On the night of Saturday, December 6th, two Special Guards of the Greek police clashed with a small group of young men. The exact details of what took place are still unclear, but it is known that one of the Guards fired three shots, and one of those bullets caused the death of 15-year-old Alexander Grigoropoulos - whether the injury was made by an accidental ricochet or deliberate shot remains to be determined. The two Guards are now in jail awaiting trial, the shooter charged with homicide. This incident sparked an immediate and widespread response in the form of angry demonstrations and riots in many Greek cities that have continued at varying levels to this day - though dimming in intensity recently. Alexander's death appears to have been a catalyst, unleashing widespread Greek anger towards many issues - police mistreatment of protesters, unwelcome education reforms, economic stagnation, government corruption and more.
If you browse any gallery on the webs today, make it this one. A riot police officer on fire, a guy shooting the ground with his hands, green lasers pew pew. It's hard to top this. I give this riot a 10/10.
On December 17 2008 14:23 Quesadilla wrote: It's actually not that cool. People dying and getting set on fire for the cause of anarchy is pretty stupid.
Folca, are you retarded? I feel as though I should elaborate.
You are retarded. Democracy was founded in Greece, it was a less spread form however. It was in Athens where they had sort of a senate who decided things that happened, upper class people decided things instead of a king (I am not going to go into an entire history lesson, this is my brief summary)
Even today, they have a Democratic country, with an official elected by there parliament for a 5 year term. If you want to think that's not democratic because parliament elects him, then neither is America. Since popular vote doesn't actually elect people, its the electoral one.
- finally a thread about this subject, really hope some members that live in Greece leave their input : ) its a really odd set of events going on in Greece now - anarchy flags everywhere o_Oa so old school, it almost looks like all of Greece blew into fight klub mode - Jyvblamo is right, photos are almost out of Hollywood stuff
Well that's a thing or two we Venezuelans can learn from Greeks. They don't take shit, and if you dare to mess with them, they're going to use the gene's and heritage they were born with.
Natural born fighters. Props to them for defending their shit, and It's a sad thing that people has to come to "this" to make things happen.
If the riots are because the economy I'm surprised riots haven't started here in the states. There is a huge class difference, the poor and the rich, here in the states and the majority are royally pissed off due to the bailout which banks used to buy other banks. Now the motor companies are using threats to get the money. Ticking time bomb maybe.
So, shit like that happens atlest once a year in America we just force them off the force and shame them for life no need to throw Molotov Cocktails burning everything.
On December 17 2008 14:46 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: If the riots are because the economy
I am sure it helps but it's not that simple. The youth and general population in Greece have been building beef against the police methods for a while - and I am sure there is others capitalizing on the sentiment. I don't want to have to read a hour to figure it out myself - we need tl.net Greek input/feedback asap!
Izzy, it was apparently a trigger for a bunch of other things that were happening. Similar to the assassination of Franz Ferdinand before WW1 started. That issue in itself was not a huge deal, but triggered rest of the things that happened. This seems like a less extreme degree of that, where the death of the 15 year old triggered problems that were already going on.
On December 17 2008 14:49 SkepTicAL wrote: cop shot a 15 year old and killed him. Police system in Greece is rly corrupt.
yup, remember the video of Greek police making thieves (kids) slap each other? I think shits brewing for a long while now.. internet is a powerful thing; there is a lot of suggestions that many of the riots now going on are been organized and distributed via social online organization - which is how they can mass so many so fast for mayhem
On December 17 2008 14:49 SkepTicAL wrote: cop shot a 15 year old and killed him.
from another perspective: some retard wondering on the streets at night burning cars and vandalising buildings got shot by police who were trying to stop him.
What they don't have protest or petitions over there it's all break no bend.Apparently they believe public opinion is only shown when you are violent seriously. America gets a bad rap but at lest we don't burn our own cities well we don't do it often alot of that shit went away with the 60's i mean the last riot i can remember was the la riots for police beatings that were shown and i think like 60 people died in those riots seriously wtf. The Police shouldn't be allowed to use excessive force but we are gonna go around killing people and burning shit. Riots are for those who at heart are violent and all that happens is shit gets trashed and stolen it's not that productive.
Yall know the police answers to the government if need be the government can go around firing shit loads of people. There are other ways to show out rage.
On December 17 2008 14:49 SkepTicAL wrote: cop shot a 15 year old and killed him.
from another perspective: some retard wondering on the streets at night burning cars and vandalising buildings got shot by police who were trying to stop him.
He fucking deserved it.
People murder other people and get the obligation of going to jail and live. No one deserves to kill another person despite the circumstances.
On December 17 2008 14:49 SkepTicAL wrote: cop shot a 15 year old and killed him.
from another perspective: some retard wondering on the streets at night burning cars and vandalising buildings got shot by police who were trying to stop him.
He fucking deserved it.
People murder other people and get the obligation of going to jail and live. No one deserves to kill another person despite the circumstances.
Yeah but if the murder is deemed dangerous and is running they have the authority to shoot to detain. It's all a matter of intent =p it's one thing to murder someone it's another to manslaughter at lest in America it is.
I mean shit you don't get riots when a serial killer goes around killing people. Its different when a authority figure commits the crime but seriously it's not like they get getting off the hook atlest not yet if they would.
On December 17 2008 14:54 IzzyCraft wrote: Riots are for those who at heart are violent and all that happens is shit gets trashed and stolen it's not that productive.
I disagree, riots, and civil disobedience in general, are a citizen's last line of defense against an oppressive government. And there have been many riots that were productive, at least in that they lead to permanent and positive change.
On December 17 2008 14:54 IzzyCraft wrote: America gets a bad rap but at lest we don't burn our own cities well we don't do it often alot of that shit went away with the 60's i mean the last riot i can remember was the la riots for police beatings that were shown and i think like 60 people died in those riots seriously wtf.
- as u can see, Americans are people too, bad rap or not, it has had its fair share of riots and some large enuf to keep up with the largest from a world wide perspective.
My entire family lives in greece, i am originally from greece, and im pretty sure i know that the greek system is corrupt. You think they don't fabricate this shit to make the police system look like what they did wasn't bad?
I don't think an entire youth would riot had this been one of the first events of police corruption, and if the cause was just. It's complete crap
On December 17 2008 14:49 SkepTicAL wrote: cop shot a 15 year old and killed him.
from another perspective: some retard wondering on the streets at night burning cars and vandalising buildings got shot by police who were trying to stop him.
He fucking deserved it.
People murder other people and get the obligation of going to jail and live. No one deserves to kill another person despite the circumstances.
Im not saying it was right for the police to shoot the kid, but seriously.. if the kid valued his life he probably would have been smarter to get out of the way of say.. a bunch of cops with guns? Your responsible for your own life, he put himself at danger.. he paid the price.
On December 17 2008 15:03 SkepTicAL wrote: I find it funny that you are some stubborn thick headed american. I might add that my uncle is a cop lol, the stories he has are very uhh...? funny?
I'm thickheaded on riots cuz i rather not have them. Omg where is the logic behind there lol where is the lack of logic behind that it's like saying i don't want violence cuz i don't benefit and there are other ways to get things done instead of taking the illegal rout. If you have total distrust of the government you are under why the fuck do you live there.
On December 17 2008 15:03 SkepTicAL wrote: I find it funny that you are some stubborn thick headed american. I might add that my uncle is a cop lol, the stories he has are very uhh...? funny?
I have friends that are going to be police officers and they know people that shouldn't be in the police force yet those people are in there till they fuck up bad enough like here, it's common shit for people to know who shouldn't be here yet no one says anything because it's frowned upon for "snitching" or w.e you would call it on people.
You know i just take insults directed at a nation as we are a smaller country and we feel belittled so we talk smack about you to make us feel more important in the world.
On December 17 2008 15:16 IzzyCraft wrote: You know i just take insults directed at a nation as we are a smaller country and we feel belittled so we talk smack about you to make us feel more important in the world.
On December 17 2008 15:25 Hyperbola wrote: Amazing as to what means some countries will go to stop riots. This pic is from some slavic country's huge riot. (forgot the name)
Wow at those teargas masks. Just be lucky that mass shootings is looked down upon. Cause an eye for an eye throw they throw Molotov Cocktails at the rioters that will get them to stfu lol thought it probably cause another riot.
But i mean the arrogance that rioting displays, face it if the police wanted to shut down a riot they could by using alot more force.
Yet mostly people that die are because of the rioters not the police during a riot. I mean common when you riot you are the bad guy.
On December 17 2008 15:25 Hyperbola wrote: Amazing as to what means some countries will go to stop riots. This pic is from some slavic country's huge riot. (forgot the name)
Wow at those teargas masks. Just be lucky that mass shootings is looked down upon. Cause an eye for an eye throw they throw Molotov Cocktails at the rioters that will get them to stfu lol thought it probably cause another riot.
But i mean the arrogance that rioting displays, face it if the police wanted to shut down a riot they could by using alot more force.
Yet mostly people that die are because of the rioters not the police during a riot. I mean common when you riot you are the bad guy.
What I meant to show with this is the similarity between these gaurds and the combine in half-life 2.
look, for all americans, you have no idea how it is to have a police system that is completely corrupt, that makes your life worse, that doesnt protect you, by the contrary.
I really wish we here in Brazil were tenacious enough to do that kind of rioting, if theyr law enforcements is like ours, I praise them for what they are doing, nothing against the police officers, but honestly, sometimes the system needs to crash and reboot to run clean.
On December 17 2008 15:35 D10 wrote: look, for all americans, you have no idea how it is to have a police system that is completely corrupt, that makes your life worse, that doesnt protect you, by the contrary.
I really wish we here in Brazil were tenacious enough to do that kind of rioting, if theyr law enforcements is like ours, I praise them for what they are doing, nothing against the police officers, but honestly, sometimes the system needs to crash and reboot to run clean.
Sure some police forces may be corrupt.. but atleast they dont destroy public property or burn peoples cars. Rioters are just much much worse in many ways than corrupt cops.
On December 17 2008 15:30 IzzyCraft wrote: Yet mostly people that die are because of the rioters not the police during a riot. I mean common when you riot you are the bad guy.
Please don't take offense to this, I am just trying to get your side, not trying to call anybody dumb or to hurt anybody in any way...Ok?
Anyways, how, other than rioting and other methods of civil disobedience, is an oppressed people supposed to make their government allow change? I don't know the specifics of the situation in Greece, but I am assuming it is more likely that there is a real problem than it is that all of Greece went crazy for no reason. So, if your government is corrupt, and won't listen to you, pretty much all you have left is the fact that there are a hell of a lot of you and not so many of them, which means rioting. I'm not saying every rioter in history has been in the right, and I am definitely not supporting throwing molotov cocktails at police officers, but sometimes people need to remind their government that it exists because they allow it to, not the other way around.
On December 17 2008 15:25 Hyperbola wrote: Amazing as to what means some countries will go to stop riots. This pic is from some slavic country's huge riot. (forgot the name)
Nice half life 2 reference. I thought they were more mickey mouse's. Dangerous AND friendly.
On December 17 2008 15:30 IzzyCraft wrote: Yet mostly people that die are because of the rioters not the police during a riot. I mean common when you riot you are the bad guy.
Please don't take offense to this, I am just trying to get your side, not trying to call anybody dumb or to hurt anybody in any way...Ok?
Anyways, how, other than rioting and other methods of civil disobedience, is an oppressed people supposed to make their government allow change? I don't know the specifics of the situation in Greece, but I am assuming it is more likely that there is a real problem than it is that all of Greece went crazy for no reason. So, if your government is corrupt, and won't listen to you, pretty much all you have left is the fact that there are a hell of a lot of you and not so many of them, which means rioting. I'm not saying every rioter in history has been in the right, and I am definitely not supporting throwing molotov cocktails at police officers, but sometimes people need to remind their government that it exists because they allow it to, not the other way around.
Frankly i see Riots as impatience you know protest work maybe you remember the shit with the firehouses and the black kids sitting at white only areas. Frankly when the government doesn't listen to you why the fuck would you call where you live a democracy/republic obviously if you feel you need to riot then why not just redo the entire government and have a civil war.
On December 17 2008 15:14 dronebabo wrote: and the american insult has been initiated on page two
- which is usually preceded by an American poster making a holier than thou post about America in the first page ; ) :
On December 17 2008 14:49 IzzyCraft wrote: So, shit like that happens atlest once a year in America we just force them off the force and shame them for life no need to throw Molotov Cocktails burning everything.
(incorrect statement too, cause Molotov cocktail burning everything has happened in the US too, precisely for the same reasons, police injustice.)
On December 17 2008 15:35 D10 wrote: look, for all americans, you have no idea how it is to have a police system that is completely corrupt, that makes your life worse, that doesnt protect you, by the contrary.
I really wish we here in Brazil were tenacious enough to do that kind of rioting, if theyr law enforcements is like ours, I praise them for what they are doing, nothing against the police officers, but honestly, sometimes the system needs to crash and reboot to run clean.
Sure some police forces may be corrupt.. but atleast they dont destroy public property or burn peoples cars. Rioters are just much much worse in many ways than corrupt cops.
how about kidnapping, murderer, being partners with the drug trafic and there were endless cases where officers did tons of work just so they could close theyr cases and not work
moving bodies, destroying evidence, all so they dont have to work and can keep theyr framing and drug schemes.
If you really think they dont destroy public property, you havent thought about all the trust that is broken, and if you can trust a police what can you trust ? normally a corrupt police is tied to corrupt politicias, so if you dont step up they will just fist fuck you to the last penny.
I think the cumulative decay of the Greek state lead to the people protesting.
Bear in mind that arguing if the protests were done in a rightful manner or not, is a different argument and should be treated like this. In fact, I believe it is a really complex matter that needs a thorough analysis which unfortunately i cannot do now..
Unfortunately, things in Greece seem to be back to normal now..
Why are you arguing about the supposed inferiority or superiority of American vs. non-American people? The situation is a result of social conditions and upbringing. Americans don't have some kind of superior "non-riot" gene obtained from simply being American that makes them more civil, fair, and reasonable.
There have been exceptionally good and bad people from all countries, and every government has committed both benevolent and heinous acts. This is because countries and governments comprise many different people, some of whom have noble intentions, some ignoble, and most in between.
If you think the shooting and death of the 15 year old child was a 'bad' reason for riot, in australia (2 ish years ago) a couple of lebanese guys beat up an australian life surfer. soon after a huge mob of 'aussies' went around beating the shit out of any body that looked similar to those of middle easter ethnicity.
I think the cumulative decay of the Greek state lead to the people protesting.
Bear in mind that arguing if the protests were done in a rightful manner or not, is a different argument and should be treated like this. In fact, I believe it is a really complex matter that needs a thorough analysis which unfortunately i cannot do now..
Unfortunately, things in Greece seem to be back to normal now..
thanks, ur last sentence too, told me more about current Greek sentiment than the whole blog article (that blog too has a few great replies - thanks again)
On December 17 2008 14:41 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Folca, are you retarded? I feel as though I should elaborate.
You are retarded. Democracy was founded in Greece, it was a less spread form however. It was in Athens where they had sort of a senate who decided things that happened, upper class people decided things instead of a king (I am not going to go into an entire history lesson, this is my brief summary)
Even today, they have a Democratic country, with an official elected by there parliament for a 5 year term. If you want to think that's not democratic because parliament elects him, then neither is America. Since popular vote doesn't actually elect people, its the electoral one.
I'm not gonna read through this topic to see if someone else called you on this BS already. Suffice to say democracy in ancient Greece is for a very select few, where it's rigidly caste-based society that's far from the variety we have today. We're talking starcraft circa 2000 vs 2008 here, can't even be compared, totally different ballgame.
Besides, calling the trigger of this riot "stupid" is like calling tl a simple "fanpage." Obviously people there have been in the rioting mood for some years now, the shooting just set it off.
Sadly, it seems that only pictures of burning cars make good news when it comes to protests.. What we don't see is the thousands of people of all ages that protested peacefully during the last week.
It wasn't all chaos and mayhem these days and except for the anarchists -the only thing we saw in the news- its was pretty cool that people got out on the streets.
Obviously a cop killing some kid was just what set things in motion, the real reason for this in my opinion was a general feeling of distress and disappointment caused by an incompetent government.
On December 17 2008 14:25 Folca wrote: Democracy is obviously needed + Show Spoiler +
Im not kidding
On December 17 2008 14:27 Raithed wrote: whats greece? i thought they were at a democracy stage, capitalism? idk.
It's exactly when you have democracy that it's people's right (and sometimes obligation) to protest.. If it wasn't for some form of protesting and rioting throughout history, people may never have gained fundamental rights.
When a government is not dedicated to the well being of its citizens (and i doubt there's many of them around) and has economic motives and lobbies to please instead people HAVE to protest for what they believe is right.
I'm pretty sure people started going out to the streets to get heard, not to burn everything around, but there's always a bunch of jackasses that get more weight than they have. 100 burn cars and 10000 claim on the streets, what do you talk about? the 100 firestarters. What happens next? The 9000 go home and the firestarters get the attention they wanted until the police stops them.
PS: Don't take my post literally in numbers, you know what I mean.
On December 17 2008 14:27 Raithed wrote: whats greece? i thought they were at a democracy stage, capitalism? idk.
It's exactly when you have democracy that it's people's right (and sometimes obligation) to protest.. If it wasn't for some form of protesting and rioting throughout history, people may never have gained fundamental rights.
When a government is not dedicated to the well being of its citizens (and i doubt there's many of them around) and has economic motives and lobbies to please instead people HAVE to protest for what they believe is right.
Just my opinion tho, hf
/Lurker mode back on
Keep in mind, the majority of people on this website believe that the populace at large should be forcefully impotent, entrusting all power to governmental institutions, based on a vague distrust of their fellow community members.
On December 17 2008 18:00 HeadBangaa wrote: Keep in mind, the majority of people on this website believe that the populace at large should be forcefully impotent, entrusting all power to governmental institutions, based on a vague distrust of their fellow community members.
Man don't you know how to use spoilers?? Sometimes there are some things you'd rather just suspect...
EDIT:
On December 17 2008 18:01 betaben wrote: you've got to admit, there's some good pictures
Whats up with the lasers and stuff? I dint know riot police was so high tech.. Protesters only use their fingers and go pew pew. Clearly imba...
On December 17 2008 17:53 Telemako wrote: I'm pretty sure people started going out to the streets to get heard, not to burn everything around, but there's always a bunch of jackasses that get more weight than they have. 100 burn cars and 10000 claim on the streets, what do you talk about? the 100 firestarters. What happens next? The 9000 go home and the firestarters get the attention they wanted until the police stops them.
PS: Don't take my post literally in numbers, you know what I mean.
dude i'm sure math wasnt your strongest subject back in school
Dunno why everyone is saying riots are stupid ... I mean throughout history people have been rioting for things they want to see changed (be it corrupt governments, corrupt police, whatever, ... ) Democracy means power to the people and if the politicians (who are elected by the people) don't do their job or whatever( ) it's the duty of the people to go against this.
(Don't call me crazy or something, just saying...)
And ofcourse there's a chance you'll have some assholes amongst the crowd that burn cars and such...
Just felt like posting in this topic, seeing as this is something that interests me.
I have very little tolerance for the police: I realize their job isn't easy, but the amount of stories of corrupt police men just overwhelms me. Rodney King is one example and there are tons more. Luckily I live in Denmark where we have one of the best police forces in the world, bar a few mistakes. This has a lot to do with the low crime rate I think.
I don't know about protesters. 2 years ago the danish government sold a house - it was theirs - in Copenhagen occupied by the anarchist group in Denmark, which spawned huge riots. I didn't particularly like the protests, in which 100's of cars got burned and a entire part of copenhagen was anarchy for a few days, but I just couldn't fathom why the fuck the government would sell the house. It just made zero fucking sense, they weren't using it, it was a ruin noone wanted, and somehow these youngsters found some joy in it - why the hell take it away? I participated in a peaceful protest 9 days after the eviction of Ungdomshuset, as the house was called, just to show my contempt for the actions of the government in a peaceful way. There is, however, a lot of corruption in our modern-day-societies and a 'reboot' as a previous poster put it, is needed. I'm not saying democracy is bad, but it really needs an overhaul in most countries. I'm tired of just throwing my vote once every few years and let that be it. I'm not an anarchist though: society needs some sort of 'guardian' to keep this going smoothly.
Generally I think all authority should be scrutinized to the extreme so shit like this doesn't happen and when it does, the perpetrators get punished.
It reminds me of 1992 LA riot (Rodney King) which was triggered after the four white cops were freed from charges of beating down black motorist Rodney King. African Americans stormed out to the streets assaulting, destroying shops and houses and even murdering in LA for 6 + days. The total casualties 53 and damage estimated up to 1 billion $.
Ironically the biggest victim of the LA riot were Koreans who were occuyping a lot of the commercial/residential spaces.
How would you feel if your house got burnt down or if your sister got killed because of something totally unrelated to you? There are other ways to send the message across rather then sensless looting. Should take a lesson from Dr Martin Luther King.
Criminals are using the chaos to their benefit. They should be shot down.
Well, im sure that mass vandalism and trying to burn policeman is gonna make of Greece a great country.
I dont know if the methods the police use there can be consider as brutality, but answering fire with fire only causes a greater fire and more people get burned.
And if the economy is bad... Well, welcome to the world, and most of it is not rioting like that.
On December 17 2008 18:00 HeadBangaa wrote: Keep in mind, the majority of people on this website believe that the populace at large should be forcefully impotent, entrusting all power to governmental institutions, based on a vague distrust of their fellow community members.
On December 17 2008 23:04 1tym wrote: It reminds me of 1992 LA riot (Rodney King) which was triggered after the four white cops were freed from charges of beating down black motorist Rodney King. African Americans stormed out to the streets assaulting, destroying shops and houses and even murdering in LA for 6 + days. The total casualties 53 and damage estimated up to 1 billion $.
Ironically the biggest victim of the LA riot were Koreans who were occuyping a lot of the commercial/residential spaces.
How would you feel if your house got burnt down or if your sister got killed because of something totally unrelated to you? There are other way to send the message across rather then sensless looting. Should take a lesson from Dr Martin Luther King.
Criminals are using the chaos to their benefit. They should be shot down.
back then some Koreans shared your opinion lol - they went bad ass mode in those riots after their stores started getting looted, bullet proof vests, shoot first, ask later mode (check after minute 1:25)
mem those photo are so nice. but I have no idea what cause that.. I jsut know it is appenning. retard TV news doesn't report the fact or the reason or the cause... only the act of riot ... I FUCKING HATE THE FUCKING NEWS
For anyone who wants a brief and rather objective overview of the situation here, I found this to be quite good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Greek_riots. Obviously, the matter is too complicated to be easily summed up in a few paragraphs, but it should give you a good idea.
One basic thing that people here are getting wrong is that the riots are for the most part not "against police corruption". The causes are many and they are deeply political. And again, this is not about corruption, that's just the tip of the iceberg, I'm talking about the whole system. A lot of people here, even though not the majority, are politically educated enough for riots like this to even be possible. Anarchists are a minority and if a minority can cause meaningless chaos like what is shown in the pictures, you can imagine how many people took part in peaceful demonstrations and other "more civilised" acts triggered by the boy's murder. As someone else already said though, this is not what the media will ever show you. The media are part of the system anyway (always working for and not against it, no matter what seems to be the case in a first glance) and in a way, even though I'm sure most of them don't mean to, anarchists in the end work in the favour of what they're supposed to be struggling against (with that said, they are putting their asses on the line, so I hate seeing people bashing on them, unless they are already taking part in more meaningful political struggle on their own).
Overall, politics is such a complicated issue and should be treated by everyone as such. Many responses here are at least immature and even though I'd like to leave some comments to put some observations on what I believe would be a better track, I don't have the time and energy to do it and maybe even the english eloquence to be able to follow up the ensuing conversation.
Educate yourself politically people. Don't rush to jump to conclusions, but I believe everyone should at least attempt to see a bigger picture of our societies and their progress.
The cop said the kids were throwing molotov cocktails at them and that he fired warning shots. Stupid kid deserved to die for trying to set a policeman on fire like that. Moreover, people vandalizing shops and attacking police officers trying to initiate change also deserve to be shot. It's simple self defense for the riot cops. Do you think these riot police officers are the ones making the economy bad? Yet these people are the ones who get assaulted by mobs.
On December 17 2008 17:29 .risingdragoon wrote: I'm not gonna read through this topic to see if someone else called you on this BS already. Suffice to say democracy in ancient Greece is for a very select few, where it's rigidly caste-based society that's far from the variety we have today. We're talking starcraft circa 2000 vs 2008 here, can't even be compared, totally different ballgame.
Democracy in Athens was not for a very select few. All Athenian men had the right to participate in the Ekklesia and all Athenian men of appropriate ages were eligible to be selected by lot to virtually any position within the government.
You could argue that democracy was for the only a few because slaves and metics could not participate. However, slaves and metics were not Athenians. Do resident aliens vote in the United States?
i believe this will happen in Croatia also in a few years.
The current state is led by 200 families that spread the wealth during the privatization in 1995-1999. The rate of corruption is enormous ( you can buy out of tickets, buy exams on collage, money gets you everywhere ) and shit is about to keep the fan. There are only 2 political parties that have enough to pull the votes, and i don't realy know which one is worse.
What is happening in Greece ( 700 euro generation ) is happening here as we speak.
On December 18 2008 00:39 Track wrote: The cop said the kids were throwing molotov cocktails at them and that he fired warning shots. Stupid kid deserved to die for trying to set a policeman on fire like that. Moreover, people vandalizing shops and attacking police officers trying to initiate change also deserve to be shot. It's simple self defense for the riot cops. Do you think these riot police officers are the ones making the economy bad? Yet these people are the ones who get assaulted by mobs.
Several eye witnesses' testiments contradict the cop's one. As it seems so far there was only verbal quarel.
And... these views of yours remind me of facism.Way to go!
Wonder where all those crush suits come from for the police in riot gear. Either way the kid that got shot is a duche. I blame not allowing them to carry guns lol cuz nothing saying i don't fear the police like your own shotgun! porb a good thing riots with guns = cops with guns = cops get assault rifles = they win. For serious if you deeply believe your government is corrupt why the fuck do you live there.
On December 18 2008 02:11 IzzyCraft wrote: Wonder where all those crush suits come from for the police in riot gear. Either way the kid that got shot is a duche. I blame not allowing them to carry guns lol cuz nothing saying i don't fear the police like your own shotgun! porb a good thing riots with guns = cops with guns = cops get assault rifles = they win. For serious if you deeply believe your government is corrupt why the fuck do you live there.
Because they can't afford to move? I never get the whole "if you don't like it, move" argument.
You can always afford to move =p it's that they don't want to take the risk there are 2 types of moving planned where they get a job adn everything before they move and risk related where you just move and take up housing and job where you can. Apparently it's bad enough that they want to riot but not bad enough they want to move. People get used to a standard of living but apparently fear of the government is not greater then a loss of standard of living.
On December 18 2008 02:37 Savio wrote: Buncha idiots. If I was a riot police and someone threw a molotav cocktail at me, I would unload an entire clip and them and their friends.
EDIT: When people go that far, they shouldn't complain when they start ending up in coffins.
Freedom is not free lad, it costs blood, innocent blood. Srsly, in some threads, americans shouldnt be able to post. Too much obnoxiousness
On December 18 2008 02:11 IzzyCraft wrote: Wonder where all those crush suits come from for the police in riot gear. Either way the kid that got shot is a duche. I blame not allowing them to carry guns lol cuz nothing saying i don't fear the police like your own shotgun! porb a good thing riots with guns = cops with guns = cops get assault rifles = they win. For serious if you deeply believe your government is corrupt why the fuck do you live there.
Because they can't afford to move? I never get the whole "if you don't like it, move" argument.
Middle-Upper Class (mostly white) males assume that everyone has the same privledges that they enjoy such as affordable housing in in area's that are occupied by people predominatly of their own race.
Daily effects of white privilege by. Peggy MacIntosh I decided to try to work on myself at least by identifying some of the daily effects of white privilege in my life. I have chosen those conditions that I think in my case attach somewhat more to skin-color privilege than to class, religion, ethnic status, or geographic location, though of course all these other factors are intricately intertwined. As far as I can tell, my African American coworkers, friends, and acquaintances with whom I come into daily or frequent contact in this particular time, place and time of work cannot count on most of these conditions.
1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.
2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.
3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.
4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.
5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.
6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.
7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.
8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.
9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.
10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.
11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.
12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.
13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.
14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.
15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.
16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.
17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.
18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.
19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.
20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.
21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.
22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.
23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.
24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.
25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.
26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.
27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.
28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.
29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.
30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.
31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.
32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.
33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.
34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.
35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.
36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.
37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.
38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.
39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.
40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.
41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.
42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.
43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.
44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.
45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.
46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.
47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.
48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.
49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.
50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social
On December 18 2008 02:37 Savio wrote: Buncha idiots. If I was a riot police and someone threw a molotav cocktail at me, I would unload an entire clip and them and their friends.
EDIT: When people go that far, they shouldn't complain when they start ending up in coffins.
Freedom is not free lad, it costs blood, innocent blood. Srsly, in some threads, americans shouldnt be able to post. Too much obnoxiousness
And from Brazil you know exactly what Greece is going though i mean come the fuck on Greece is part of the EU they have a pretty stable government set up. What are they making they work in slave camps in Greece not able to leave the country? Wtf is up with you people and revolution frankly you been watching too much movies and your mind been all polluted.They are fucking Free if you are free to leave you are free if you feel oppressed by your government leave that government god dam people. There is no refugee camp for people leaving Greece they are already free.
On December 18 2008 02:11 IzzyCraft wrote: Wonder where all those crush suits come from for the police in riot gear. Either way the kid that got shot is a duche. I blame not allowing them to carry guns lol cuz nothing saying i don't fear the police like your own shotgun! porb a good thing riots with guns = cops with guns = cops get assault rifles = they win. For serious if you deeply believe your government is corrupt why the fuck do you live there.
Because they can't afford to move? I never get the whole "if you don't like it, move" argument.
Middle-Upper Class (mostly white) males assume that everyone has the same privledges that they enjoy such as affordable housing in in area's that are occupied by people predominatly of their own race.
I'm lower middle class White and Asian oh yeah my skin in brown engot jack ass go suck a racist rod or some shit. You porb don't even know what it means to live out of an apartment as a family. Also affordable housing i live in cali bay area has some of the highest cost of living in America.I'm going to a community college even though i was accepted into uc system because i didn't get enough scholarships so my family couldn't afford such shit so i'm going to cc for 1 ish years then transferring and taking out a government loan.
Theres a greater freedom to be earn, that bond of trust with the government, with the police, the lack of it changes your life and your perceptions in ways you probably cant imagine.
I feel sad that you think this is all a bunch of revolution crap/too many movies, because a mock democracy filled with corruption, is nothing close to a real democracy.
the greeks are free to abandon theyr contry, theyr home, that theyr ancestors fought for millenia ago, or they can insurge again, against the crimes of the police/politicians, against a broken system that slowly drains all of the peoples morale.
The difference between Brazil and Greece, is that they wont take shit from theyr leaders, we do.
On December 18 2008 02:37 Savio wrote: Buncha idiots. If I was a riot police and someone threw a molotav cocktail at me, I would unload an entire clip and them and their friends.
EDIT: When people go that far, they shouldn't complain when they start ending up in coffins.
Freedom is not free lad, it costs blood, innocent blood. Srsly, in some threads, americans shouldnt be able to post. Too much obnoxiousness
And from Brazil you know exactly what Greece is going though i mean come the fuck on Greece is part of the EU they have a pretty stable government set up. What are they making they work in slave camps in Greece not able to leave the country? Wtf is up with you people and revolution frankly you been watching too much movies and your mind been all polluted.They are fucking Free if you are free to leave you are free if you feel oppressed by your government leave that government god dam people. There is no refugee camp for people leaving Greece they are already free.
On December 18 2008 02:11 IzzyCraft wrote: Wonder where all those crush suits come from for the police in riot gear. Either way the kid that got shot is a duche. I blame not allowing them to carry guns lol cuz nothing saying i don't fear the police like your own shotgun! porb a good thing riots with guns = cops with guns = cops get assault rifles = they win. For serious if you deeply believe your government is corrupt why the fuck do you live there.
Because they can't afford to move? I never get the whole "if you don't like it, move" argument.
Middle-Upper Class (mostly white) males assume that everyone has the same privledges that they enjoy such as affordable housing in in area's that are occupied by people predominatly of their own race.
I'm lower middle class White and Asian oh yeah my skin in brown engot jack ass go suck a racist rod or some shit. You porb don't even know what it means to live out of an apartment as a family. Also affordable housing i live in cali bay area has some of the highest cost of living in America.
These things being true, why do you respond to my post? Its obviously not about you specifically but concerning general trends in society. Please do not be upset by a post that has nothing to do with you... I offered an explaination, it may be wrong or right in specific cases but generally this effect can be observed in society.
On December 18 2008 02:37 Savio wrote: Buncha idiots. If I was a riot police and someone threw a molotav cocktail at me, I would unload an entire clip and them and their friends.
EDIT: When people go that far, they shouldn't complain when they start ending up in coffins.
Freedom is not free lad, it costs blood, innocent blood. Srsly, in some threads, americans shouldnt be able to post. Too much obnoxiousness
And from Brazil you know exactly what Greece is going though i mean come the fuck on Greece is part of the EU they have a pretty stable government set up. What are they making they work in slave camps in Greece not able to leave the country? Wtf is up with you people and revolution frankly you been watching too much movies and your mind been all polluted.They are fucking Free if you are free to leave you are free if you feel oppressed by your government leave that government god dam people. There is no refugee camp for people leaving Greece they are already free.
On December 18 2008 03:32 AdamBanks wrote:
On December 18 2008 02:30 KissBlade wrote:
On December 18 2008 02:11 IzzyCraft wrote: Wonder where all those crush suits come from for the police in riot gear. Either way the kid that got shot is a duche. I blame not allowing them to carry guns lol cuz nothing saying i don't fear the police like your own shotgun! porb a good thing riots with guns = cops with guns = cops get assault rifles = they win. For serious if you deeply believe your government is corrupt why the fuck do you live there.
Because they can't afford to move? I never get the whole "if you don't like it, move" argument.
Middle-Upper Class (mostly white) males assume that everyone has the same privledges that they enjoy such as affordable housing in in area's that are occupied by people predominatly of their own race.
I'm lower middle class White and Asian oh yeah my skin in brown engot jack ass go suck a racist rod or some shit. You porb don't even know what it means to live out of an apartment as a family. Also affordable housing i live in cali bay area has some of the highest cost of living in America.
These things being true, why do you respond to my post? Its obviously not about you specifically but concerning general trends in society. Please do not be upset by a post that has nothing to do with you... I offered an explaination, it may be wrong or right in specific cases but generally this effect can be observed in society.
troll off?
If i wanted to troll i would go STFU CANADA! Anyways what can be observed is that upper middle class white at lest Americans don't like to move because most don't like change you don't generally become upper middle class by changing alot unless you're still young.=p
On December 18 2008 02:11 IzzyCraft wrote: Wonder where all those crush suits come from for the police in riot gear. Either way the kid that got shot is a duche. I blame not allowing them to carry guns lol cuz nothing saying i don't fear the police like your own shotgun! porb a good thing riots with guns = cops with guns = cops get assault rifles = they win. For serious if you deeply believe your government is corrupt why the fuck do you live there.
Because they can't afford to move? I never get the whole "if you don't like it, move" argument.
Middle-Upper Class (mostly white) males assume that everyone has the same privledges that they enjoy such as affordable housing in in area's that are occupied by people predominatly of their own race.
Daily effects of white privilege by. Peggy MacIntosh I decided to try to work on myself at least by identifying some of the daily effects of white privilege in my life. I have chosen those conditions that I think in my case attach somewhat more to skin-color privilege than to class, religion, ethnic status, or geographic location, though of course all these other factors are intricately intertwined. As far as I can tell, my African American coworkers, friends, and acquaintances with whom I come into daily or frequent contact in this particular time, place and time of work cannot count on most of these conditions.
1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.
2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.
3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.
4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.
5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.
6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.
7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.
8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.
9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.
10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.
11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.
12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.
13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.
14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.
15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.
16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.
17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.
18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.
19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.
20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.
21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.
22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.
23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.
24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.
25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.
26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.
27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.
28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.
29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.
30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.
31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.
32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.
33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.
34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.
35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.
36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.
37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.
38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.
39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.
40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.
41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.
42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.
43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.
44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.
45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.
46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.
47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.
48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.
49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.
50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social
Yay i love making broad generalizations about other people that make broad generalizations
On December 18 2008 02:37 Savio wrote: Buncha idiots. If I was a riot police and someone threw a molotav cocktail at me, I would unload an entire clip and them and their friends.
EDIT: When people go that far, they shouldn't complain when they start ending up in coffins.
Freedom is not free lad, it costs blood, innocent blood. Srsly, in some threads, americans shouldnt be able to post. Too much obnoxiousness
hey man im american and i agree with the cost of freedom and yet how i'm willing to pay for it
ignore the neocon :D
jkjkjk but srsly freedom is the greatest thing on earth
I'd say society is the greatest thing on earth. I don't want to be entirely free, I want to have obligations to help and aid and i want others to have obligations to serve and protect. But then again at least I have the freedom to sacrifice my freedom in the first place. So I guess I agree. But then again, philosophically, I don't believe any of us have freedom, so there ya go.
Ps this thread was pretty old news when posted, just sayin'. Moar kurant apheirs peepul.
The riots are caused by economic reasons IMO. European Union is basically making people poor. Especially the young. As described in the blog, there is a "700 euro generation" of overworked, underpaid and debt-ridden people. Such problems occur in the whole EU - e.g. in Italy, they have been talking about "1000 euro generation", there are problems with employment in France, which were "solved" by introducing 35h working weeks. The CEE countries such as Poland have big problems with emigration - a lot of young people travel to other EU countries, because instead of earning PLN 900 (which is not much), they can earn EUR 900, which is still not much, but a bit more in terms of purchasing power.
I have the feeling that free trade system will actually collapse, as it means that technically the incomes should get averaged - the Chinese will earn more, while everyone else will earn less. Perhaps bringing back duties could do it. Its also the problem of introducing euro, the monetary policy and many other policies, which simply slow down the development e.g. Germany has been having economic problems for quite a long time now.
Not sure about such countries as France, or the UK; but the government sectors seem to be very inefficient in many EU countries - e.g. Greece, Italy, Poland etc.
On December 18 2008 00:39 Track wrote: The cop said the kids were throwing molotov cocktails at them and that he fired warning shots. Stupid kid deserved to die for trying to set a policeman on fire like that. Moreover, people vandalizing shops and attacking police officers trying to initiate change also deserve to be shot. It's simple self defense for the riot cops. Do you think these riot police officers are the ones making the economy bad? Yet these people are the ones who get assaulted by mobs.
Sorry m8 but story is complicated.Seems that the 15 yr old kid wasn't involved at all.He was at the wrong place the wrong time.In the area that he was,violence between anarchists and cops is quite often. The cop that killed him must have serious psychological problems because he decided to park his car and start chasing with his gun a party of people who offended him(different party),find in the way the party of the 15yr old kid and just aim,shoot ,kill him and leave.Here is a video showing the 2 cops leaving after the shooting.
As for the riots,it is true that in major cities all over Greece there has been havoc (i can tell you that in cities not as big as Athens,policemen were locked in their stations until things calm down a little bit,before going out to the streets again) but there are a couple of issues here but the major one is economical and the forthcoming crisis.
First of all Greece has Huge economical scandals and the 2 parties that have been in power for the last 25-30 years have gathered money and power,benefiting specific people(bankers,small group of businessmen,media).Greece compared to other EU nations is more expensive and people have the lowest income among all citizens in the EU.The specific political party that is in power since 2004 is facing HUUUGE economical scandals and people just couldn't take any more.some say that the riots could be controlled, but the government decided to let chaos and destruction so that public opinion would turn against the people who destroy everything and forget about the scandals. Some say that they are just to incapable.You choose! But the riots were for economical reason mostly because previous generations are forcing today's and the forthcoming ones into a society where they can't actually LIVE their LIVES ! as for the vandalism you all know that whenever things get out of control,there will always exist people who like to destroy everything around them.Situations like this have happened in France a couple of years ago,in LA almost 20 years ago and so on.....
Canadian and American civilians balls are no where near as big as the rest World's peoples.
Of course, this is just a personal opinion but so much b.s happens here but not "bad enough" for the masses to take action. North Americans have their own prerogative to decide what they want to do but in the end, I think it's due to fear of the government.
Governments should be scared of their people, not the other way around.
On December 18 2008 06:28 jjun212 wrote: This takes balls.
Canadian and American civilians balls are no where near as big as the rest World's peoples.
Of course, this is just a personal opinion but so much b.s happens here but not "bad enough" for the masses to take action. North Americans have their own prerogative to decide what they want to do but in the end, I think it's due to fear of the government.
Governments should be scared of their people, not the other way around.
America and, I would assume, Canada have had their share of riots in the last century, not to mention large protests. As an American I find it hard to imagine myself rioting of trying to cause any problems with the current government considering I still have the opportunity to get food, shelter, and education for relatively cheap.
If those resources were pinched do you honestly think a riot in North America would be any different from those in Greece. To say we're afraid of our government is a bold statement, especially considering we are one of the most violent nations of the world.
Glad we got some posts from the greek(s), I had assumed that the whole situation was just violent protest, but I was wrong.
Does anyone know where I can get the picture in 1:19 of this video?
On December 17 2008 14:23 Quesadilla wrote: It's actually not that cool. People dying and getting set on fire for the cause of anarchy is pretty stupid.
On December 18 2008 02:11 IzzyCraft wrote: Wonder where all those crush suits come from for the police in riot gear. Either way the kid that got shot is a duche. I blame not allowing them to carry guns lol cuz nothing saying i don't fear the police like your own shotgun! porb a good thing riots with guns = cops with guns = cops get assault rifles = they win. For serious if you deeply believe your government is corrupt why the fuck do you live there.
Because they can't afford to move? I never get the whole "if you don't like it, move" argument.
Middle-Upper Class (mostly white) males assume that everyone has the same privledges that they enjoy such as affordable housing in in area's that are occupied by people predominatly of their own race.
Daily effects of white privilege by. Peggy MacIntosh I decided to try to work on myself at least by identifying some of the daily effects of white privilege in my life. I have chosen those conditions that I think in my case attach somewhat more to skin-color privilege than to class, religion, ethnic status, or geographic location, though of course all these other factors are intricately intertwined. As far as I can tell, my African American coworkers, friends, and acquaintances with whom I come into daily or frequent contact in this particular time, place and time of work cannot count on most of these conditions.
1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.
2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.
3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.
4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.
5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.
6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.
7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.
8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.
9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.
10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.
11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.
12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.
13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.
14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.
15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.
16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.
17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.
18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.
19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.
20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.
21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.
22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.
23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.
24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.
25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.
26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.
27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.
28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.
29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.
30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.
31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.
32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.
33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.
34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.
35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.
36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.
37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.
38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.
39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.
40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.
41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.
42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.
43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.
44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.
45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.
46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.
47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.
48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.
49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.
50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social
Yay i love making broad generalizations about other people that make broad generalizations
fucking hypocrites.
If you're kidding that's kinda funny. If not it's kinda funny too. Different ways.
Most of these riots, from anti-globalization to anti-government are just a bunch of teenagers and twenty-somethings who feel badass and enjoy throwing stones/breaking windows. Think about it: is it really a protest when a bunch of people go out, feel like victims in the face of police, and shout things / break things / throw things? No, it's a party. It's fun. If you really want to protest, do something you don't enjoy: please tell me when any of these rioters in masks throwing stones at police and burning cars decide to follow a real hunger strike, or practice self-immolation, or chain themselves up for weeks. Didn't think so.
Looking for some sort of ideological meaning in them is pretty pointless. In other words, these are riots for the sake of rioting, not protests for the sake of protesting.
On December 18 2008 06:28 jjun212 wrote: This takes balls.
Canadian and American civilians balls are no where near as big as the rest World's peoples.
Of course, this is just a personal opinion but so much b.s happens here but not "bad enough" for the masses to take action. North Americans have their own prerogative to decide what they want to do but in the end, I think it's due to fear of the government.
Governments should be scared of their people, not the other way around.
Yeah shame North America is so far behind Greece, Italy and Spain. Oh wait, those countries are not nearly as good in any metric.
On December 18 2008 06:20 L wrote: I have the utmost sympathies for americans who have forgotten that their country is the result of a big ass riot.
It wasn't a riot, it was a war. People who took part in it had a good chance of dying. The punishment for leading it was execution (if they had failed).
The events in Greece are a bunch of kids enjoying themselves with little to no risk because they are in a big group. There's a huge difference.
I kind of agree with cz dumb teens thinking they will make a change by burning stuff. They probably go home after the riot jump on facebook and send nudges and shit. Ghandi knows where it`s at. Mad respect for him. Seriously defying authority is not cool anymore.
On December 18 2008 12:35 BatTheMan wrote: I kind of agree with cz dumb teens thinking they will make a change by burning stuff. They probably go home after the riot jump on facebook and send nudges and shit. Ghandi knows where it`s at. Mad respect for him. Seriously defying authority is not cool anymore.
It's not that they are misguided, ie you say "thinking they will make a change", it's just that their motivations are not even about protest, it's about having fun with the veneer of protesting some cause. While there is obviously a spark to all this, I am willing to bet 90% of the people in these riots know very little about it and are just out for the thrill of vandalism, immune from the law, and the feeling of being victimized by "the man" or "the corporations" or "the shadow govt" or whatever they view as controlling riot police.
There's also nothing wrong with defying authority, but there are ways to do so that don't hurt people who have no power in the situation (ie people who parked their cars on the street, shopowners) and get your message across.
There's the famous self-immolation of a Buddhist priest protesting the Vietnam War, Gandhi led several marches and told his people to fill the jails by requesting the harshest sentences, and there are obviously hunger strikes and self-containment by chaining yourself to something. You can also peacefully protest (ie a lot of the Iraq War protests in big cities). These people choose to riot not because they want to get a point across, but rather because everyone else is doing it and it's fun. Why go out to a rave when you can throw stones at windows?
On December 17 2008 14:41 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Folca, are you retarded? I feel as though I should elaborate.
You are retarded. Democracy was founded in Greece, it was a less spread form however. It was in Athens where they had sort of a senate who decided things that happened, upper class people decided things instead of a king (I am not going to go into an entire history lesson, this is my brief summary)
Even today, they have a Democratic country, with an official elected by there parliament for a 5 year term. If you want to think that's not democratic because parliament elects him, then neither is America. Since popular vote doesn't actually elect people, its the electoral one.
They had democracy 2050 years ago, the rest 2049 years they have sociopathic-rule of chaos.
Go riot go... Not to mention they are doing damage to themselfs and not their goverment and their corupted politicians and businessmen. 150 millions in damages in a year in recesion, hah... go riot go
On December 18 2008 12:41 cz wrote: There's also nothing wrong with defying authority, but there are ways to do so that don't hurt people who have no power in the situation (ie people who parked their cars on the street, shopowners) and get your message across.
There's the famous self-immolation of a Buddhist priest protesting the Vietnam War, Gandhi led several marches and told his people to fill the jails by requesting the harshest sentences, and there are obviously hunger strikes and self-containment by chaining yourself to something. You can also peacefully protest (ie a lot of the Iraq War protests in big cities). These people choose to riot not because they want to get a point across, but rather because everyone else is doing it and it's fun. Why go out to a rave when you can throw stones at windows?
yea we`re on the same page, you`re just more articulate about it. division only leads to more division. Shit like that is going to happen more and more though until everything burns or evolves.
On December 18 2008 06:28 jjun212 wrote: This takes balls.
Canadian and American civilians balls are no where near as big as the rest World's peoples.
Of course, this is just a personal opinion but so much b.s happens here but not "bad enough" for the masses to take action. North Americans have their own prerogative to decide what they want to do but in the end, I think it's due to fear of the government.
Governments should be scared of their people, not the other way around.
lol, you clearly have no idea what happens in north america. We are prosperous. Yeah our government dicks us around some times, but we are rich. Generally speaking. Thats why we dont get pissed off as easily. In Europe its more cramped, theres more poverty, theres rapid social change, religious and ethnic clashes. Of course there are going to be riots. Europe is unstable- comparatively- as it always has been and always will. America/Canada are chugging along, with a few bad things happening, but nothing too significant. Yet.
A few people can be in definitely in the wrong, but when a large group of people are willing to face off against another large group (in this case, rioters vs government), then there are almost certainly deeper problems. This bases itself on the basic statistical assumptions that among a distributed population, there aren't abnormally high concentrations of psychotics, and that people are all created, at least to some extent about moral judgment, equal. Is anyone completely in the right? Certainly not. But one side has to be more in the wrong than the other.
While I don't have a developed opinion on this issue specifically, I noticed a lot of people in this thread seem to champion rioting as *always* wrong, clearly doing so without actually researching this case in specific. The arguments supporting those claims is that peaceful demonstration will always work. (Which they don't; the example of ending slavery, which was brought up, was to a much greater extent economic free-labor, which is entirely situational as opposed to general, rather than to abolitionist moral rectitude. It was also based upon war?)
. For serious if you deeply believe your government is corrupt why the fuck do you live there.
When you live somewhere, you have a right to the land, so long as it was earned through honest labor?
It's hilarious that you mention how African Americans eventually won their rights, while advocating that, "They should've just moved?"
If everyone just moved to wherever they wanted to move, rather than expressing change, violent or otherwise, (Keep in mind that all of the prominent non-violent movements, however grand they be, are all backed by violence) even assuming that moving was socioeconomically viable for everyone, imagine where we'd be today eh? Slavery and black codes in the US, Monarchies and despots in Europe, Empires in Asia, Sovietism in Russia, etc, etc, etc. Don't solve stuff, move somewhere else!
And look where we are in Africa eh? Refugees everywhere. People displaced (<--- that is not a good thing, for you move-advocates). Problems everywhere. Shit is not being solved. No, I am not saying that riots would solve the problem in that case, but "if you don't like it, move" mentality is borderlining on complete ignorance.
On December 18 2008 13:02 Dazed_Spy wrote: this is a pretty cool riot.
Like half of the protesters are in the most epic, iconic poses you could possibly be in-- all while the city burns around you. Random.
Yeah brah.
Btw you finished Mr. Stevens' bio assignment yet? I can't figure out question 3.
PS I can't believe we're going to high school in just 8 MONTHS! WOO!
cya in class tomorrow dazed
Lol, that was a really pathetic attempt at an insult. Oh poor immature me, Im not empathetic that people are having a shitty life SOMEWHERE in the world, at some point in time. Fuck off dude. How long am I seriously suppose to care that people die in wars? Terrorist bombings? Starvation? Disease? It's a common mother fucking occurrence and it always will be, its on the news every damn night, and when its half way across the globe- yes, I am fucking desensitized. And you really don't have any moral high ground in all this, because its pretty damn assured you are desensitized as well.
On December 18 2008 13:12 SerpentFlame wrote: A few people can be in definitely in the wrong, but when a large group of people are willing to face off against another large group (in this case, rioters vs government), then there are almost certainly deeper problems. This bases itself on the basic statistical assumptions that among a distributed population, there aren't abnormally high concentrations of psychotics, and that people are all created, at least to some extent about moral judgment, equal. Is anyone completely in the right? Certainly not. But one side has to be more in the wrong than the other.
While I don't have a developed opinion on this issue specifically, I noticed a lot of people in this thread seem to champion rioting as *always* wrong, clearly doing so without actually researching this case in specific. The arguments supporting those claims is that peaceful demonstration will always work. (Which they don't; the example of ending slavery, which was brought up, was to a much greater extent economic free-labor, which is entirely situational as opposed to general, rather than to abolitionist moral rectitude. It was also based upon war?)
. For serious if you deeply believe your government is corrupt why the fuck do you live there.
When you live somewhere, you have a right to the land, so long as it was earned through honest labor?
It's hilarious that you mention how African Americans eventually won their rights, while advocating that, "They should've just moved?"
If everyone just moved to wherever they wanted to move, rather than expressing change, violent or otherwise, (Keep in mind that all of the prominent non-violent movements, however grand they be, are all backed by violence) even assuming that moving was socioeconomically viable for everyone, imagine where we'd be today eh? Slavery and black codes in the US, Monarchies and despots in Europe, Empires in Asia, Sovietism in Russia, etc, etc, etc. Don't solve stuff, move somewhere else!
And look where we are in Africa eh? Refugees everywhere. People displaced (<--- that is not a good thing, for you move-advocates). Problems everywhere. Shit is not being solved. No, I am not saying that riots would solve the problem in that case, but "if you don't like it, move" mentality is borderlining on complete ignorance.
I think you are looking at this backwards. You write "when a large people are willing to face off" as if it's some sort of trial or risk: it's not. The demography taking part in this riot is mostly young males: throwing stones, rioting, yelling, flipping cars is FUN and exhilarating. A hunger strike would show commitment and real concern, young people playing GTA all over the streets of a city is not.
My view of this is while there is a cause to the beginning of it, once it hits a critical mass and is viewed as socially acceptable, all kinds of people come out of the woodwork, wanting the fun and exhilaration of rioting. There are probably some people who really want to effect social change in these riots, but I believe they are a very small minority. The rest are using the cause as a front for their own enjoyment at breaking societal rules in an unusual event, protected by anonymity and the size of the groups. They can probably identify to original cause that is being protested, but I seriously doubt they would be willing to actually negatively affect their lives to protest it. Therefore they don't seriously care about it.
On December 18 2008 13:02 Dazed_Spy wrote: this is a pretty cool riot.
Like half of the protesters are in the most epic, iconic poses you could possibly be in-- all while the city burns around you. Random.
Yeah brah.
Btw you finished Mr. Stevens' bio assignment yet? I can't figure out question 3.
PS I can't believe we're going to high school in just 8 MONTHS! WOO!
cya in class tomorrow dazed
Lol, that was a really pathetic attempt at an insult. Oh poor immature me, Im not empathetic that people are having a shitty life SOMEWHERE in the world, at some point in time. Fuck off dude. How long am I seriously suppose to care that people die in wars? Terrorist bombings? Starvation? Disease? It's a common mother fucking occurrence and it always will be, its on the news every damn night, and when its half way across the globe- yes, I am fucking desensitized. And you really don't have any moral high ground in all this, because its pretty damn assured you are desensitized as well.
You got owned, move on.
PS I'm doing a pretty epic and iconic pose right now with your whining in the background. Ranodm
On December 18 2008 13:02 Dazed_Spy wrote: this is a pretty cool riot.
Like half of the protesters are in the most epic, iconic poses you could possibly be in-- all while the city burns around you. Random.
Yeah brah.
Btw you finished Mr. Stevens' bio assignment yet? I can't figure out question 3.
PS I can't believe we're going to high school in just 8 MONTHS! WOO!
cya in class tomorrow dazed
Lol, that was a really pathetic attempt at an insult. Oh poor immature me, Im not empathetic that people are having a shitty life SOMEWHERE in the world, at some point in time. Fuck off dude. How long am I seriously suppose to care that people die in wars? Terrorist bombings? Starvation? Disease? It's a common mother fucking occurrence and it always will be, its on the news every damn night, and when its half way across the globe- yes, I am fucking desensitized. And you really don't have any moral high ground in all this, because its pretty damn assured you are desensitized as well.
You got owned, move on.
Random.
So how much charities have you donated to today? [Or ever]?
On December 18 2008 13:02 Dazed_Spy wrote: this is a pretty cool riot.
Like half of the protesters are in the most epic, iconic poses you could possibly be in-- all while the city burns around you. Random.
Yeah brah.
Btw you finished Mr. Stevens' bio assignment yet? I can't figure out question 3.
PS I can't believe we're going to high school in just 8 MONTHS! WOO!
cya in class tomorrow dazed
Lol, that was a really pathetic attempt at an insult. Oh poor immature me, Im not empathetic that people are having a shitty life SOMEWHERE in the world, at some point in time. Fuck off dude. How long am I seriously suppose to care that people die in wars? Terrorist bombings? Starvation? Disease? It's a common mother fucking occurrence and it always will be, its on the news every damn night, and when its half way across the globe- yes, I am fucking desensitized. And you really don't have any moral high ground in all this, because its pretty damn assured you are desensitized as well.
You got owned, move on.
Random.
So how much charities have you donated to today? [Or ever]?
On December 18 2008 13:02 Dazed_Spy wrote: this is a pretty cool riot.
Like half of the protesters are in the most epic, iconic poses you could possibly be in-- all while the city burns around you. Random.
Yeah brah.
Btw you finished Mr. Stevens' bio assignment yet? I can't figure out question 3.
PS I can't believe we're going to high school in just 8 MONTHS! WOO!
cya in class tomorrow dazed
Lol, that was a really pathetic attempt at an insult. Oh poor immature me, Im not empathetic that people are having a shitty life SOMEWHERE in the world, at some point in time. Fuck off dude. How long am I seriously suppose to care that people die in wars? Terrorist bombings? Starvation? Disease? It's a common mother fucking occurrence and it always will be, its on the news every damn night, and when its half way across the globe- yes, I am fucking desensitized. And you really don't have any moral high ground in all this, because its pretty damn assured you are desensitized as well.
You got owned, move on.
Random.
So how much charities have you donated to today? [Or ever]?
On December 18 2008 13:02 Dazed_Spy wrote: this is a pretty cool riot.
Like half of the protesters are in the most epic, iconic poses you could possibly be in-- all while the city burns around you. Random.
Yeah brah.
Btw you finished Mr. Stevens' bio assignment yet? I can't figure out question 3.
PS I can't believe we're going to high school in just 8 MONTHS! WOO!
cya in class tomorrow dazed
Lol, that was a really pathetic attempt at an insult. Oh poor immature me, Im not empathetic that people are having a shitty life SOMEWHERE in the world, at some point in time. Fuck off dude. How long am I seriously suppose to care that people die in wars? Terrorist bombings? Starvation? Disease? It's a common mother fucking occurrence and it always will be, its on the news every damn night, and when its half way across the globe- yes, I am fucking desensitized. And you really don't have any moral high ground in all this, because its pretty damn assured you are desensitized as well.
You got owned, move on.
Random.
So how much charities have you donated to today? [Or ever]?
Too busy with the epic and iconic poses. Random.
You got owned, move on.
Now you're saying what I'm saying! I guess I should write a novel of a response stating that I view your response as inadequate, like you did.
On December 18 2008 05:23 closed wrote: The riots are caused by economic reasons IMO. European Union is basically making people poor. Especially the young. As described in the blog, there is a "700 euro generation" of overworked, underpaid and debt-ridden people. Such problems occur in the whole EU - e.g. in Italy, they have been talking about "1000 euro generation", there are problems with employment in France, which were "solved" by introducing 35h working weeks. The CEE countries such as Poland have big problems with emigration - a lot of young people travel to other EU countries, because instead of earning PLN 900 (which is not much), they can earn EUR 900, which is still not much, but a bit more in terms of purchasing power.
I have the feeling that free trade system will actually collapse, as it means that technically the incomes should get averaged - the Chinese will earn more, while everyone else will earn less. Perhaps bringing back duties could do it. Its also the problem of introducing euro, the monetary policy and many other policies, which simply slow down the development e.g. Germany has been having economic problems for quite a long time now.
Not sure about such countries as France, or the UK; but the government sectors seem to be very inefficient in many EU countries - e.g. Greece, Italy, Poland etc.
Are you referring to my blog ? Yea I agree with you. (In my last blog post I had a similar article.)
You do know that the one's that put the shops on fire, that destroyed cars etc etc arent anarchists and are police puppets who are controlled by the goverment and influence the youngsters. If you dont there is a video that shows a guy with a bat doing damage to different kind of places and then a camera from a balcony has the same guy talking with policemen before the episodes take place. and it wasnt just 1 guy there were more. The system as I call it is way corrupt.
Do you know our president is playing playstation after 9 o clock ??? Do you know our president is gay and had relationships with other gay ministers. His wife is just a cover. People dont know this shit. We suck as a country and all these riots are made so people WAKE up. and im really glad young people woke up and did all these peacefull riots. Because there were peacefull ones as well. Which they dont show on TV just to make the youngsters look bad throwing molotov to police men. SHOW me in this thread the many many pictures were police men hit innocent people that dont do shit. Where are those? kek.
Also today. 18/12/2008 at a school someone shot a young boy aged 14 at the school yard when he was just talking with 2 other of his classmates. He didnt do anything wrong they were just having a conversation in a school break. FFS.
PS: The goverment wants to cover up ALL the shit they have done with the economy of our country and this indeed was a breakout. It was about time something hit them.
PS2: The riots are being continued upto this day.
I have more to say but dont got the time hehe. Btw I am really sad that shoe didnt hit bush and he dodged it! damn!
Riots are the dumbest shit. Burning down cars, stores and other private citizen shit does absolutely nothing for your cause, besides making the group look like a bunch of idiots. It's a mob mentality—half those people are probably destroying shit for no other reason than it's fun, or because they can get free shit from stores. The other half are just doing it wrong.
If you're gonna do a violent protest/riot, why not target the people that started it, like the Govt. buildings, or the police?
And even then, it's stupid, because this whole thing hasn't even been reviewed. The cop says he got hit with a molatov, while eye witnesses say he was hit with a stone.
And it sucks that the dudes doing it right—the peaceful protests—get limited coverage.
On December 19 2008 04:21 Hawk wrote: Oh, this looks like a fun thread.
Riots are the dumbest shit. Burning down cars, stores and other private citizen shit does absolutely nothing for your cause, besides making the group look like a bunch of idiots. It's a mob mentality—half those people are probably destroying shit for no other reason than it's fun, or because they can get free shit from stores. The other half are just doing it wrong.
If you're gonna do a violent protest/riot, why not target the people that started it, like the Govt. buildings, or the police?
And even then, it's stupid, because this whole thing hasn't even been reviewed. The cop says he got hit with a molatov, while eye witnesses say he was hit with a stone.
And it sucks that the dudes doing it right—the peaceful protests—get limited coverage.
Its being said that it was a bottle of water (the boy that got shot) stones and molotovs were the things people threw in the riots etc after the boy was killed.
Yeah, I understand that's what's being said, but still, nothing's been proven yet. Totally hypothetical, but what if it was proven that he was throwing a molatov or something?
Even still, I just think it's retarded to burn the entire city and damage the stuff of people who haven't a thing to do with it. Go to the source—govt and police—if you must.
SO FUCKING WHAT? you kill someone because of that? Thank god we are not like the United States were the authorities have the right to kill. We will start discussing about the appreciation of the human life now? wake up.
Can you please stop Quoting over and over again those pictures. Yes they are nice. Save them in ur desktop and look at them every day. Here we are discussing about a very big change in my country's history. Its not fun to quote over and over again these pictures!!! A moderator should clean those quotes imo...
heres the thing, if you try to target "the government", the president or head of police or whatever, what happens? you get killed or jailed. a huge massive riot becomes unpunishable because of the amount of people, because no civilized country can possibly incarcerate more than 0.5% of the population (oh look what I did there lol)
also. riots always end up being an outlet for some people who have a lot of destructive energy, and they channel this in a negative way. but these are only some, usually a fraction, of the people involved. and we must not dismiss their reasoning behind rioting even if the way they are going about it is entirely wrong. and even more important, we certainly must not dismiss the peaceful protestors just because a fraction of them are so frustrated that they become violent.
What makes me the most sad (sorry if my english sentence was bad) is that the media and the goverment labeled the death of the 15y old as a "isolated incident".
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
Americans who don't back riots against any corrupt institution aren't very pro-Americans. Our country was founded by a massive riot, and civil liberties gained through getting the government to fear a massive amount of riots.
Everyone in the USA who thinks that what the greeks are doing is uncalled should take a moment to look up Kent State riots.
"Just five days after the shootings, 100,000 people demonstrated in Washington, D.C. against the war and the killing of unarmed student protesters. Ray Price, Nixon's chief speechwriter from 1969-74 recalled the Washington demonstrations saying, "The city was an armed camp. The mobs were smashing windows, slashing tires, dragging parked cars into intersections, even throwing bedsprings off overpasses into the traffic down below. This was the quote, student protest. That's not student protest, that’s civil war."[22] Not only was Nixon taken to Camp David for two days for his own protection, but Charles Colson (Counsel to President Nixon from 1969 to 1973) stated that the military was called up to protect the administration from the angry students, he recalled that "The 82nd Airborne was in the basement of the executive office building, so I went down just to talk to some of the guys and walk among them, and they're lying on the floor leaning on their packs and their helmets and their cartridge belts and their rifles cocked and you’re thinking, 'This can't be the United States of America. This is not the greatest free democracy in the world. This is a nation at war with itself.'"[22]"
On December 19 2008 05:06 ffswowsucks wrote: SO FUCKING WHAT? you kill someone because of that? Thank god we are not like the United States were the authorities have the right to kill. We will start discussing about the appreciation of the human life now? wake up.
If he threw a molatov cocktail at a cop? Yeah, that's way beyond swinging or throwing a rock at a cop dude. That's in the same neighborhood as shooting at or trying to stab a cop. The other shit—rocks, garbage, etc—obviously doesn't merit response with a deadly weapon.
On December 19 2008 05:11 Liquid`Drone wrote: heres the thing, if you try to target "the government", the president or head of police or whatever, what happens? you get killed or jailed. a huge massive riot becomes unpunishable because of the amount of people, because no civilized country can possibly incarcerate more than 0.5% of the population (oh look what I did there lol)
also. riots always end up being an outlet for some people who have a lot of destructive energy, and they channel this in a negative way. but these are only some, usually a fraction, of the people involved. and we must not dismiss their reasoning behind rioting even if the way they are going about it is entirely wrong. and even more important, we certainly must not dismiss the peaceful protestors just because a fraction of them are so frustrated that they become violent.
I don't mean the President, per se, but more like just smashing empty cop cars, throw your firebombs at the police station instead of regular people's cars, something like that. Get the people who fucked up, not the people who are on your side or neutral. That doesn't accomplish anything.
And I know that not all the people rioting are doing it for kicks. I do think the peaceful guys shoulda got more press—that pic with the kid holding the flower was only one of how many pics??
I'm just playing devils advocate here because the media sometiems gets biased—police brutality is always one of those tiems—where they accuse before all the facts come out. Yeah, cops do absolutely retarded shit at times, and this likely could be one of them. But there's also plenty that get hung by the media, and then you never hear from it again if it's found out that the cop was acting properly.
On December 19 2008 05:06 ffswowsucks wrote: SO FUCKING WHAT? you kill someone because of that? Thank god we are not like the United States were the authorities have the right to kill. We will start discussing about the appreciation of the human life now? wake up.
If he threw a molatov cocktail at a cop? Yeah, that's way beyond swinging or throwing a rock at a cop dude. That's in the same neighborhood as shooting at or trying to stab a cop. The other shit—rocks, garbage, etc—obviously doesn't merit response with a deadly weapon.
They are even questioning whether the kid threw the Cocktail himself.
On December 19 2008 05:06 ffswowsucks wrote: SO FUCKING WHAT? you kill someone because of that? Thank god we are not like the United States were the authorities have the right to kill. We will start discussing about the appreciation of the human life now? wake up.
If he threw a molatov cocktail at a cop? Yeah, that's way beyond swinging or throwing a rock at a cop dude. That's in the same neighborhood as shooting at or trying to stab a cop. The other shit—rocks, garbage, etc—obviously doesn't merit response with a deadly weapon.
thats relative, hes a kid, and unless he has a massive stock of molotovs and the guard was on fire there was no reason to shot, since his 1 round of ammo was gone.
On December 19 2008 05:06 ffswowsucks wrote: SO FUCKING WHAT? you kill someone because of that? Thank god we are not like the United States were the authorities have the right to kill. We will start discussing about the appreciation of the human life now? wake up.
If he threw a molatov cocktail at a cop? Yeah, that's way beyond swinging or throwing a rock at a cop dude. That's in the same neighborhood as shooting at or trying to stab a cop. The other shit—rocks, garbage, etc—obviously doesn't merit response with a deadly weapon.
thats relative, hes a kid, and unless he has a massive stock of molotovs and the guard was on fire there was no reason to shot, since his 1 round of ammo was gone.
Unless you've got x-ray goggles on and can see that he's not packing heat under his coat or he doesn't have a knife, then year. But cops don't have that. All they go on is that someone (allegedly—I'm doing hypothetical here) threw a cocktail at him.
Look at the pic with teh cop on fire from a cocktail—you don't think that's grounds to take out whoever threw it?
Because some people dont have a clue about Greece. I ll bring up an example
Some of us are into a bus. The bus has left outside some people. The question is. Are we going to hold into the bus and leave the other people outside or are we going to open the doors and let them in? Or are we going to try and bring in a 2nd bus to put more people in. IF we decide to close up in our bus then the people outside will start throwing stones and try to break the windows to come in. Thats an example of how a society might work. We strive for a better tomorrow, we strive for young people get jobs and reduce unemployment. Striving for all these things have led our country have riots etc. Thats all being done for good reasons. Imagine yourself living in a country and the money you make from the job you work doesnt afford you your power supply. Not everyone have their own shops to live. There are people that right now in greece live with borrowed money. The situation is pretty bad!!
On December 19 2008 05:37 ffswowsucks wrote: Because some people dont have a clue about Greece. I ll bring up an example
Some of us are into a bus. The bus has left outside some people. The question is. Are we going to hold into the bus and leave the other people outside or are we going to open the doors and let them in? Or are we going to try and bring in a 2nd bus to put more people in. IF we decide to close up in our bus then the people outside will start throwing stones and try to break the windows to come in. Thats an example of how a society might work. We strive for a better tomorrow, we strive for young people get jobs and reduce unemployment. Striving for all these things have led our country have riots etc. Thats all being done for good reasons. Imagine yourself living in a country and the money you make from the job you work doesnt afford you your power supply. Not everyone have their own shops to live. There are people that right now in greece live with borrowed money. The situation is pretty bad!!
I feel you that that stuff is all shitty, but I don't think rioting for every issue is the best way to go about getting what you want =p
On December 19 2008 05:44 ffswowsucks wrote: Ok then Im waiting what ur suggestions are.
You are expressing your anger towards your country using the symbol of this boys death for all the fucked up things in Greece. When you calm down a little bit, you will see that and understand that there are other ways to solve problems diplomatically.
You quoted something that is irrelevant with what you said. I asked from Hawk his suggestion. If you have one as well I am open to hear it. Gosh I should make a topic asking for a suggestion on where to migrate. I think Germany would be nice.
I only quoted that post so that you knew I was talking to you. My post still applies, and it is only irrevelant because you might be having trouble comprehending it.
I see a lot of people here dont understand the rioting concept. Writing and arguing that people should calm down and that this is overreacting is simply a hint that they have never been on a situation like this. I like the fact that greece is fighting back, the method is questionable but sometimes theres no OTHER method.
Like kidd said, more diplomatic means. Rioting for every single thing—I think the stones and the bus was just a hypothetical example, not something that actually happened, right?—sets a shitty precedent.
Violent riots should be the last resort in any situation. Especially ones where the people primarily getting fucked by the riots have not a damn thing to do with it.
These riots aren't some random act of violence. This has been coming to a head for a long time in Greece (from what I've been reading). Appealing to the press or protesting outside the police station? Those are things to raise the people's awareness. The corruptions have persisted, and the people are well-aware of them. It seems like the people ARE executing their last resort. They are well past the stage of raising awareness to the problem. How else could you explain the unilateral and immediate reactions of the people? They have every right to riot.
On December 19 2008 07:25 HeadBangaa wrote: How else could you explain the unilateral and immediate reactions of the people?
Rioting is insane fun and all people need is a reason to start it. A kid shot by police in a country depressed by recession is as good a kick-off as you can get. Doesn't change the fact that most people riot just for riot's sake cause it's fun as hell.
On December 19 2008 07:25 HeadBangaa wrote: These riots aren't some random act of violence. This has been coming to a head for a long time in Greece (from what I've been reading). Appealing to the press or protesting outside the police station? Those are things to raise the people's awareness. The corruptions have persisted, and the people are well-aware of them. It seems like the people ARE executing their last resort. They are well past the stage of raising awareness to the problem. How else could you explain the unilateral and immediate reactions of the people? They have every right to riot.
Hawk seems to not have read his lessons well so he fails. you sir pass.
On December 19 2008 07:41 Hawk wrote: Regardless, like I said, it's fucking retarded to burn down the store, home or car of someone who isn't even involved with the shit.
anarchists consist of many different subgroups. Some of them think that they only have to riot against cops. Others think that they must go against cops and major targets like banks and huge stores. Others oppose to all kinds of property, thus they're only looking for a reason to start destroying every thing that they see around. Don't treat them all like one.
To understand what I'm saying, there was a time that some anarchists (not during the riot, some random night) wanted to destroy a bank. However there were many cars parked around so, they started ringing every bell of the houses nearby to wake them up and have them remove the cars so they wouldn't be damaged as well. Most anarchists fall into this category
It is proven again and again that there are many cops in desguise that go into these riots and start destroying cars and random small shops. These are the ones doing most of the "unmoral" stuff.
Also, just because it's mentionted again and again in this thread. Get it clear in your head: The kid that got shot, did NOT throw anything at the cops, definitely not a molotov, there was only a verbal fight between the cops and the group of kids and THAT'S ALL. Cop got out of the car, and murdered the kid. This happened somewhere with coffee shops nearby and many many people saw it happen
On December 19 2008 07:41 Hawk wrote: Regardless, like I said, it's fucking retarded to burn down the store, home or car of someone who isn't even involved with the shit.
People who are fighiting for a cause need attention and support. The people who are neutral that become victims from the rioting will be spurned to action. They will 1) either join the protest (very unlikely) or 2) demand a proper reaction from their government.
I mean, if my house was burned down, i can gauruntee you i'd be hell bent on justice being handed out. If i lost everything and the government didn't do anything to help me, or punish those who did it to me, i'd be starting a riot of my own.
I'm not saying that the random destruction is a good thing or that it is the most effective way of dealing with the situation, but more pointing out that it's not 'useless'.
The intentions of the majority of the rioters are irrelevant. It makes very little difference if someone joins the riot for fun, or because they believe in the cause. Assuming that there is a core of people that had real intentions for change, everyone who joins in - even those for fun - gives the cause momentum. (again, not saying that it is the most effective form of momentum, but is momentum none the less).
I don't know the situation in Greece at all. I do not know the specifics or if they've exhausted other more peaceful options. Regardless, i hope that some good comes from all this; it would be so sad if nothing came to pass but the destruction itself.
On December 19 2008 09:07 Mora wrote: I don't know the situation in Greece at all. I do not know the specifics or if they've exhausted other more peaceful options. Regardless, i hope that some good comes from all this; it would be so sad if nothing came to pass but the destruction itself.
Yeah, the fact is that the ones causing the chaos, like the anarchists they are, the have no organisation, as I said they have many different subgroups so they can't act like one and they definitely have no demands (as in feasible ones, not just their opposition to all kinds of authority and the founding of a new form of an anarchist society etc)
The only result of their actions (which are the ones shown by the media all the time) is making this government look bad so that the next one can come and continue the same kind of politics, in the same system with the same weaknesses and the same results after a similar incident a few years later. This scenario replays itself over and over again pretty much the same in the whole world, giving the illusion of change (just like the Obama election. People believe change has taken place when in reality, capitalism is the same and it goes on, no matter what clothes you put on it.)
Sad that this happened, especially those police officers that were set on fire those images were disturbing. I hope it will at least bring some change in Greece.
On December 19 2008 09:28 Faronel wrote: Sucks for Greece, I guess the government had it coming to them with all their corruption and inanity.
Government is not the one being punished. Its the hard working store owners that are having their stores burned down.
All the poor law abiding people will do now is want to give the government more power so that they can stop the rioters. Pretty stupid huh? Rioters hurting their own cause by making the government out to be ones "saving" and the rioters are the ones destroying.
On December 18 2008 06:28 jjun212 wrote: This takes balls.
Canadian and American civilians balls are no where near as big as the rest World's peoples.
Of course, this is just a personal opinion but so much b.s happens here but not "bad enough" for the masses to take action. North Americans have their own prerogative to decide what they want to do but in the end, I think it's due to fear of the government.
Governments should be scared of their people, not the other way around.
Yeah shame North America is so far behind Greece, Italy and Spain. Oh wait, those countries are not nearly as good in any metric.
=\
I'd expect that kinda response. I never said Canada or America were not "good" countries.
I just said we... because I am Canadian and proud of it actually... but WE would not take to the streets like that, I just don't see it happening at all. The North American system as I have studied in university has it's people scared or controlled by the government. I'm not say mind-controlled or whatever but decisions seem to be made without general consent for whatever reason. Whether it be trade regulations, laws, whatever.
We often let it go by with MAYBE a protest, but to cause havoc across the country is a whole new level. While other countries all over the world, the people have been more motivated to fight for rights, rebel groups, w/e. Obviously because the conditions of their living are not identical to North Americans but that's what I'm trying to say... that WE DON'T have the balls like them because actually we don't. Nothing has given us the reason to have such big balls except maybe the Quebec separatists in Canada who kidnapped officials and forced Pierre Elliot Trudeau and put his foot down but in general, I don't see a lot of this in North America. (Not anymore anyway)
Like the riots among Black people when that innocent Black guy was attacked by cops and it was filmed... I forgot his name. But I've read news about even more police ignorance, accidental shootings but even then, where is the public reaction? It just wouldn't move the WHOLE nation and I'm guessing political ties, financial background and race play a part in it.
*Also, I mentioned in my OP that this is not fact. I have not done any primary or secondary research, and this is all just personal opinion with some random memories of past events that has happened in North America. NOT FACT, I am not saying all of this is the truth and solid and can not be changed so don't cry over it.
I'm amazed that this thread went 10 pages without this quote:
People shouldn't be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.
I know absolutely nothing about the cause of the riots, so I'll refrain from making any remarks except that there's certainly a lot of excessive violence going on :\
On December 19 2008 14:52 Brett wrote: I'm amazed that this thread went 10 pages without this quote:
People shouldn't be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.
I know absolutely nothing about the cause of the riots, so I'll refrain from making any remarks except that there's certainly a lot of excessive violence going on :\
Or in the case of Greece,
"Law abiding, hard working people who own shops should be afraid of people"
Cause when they get mad at the government, they burn your shop down.
On December 19 2008 14:04 Physician wrote: savio lol.. a major wtf at the comment in ur edit ??? lets compare apples with pixie dust no?
The point is that attacking your neighbors when you are mad at the government is just plain stupid. I used the example of rape to elicit an emotional response, but destroying someone's livelihood is a pretty bad thing to do as well.
of course this harms the government. the number one role of government is to maintain security for its people. rioting shows that the government has failed at its most basic purpose.. to borrow a favourite phrase from the GOP, the "law abiding, hard working people who own shops" are "collateral damage".
No. Rioting always reflects worse on yourself than on the government.
Most of the time, the peaceful people in times of riot, put MORE trust in government because they want to be protected.
Besides, doing direct damage to someone who has perhaps worked his whole life to build up what he has, in the hopes of doing some sort of indirect damage to the government is retarded. Especially if that "indirect damage" may actually be benefiting the government.
The way to hurt a politician is to make him look bad and make people not trust them. Rioting makes people turn to the government to protect them. It makes even a corrupt government seem like the "good guy", because your life and livelihood are being attacked on one side and protected by the government on the other. Who are you going to side with?
On December 19 2008 15:49 Savio wrote: Rioting makes people turn to the government to protect them. It makes even a corrupt government seem like the "good guy", because your life and livelihood are being attacked on one side and protected by the government on the other.
problem is, you are making an assumption that more often than not, is not what actually happens; - there have been plenty of riots that ended up with government change, there are plenty of riots were government reaction just makes it even more unpopular (even if succeeds in protecting property), and there are plenty of riots were the main issue, is people are fed up with how the government is protecting them lol.. etc..
"In society there will always be an amazingly large number of confused sheep that will ferociously protect the wolves. The unaware do what they always do, follow blindly, most with a misguided notion that they are doing the right thing and the few that know better, do so in a naive hope that their turn will never come. Reality is, all sheep will be wolf meal."
I wrote that of course when I was a young lad and full of anti-establishment zest. Back then what Zatic commented, would have been an understatement for me. I grew up unfortunately and have become comfortable in my selfish cynicism to the point that these days I realize that my youthful opinion, can actually be applied from both sides.. back then it didn't even cross my mind lol
Anyway When all is said and done, if you are going to be a sheep, then there is only one worthy kind of sheep: the running sheep, that stay alive. Of course if you are a cynic you would have to add another kind of sheep too, the sheep that is a wolf inside.
I'm sure if you actually look at the success rate of riots, you would see that it is pretty sad. Then compare that to the damage inflicted and you'll realize that political campaigns in a democracy are vastly superior outlets and are more effective in bringing about change.
Riots I think happen more because it becomes fun to "be a part of something" and to lose your inhibitions and act like an idiot. They have a spiraling effect because as some people start behaving badly, you realize that the chances of you having to suffer the consequences of bad behavior go down so you let loose...which then causes more people to do the same.
This is also why in a mob, people combined will hurt a person they are attacking worse than any one of them individually would have done it. It's the basest of human nature in action.
On December 17 2008 14:41 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Folca, are you retarded? I feel as though I should elaborate.
You are retarded. Democracy was founded in Greece, it was a less spread form however. It was in Athens where they had sort of a senate who decided things that happened, upper class people decided things instead of a king (I am not going to go into an entire history lesson, this is my brief summary)
Even today, they have a Democratic country, with an official elected by there parliament for a 5 year term. If you want to think that's not democratic because parliament elects him, then neither is America. Since popular vote doesn't actually elect people, its the electoral one.
Yo man lets try to think through our responses here. Democracy as an institution was created in Greece, but the implementation of the romanticized democracy people seem to remember was rather flawed. Aristotle wrote in his book politics about perverted government, and he deemed it necessary that Athens be comprised of an oligarchy, a monarchy, and an assembly to counteract the negatives of each level's perversion. This was implemented as sort of a split democracy, utilizing authoritarianism, council, and a parliament(much like president, senate, and house respectively). Athens did adopt Aristotles methodisms but the Athenian "democracy" that everyone sites as the basis of American democracy is truely the creation of Aristotle. They did have a "king" per se, this is not the run-of-the-mill democracy people think off.
Furthermore, the popular vote has everything to do with the election of a person to office because the electorate actually has no guidelines to vote for anyone, there have been instances where electoral vote isn't dictated by the popular vote at all--they are independent. The popular vote is a reflection of the general inclination for an electorate to cast his ballot this way, and because the electorate in all states has to be unanimous except for Maine, the popular vote is a better indication of who is to be the president. Electorate is a form of indirect democracy or republic that merely reflects the temperment of the voting class, and doesn't really elect the president on a more metaphysical level of politics.
Well, when we talk about Athenian democracy we are really talking about corrupt local politicians trying to represent their districts with an anything goes approach--hey! just like the 21st century. Athens didn't develop democracy, they developed a new methodology of it. Democratic principles can be dated back to Babylon and such, so dont go babbling about how great Athens was for the installment of the western slant on democracy. Interestingly though, both Aristotle and Plato agreed that democracy was not the way to run things in Athens--they believed it gave too much of a voice to the uneducated. The earlier mixed government is the United States way of rule, and in many aspects is not a direct or even a democracy. Socialization of banks,schools,auto industry...the list goes on an on, show the evolution of modern democracy, the one you are thinking, This 21st century shift left on the political spectra best represents the opposite view of aristotle's proposals. So actually the modern "democracy" in America is the anithesis of idealized roots in Athenian government, which is the exact model James Madison installed when he imput his model of government from Aristotle into the constitution and the bill of rights. Nifty, eh?
I don't really disagree with most of what you have said (in this thread!), but major riots happen when they happen, more often than not, they do bring intended change even if the riots "fail" (i.e even the failed TSM brought huge positive changes afterward for China), it's stuff that simply brews and brews until it all ferments and then everyone joins for their different reasons but almost always the common thread is social injustice (not just fun, idiocy etc..), the spark of course can be anything.. - just like these riots in Greece where political campaigns have essentially been failing (otherwise there would be no riots in the first place as u well put so yeah "political campaigns in a democracy are vastly superior outlets and are more effective in bringing about change" - but when they fail, or democracy fails to represent, or there is too much corruption for it to be an effective democracy etc.. riots are bound to happen : ( - in general in my life's experience, riots that bring people from the majority of society (like the Greek case - almost every single trade union and the majority of its youth, who happen to be a majority) do bring change for the better, whether they fail or not - but riots organized by any minority with their own specific agendas, different than that of the general populace, are usually more harmful than good etc.. in both cases u will always get a group of people joining just for fun, idiocy, mob mentality or even other intentions like the Greek anarchist groups etc.
Savio and some others that might agree with you or have already, you arent that smart are you??
The truth behind WHO is doing these damages to shops etc ARE being done by the police!! YES thats right. We have videos played in my country in the news and in TV shows that try to humor with this shit goverment showing police men dressed as citizens holding bats etc doing damage to cars and shops and afterwards they are talking with the police men. The goverment wants US me and you to pay attention to all this destruction and chaos which is being manipulated by the goverment.
Why do you think no arrests has been made? Who are they going to arrest man? the same guy they gave orders to go tear down a shop? You think the shop damages arent going to get refunded and get back on track?? They will.
Yeah, I bet it's the police that's doing most of the breaking in Greece. I also bet the shops that are broken all have insurance. By doing so I think the Greece government aims to force the people to trust the government once more and tell it to stop the riots. If this happens, all the violence will disappear in 2-3 days.
On December 19 2008 21:07 hymn wrote: Yeah, I bet it's the police that's doing most of the breaking in Greece. I also bet the shops that are broken all have insurance. By doing so I think the Greece government aims to force the people to trust the government once more and tell it to stop the riots. If this happens, all the violence will disappear in 2-3 days.
Ya, and I bet that the people throwing molotav cocktails at the police are ALSO just police dressed up as citizens trying to make themselves look like victims by burning themselves.
And probably the people taking pictures are police dressed up as journalists too.
On December 17 2008 15:35 D10 wrote: look, for all americans, you have no idea how it is to have a police system that is completely corrupt, that makes your life worse, that doesnt protect you, by the contrary.
I really wish we here in Brazil were tenacious enough to do that kind of rioting, if theyr law enforcements is like ours, I praise them for what they are doing, nothing against the police officers, but honestly, sometimes the system needs to crash and reboot to run clean.
*headbangaa scrambles for his book of Jefferson quotes...*
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
EPT
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