be based upon deaths related to assault rifles, for example?
You're arguing that all religious fanatics are willing to blow themselves up for their cause? That's what Aegraen was saying. If I misinterpreted what Aegraen was trying to say then ignore what I said.
Torture is severe mental or physical pain. Fear isn't necessarily torture.
I know what you're saying, that torture has produced results. I don't doubt that it has but I'd like to see some hard evidence that it has, and on a consistent basis. You and Aegraen still haven't given any evidence for the effectiveness of torture. Meaning that you don't torture people who have no information, and that it actually works.
I know we don't live in a perfect world but that is not justification for anything. What is the justification for torture?
Edit: Spelling.
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You should start a "Legalize Drugs" thread or revive one of the older ones for this. I wasn't criticizing the overall concept, just the "this will solve everything" manner in which Ventura presented it. Ventura's position on waterboarding had nothing remotely close to that tone, so I'm starting to wonder why you brought it up given that this topic is about torture.
I honestly think this entire thread is an open and shut case against torture until substantial proof of the superior effectiveness of torture is presented. You can create a powerful utilitarian argument for the use of torture only if it actually works, and works better than other options.
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On May 16 2009 06:53 Wohmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 05:58 Xenixx wrote:What you're saying is times have changed quite significantly from the time when the constitution was written, yet you still uphold it as absolute law. The US Constitution is revised, edited and updated if I'm not mistaken. Let me ask you how you think the US Constitution is so important to Americans? How did our relatively young nation come to be? So there has to be underlying fear, not necessarily torture, yes? Also, it's naive to think that all religious extremists are themselves willing to blow themselves up for their cause. Torture, three things come to mind, Mental instability, Fear, Pain. Again our arguments are centered around how little you know, its not about what we know. What the hell do you bring to the table about terrorism? What the hell do you know about it that makes your opinion any stronger than ours? Yup, coercion MIGHT be more effective than other methods. Therefore, it also MIGHT not be. I just want to know what you all think the US or any developed country may use torture for. Why do we torture? Do we enjoy it? If its so inefficient and antiquated why is it used? Why only in war seemingly? Why do you think? Great, no consensus, so let's not torture people. We don't live a perfect world is what were trying to tell you. I wish humans didn't use torture, I wish a million things but its not fucking reality. Humanity is the problem not America. We used to be the only shining fucking light out there but now its all about criticizing us. The problem I see is with humanity, human nature, mans cruelty towards man not the US specifically. e: this is more directed at anyone who believes the quoted statements, feel free to answer on behalf. Yeah the constitution can be amended. I don't think the constitution should be used as justification for things. Obama wanted to ban assault weapons (don't know what the case is with this now), and people said that it was unconstitutional, therefore he shouldn't be allowed to ban them. Shouldn't the reason to allow assault rifles to be owned be based upon deaths related to assault rifles, for example? You're arguing that all religious fanatics are willing to blow themselves up for their cause? That's what Aegraen was saying. If I misinterpreted what Aegraen was trying to say then ignore what I said. Torture is severe mental or physical pain. Fear isn't necessarily torture. I know what you're saying, that torture has produced results. I don't doubt that it has but I'd like to see some hard evidence that it has, and on a consistent basis. You and Aegraen still haven't given any evidence for the effectiveness of torture. Meaning that you don't torture people who have no information, and that it actually works. I know we don't live in a perfect world but that is not justification for anything. What is the justification for torture? Edit: Spelling.
I'll say that I've met these religious fanatics in person, I'll say I've killed them, I'll say I've studied them, but I won't say I understand what they're capable of. I'm also not going to argue exactly what Aegraen is, he has his point of view and I have mine.
I think even without torturing you you can make a 'leap of faith' and believe me Fear is an aspect to torture.
I don't think I need to prove to you that torture has produced results. I think you need to do the opposite, prove to yourself it hasn't. This isn't a court of law, its not 'innocent until proven guilty'. And until you or someone answers these questions I've posed, I don't have to prove anything to you.
What the hell do you know about it that makes your opinion any stronger than ours?
Why do we torture? Do we enjoy it? If its so inefficient and antiquated why is it used?
Why only in war seemingly? Does it have to do with certain people?
You need to ask yourself why and figure it out. I did and its not my job to educate you if you're not listening. Because I've never stated once, not once, not even given the impression that torture is in any way justified anywhere. That word was only brought up from your side of the argument. I've said from the get-go that there is no 'right' answer here, its a tough situation about the nature of war that you aren't qualified to answer frankly. I hope the shits starting to sink in...
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On May 16 2009 06:53 Wohmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 05:58 Xenixx wrote:What you're saying is times have changed quite significantly from the time when the constitution was written, yet you still uphold it as absolute law. The US Constitution is revised, edited and updated if I'm not mistaken. Let me ask you how you think the US Constitution is so important to Americans? How did our relatively young nation come to be? So there has to be underlying fear, not necessarily torture, yes? Also, it's naive to think that all religious extremists are themselves willing to blow themselves up for their cause. Torture, three things come to mind, Mental instability, Fear, Pain. Again our arguments are centered around how little you know, its not about what we know. What the hell do you bring to the table about terrorism? What the hell do you know about it that makes your opinion any stronger than ours? Yup, coercion MIGHT be more effective than other methods. Therefore, it also MIGHT not be. I just want to know what you all think the US or any developed country may use torture for. Why do we torture? Do we enjoy it? If its so inefficient and antiquated why is it used? Why only in war seemingly? Why do you think? Great, no consensus, so let's not torture people. We don't live a perfect world is what were trying to tell you. I wish humans didn't use torture, I wish a million things but its not fucking reality. Humanity is the problem not America. We used to be the only shining fucking light out there but now its all about criticizing us. The problem I see is with humanity, human nature, mans cruelty towards man not the US specifically. e: this is more directed at anyone who believes the quoted statements, feel free to answer on behalf. Yeah the constitution can be amended. I don't think the constitution should be used as justification for things. Obama wanted to ban assault weapons (don't know what the case is with this now), and people said that it was unconstitutional, therefore he shouldn't be allowed to ban them. Shouldn't the reason to allow assault rifles to be owned be based upon deaths related to assault rifles, for example? You're arguing that all religious fanatics are willing to blow themselves up for their cause? That's what Aegraen was saying. If I misinterpreted what Aegraen was trying to say then ignore what I said. Torture is severe mental or physical pain. Fear isn't necessarily torture. I know what you're saying, that torture has produced results. I don't doubt that it has but I'd like to see some hard evidence that it has, and on a consistent basis. You and Aegraen still haven't given any evidence for the effectiveness of torture. Meaning that you don't torture people who have no information, and that it actually works. I know we don't live in a perfect world but that is not justification for anything. What is the justification for torture? Edit: Spelling.
You assume the people we use 'coercive' techniques on are in fact, innocent. This is fallacious. If you have access to any college library, be it online, or B&M do some research. The apparatus' in fact, extensively background, perview, and other ways check to verify that those interrogated have specific knowledge to be extracted.
Our Intelligence professionals are extremely, smart do not under estimate or belittle their intelligence. They don't do it for 'fun' 'giggles', etc. this is serious fucking business, and we take it that way. It serves only one purpose and that is the preservation of America and its citizens. Sure, there are probably a few that are outside that perview, but the vast majority of collectors, clandestine operators, etc. are not that type of person.
Consistency doesn't matter. People here do not understand intelligence collection methods. As long as it does work, and has, it will and should be used to extract information otherwise unattainable, even if its not 100% successful. Each specific method of extraction, such as MASINT and COMINT serve their purposes, rarely overlapping, and always performing extremely specific functions. It isn't like the information you can obtain from HUMINT can always be obtained by any other sources. When you're talking about high level operatives within terrorist cells this information is ONLY obtainable by interrogation.
Reality is justification, for; reality. Sure, you may not like waterboarding, but it serves its purpose. I do not see waterboarding as torture. Torture is not black and white. To some it is, some it isn't. If we go by your strict definitions, then mental duress is now classed as torture, so, can I please sue the Military for torturing me in my duties? Or, better yet, sue that teacher for torture who puts undue emotional scars by singling me out because I'm the only conservative/libertarian in the classroom and makes me feel uncomfortable (just like those poor poor Al'Qaeda who were thrown in a box/room with insects he didn't like).
Again, this is isn't civilian life. You can't think like a civilian, people will, and do get killed for that.
Edit: Please don't talk about the US Constitution and why it is written as it was. You do not understand governmental history and their functions. The 2nd amendment is there for the people to keep power, as it was intended, and for the government to be precarious towards the population. The government should fear the people; not the other way around. The other way around always leads to Despotism. I like my AR-10 and Sig Sauer, its my right. I like to call your method of thinking, shallow and narrow-minded. Why, one of the countries who has a no gun stance (laws), and yet has one of the highest murder rates in the world (This being ireland). Not only that, philosophically, and as the overall governmental processes, guns in the hands of law abiding citizens (this is pretty much 99% of the people), serves the purpose to limit the governments power which is actually a GOOD thing.
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On May 16 2009 07:05 L wrote:Show nested quote +You should start a "Legalize Drugs" thread or revive one of the older ones for this. I wasn't criticizing the overall concept, just the "this will solve everything" manner in which Ventura presented it. Ventura's position on waterboarding had nothing remotely close to that tone, so I'm starting to wonder why you brought it up given that this topic is about torture. I honestly think this entire thread is an open and shut case against torture until substantial proof of the superior effectiveness of torture is presented. You can create a powerful utilitarian argument for the use of torture only if it actually works, and works better than other options.
I'm sure talking to Al'Qaeda and giving them crimpets will make them spill the beans.
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Thomas-fucking-Jefferson over here.
I like this guy.
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On May 16 2009 08:23 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 06:53 Wohmfg wrote:On May 16 2009 05:58 Xenixx wrote:What you're saying is times have changed quite significantly from the time when the constitution was written, yet you still uphold it as absolute law. The US Constitution is revised, edited and updated if I'm not mistaken. Let me ask you how you think the US Constitution is so important to Americans? How did our relatively young nation come to be? So there has to be underlying fear, not necessarily torture, yes? Also, it's naive to think that all religious extremists are themselves willing to blow themselves up for their cause. Torture, three things come to mind, Mental instability, Fear, Pain. Again our arguments are centered around how little you know, its not about what we know. What the hell do you bring to the table about terrorism? What the hell do you know about it that makes your opinion any stronger than ours? Yup, coercion MIGHT be more effective than other methods. Therefore, it also MIGHT not be. I just want to know what you all think the US or any developed country may use torture for. Why do we torture? Do we enjoy it? If its so inefficient and antiquated why is it used? Why only in war seemingly? Why do you think? Great, no consensus, so let's not torture people. We don't live a perfect world is what were trying to tell you. I wish humans didn't use torture, I wish a million things but its not fucking reality. Humanity is the problem not America. We used to be the only shining fucking light out there but now its all about criticizing us. The problem I see is with humanity, human nature, mans cruelty towards man not the US specifically. e: this is more directed at anyone who believes the quoted statements, feel free to answer on behalf. Yeah the constitution can be amended. I don't think the constitution should be used as justification for things. Obama wanted to ban assault weapons (don't know what the case is with this now), and people said that it was unconstitutional, therefore he shouldn't be allowed to ban them. Shouldn't the reason to allow assault rifles to be owned be based upon deaths related to assault rifles, for example? You're arguing that all religious fanatics are willing to blow themselves up for their cause? That's what Aegraen was saying. If I misinterpreted what Aegraen was trying to say then ignore what I said. Torture is severe mental or physical pain. Fear isn't necessarily torture. I know what you're saying, that torture has produced results. I don't doubt that it has but I'd like to see some hard evidence that it has, and on a consistent basis. You and Aegraen still haven't given any evidence for the effectiveness of torture. Meaning that you don't torture people who have no information, and that it actually works. I know we don't live in a perfect world but that is not justification for anything. What is the justification for torture? Edit: Spelling. You assume the people we use 'coercive' techniques on are in fact, innocent. This is fallacious. If you have access to any college library, be it online, or B&M do some research. The apparatus' in fact, extensively background, perview, and other ways check to verify that those interrogated have specific knowledge to be extracted. Our Intelligence professionals are extremely, smart do not under estimate or belittle their intelligence. They don't do it for 'fun' 'giggles', etc. this is serious fucking business, and we take it that way. It serves only one purpose and that is the preservation of America and its citizens. Sure, there are probably a few that are outside that perview, but the vast majority of collectors, clandestine operators, etc. are not that type of person. Consistency doesn't matter. People here do not understand intelligence collection methods. As long as it does work, and has, it will and should be used to extract information otherwise unattainable, even if its not 100% successful. Each specific method of extraction, such as MASINT and COMINT serve their purposes, rarely overlapping, and always performing extremely specific functions. It isn't like the information you can obtain from HUMINT can always be obtained by any other sources. When you're talking about high level operatives within terrorist cells this information is ONLY obtainable by interrogation. Reality is justification, for; reality. Sure, you may not like waterboarding, but it serves its purpose. I do not see waterboarding as torture. Torture is not black and white. To some it is, some it isn't. If we go by your strict definitions, then mental duress is now classed as torture, so, can I please sue the Military for torturing me in my duties? Or, better yet, sue that teacher for torture who puts undue emotional scars by singling me out because I'm the only conservative/libertarian in the classroom and makes me feel uncomfortable (just like those poor poor Al'Qaeda who were thrown in a box/room with insects he didn't like). Again, this is isn't civilian life. You can't think like a civilian, people will, and do get killed for that. Edit: Please don't talk about the US Constitution and why it is written as it was. You do not understand governmental history and their functions. The 2nd amendment is there for the people to keep power, as it was intended, and for the government to be precarious towards the population. The government should fear the people; not the other way around. The other way around always leads to Despotism. I like my AR-10 and Sig Sauer, its my right. I like to call your method of thinking, shallow and narrow-minded. Why, one of the countries who has a no gun stance (laws), and yet has one of the highest murder rates in the world (This being ireland). Not only that, philosophically, and as the overall governmental processes, guns in the hands of law abiding citizens (this is pretty much 99% of the people), serves the purpose to limit the governments power which is actually a GOOD thing.
I'm going to the toilets to puck, and I will be back in one second to tell you that I hate you.
I hope you are an idiot. Because otherwise you are a monster.
Shame on you.
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On May 16 2009 07:32 Xenixx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 06:53 Wohmfg wrote:On May 16 2009 05:58 Xenixx wrote:What you're saying is times have changed quite significantly from the time when the constitution was written, yet you still uphold it as absolute law. The US Constitution is revised, edited and updated if I'm not mistaken. Let me ask you how you think the US Constitution is so important to Americans? How did our relatively young nation come to be? So there has to be underlying fear, not necessarily torture, yes? Also, it's naive to think that all religious extremists are themselves willing to blow themselves up for their cause. Torture, three things come to mind, Mental instability, Fear, Pain. Again our arguments are centered around how little you know, its not about what we know. What the hell do you bring to the table about terrorism? What the hell do you know about it that makes your opinion any stronger than ours? Yup, coercion MIGHT be more effective than other methods. Therefore, it also MIGHT not be. I just want to know what you all think the US or any developed country may use torture for. Why do we torture? Do we enjoy it? If its so inefficient and antiquated why is it used? Why only in war seemingly? Why do you think? Great, no consensus, so let's not torture people. We don't live a perfect world is what were trying to tell you. I wish humans didn't use torture, I wish a million things but its not fucking reality. Humanity is the problem not America. We used to be the only shining fucking light out there but now its all about criticizing us. The problem I see is with humanity, human nature, mans cruelty towards man not the US specifically. e: this is more directed at anyone who believes the quoted statements, feel free to answer on behalf. Yeah the constitution can be amended. I don't think the constitution should be used as justification for things. Obama wanted to ban assault weapons (don't know what the case is with this now), and people said that it was unconstitutional, therefore he shouldn't be allowed to ban them. Shouldn't the reason to allow assault rifles to be owned be based upon deaths related to assault rifles, for example? You're arguing that all religious fanatics are willing to blow themselves up for their cause? That's what Aegraen was saying. If I misinterpreted what Aegraen was trying to say then ignore what I said. Torture is severe mental or physical pain. Fear isn't necessarily torture. I know what you're saying, that torture has produced results. I don't doubt that it has but I'd like to see some hard evidence that it has, and on a consistent basis. You and Aegraen still haven't given any evidence for the effectiveness of torture. Meaning that you don't torture people who have no information, and that it actually works. I know we don't live in a perfect world but that is not justification for anything. What is the justification for torture? Edit: Spelling. I'll say that I've met these religious fanatics in person, I'll say I've killed them, I'll say I've studied them, but I won't say I understand what they're capable of. I'm also not going to argue exactly what Aegraen is, he has his point of view and I have mine. I think even without torturing you you can make a 'leap of faith' and believe me Fear is an aspect to torture. I don't think I need to prove to you that torture has produced results. I think you need to do the opposite, prove to yourself it hasn't. This isn't a court of law, its not 'innocent until proven guilty'. And until you or someone answers these questions I've posed, I don't have to prove anything to you. What the hell do you know about it that makes your opinion any stronger than ours?Why do we torture? Do we enjoy it? If its so inefficient and antiquated why is it used? Why only in war seemingly? Does it have to do with certain people?You need to ask yourself why and figure it out. I did and its not my job to educate you if you're not listening. Because I've never stated once, not once, not even given the impression that torture is in any way justified anywhere. That word was only brought up from your side of the argument. I've said from the get-go that there is no 'right' answer here, its a tough situation about the nature of war that you aren't qualified to answer frankly. I hope the shits starting to sink in...
I'm trying to educate myself here. If you want me to go and read up by myself then I will. But the point of this forum is to have open, public discussion for all to see. I don't know more than you, but you haven't given me any evidence that shows you know more than me either. I'm not taking this stance of anti-torture because I arbitrarily chose it and then decided to stick to it no matter what, it's because I thought through the pros and cons of torture and came to the conclusion that I disagreed with it being carried out on anyone. I'm still forming my views on many, many things, including this, and a good way to do that is to have discussions with people such as yourself to get other peoples' perspectives, and to learn something, which I already have.
As for your questions:
You torture people to get information. I'm sure 99.99% of people who torture don't enjoy it. It's still used because it gets some results. I already said this. How many results I don't know.
Used only in war because it's used when a lot is at stake and you're dealing with an enemy.
So I answered your questions and torture can still be seen as immoral. It also might have problems, such as getting false information, torturing people with no information etc. (I know Aegraen has addressed some of these points above but I'll get to that.)
I think you do have to prove that torture has produced results, because if it hasn't you've put people through pain that they didn't need. That would be a crime wouldn't it?
I'm not trying to win any argument here, I am wanting to be educated.
Also, are you saying you're not for torture?
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On May 16 2009 08:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 08:23 Aegraen wrote:On May 16 2009 06:53 Wohmfg wrote:On May 16 2009 05:58 Xenixx wrote:What you're saying is times have changed quite significantly from the time when the constitution was written, yet you still uphold it as absolute law. The US Constitution is revised, edited and updated if I'm not mistaken. Let me ask you how you think the US Constitution is so important to Americans? How did our relatively young nation come to be? So there has to be underlying fear, not necessarily torture, yes? Also, it's naive to think that all religious extremists are themselves willing to blow themselves up for their cause. Torture, three things come to mind, Mental instability, Fear, Pain. Again our arguments are centered around how little you know, its not about what we know. What the hell do you bring to the table about terrorism? What the hell do you know about it that makes your opinion any stronger than ours? Yup, coercion MIGHT be more effective than other methods. Therefore, it also MIGHT not be. I just want to know what you all think the US or any developed country may use torture for. Why do we torture? Do we enjoy it? If its so inefficient and antiquated why is it used? Why only in war seemingly? Why do you think? Great, no consensus, so let's not torture people. We don't live a perfect world is what were trying to tell you. I wish humans didn't use torture, I wish a million things but its not fucking reality. Humanity is the problem not America. We used to be the only shining fucking light out there but now its all about criticizing us. The problem I see is with humanity, human nature, mans cruelty towards man not the US specifically. e: this is more directed at anyone who believes the quoted statements, feel free to answer on behalf. Yeah the constitution can be amended. I don't think the constitution should be used as justification for things. Obama wanted to ban assault weapons (don't know what the case is with this now), and people said that it was unconstitutional, therefore he shouldn't be allowed to ban them. Shouldn't the reason to allow assault rifles to be owned be based upon deaths related to assault rifles, for example? You're arguing that all religious fanatics are willing to blow themselves up for their cause? That's what Aegraen was saying. If I misinterpreted what Aegraen was trying to say then ignore what I said. Torture is severe mental or physical pain. Fear isn't necessarily torture. I know what you're saying, that torture has produced results. I don't doubt that it has but I'd like to see some hard evidence that it has, and on a consistent basis. You and Aegraen still haven't given any evidence for the effectiveness of torture. Meaning that you don't torture people who have no information, and that it actually works. I know we don't live in a perfect world but that is not justification for anything. What is the justification for torture? Edit: Spelling. You assume the people we use 'coercive' techniques on are in fact, innocent. This is fallacious. If you have access to any college library, be it online, or B&M do some research. The apparatus' in fact, extensively background, perview, and other ways check to verify that those interrogated have specific knowledge to be extracted. Our Intelligence professionals are extremely, smart do not under estimate or belittle their intelligence. They don't do it for 'fun' 'giggles', etc. this is serious fucking business, and we take it that way. It serves only one purpose and that is the preservation of America and its citizens. Sure, there are probably a few that are outside that perview, but the vast majority of collectors, clandestine operators, etc. are not that type of person. Consistency doesn't matter. People here do not understand intelligence collection methods. As long as it does work, and has, it will and should be used to extract information otherwise unattainable, even if its not 100% successful. Each specific method of extraction, such as MASINT and COMINT serve their purposes, rarely overlapping, and always performing extremely specific functions. It isn't like the information you can obtain from HUMINT can always be obtained by any other sources. When you're talking about high level operatives within terrorist cells this information is ONLY obtainable by interrogation. Reality is justification, for; reality. Sure, you may not like waterboarding, but it serves its purpose. I do not see waterboarding as torture. Torture is not black and white. To some it is, some it isn't. If we go by your strict definitions, then mental duress is now classed as torture, so, can I please sue the Military for torturing me in my duties? Or, better yet, sue that teacher for torture who puts undue emotional scars by singling me out because I'm the only conservative/libertarian in the classroom and makes me feel uncomfortable (just like those poor poor Al'Qaeda who were thrown in a box/room with insects he didn't like). Again, this is isn't civilian life. You can't think like a civilian, people will, and do get killed for that. Edit: Please don't talk about the US Constitution and why it is written as it was. You do not understand governmental history and their functions. The 2nd amendment is there for the people to keep power, as it was intended, and for the government to be precarious towards the population. The government should fear the people; not the other way around. The other way around always leads to Despotism. I like my AR-10 and Sig Sauer, its my right. I like to call your method of thinking, shallow and narrow-minded. Why, one of the countries who has a no gun stance (laws), and yet has one of the highest murder rates in the world (This being ireland). Not only that, philosophically, and as the overall governmental processes, guns in the hands of law abiding citizens (this is pretty much 99% of the people), serves the purpose to limit the governments power which is actually a GOOD thing. I'm going to the toilets to puck, and I will be back in one second to tell you that I hate you. I hope you are an idiot. Because otherwise you are a monster. Shame on you.
Why is it only liberals who defame their opposites? Did I call any liberals here a monster? Did I say I hate them? I call you for what you are. Did I call anyone an idiot when they clearly have at least some grasp of the situation and aren't only leaning on platitudes? I guess I'm a monster too.
Heard it all. The hypocrisy of the left knows no boundries folks. I'd like to see the Obamanots try to take my weapons from me; from my cold dead hands.
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On May 16 2009 08:23 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 06:53 Wohmfg wrote:On May 16 2009 05:58 Xenixx wrote:What you're saying is times have changed quite significantly from the time when the constitution was written, yet you still uphold it as absolute law. The US Constitution is revised, edited and updated if I'm not mistaken. Let me ask you how you think the US Constitution is so important to Americans? How did our relatively young nation come to be? So there has to be underlying fear, not necessarily torture, yes? Also, it's naive to think that all religious extremists are themselves willing to blow themselves up for their cause. Torture, three things come to mind, Mental instability, Fear, Pain. Again our arguments are centered around how little you know, its not about what we know. What the hell do you bring to the table about terrorism? What the hell do you know about it that makes your opinion any stronger than ours? Yup, coercion MIGHT be more effective than other methods. Therefore, it also MIGHT not be. I just want to know what you all think the US or any developed country may use torture for. Why do we torture? Do we enjoy it? If its so inefficient and antiquated why is it used? Why only in war seemingly? Why do you think? Great, no consensus, so let's not torture people. We don't live a perfect world is what were trying to tell you. I wish humans didn't use torture, I wish a million things but its not fucking reality. Humanity is the problem not America. We used to be the only shining fucking light out there but now its all about criticizing us. The problem I see is with humanity, human nature, mans cruelty towards man not the US specifically. e: this is more directed at anyone who believes the quoted statements, feel free to answer on behalf. Yeah the constitution can be amended. I don't think the constitution should be used as justification for things. Obama wanted to ban assault weapons (don't know what the case is with this now), and people said that it was unconstitutional, therefore he shouldn't be allowed to ban them. Shouldn't the reason to allow assault rifles to be owned be based upon deaths related to assault rifles, for example? You're arguing that all religious fanatics are willing to blow themselves up for their cause? That's what Aegraen was saying. If I misinterpreted what Aegraen was trying to say then ignore what I said. Torture is severe mental or physical pain. Fear isn't necessarily torture. I know what you're saying, that torture has produced results. I don't doubt that it has but I'd like to see some hard evidence that it has, and on a consistent basis. You and Aegraen still haven't given any evidence for the effectiveness of torture. Meaning that you don't torture people who have no information, and that it actually works. I know we don't live in a perfect world but that is not justification for anything. What is the justification for torture? Edit: Spelling. You assume the people we use 'coercive' techniques on are in fact, innocent. This is fallacious. If you have access to any college library, be it online, or B&M do some research. The apparatus' in fact, extensively background, perview, and other ways check to verify that those interrogated have specific knowledge to be extracted. Our Intelligence professionals are extremely, smart do not under estimate or belittle their intelligence. They don't do it for 'fun' 'giggles', etc. this is serious fucking business, and we take it that way. It serves only one purpose and that is the preservation of America and its citizens. Sure, there are probably a few that are outside that perview, but the vast majority of collectors, clandestine operators, etc. are not that type of person. Consistency doesn't matter. People here do not understand intelligence collection methods. As long as it does work, and has, it will and should be used to extract information otherwise unattainable, even if its not 100% successful. Each specific method of extraction, such as MASINT and COMINT serve their purposes, rarely overlapping, and always performing extremely specific functions. It isn't like the information you can obtain from HUMINT can always be obtained by any other sources. When you're talking about high level operatives within terrorist cells this information is ONLY obtainable by interrogation. Reality is justification, for; reality. Sure, you may not like waterboarding, but it serves its purpose. I do not see waterboarding as torture. Torture is not black and white. To some it is, some it isn't. If we go by your strict definitions, then mental duress is now classed as torture, so, can I please sue the Military for torturing me in my duties? Or, better yet, sue that teacher for torture who puts undue emotional scars by singling me out because I'm the only conservative/libertarian in the classroom and makes me feel uncomfortable (just like those poor poor Al'Qaeda who were thrown in a box/room with insects he didn't like). Again, this is isn't civilian life. You can't think like a civilian, people will, and do get killed for that. Edit: Please don't talk about the US Constitution and why it is written as it was. You do not understand governmental history and their functions. The 2nd amendment is there for the people to keep power, as it was intended, and for the government to be precarious towards the population. The government should fear the people; not the other way around. The other way around always leads to Despotism. I like my AR-10 and Sig Sauer, its my right. I like to call your method of thinking, shallow and narrow-minded. Why, one of the countries who has a no gun stance (laws), and yet has one of the highest murder rates in the world (This being ireland). Not only that, philosophically, and as the overall governmental processes, guns in the hands of law abiding citizens (this is pretty much 99% of the people), serves the purpose to limit the governments power which is actually a GOOD thing.
If it's not consistent then I can't agree with torture.
I completely understand the constitution and the reasons it was written. I also agree with a lot of the things written in it, including the right to bear arms. I think gun control laws should be more relaxed in most places in the world, and I think America's gun control laws are fine. I know how gun control affects crime. What part of my thinking is shallow? Narrow-minded? All I was saying is that things need to be reviewed on a regular basis and not just accepted, simply because they're on the constitution. I would say that despotism leads to fear of the government, not that fear of the government leads to despotism.
Also that, as much as I am in favour of lax gun control laws, I don't think the governments of any of the civilised world is a violent threat to the people.
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On May 16 2009 08:35 HeadBangaa wrote:
Thomas-fucking-Jefferson over here.
I like this guy.
"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine" - Long live the Republic for which it stands!
"A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government." - Only if we could heed and abide by these wise and inciteful words
"Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto." - If only....Robert Taft please!
"Dependence begets subservience and venality, suffocates the germ of virtue, and prepares fit tools for the designs of ambition." - Says it all about the Welfare State
"Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves are its only safe depositories." - This is what we have today
"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny." - That is why the people are entrusted with power, and as such hath shewn that the 2nd amendment is our only string to Liberty, Life, and Freedom
I could go on and on and on. I love Thomas Jefferson, I wish him and the founder's were around today.....All I can do is fight the good fight, and be at peace knowing I fought for my Freedom and for my families.
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On May 16 2009 08:59 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 08:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 16 2009 08:23 Aegraen wrote:On May 16 2009 06:53 Wohmfg wrote:On May 16 2009 05:58 Xenixx wrote:What you're saying is times have changed quite significantly from the time when the constitution was written, yet you still uphold it as absolute law. The US Constitution is revised, edited and updated if I'm not mistaken. Let me ask you how you think the US Constitution is so important to Americans? How did our relatively young nation come to be? So there has to be underlying fear, not necessarily torture, yes? Also, it's naive to think that all religious extremists are themselves willing to blow themselves up for their cause. Torture, three things come to mind, Mental instability, Fear, Pain. Again our arguments are centered around how little you know, its not about what we know. What the hell do you bring to the table about terrorism? What the hell do you know about it that makes your opinion any stronger than ours? Yup, coercion MIGHT be more effective than other methods. Therefore, it also MIGHT not be. I just want to know what you all think the US or any developed country may use torture for. Why do we torture? Do we enjoy it? If its so inefficient and antiquated why is it used? Why only in war seemingly? Why do you think? Great, no consensus, so let's not torture people. We don't live a perfect world is what were trying to tell you. I wish humans didn't use torture, I wish a million things but its not fucking reality. Humanity is the problem not America. We used to be the only shining fucking light out there but now its all about criticizing us. The problem I see is with humanity, human nature, mans cruelty towards man not the US specifically. e: this is more directed at anyone who believes the quoted statements, feel free to answer on behalf. Yeah the constitution can be amended. I don't think the constitution should be used as justification for things. Obama wanted to ban assault weapons (don't know what the case is with this now), and people said that it was unconstitutional, therefore he shouldn't be allowed to ban them. Shouldn't the reason to allow assault rifles to be owned be based upon deaths related to assault rifles, for example? You're arguing that all religious fanatics are willing to blow themselves up for their cause? That's what Aegraen was saying. If I misinterpreted what Aegraen was trying to say then ignore what I said. Torture is severe mental or physical pain. Fear isn't necessarily torture. I know what you're saying, that torture has produced results. I don't doubt that it has but I'd like to see some hard evidence that it has, and on a consistent basis. You and Aegraen still haven't given any evidence for the effectiveness of torture. Meaning that you don't torture people who have no information, and that it actually works. I know we don't live in a perfect world but that is not justification for anything. What is the justification for torture? Edit: Spelling. You assume the people we use 'coercive' techniques on are in fact, innocent. This is fallacious. If you have access to any college library, be it online, or B&M do some research. The apparatus' in fact, extensively background, perview, and other ways check to verify that those interrogated have specific knowledge to be extracted. Our Intelligence professionals are extremely, smart do not under estimate or belittle their intelligence. They don't do it for 'fun' 'giggles', etc. this is serious fucking business, and we take it that way. It serves only one purpose and that is the preservation of America and its citizens. Sure, there are probably a few that are outside that perview, but the vast majority of collectors, clandestine operators, etc. are not that type of person. Consistency doesn't matter. People here do not understand intelligence collection methods. As long as it does work, and has, it will and should be used to extract information otherwise unattainable, even if its not 100% successful. Each specific method of extraction, such as MASINT and COMINT serve their purposes, rarely overlapping, and always performing extremely specific functions. It isn't like the information you can obtain from HUMINT can always be obtained by any other sources. When you're talking about high level operatives within terrorist cells this information is ONLY obtainable by interrogation. Reality is justification, for; reality. Sure, you may not like waterboarding, but it serves its purpose. I do not see waterboarding as torture. Torture is not black and white. To some it is, some it isn't. If we go by your strict definitions, then mental duress is now classed as torture, so, can I please sue the Military for torturing me in my duties? Or, better yet, sue that teacher for torture who puts undue emotional scars by singling me out because I'm the only conservative/libertarian in the classroom and makes me feel uncomfortable (just like those poor poor Al'Qaeda who were thrown in a box/room with insects he didn't like). Again, this is isn't civilian life. You can't think like a civilian, people will, and do get killed for that. Edit: Please don't talk about the US Constitution and why it is written as it was. You do not understand governmental history and their functions. The 2nd amendment is there for the people to keep power, as it was intended, and for the government to be precarious towards the population. The government should fear the people; not the other way around. The other way around always leads to Despotism. I like my AR-10 and Sig Sauer, its my right. I like to call your method of thinking, shallow and narrow-minded. Why, one of the countries who has a no gun stance (laws), and yet has one of the highest murder rates in the world (This being ireland). Not only that, philosophically, and as the overall governmental processes, guns in the hands of law abiding citizens (this is pretty much 99% of the people), serves the purpose to limit the governments power which is actually a GOOD thing. I'm going to the toilets to puck, and I will be back in one second to tell you that I hate you. I hope you are an idiot. Because otherwise you are a monster. Shame on you. Why is it only liberals who defame their opposites? Did I call any liberals here a monster? Did I say I hate them? I call you for what you are. Did I call anyone an idiot when they clearly have at least some grasp of the situation and aren't only leaning on platitudes? I guess I'm a monster too. Heard it all. The hypocrisy of the left knows no boundries folks. I'd like to see the Obamanots try to take my weapons from me; from my cold dead hands.
I am not a liberal. I don't support Obama.
You don't know anything about me so don't repeat what fox news told you about american left side. It doesn't apply to me. The only opinion I can give you is that I am certain than US have done much much more harm than muslim extremist, and that I believe that Republicans are as ignorant, as arrogant, as fanatic and as dangerous as Al Qaeda's bastards.
I'm not a hypocrite.
Someone who support torture is either a complete moron or a fucking bastard. Chose.
You don't think very intelligent anyway: you discusse with slogans, not with ideas. And everything you say seems dictated by fear, like your last sentence. I won't waste my time discussing with you. I'm ashamed to be human when I think there is people like you.
Get lost.
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dude biff please stop posting in this thread
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On May 16 2009 09:06 Wohmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 08:23 Aegraen wrote:On May 16 2009 06:53 Wohmfg wrote:On May 16 2009 05:58 Xenixx wrote:What you're saying is times have changed quite significantly from the time when the constitution was written, yet you still uphold it as absolute law. The US Constitution is revised, edited and updated if I'm not mistaken. Let me ask you how you think the US Constitution is so important to Americans? How did our relatively young nation come to be? So there has to be underlying fear, not necessarily torture, yes? Also, it's naive to think that all religious extremists are themselves willing to blow themselves up for their cause. Torture, three things come to mind, Mental instability, Fear, Pain. Again our arguments are centered around how little you know, its not about what we know. What the hell do you bring to the table about terrorism? What the hell do you know about it that makes your opinion any stronger than ours? Yup, coercion MIGHT be more effective than other methods. Therefore, it also MIGHT not be. I just want to know what you all think the US or any developed country may use torture for. Why do we torture? Do we enjoy it? If its so inefficient and antiquated why is it used? Why only in war seemingly? Why do you think? Great, no consensus, so let's not torture people. We don't live a perfect world is what were trying to tell you. I wish humans didn't use torture, I wish a million things but its not fucking reality. Humanity is the problem not America. We used to be the only shining fucking light out there but now its all about criticizing us. The problem I see is with humanity, human nature, mans cruelty towards man not the US specifically. e: this is more directed at anyone who believes the quoted statements, feel free to answer on behalf. Yeah the constitution can be amended. I don't think the constitution should be used as justification for things. Obama wanted to ban assault weapons (don't know what the case is with this now), and people said that it was unconstitutional, therefore he shouldn't be allowed to ban them. Shouldn't the reason to allow assault rifles to be owned be based upon deaths related to assault rifles, for example? You're arguing that all religious fanatics are willing to blow themselves up for their cause? That's what Aegraen was saying. If I misinterpreted what Aegraen was trying to say then ignore what I said. Torture is severe mental or physical pain. Fear isn't necessarily torture. I know what you're saying, that torture has produced results. I don't doubt that it has but I'd like to see some hard evidence that it has, and on a consistent basis. You and Aegraen still haven't given any evidence for the effectiveness of torture. Meaning that you don't torture people who have no information, and that it actually works. I know we don't live in a perfect world but that is not justification for anything. What is the justification for torture? Edit: Spelling. You assume the people we use 'coercive' techniques on are in fact, innocent. This is fallacious. If you have access to any college library, be it online, or B&M do some research. The apparatus' in fact, extensively background, perview, and other ways check to verify that those interrogated have specific knowledge to be extracted. Our Intelligence professionals are extremely, smart do not under estimate or belittle their intelligence. They don't do it for 'fun' 'giggles', etc. this is serious fucking business, and we take it that way. It serves only one purpose and that is the preservation of America and its citizens. Sure, there are probably a few that are outside that perview, but the vast majority of collectors, clandestine operators, etc. are not that type of person. Consistency doesn't matter. People here do not understand intelligence collection methods. As long as it does work, and has, it will and should be used to extract information otherwise unattainable, even if its not 100% successful. Each specific method of extraction, such as MASINT and COMINT serve their purposes, rarely overlapping, and always performing extremely specific functions. It isn't like the information you can obtain from HUMINT can always be obtained by any other sources. When you're talking about high level operatives within terrorist cells this information is ONLY obtainable by interrogation. Reality is justification, for; reality. Sure, you may not like waterboarding, but it serves its purpose. I do not see waterboarding as torture. Torture is not black and white. To some it is, some it isn't. If we go by your strict definitions, then mental duress is now classed as torture, so, can I please sue the Military for torturing me in my duties? Or, better yet, sue that teacher for torture who puts undue emotional scars by singling me out because I'm the only conservative/libertarian in the classroom and makes me feel uncomfortable (just like those poor poor Al'Qaeda who were thrown in a box/room with insects he didn't like). Again, this is isn't civilian life. You can't think like a civilian, people will, and do get killed for that. Edit: Please don't talk about the US Constitution and why it is written as it was. You do not understand governmental history and their functions. The 2nd amendment is there for the people to keep power, as it was intended, and for the government to be precarious towards the population. The government should fear the people; not the other way around. The other way around always leads to Despotism. I like my AR-10 and Sig Sauer, its my right. I like to call your method of thinking, shallow and narrow-minded. Why, one of the countries who has a no gun stance (laws), and yet has one of the highest murder rates in the world (This being ireland). Not only that, philosophically, and as the overall governmental processes, guns in the hands of law abiding citizens (this is pretty much 99% of the people), serves the purpose to limit the governments power which is actually a GOOD thing. If it's not consistent then I can't agree with torture. I completely understand the constitution and the reasons it was written. I also agree with a lot of the things written in it, including the right to bear arms. I think gun control laws should be more relaxed in most places in the world, and I think America's gun control laws are fine. I know how gun control affects crime. What part of my thinking is shallow? Narrow-minded? All I was saying is that things need to be reviewed on a regular basis and not just accepted, simply because they're on the constitution. I would say that despotism leads to fear of the government, not that fear of the government leads to despotism. Also that, as much as I am in favour of lax gun control laws, I don't think the governments of any of the civilised world is a violent threat to the people.
First off the Constitution has been reviewed extensively for years, first as the Articles of Confederation and then, as it is was written. The Founder's were some of the wisest, smartest, men to ever grace this planet. If you don't count their review of the work in the Constitution, then nothing can ever constitute review, because no one living today can measure up to them; not even within miles, kilometers, phathoms...
How many politicians today are philosophical in nature? How many understand human nature, its societal impacts, and other repercussions? How many understand governmental functions that preserve life, liberty, and freedom? No, what we have today are a bunch of two-faced lawyers who will take everything you have to behind your back (AKA 'Stimulus').
Secondly, no interrogation method is consistent because none of them work all the time on all cases, or even some of the time, on most cases. It is a case by case basis. So, in essence, you are against any interrogation method. Think about that for a second.
No, it is the Government with no fear of the people that leads to Despotism. That is why the 2nd amendment was written, and why it is the first amendment after our most basic and unalieable rights. They saw how important it was. It was the only reason we even stood a chance against the British.
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On May 16 2009 09:14 zizou21 wrote:
dude biff please stop posting in this thread
I am really sorry, but I feel I should react when someone says it's completely normal to torture people. The whole thing is fucking surreal.
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On May 16 2009 09:10 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 08:59 Aegraen wrote:On May 16 2009 08:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 16 2009 08:23 Aegraen wrote:On May 16 2009 06:53 Wohmfg wrote:On May 16 2009 05:58 Xenixx wrote:What you're saying is times have changed quite significantly from the time when the constitution was written, yet you still uphold it as absolute law. The US Constitution is revised, edited and updated if I'm not mistaken. Let me ask you how you think the US Constitution is so important to Americans? How did our relatively young nation come to be? So there has to be underlying fear, not necessarily torture, yes? Also, it's naive to think that all religious extremists are themselves willing to blow themselves up for their cause. Torture, three things come to mind, Mental instability, Fear, Pain. Again our arguments are centered around how little you know, its not about what we know. What the hell do you bring to the table about terrorism? What the hell do you know about it that makes your opinion any stronger than ours? Yup, coercion MIGHT be more effective than other methods. Therefore, it also MIGHT not be. I just want to know what you all think the US or any developed country may use torture for. Why do we torture? Do we enjoy it? If its so inefficient and antiquated why is it used? Why only in war seemingly? Why do you think? Great, no consensus, so let's not torture people. We don't live a perfect world is what were trying to tell you. I wish humans didn't use torture, I wish a million things but its not fucking reality. Humanity is the problem not America. We used to be the only shining fucking light out there but now its all about criticizing us. The problem I see is with humanity, human nature, mans cruelty towards man not the US specifically. e: this is more directed at anyone who believes the quoted statements, feel free to answer on behalf. Yeah the constitution can be amended. I don't think the constitution should be used as justification for things. Obama wanted to ban assault weapons (don't know what the case is with this now), and people said that it was unconstitutional, therefore he shouldn't be allowed to ban them. Shouldn't the reason to allow assault rifles to be owned be based upon deaths related to assault rifles, for example? You're arguing that all religious fanatics are willing to blow themselves up for their cause? That's what Aegraen was saying. If I misinterpreted what Aegraen was trying to say then ignore what I said. Torture is severe mental or physical pain. Fear isn't necessarily torture. I know what you're saying, that torture has produced results. I don't doubt that it has but I'd like to see some hard evidence that it has, and on a consistent basis. You and Aegraen still haven't given any evidence for the effectiveness of torture. Meaning that you don't torture people who have no information, and that it actually works. I know we don't live in a perfect world but that is not justification for anything. What is the justification for torture? Edit: Spelling. You assume the people we use 'coercive' techniques on are in fact, innocent. This is fallacious. If you have access to any college library, be it online, or B&M do some research. The apparatus' in fact, extensively background, perview, and other ways check to verify that those interrogated have specific knowledge to be extracted. Our Intelligence professionals are extremely, smart do not under estimate or belittle their intelligence. They don't do it for 'fun' 'giggles', etc. this is serious fucking business, and we take it that way. It serves only one purpose and that is the preservation of America and its citizens. Sure, there are probably a few that are outside that perview, but the vast majority of collectors, clandestine operators, etc. are not that type of person. Consistency doesn't matter. People here do not understand intelligence collection methods. As long as it does work, and has, it will and should be used to extract information otherwise unattainable, even if its not 100% successful. Each specific method of extraction, such as MASINT and COMINT serve their purposes, rarely overlapping, and always performing extremely specific functions. It isn't like the information you can obtain from HUMINT can always be obtained by any other sources. When you're talking about high level operatives within terrorist cells this information is ONLY obtainable by interrogation. Reality is justification, for; reality. Sure, you may not like waterboarding, but it serves its purpose. I do not see waterboarding as torture. Torture is not black and white. To some it is, some it isn't. If we go by your strict definitions, then mental duress is now classed as torture, so, can I please sue the Military for torturing me in my duties? Or, better yet, sue that teacher for torture who puts undue emotional scars by singling me out because I'm the only conservative/libertarian in the classroom and makes me feel uncomfortable (just like those poor poor Al'Qaeda who were thrown in a box/room with insects he didn't like). Again, this is isn't civilian life. You can't think like a civilian, people will, and do get killed for that. Edit: Please don't talk about the US Constitution and why it is written as it was. You do not understand governmental history and their functions. The 2nd amendment is there for the people to keep power, as it was intended, and for the government to be precarious towards the population. The government should fear the people; not the other way around. The other way around always leads to Despotism. I like my AR-10 and Sig Sauer, its my right. I like to call your method of thinking, shallow and narrow-minded. Why, one of the countries who has a no gun stance (laws), and yet has one of the highest murder rates in the world (This being ireland). Not only that, philosophically, and as the overall governmental processes, guns in the hands of law abiding citizens (this is pretty much 99% of the people), serves the purpose to limit the governments power which is actually a GOOD thing. I'm going to the toilets to puck, and I will be back in one second to tell you that I hate you. I hope you are an idiot. Because otherwise you are a monster. Shame on you. Why is it only liberals who defame their opposites? Did I call any liberals here a monster? Did I say I hate them? I call you for what you are. Did I call anyone an idiot when they clearly have at least some grasp of the situation and aren't only leaning on platitudes? I guess I'm a monster too. Heard it all. The hypocrisy of the left knows no boundries folks. I'd like to see the Obamanots try to take my weapons from me; from my cold dead hands. I am not a liberal. I don't support Obama. You don't know anything about me so don't repeat what fox news told you about american left side. It doesn't apply to me. The only opinion I can give you is that I am certain than US have done much much more harm than muslim extremist, and that I believe that Republicans are as ignorant, as arrogant, as fanatic and as dangerous as Al Qaeda's bastards. I'm not a hypocrite. Someone who support torture is either a complete moron or a fucking bastard. Chose. You don't think very intelligent anyway: you discusse with slogans, not with ideas. And everything you say seems dictated by fear, like your last sentence. I won't waste my time discussing with you. I'm ashamed to be human when I think there is people like you. Get lost.
Survival is not fear. Even the 'conservatives' within France are liberals by US standards, though day by day US liberals are eclipsing what it means in the EU sense with each passing hour.
I hardly watch Fox News. I only watch Glenn Beck every now and then. I listen to mostly Mark Levin and Rush and read.
I'm not even going to address the second part....I will say however, please do not ever say anything about the U.S. education system, it may come back to bite you in the derier (sp?).
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why would you admit to listening to rush?
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On May 16 2009 09:17 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 09:14 zizou21 wrote:
dude biff please stop posting in this thread I am really sorry, but I feel I should react when someone says it's completely normal to torture people. The whole thing is fucking surreal.
You yet again fail to grasp that I'm not advocated across the border 'torture'. I don't find waterboarding torture. It is not harmful in any way shape or form. Ask just about every military personnel subjected to it..It is nothing, but perception and the way perception plays on your fears.
I am against torture as employed by Spanish Inquisition, Salem Witch Trials, NKVD, VC, Pol Pot, Japanese doctors and scientists in WWII, etc.
Coercive techniques are not torture, though however subjective the word is, you probably believe throwing someone in a room filled with benign spiders as torture if someone has arachnophobia. So, yea, I am I guess a 'monster' according to you, even though I'm not hurting a single person, yet in the process I am potentially saving many, and if only one, makes it worth it.
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EPT
