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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 23 2008 12:10 Cloud wrote: Crimes punishable by death already place the criminals life in the line, so yes, i think he cares a little less about it. I have no idea what you are saying. You suggesting people who commit capital crimes don't care about their life? | ||
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VO_ov
United States46 Posts
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HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
On December 23 2008 12:13 Cloud wrote: Also, im done here, im not gonna argue with people who say death penalty is justifiable because its cheaper, jesus, how about we apply the same people to other hopeless causes like healthcare for the elderly. That is not at all a parallel, that's just drivel. Why do you say the word 'hopeless' and why do you try to compare elderly people with serial killers :S. | ||
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lesser_good
Canada698 Posts
no a spree is in one go. Like Columbine and Dawson | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
On December 23 2008 12:27 lesser_good wrote: no a spree is in one go. Like Columbine and Dawson Those were in 1 location, a spree is by definition at multiple locations. | ||
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HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
On December 23 2008 12:10 Frits wrote: Human rights are not something you are supposed to deserve. And with rights come no responsibilities, the whole point of having rights is that it applies to everyone lol. By your logic we should be allowed to torture terrorists into giving us information, because once they killed people they lost their rights to live. But by the same logic they should be allowed to torture our soldiers because they have also killed people who were innocent in their eyes. Don't you see how important it becomes here for things like the geneva convention to exist? Saying certain people don't deserve rights leads to atrocities exactly like the ones you are trying to prevent. No it doesn't. THESE creatures do not deserve human rights. Most other crimedoers do. Your attempt to extract a straw man argument is just pathetic. Why don't you ask me what I think should and shouldn't be done regarding terrorists and all of the other examples you made? I wouldn't condone any of those things. I don't condone atrocities. That's just blathering idiocy. You argue so abstractly. I am not saying that these boys should be beaten with a hammer and have their eyes gouged with a screwdriver, just saying that their lives are worth nothing to society, and they have no right to life; they have no right to ANYTHING. I don't know what you Americans are taught but the phrase 'with all rights come responsibilities' has been inculcated in me since youth so you'll have to accept we have a different way of viewing the world. I believe that human rights are indistinguishable from human privileges, whoever brought up the etymological argument btw. I really have to bemoan the sad situation that humanity can sometimes slide into when it completely incapacitates itself by morality paralysis. What possible use is there of saying these creatures deserve human rights? Can anyone explain why THEY specifically deserve them; without using the lame ass 'everyone gets human rights it's in the SPECIAL CODE of geneva'. Half of you are probably just desperate to play devil's advocate; and Frits just likes to be involved. As do I, of course. PS i wasn't referring to Frits when I said you Americans. | ||
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HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
Poll: What should happen to the maniacs? (Vote): Standard life imprisonment (Vote): Labour camp style, zero benefits (no healthcare) life imprisonment (Vote): Execution (Vote): Torture (Vote): Anything less???!!!??!?! And let's assume the execution option is the same cost as the standard life imprisonment | ||
intrigue
Washington, D.C9935 Posts
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Dgtl
Canada889 Posts
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Frits
11782 Posts
you are argueing FOR TAKING AWAY ALL RIGHTS and then say that you're not advocating atrocities DO YOU EVEN UNDERSTAND THE POINT OF HAVING RIGHTS fdafsadsfadsf you say they have no right to anything, wouldnt that include the right of not being tortured? fuuuuuuck you are so stupid. You keep proposing your idiotic idea's but when you can apply it to something else you come up with some bullshit and call it a strawman, which it clearly isn't. You are one shortsighted idiot, wow. go away and remove that retarded poll | ||
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chobopeon
United States7342 Posts
This thread has gotten pretty stupid and circular but it took several pages to do so. I'll take what I can get! | ||
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Jusciax
Lithuania588 Posts
Report of the California Commission on the Fair Administration of Justice “The additional cost of confining an inmate to death row, as compared to the maximum security prisons where those sentenced to life without possibility of parole ordinarily serve their sentences, is $90,000 per year per inmate. With California’s current death row population of 670, that accounts for $63.3 million annually.” Using conservative rough projections, the Commission estimates the annual costs of the present (death penalty) system to be $137 million per year. The cost of the present system with reforms recommended by the Commission to ensure a fair process would be $232.7 million per year. The cost of a system in which the number of death-eligible crimes was significantly narrowed would be $130 million per year. The cost of a system which imposes a maximum penalty of lifetime incarceration instead of the death penalty would be $11.5 million per year. Source: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty | ||
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HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
On December 23 2008 12:40 Frits wrote: you are argueing FOR TAKING AWAY ALL RIGHTS and then say that you're not advocating atrocities Christ, is English even your first language?! Yes I am saying they have no rights, and YES I personally would not give ONE TINY LITTLE FUCKING SHIT if they were tortured to death. But I am not advocating that. I am advocating that they are destroyed or turned into solitarily confined labour machines until they die. Remember, I am only talking about sane, sick, prolific serial killers here, not everyone else you want to suddenly lump into the category of 'HamerD's anti-human rights manifesto' | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
But I am not advocating that. I am advocating that they are destroyed or turned into solitarily confined labour machines until they die. You are unreal. I didnt even say that you are anti-human rights, Im just saying that you have no idea what the implications of your retarded idea would be. edit: And no, english is not my first language, even though I haven't said anything here that discredits my english speaking skills. What you're thinking of is logical reasoning, and I think mine is a lot better than yours. (Don't even bother replying, you believe in astrology, this is a free win for me.) | ||
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HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
On December 23 2008 12:41 Jusciax wrote: I don't agree about taking money into account when making judicial decisions, but here's some facts about death penalty costs. Thanks for the facts. To re-iterate for the billionth time, the issue is not that simple. Look at where the costs are- appeals, evidence collection, jury special time, time on death row...etcetc. it's 4 in the morning and even though SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET, I can't be bothered to trudge up the facts. Though this is a matter close to heart for me. Also, remember that the main reason the cost is so high is that so many people are executed, for comparatively minor offences compared to the creatures in this particular situation. There are also people executed for whom the fine line between enough evidence and doubtful amount of evidence is blurry. This all adds to cost. You'll find facts for and against you all around the internet on this topic, it is NOT clean cut. ps that someone is not you, maybe not even Frits, it's just an expression | ||
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HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
Frits you're the greatest straw man creator since the scare crow from the wizard of oz discovered viagra. You have some sort of compulsion for quoting me out of context. I am not advocating committing atrocities against these killers. I am advocating destroying them or full no-benefits life labour. Atrocities imo would be genocide, torture, rape, etc. I don't advocate those. You didn't pick up on a contradiction in my post you just misquoted me. It's like an editor reviewing an album saying 'Quite obviously not the greatest album of all time' and the band quoting 'Quite obviously...the greatest album of all time' on the front of the CD. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
How is that a strawman, it's just using logical reasoning to point out that your idea has huge shortcomings. Just because parts of your idea are flawed and can be easily refuted doesn't mean pointing it out is using a strawman. There's a huge difference, I am not taking anything out of context or comparing your idea with something else, I am simply pointing out how shortsighted your reasoning is. | ||
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HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
On December 23 2008 13:07 Frits wrote: You don't advocate it but by taking away their rights you allow it. Yep. True. I don't want it to happen, but I don't give a shit if it does. Wait, are you telling me that if you saw an angry mob grabbing these cunts and stamping on their heads you would feel bad? God I know I wouldn't. | ||
Smurg
Canada3819 Posts
Murder happens daily, people are stripped of their right to live by the killers - and the killers are in turn exacted justice depending on the nature of the crime - a life in prison is not an existence, it is a waste of your life, with metal bars, solid concrete and hundreds of disjointed inmates to remind you every day what you've done, your life is effectively over. The weight of the law will fall down on these three hard. Execution will remove them from the world, but in 'real' justice terms it won't destroy them as they destroyed their victims, it will be a moment of pain and then nothing. A long spell in solitary confinement within the walls of an Eastern european prison with little to no privileges will suffice for them. I can see what Frits is getting at, if we strip away human rights in one case, then where do we stop? Why do we have the laws and regulations in place if we are to defy them? I only hope the judicial system in the Ukraine will deliver swift and exacting justice - whatever that is. I don't think their legal system will ever allow them the chance for parole - if it does, then there is a problem somewhere in the world. We should be happy in knowing that they aren't going to survive, and the world of the living (outside bars) is not one they will ever see again. This will be enough to destroy them - and whatever tasks they have to do as part of normal prison life will be hard enough, given the nature of their crimes. It won't ever repair the hurt that the 21 families are feeling, but it will at least give them a measure of 'peace of mind'. To know that their loved ones no longer feel the pain, and that their killers are essentially rotting behind bars with less rights than 90% of the population. We have to remember, if we stripped away all of their rights, are we simply unleashing our own heart of darkness (the desire for eye-for-an-eye, revenge in the same way - in the case torture) by implementing revenge justice? It would be an easy response for hundreds of people to want to kill them the same way that they killed their victims (As I know I did last night). This momentary lapse in judgement (heat of the moment) could potentially lead to a much worse situation, if we change our systems for these acts, where do we stop? | ||
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Dgtl
Canada889 Posts
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