|
On March 17 2012 21:56 Doublemint wrote: I am quite aware of how intransparent this period of time still is, especially finding evidence after 70(!) years. I read about Demjanjuk in newspapers when it actually was "news" quite some time ago, and were not aware of him being found not guilty. However - being acquitted by jurisprudence does not necessarily mean he is innocent - I could be as wrong as you. That does not take away the fact that many nazis did escape and were not prosecuted properly, so in a sense it IS understandable that people do find some kind of satisfaction if someone involved in the most heinous crimes in the history of the world met his maker.
I personally want nothing. It´s over this way or another.
So you're saying that you have no clue whether he is guilty or not but then you add that it's understandable that people (hint: you) find satisfaction in him dieing?
So, despite being unsure, the pure assumption that he's guilty gives you the right to say "I hope he gets tortured in hell for all eternity"?
That chain of thought is no inch better than "This person is jewish, I think he deserves to die".
Yes, lots of nazis escaped punishment and I think they should have been getting the punishment they deserved. However, that is no reason to with hunt on someone who COULD very well be innocent. Not to mention the fact that the definitions of "war crime" and "war hero" are very, very close to each other. It's just that the winning side, in general, hates to admit their wrong doings and loves to point out those of the losing side.
|
He should suffer regardless of age. Justice, must be served.
|
On March 17 2012 22:18 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 21:56 Doublemint wrote: I am quite aware of how intransparent this period of time still is, especially finding evidence after 70(!) years. I read about Demjanjuk in newspapers when it actually was "news" quite some time ago, and were not aware of him being found not guilty. However - being acquitted by jurisprudence does not necessarily mean he is innocent - I could be as wrong as you. That does not take away the fact that many nazis did escape and were not prosecuted properly, so in a sense it IS understandable that people do find some kind of satisfaction if someone involved in the most heinous crimes in the history of the world met his maker.
I personally want nothing. It´s over this way or another. So you're saying that you have no clue whether he is guilty or not but then you add that it's understandable that people (hint: you) find satisfaction in him dieing? So, despite being unsure, the pure assumption that he's guilty gives you the right to say "I hope he gets tortured in hell for all eternity"? That chain of thought is no inch better than "This person is jewish, I think he deserves to die". Yes, lots of nazis escaped punishment and I think they should have been getting the punishment they deserved. However, that is no reason to with hunt on someone who COULD very well be innocent. Not to mention the fact that the definitions of "war crime" and "war hero" are very, very close to each other. It's just that the winning side, in general, hates to admit their wrong doings and loves to point out those of the losing side.
Really? All high and mighty and in hindsight things seem less grey I admit. He worked in a KZ. He was a small cog but nevertheless a cog in the system. He may be just a pawn but working in a goddamn KZ - willingly or not - makes you guilty someway nevertheless. Didn´t you read my post? I said the judicial system will most probably not be the last instance to determine his innocence or guilt. And your analogy to jew = evil - classy and really fitting.
And yes I am the only one in the world who wishes him ill. What can I do - I am a monster. We should ask a judge about that, shouldn´t we?
|
On March 17 2012 22:30 Delial wrote: He should suffer regardless of age. Justice, must be served.
thats not justice, thats revenge
|
On March 17 2012 21:33 Muki wrote: This is sick, you're all celebrating the death of an old man who was put on a show trial for what he has allegedly done nearly 70 years ago, barely being an adult, in one of the messiest period ever in human history.
Meanwhile the butchers of Vietnam, the Gulags, the Middle East and many other war criminals roam free. Maybe justice will come for them, too, 70 years from now? Or maybe these "nazis" are actually accused because the witch hunting must go on, the nazi hunters have to make a living too. Yes, there were a lot of sickos. Many of them were executed in Nürnberg, relying on laws that weren't even in effect during their crimes. But maybe this guy did not kill 29 000 innocents. Perhaps put away the pitchforks and think for a moment before you open the champagne.
Victor's justice, something that always makes things matter. Whats the point after 65 years to hunt nazis anymore?
|
On March 17 2012 22:31 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 22:18 r.Evo wrote:On March 17 2012 21:56 Doublemint wrote: I am quite aware of how intransparent this period of time still is, especially finding evidence after 70(!) years. I read about Demjanjuk in newspapers when it actually was "news" quite some time ago, and were not aware of him being found not guilty. However - being acquitted by jurisprudence does not necessarily mean he is innocent - I could be as wrong as you. That does not take away the fact that many nazis did escape and were not prosecuted properly, so in a sense it IS understandable that people do find some kind of satisfaction if someone involved in the most heinous crimes in the history of the world met his maker.
I personally want nothing. It´s over this way or another. So you're saying that you have no clue whether he is guilty or not but then you add that it's understandable that people (hint: you) find satisfaction in him dieing? So, despite being unsure, the pure assumption that he's guilty gives you the right to say "I hope he gets tortured in hell for all eternity"? That chain of thought is no inch better than "This person is jewish, I think he deserves to die". Yes, lots of nazis escaped punishment and I think they should have been getting the punishment they deserved. However, that is no reason to with hunt on someone who COULD very well be innocent. Not to mention the fact that the definitions of "war crime" and "war hero" are very, very close to each other. It's just that the winning side, in general, hates to admit their wrong doings and loves to point out those of the losing side. Really? All high and mighty and in hindsight things seem less grey I admit. He worked in a KZ. He was a small cog but nevertheless a cog in the system. He may be just a pawn but working in a goddamn KZ - willingly or not - makes you guilty someway nevertheless. Didn´t you read my post? I said the judicial system will most probably not be the last instance to determine his innocence or guilt. And your analogy to jew = evil - classy and really fitting. And yes I am the only one in the world who wishes him ill. What can I do - I am a monster. We should ask a judge about that, shouldn´t we?
See, that's my problem with your reasoning.
If you want to see every person dead who had SOME kind of influence over other peoples suffering you might as well nuke the whole goddamn planet.
After all anyone from the pope to a mass murderer is a human being and has some kind of reasoning for his actions.
Imagine someone clearly tells you to kill another person or you're going to die yourself. I doubt any person in that kind of situation can be called a murderer who deserves punishment. While I'm not saying that this is what went on in this specific case (simply because no one knows the real facts) a LOT of the "grunts" or "cogs in the system" as you put it were in a similar position.
I'm all for punishing the people who can be held accountable for their actions. But punishing someone for not being a hero (when, again, you STILL don't know if he actively was responsible for peoples deaths) goes too far.
|
After reading all that. I'd say it's reasonable to do two actions in this case. If he is sentenced. Then every soldier in the US who has attended Iraq, or any other offense campaigns, should be put on trail for countless murders and be put to death also.
Or on the other hand since this was a time of war it should be forgiven.
Unfortunately when you are in the military and if you think about it a part of the Nazi regime he didn't have much say in what he was going to do. Back then just saying "no" could possibly get yourself killed. My own father went to jail at 9 years old in the USSR for drawing on a Stalin poster. So I would say this is from second hand experience, and the stories told to me as I was growing up from my parents. As my mother is a well educated individuals who I will probably never catch up to, (3 college degrees, including a masters.) I would not just take this with a grain of salt.
The proper thing in my opinion is to let the man go, or ask him what he wants to do about it himself. He is the criminal in this circumstance but also a victim. Just like every soldier. over 500,000 Civilians died in Iraq, but nobody is bringing a torch against the US army and demanding justice, right? So why are you upset over only 29k people then? Is it just a number? If it mattered then, why doesn't it matter now? Consider these questions first. If you simply throw the word justice around without thinking about how the world has changed and has not changed, and how the mass is manipulated you won't even be able to deal justice, you'll just be able to deal just ice.
|
On May 12 2009 10:30 iNcontroL wrote: Yes yes yessssssss WE GET IT people follow orders.. that doesn't mean you fucking spare them when those orders are illegal or fucking grotesque. That means you punish the people who issued the orders most severely, than punish the people who executed the orders to a lesser degree. I'm sorry but it has never/will never be ok to justify atrocious actions with "he ordered me to do it." You are still accountable.
Will you feel the same when it finally becomes Americans soildiers convicted for torture? Bush's turn, Obama's Turn? I truely hope principle extends past nationality. The time will come.
It's easy to demonize a Nazi, someday the Neoconservative policies are going to cost more than they paid off.. I don't need a reply, just like you too much to not say it. We who dared to say no.. great book
|
On March 17 2012 22:53 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 22:31 Doublemint wrote:On March 17 2012 22:18 r.Evo wrote:On March 17 2012 21:56 Doublemint wrote: I am quite aware of how intransparent this period of time still is, especially finding evidence after 70(!) years. I read about Demjanjuk in newspapers when it actually was "news" quite some time ago, and were not aware of him being found not guilty. However - being acquitted by jurisprudence does not necessarily mean he is innocent - I could be as wrong as you. That does not take away the fact that many nazis did escape and were not prosecuted properly, so in a sense it IS understandable that people do find some kind of satisfaction if someone involved in the most heinous crimes in the history of the world met his maker.
I personally want nothing. It´s over this way or another. So you're saying that you have no clue whether he is guilty or not but then you add that it's understandable that people (hint: you) find satisfaction in him dieing? So, despite being unsure, the pure assumption that he's guilty gives you the right to say "I hope he gets tortured in hell for all eternity"? That chain of thought is no inch better than "This person is jewish, I think he deserves to die". Yes, lots of nazis escaped punishment and I think they should have been getting the punishment they deserved. However, that is no reason to with hunt on someone who COULD very well be innocent. Not to mention the fact that the definitions of "war crime" and "war hero" are very, very close to each other. It's just that the winning side, in general, hates to admit their wrong doings and loves to point out those of the losing side. Really? All high and mighty and in hindsight things seem less grey I admit. He worked in a KZ. He was a small cog but nevertheless a cog in the system. He may be just a pawn but working in a goddamn KZ - willingly or not - makes you guilty someway nevertheless. Didn´t you read my post? I said the judicial system will most probably not be the last instance to determine his innocence or guilt. And your analogy to jew = evil - classy and really fitting. And yes I am the only one in the world who wishes him ill. What can I do - I am a monster. We should ask a judge about that, shouldn´t we? See, that's my problem with your reasoning. If you want to see every person dead who had SOME kind of influence over other peoples suffering you might as well nuke the whole goddamn planet.
After all anyone from the pope to a mass murderer is a human being and has some kind of reasoning for his actions. Imagine someone clearly tells you to kill another person or you're going to die yourself. I doubt any person in that kind of situation can be called a murderer who deserves punishment. While I'm not saying that this is what went on in this specific case (simply because no one knows the real facts) a LOT of the "grunts" or "cogs in the system" as you put it were in a similar position. I'm all for punishing the people who can be held accountable for their actions. But punishing someone for not being a hero (when, again, you STILL don't know if he actively was responsible for peoples deaths) goes too far.
We are still talking about KZs right? I will simply risk being wrong, for wishing him ill. How is that idea?
|
On March 17 2012 23:01 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 22:53 r.Evo wrote:On March 17 2012 22:31 Doublemint wrote:On March 17 2012 22:18 r.Evo wrote:On March 17 2012 21:56 Doublemint wrote: I am quite aware of how intransparent this period of time still is, especially finding evidence after 70(!) years. I read about Demjanjuk in newspapers when it actually was "news" quite some time ago, and were not aware of him being found not guilty. However - being acquitted by jurisprudence does not necessarily mean he is innocent - I could be as wrong as you. That does not take away the fact that many nazis did escape and were not prosecuted properly, so in a sense it IS understandable that people do find some kind of satisfaction if someone involved in the most heinous crimes in the history of the world met his maker.
I personally want nothing. It´s over this way or another. So you're saying that you have no clue whether he is guilty or not but then you add that it's understandable that people (hint: you) find satisfaction in him dieing? So, despite being unsure, the pure assumption that he's guilty gives you the right to say "I hope he gets tortured in hell for all eternity"? That chain of thought is no inch better than "This person is jewish, I think he deserves to die". Yes, lots of nazis escaped punishment and I think they should have been getting the punishment they deserved. However, that is no reason to with hunt on someone who COULD very well be innocent. Not to mention the fact that the definitions of "war crime" and "war hero" are very, very close to each other. It's just that the winning side, in general, hates to admit their wrong doings and loves to point out those of the losing side. Really? All high and mighty and in hindsight things seem less grey I admit. He worked in a KZ. He was a small cog but nevertheless a cog in the system. He may be just a pawn but working in a goddamn KZ - willingly or not - makes you guilty someway nevertheless. Didn´t you read my post? I said the judicial system will most probably not be the last instance to determine his innocence or guilt. And your analogy to jew = evil - classy and really fitting. And yes I am the only one in the world who wishes him ill. What can I do - I am a monster. We should ask a judge about that, shouldn´t we? See, that's my problem with your reasoning. If you want to see every person dead who had SOME kind of influence over other peoples suffering you might as well nuke the whole goddamn planet.
After all anyone from the pope to a mass murderer is a human being and has some kind of reasoning for his actions. Imagine someone clearly tells you to kill another person or you're going to die yourself. I doubt any person in that kind of situation can be called a murderer who deserves punishment. While I'm not saying that this is what went on in this specific case (simply because no one knows the real facts) a LOT of the "grunts" or "cogs in the system" as you put it were in a similar position. I'm all for punishing the people who can be held accountable for their actions. But punishing someone for not being a hero (when, again, you STILL don't know if he actively was responsible for peoples deaths) goes too far. We are still talking about KZs right? I will simply risk being wrong, for wishing him ill. How is that idea?
Interesting understanding of justice right there. Oh well, kinda hard to argue if your understanding of basic morale is different from what our laws propagate. At least there is no risk involved in wishing that you will never be able to change how those work. <3
|
On March 17 2012 23:06 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 23:01 Doublemint wrote:On March 17 2012 22:53 r.Evo wrote:On March 17 2012 22:31 Doublemint wrote:On March 17 2012 22:18 r.Evo wrote:On March 17 2012 21:56 Doublemint wrote: I am quite aware of how intransparent this period of time still is, especially finding evidence after 70(!) years. I read about Demjanjuk in newspapers when it actually was "news" quite some time ago, and were not aware of him being found not guilty. However - being acquitted by jurisprudence does not necessarily mean he is innocent - I could be as wrong as you. That does not take away the fact that many nazis did escape and were not prosecuted properly, so in a sense it IS understandable that people do find some kind of satisfaction if someone involved in the most heinous crimes in the history of the world met his maker.
I personally want nothing. It´s over this way or another. So you're saying that you have no clue whether he is guilty or not but then you add that it's understandable that people (hint: you) find satisfaction in him dieing? So, despite being unsure, the pure assumption that he's guilty gives you the right to say "I hope he gets tortured in hell for all eternity"? That chain of thought is no inch better than "This person is jewish, I think he deserves to die". Yes, lots of nazis escaped punishment and I think they should have been getting the punishment they deserved. However, that is no reason to with hunt on someone who COULD very well be innocent. Not to mention the fact that the definitions of "war crime" and "war hero" are very, very close to each other. It's just that the winning side, in general, hates to admit their wrong doings and loves to point out those of the losing side. Really? All high and mighty and in hindsight things seem less grey I admit. He worked in a KZ. He was a small cog but nevertheless a cog in the system. He may be just a pawn but working in a goddamn KZ - willingly or not - makes you guilty someway nevertheless. Didn´t you read my post? I said the judicial system will most probably not be the last instance to determine his innocence or guilt. And your analogy to jew = evil - classy and really fitting. And yes I am the only one in the world who wishes him ill. What can I do - I am a monster. We should ask a judge about that, shouldn´t we? See, that's my problem with your reasoning. If you want to see every person dead who had SOME kind of influence over other peoples suffering you might as well nuke the whole goddamn planet.
After all anyone from the pope to a mass murderer is a human being and has some kind of reasoning for his actions. Imagine someone clearly tells you to kill another person or you're going to die yourself. I doubt any person in that kind of situation can be called a murderer who deserves punishment. While I'm not saying that this is what went on in this specific case (simply because no one knows the real facts) a LOT of the "grunts" or "cogs in the system" as you put it were in a similar position. I'm all for punishing the people who can be held accountable for their actions. But punishing someone for not being a hero (when, again, you STILL don't know if he actively was responsible for peoples deaths) goes too far. We are still talking about KZs right? I will simply risk being wrong, for wishing him ill. How is that idea? Interesting understanding of justice right there. Oh well, kinda hard to argue if your understanding of basic morale is different from what our laws propagate. At least there is no risk involved in wishing that you will never be able to change how those work. <3
Yeah, you are probably right. Thank god no one thinks twice about such crucial things. You studied law? I did for 3 semesters, and changed because it is not my thing. Putting morale and law in the same sentence is rather dangerous. The race laws of nuremberg were also law in Germany I heard - no?
|
if a serial killer kills 30 hookers in 10 years when he was 30-40 and isnt caught till he is in his 70's doesnt mean he didnt kill the hookers, or wasnt an accessory to murder. Dexter says kill the man
i love how people are comparing the war in the middle east to the holocaust, thats so fucking innapropriate its retarded. when a total of 30million + people die in the war in the middle east then compare it, 6million of which were jews who were targetted specificly. im not saying he is the one that killed them all, im saying he should be held accountable for what he has done.
|
On March 17 2012 23:15 ozzy1346 wrote: if a serial killer kills 30 hookers in 10 years when he was 30-40 and isnt caught till he is in his 70's doesnt mean he didnt kill the hookers, or wasnt an accessory to murder. Dexter says kill the man
i love how people are comparing the war in the middle east to the holocaust, thats so fucking innapropriate its retarded. when a total of 30million + people die in the war in the middle east then compare it, 6million of which were jews who were targetted specificly. im not saying he is the one that killed them all, im saying he should be held accountable for what he has done.
30 million isn't too far off buddy, since it's already at 500,000 Civilians dead in Iraq alone.
|
On March 17 2012 23:15 ozzy1346 wrote: if a serial killer kills 30 hookers in 10 years when he was 30-40 and isnt caught till he is in his 70's doesnt mean he didnt kill the hookers, or wasnt an accessory to murder. Dexter says kill the man
i love how people are comparing the war in the middle east to the holocaust, thats so fucking innapropriate its retarded. when a total of 30million + people die in the war in the middle east then compare it, 6million of which were jews who were targetted specificly. im not saying he is the one that killed them all, im saying he should be held accountable for what he has done.
LOL I would not necessarily take Dexter as the best example - but the point simply is that after this amount of time due process will not work and fails here.
|
On May 15 2011 06:23 MoltkeWarding wrote:As a perhaps unnecessary addendum, Pat Buchanan has come out with a spirited defense of Mr. Demjanjuk: Show nested quote +“John Demjanjuk Guilty of Nazi Death Camp Murders,” ran the headline on the BBC. The lede began:
“A German court has found John Demjanjuk guilty of helping to murder more than 28,000 Jews at a Nazi death camp in Poland.”
Not until paragraph 17 does one find this jolting fact: “No evidence was produced that he committed a specific crime.”
That is correct. No evidence was produced, no witness came forward to testify he ever saw Demjanjuk injure anyone. And the critical evidence that put Demjanjuk at Sobibor came—from the KGB.
First was a KGB summary of an alleged interview with one Ignat Danilchenko, who claimed he was a guard at Sobibor and knew Demjanjuk. Second was the Soviet-supplied ID card from the Trawniki camp that trained guards.
There are major problems with both pieces of “evidence.”
First, Danilchenko has been dead for a quarter of a century, no one in the West ever interviewed him, and Moscow stonewalled defense requests for access to the full Danilchenko file. His very existence raises a question.
How could a Red Army soldier who turned collaborator and Nazi camp guard survive Operation Keelhaul, which sent all Soviet POWs back to Joseph Stalin, where they were either murdered or sent to the Gulag?
As for the ID card from Trawniki, just last month there was unearthed at the National Archives in College Park, Md., a 1985 report from the Cleveland office of the FBI, which, after studying the card, concluded it was “quite likely” a KGB forgery.
“Justice is ill-served in the prosecution of an American citizen on evidence which is not only normally inadmissible in a court of law, but based on evidence and allegations quite likely fabricated by the KGB.”
This FBI report, never made public, was done just as Demjanjuk was being deported to Israel to stand trial as “Ivan the Terrible,” the murderer of Treblinka. In a sensational trial covered by the world’s press, Demjanjuk was convicted and sentenced to hang.
But after five years on death row, new evidence turned up when the Soviet Union collapsed and Russia opened up. That evidence wholly validated the claims of Demjanjuk’s defenders.
Not only had Demjanjuk never even been at Treblinka, the Soviet files contained a photograph of the real “Ivan”—a larger and older man.
To its eternal credit, the Israeli Supreme Court reversed the conviction, rejected a request to retry Demjanjuk as a camp guard elsewhere in Poland, freed him and sent him home to America.
Exposed as a laughing stock, and denounced for fraud by Ohio district and appellate courts, the Office of Special Investigations began crafting a new case, John Demjanjuk of Sobibor, to deport and try again the old man whose defense attorneys had made fools of them.
Thus the Sobibor story and Demjanjuk’s supposed complicity in the murder of 28,000 Jews—though, as the BBC notes, no one testified at the trial that they ever saw John Demjanjuk injure anyone.
Consider the life this tormented American has lived.
Born in Ukraine in 1920, as a boy he endured the Holodomor—the famine imposed on his people in 1932 and 1933 by Stalin and his hated henchman Lazar Kaganovich, which resulted in the starvation and death of somewhere between 5 million and 9 million Ukrainians.
It has been called by historians the “forgotten Holocaust.”
Conscripted into the Red Army, Demjanjuk was captured in the German blitzkrieg. Unlike American and British POWs, whom Germans regarded as racial equals, Ukrainians were untermensch who could be used for medical experiments.
Not only did Demjanjuk survive, he managed to evade the Allied order, under Keelhaul, for all Red Army POWs to be repatriated to Stalin, which was the Soviet dictator’s demand before he would return the U.S. and British POWs his troops liberated in the march to Berlin.
In the war’s aftermath, Demjanjuk married his wife Vera, who had been conscripted in the Ukraine and brought forcibly west to work in the German economy.
Thence he moved to Cleveland, became an autoworker, raised a family and practiced his Christian faith. But he made a mistake.
He sent his wife to Ukraine to tell his aged mother that he had survived the war and was living in the great United States of America.
Word got around the village. The KGB came calling. Swiftly, the payments his mother had been receiving for her war hero son were halted, and suddenly, there turned up an ID card that said John Demjanjuk had been trained at Trawniki to be a Nazi camp guard.
The KGB began feeding OSI from its “files,” as OSI began a manic persecution of Demjanjuk that has lasted 30 years.
Stalin died in bed in 1953. Kaganovich died with his family around him in Moscow in 1991. And John Demjanjuk, 91, after spending five years on death row for a crime he did not commit in a place he never was, is stateless and homeless in a Germany where veterans of the SS walk free.
That is justice—in our world. I wonder if anyone has any observations on his argument.
If this is true it's just tragic.
|
Imean. Did the guy start off as a kid who always wanted to grow up to be a guard at a concentration camp? It seems if he was a guard like he was so far down the change of command that he had little to no choice in the matter. You want to kill him now because he didn't martyr himself for the cause then? That seems a little jaded. Wouldn't anyone who didn't immediately throw themselves headfirst, teeth bared, bayonet in hand into WWII then be complicit in the Nazi agenda? What about those in the United States who were low level (maybe factory) workers for corporations that secretly did business with the Nazis?
I dunno. For some reason I can't feel hatred for this guy. All I feel is pity.
|
not sure what he did wrong.. kind of a damned if you do damned if you dont kind of thing.. imagine if he refused to work at the death camp? you cant refuse orders working in the military.
|
On a purely economical view, the benefit of having him condemned, taken to germany and jailed is clearly excessive. because we have to take into account the chances that he will ever be a threat again (which is close to zero since he is so old and never did anything afterwards), and make sure that letting him go will not create the impression that you can commit crimes and get away with them. Here we have an exceptional situation and It will certainly not create a surge of Neo-Nazis in the States simply because a grandpa got away with what he did 60 years ago.
|
On March 18 2012 01:46 VPCursed wrote: not sure what he did wrong.. kind of a damned if you do damned if you dont kind of thing.. imagine if he refused to work at the death camp? you cant refuse orders working in the military.
My thoughts exactly. It's so easy to sit here and point/say "I would have totally saved everybody", when in reality if you didn't do what you were told even just once you could very well have been executed and have your entire family get fucked over.
|
Oh ya accuse a aguard at a concentration camp of how ever many counts of murder, but bring over high ranking germans and nazi scientists to work for US interests ...( 'PROJECT PAPERCLIP' ) And to Incontrols comment about punishing the people who executed the orders , w hat about these nazi scientists who ARE some what responsible for millions of deaths and working ffor and with Hitler. I wish things worked the way you talk about but in real life thats not what has happened in every case , clearly.
|
|
|
|