EPTCondoleezza Rice on "torture" / waterboarding. - Page 12
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Manit0u
Poland17257 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On May 15 2009 14:12 L wrote: Being a populist discredits his opinion on waterboarding after having been subjected to it? K. Yes. There's his opinion, and then there's what he wants the public to see as his opinion. It makes him look fantastic to say what he's saying in this case, so yes you should be mindful of his populist stances. In this case they might be the same, but in others they're surely different. | ||
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Syntax Lost
Finland86 Posts
On May 15 2009 06:25 zizou21 wrote: really?.. like, can you not control yourself from posting absolute shit? Is there some dispute over the validity of any of my claims? There shouldn't be, since these things are easily checked. The point behind the statement isn't some blanket claim about the US or any of its citizens, but about Aegraen high regards for his constitution and founding fathers and illustrating what that really means. The most amusing thing about Aegraen is his claims that he's studying for his Master's degree in Intelligence. You would think that someone who has gotten that far acadmically would know something about referencing, supporting an argument and evidence, none of which he ever provides. Based solely on his own authority, we're supposed to believe that waterboarding is not torture and we're pussy free-thinking liberal socialists singing kumbaya for ever disagreeing with his say so. We're also supposed to believe that torture has been effective method for obtaining information, based again purely on his say so. I would think that someone involved in Intelligence would have sources readily available for verifying these claims, especially when challenged to provide evidence like this. However, we still seem to be waiting after 11 pages. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7890 Posts
On May 15 2009 21:25 Syntax Lost wrote: Is there some dispute over the validity of any of my claims? There shouldn't be, since these things are easily checked. The point behind the statement isn't some blanket claim about the US or any of its citizens, but about Aegraen high regards for his constitution and founding fathers and illustrating what that really means. The most amusing thing about Aegraen is his claims that he's studying for his Master's degree in Intelligence. You would think that someone who has gotten that far acadmically would know something about referencing, supporting an argument and evidence, none of which he ever provides. Based solely on his own authority, we're supposed to believe that waterboarding is not torture and we're pussy free-thinking liberal socialists singing kumbaya for ever disagreeing with his say so. We're also supposed to believe that torture has been effective method for obtaining information, based again purely on his say so. I would think that someone involved in Intelligence would have sources readily available for verifying these claims, especially when challenged to provide evidence like this. However, we still seem to be waiting after 11 pages. Amen. | ||
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Diomedes
464 Posts
On May 15 2009 12:46 Jibba wrote: Ventura is fun to listen to, but he's just a populist, which is always dangerous. He's saying organized religion is a scam and some drugs need to be legalized. How is that populist? Just because he's a normal person turned polician that doesn't mean he's a popilist. No, the real dangerous populists are the elites that use their intelligence and rhetoric skills to trick the electorate into thinking they are some kind of rebel against the mainstream, making silly promises and getting the voters angry in the mean time. All the while just saying what they want to hear. All the cheap shots about problems that are hard to solve, claiming the mainstream just refuse to care and proposing solutions that can't ever happen by saying some hard line stuff. Like finally solving all crime by increasing punishments. Or claiming you are going to throw out all illegal immigrants. Nonsense like that. Just to get into power. | ||
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Xenixx
United States499 Posts
On May 15 2009 23:12 Diomedes wrote: He's saying organized religion is a scam and some drugs need to be legalized. How is that populist? Just because he's a normal person turned polician that doesn't mean he's a popilist. No, the real dangerous populists are the elites that use their intelligence and rhetoric skills to trick the electorate into thinking they are some kind of rebel against the mainstream, making silly promises and getting the voters angry in the mean time. All the while just saying what they want to hear. All the cheap shots about problems that are hard to solve, claiming the mainstream just refuse to care and proposing solutions that can't ever happen by saying some hard line stuff. Like finally solving all crime by increasing punishments. Or claiming you are going to throw out all illegal immigrants. Nonsense like that. Just to get into power. He's probably saying hes a populist because a lot of us don't trust politicians. Ventura is a politician, I like him, I respect him, but I don't fully trust him because hes a politician. | ||
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Xenixx
United States499 Posts
On May 15 2009 21:25 Syntax Lost wrote: Is there some dispute over the validity of any of my claims? There shouldn't be, since these things are easily checked. The point behind the statement isn't some blanket claim about the US or any of its citizens, but about Aegraen high regards for his constitution and founding fathers and illustrating what that really means. The most amusing thing about Aegraen is his claims that he's studying for his Master's degree in Intelligence. You would think that someone who has gotten that far acadmically would know something about referencing, supporting an argument and evidence, none of which he ever provides. Based solely on his own authority, we're supposed to believe that waterboarding is not torture and we're pussy free-thinking liberal socialists singing kumbaya for ever disagreeing with his say so. We're also supposed to believe that torture has been effective method for obtaining information, based again purely on his say so. I would think that someone involved in Intelligence would have sources readily available for verifying these claims, especially when challenged to provide evidence like this. However, we still seem to be waiting after 11 pages. The US Constitution is who we are as a nation. It seems equally strange that Europeans forget that. | ||
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Xenixx
United States499 Posts
e: should probably close this, completely ceased to be a discussion on torture and has turned into a death to America thread. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10705 Posts
You for sure are strange folks over there ^^. The constitution of my country for me is just the most important book of state law. nothing more. | ||
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Wohmfg
United Kingdom1292 Posts
On May 16 2009 00:08 Xenixx wrote: The US Constitution is who we are as a nation. It seems equally strange that Europeans forget that. It seems quite strange to us that you hold something written hundreds of years ago in a completely different political and economic climate, to be the infallible law. Would it not be more sensible to put forth arguments based on their merits and not whether they're on the constitution? How exactly does the US Constitution define you as a nation? Is it necessary? | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On May 15 2009 23:12 Diomedes wrote: He's saying organized religion is a scam and some drugs need to be legalized. How is that populist? Just because he's a normal person turned polician that doesn't mean he's a popilist. No, the real dangerous populists are the elites that use their intelligence and rhetoric skills to trick the electorate into thinking they are some kind of rebel against the mainstream, making silly promises and getting the voters angry in the mean time. All the while just saying what they want to hear. All the cheap shots about problems that are hard to solve, claiming the mainstream just refuse to care and proposing solutions that can't ever happen by saying some hard line stuff. Like finally solving all crime by increasing punishments. Or claiming you are going to throw out all illegal immigrants. Nonsense like that. Just to get into power. All of that is populism, and Ventura is guilty of it as well. He gives simple 1 line answers to problems in that interview, and it should be obvious from that that he's projecting himself rather than coming up with real solutions to complex problems. "I know how to fix _________" were his words, I believe. | ||
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Diomedes
464 Posts
So it's not populism. It's just giving a solution no one likes. | ||
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L
Canada4732 Posts
It makes him look fantastic to say what he's saying in this case Taking a stance on an issue which he has personal experience with makes him look 'fantastic'? I'm pretty sure that you know this is ad-hominem territory.I'd probably lend a lot more credence to your dismissal if Ventura was running for public office and it was an election year. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On May 16 2009 02:06 Diomedes wrote: You can't deny that legalizing drugs would put all the organized crime in Mexico out of business. It is really that simple. No one really disputes that. So it's not populism. It's just giving a solution no one likes. Yes, I can. There's human trafficking, protection, black markets, new crime, etc. Find me one expert that actually believes legalizing drugs will end all the organized crime in Mexico. When prohibition ended, did all the gangsters suddenly decide to give up their territory and pick up honest jobs? I seriously can't believe you just posted that, so I'm glad I'm quoting it in time before an edit. Could it help? Sure. Is it way more complicated than that? Fuck, yes. | ||
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Diomedes
464 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On May 16 2009 02:10 L wrote: Taking a stance on an issue which he has personal experience with makes him look 'fantastic'? I'm pretty sure that you know this is ad-hominem territory. I'd probably lend a lot more credence to your dismissal if Ventura was running for public office and it was an election year. It's not even close to ad hominem. I'm identifying a potential selection bias in the things he chooses to say. It doesn't even need to be an election year, he could be doing it for a future election or simply to preserve his reputation. I'm certainly not denying that waterboarding is torture, I'm pointing out that throughout his career, whether consciously or subconsciously, Ventura has been a populist and it comes through in the interview. I tend to be skeptical of people who seek a camera, and I think everyone should. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On May 16 2009 02:16 Diomedes wrote: You missed the point. No wonder you think I am going to edit it. What has any of that got to do with drugs? On May 16 2009 02:06 Diomedes wrote: You can't deny that legalizing drugs would put all the organized crime in Mexico out of business. It is really that simple. No one really disputes that. On May 16 2009 02:06 Diomedes wrote: You can't deny that legalizing drugs would put all the organized crime in Mexico out of business. It is really that simple. No one really disputes that. On May 16 2009 02:06 Diomedes wrote: It's a complex problem. One change won't correct it. Ventura talks as if it will. If the exact same words came out of Rush Limbaugh's mouth, what would you think of it? I think you're judging the personality more than the content.You can't deny that legalizing drugs would put all the organized crime in Mexico out of business. It is really that simple. No one really disputes that. | ||
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Diomedes
464 Posts
[edit] lol you edited. I don't even know who Rush Limbaugh is. Fact remains that people want to ban drugs regardless of the business oppertunities it creates of criminals. That's the reason it's not lifted. They believe drugs should not be freely available and that is more important than the problems it creates. It's not a complex issue regarding what it would do to organized crime. | ||
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SK.Testie
Canada11084 Posts
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
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