Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 88

On April 12 2022 15:51 Broetchenholer wrote:


This is exactly the comment I am arguing against. Somehow Russia decades after Stalins death has a history of purging. Russia is exactly as much the Stalin regime as Germany is the third Reich or GB is the British empire and the US are still systemically racist, but they don't allow slavery anymore.

Putins war crimes stand on their own feet, they do not need Stalin or the Russian empire to work. I think it is undeniable that Putins army uses terror against civilians as a tool and I hope they will pay for it. They are not nazis though. They do not plan to murder 43 million Ukrainians, they are arguing that Ukraine never existed because those people are actually really Russians. Their propaganda is desperately trying to keep up with the blatant lies of their leadership while reality might bring a defeat and not a 5 day victory.

All of that does not justify or apologize for the crimes the invading army has committed but at the same time making Putin to Stalin 2.0 is not helpful either.

Finns are making a somber assessment of their eastern neighbor: 84% think that Russia poses a significant military threat after it attacked Ukraine on Feb. 24 and began waging a full-scale war.

That’s up 25 percentage points from a year earlier, according to a survey measuring attitudes in the second and third weeks of Russia’s invasion, published on Tuesday by Finnish Business and Policy Forum EVA. In 2005, fewer than one in three considered Russia a significant military threat.

The changed attitudes help explain why Finns almost overnight began backing entry to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, with the government seen leaning toward a membership application to the defense alliance within weeks.

The people in the Nordic country, which has a 1,300-kilometer (800-mile) border with Russia and a history of wars going back hundreds of years, think Russia is an expansionary dictatorship, according to the poll. They’re nearly unanimous in saying their neighbor is “unstable and unpredictable,” with just 2% saying they did not agree with that characterization of Russia in the poll.

Yet almost 60% of Finns said Russians are “pleasant people” and more than 70% said Russia has a rich culture. The poll conducted by Taloustutkimus Oy had 2,074 responses in the period March 4-15.

On April 12 2022 17:29 Ghanburighan wrote:


This is prime westsplaining. You take a random misunderstood part of the argument (RU22=Stalin), strawman that, and then provide your own definitive explanation of what's happening "Russia just wants to destroy Ukraine". The only problem being, it's divorced from historical and current reality. You can trace the behaviour of modern Russia to the aftermath of the Napoleonic wars. Their people, their leaders, and especially their diplomatic corps learned a modus operandi and follow it to this day. Of course, there are modifications, improvements, and more, but Russia 2022 didn't fall out fo the sky, it evolved into its current state. And when a country has Stalin in its history, and instead of repenting like DE or JP, it has spent the last two decades glorifying him, you can see why mentioning Stalin is relevant. What Stalin did is not abhorrent to Russians, it's to be valued and replicated.

Putin sees, and his successor will see, Russia as an empire. They appear to believe that they have been given a holy mission to make as much of the world Russian as possible. Whether that stops before they kill millions of Ukrainians or not, we don't know. But there is nothing in their rhetoric that says that they won't if they have to. And, their plan requires people from other nations to die as well. Moldovans, Georgians, perhaps the Finnish. Germany is almost certainly high on their list because of the part it played in WWII and the Cold War. They're salivating at the chance to declare Germany a nazi state and march on Berlin like in their Great Patriotic War.

Fortunately, by showing the atrocities of Russia, and the genocidal intent behind them, we can hopefully rally to stop them, again. And, this time, we hopefully don't give them a "get out of jail free card" because they have oil and gas, and instead force them to play by the same rules as all other countries. You either behave or you get isolated.

On April 12 2022 22:47 Broetchenholer wrote:


I disagree. And how is that "westsplaining", i am from eastern germany old enough to remember the GDR, i am as much part of the west as an average young person from Estonia is. You are talking about how Russia is so much defined by the opposition to the west and imperialism against the west and then manage to define yourself as being offended by an opinion held by a random person on the internet that happens to live in Germany.

If Russia is the only country where you believe that their current behaviour is entirely in line with every bad thing they did in the last 200 years, while everyone else evolved from their imperialistic times and is now freed from their history, maybe you should think about why this one nation is so differently perceived by you. Russia is not a nazi state and had they won their war in 5 days, they would not have started to murder civilians. Because their goal was not to murder all Ukrainians, their goal was to puppet the country and generate as much wealth as possible for them to steal while looking like they care for this Russian Empire you seem to be fixated about. They are clearly willing to use terror as a tool, as such, the russian army right now and for the last 2 decades are definately war criminals and monsters. That does not mean them commiting war crimes is inevitable because they are russian, or that the next step can only be genocide of Ukraine or an invasion of germany.

On April 12 2022 23:47 TheTenthDoc wrote:


I'm not so sure this is an accurate sentiment. They detained, tortured, and disappeared plenty of Crimean civilians post-annexation. Unless you are not counting targeted eradication of anyone expressing anti-Russian sentiment as murdering civilians. I guess it wouldn't be uniformed soldiers doing it, though.

On April 13 2022 00:24 Manit0u wrote:
You also have to consider the fact that if you for example make a YouTube video where you're saying anything not in line with Russian government statements or anything against or criticizing the "special operation" you're facing 15 years in prison. That is a pretty clear indication of a fascist regime.

And before people start calling me out for pointing out that Russia is in fact a fascist state, let's just check the quick checklist of 14 defining characteristics of fascism:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - check
2. Disregard for Human Rights - check
3. Identification of Enemies as a Unifying Cause - check
4. Supremacy of the Military - maybe?
5. Widespread Sexism - check
6. Controlled Mass Media - check
7. Obsession with National Security - check
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - maybe?
9. Corporate Power is Protected - check (oligarchs in this case)
10. Labor Power is Suppressed - check
11. Disrespect for Intellectuals and the Arts - maybe?
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - check
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - check
14. Fraudulent Elections - check

That's a lot of ticked boxes right there. Pretty clear indicators of a totalitarian fascist state in my opinion.

On April 13 2022 00:36 Gorsameth wrote:
There is also the difference that Crimea has the largest Russian population in Ukraine at ~70%, so if you want to kill non-Russians Crimea is not the region to commit mass murder in.

German president Steinmeier's visit to Kyiv 'not wanted'

German President Frank-Walter Steinmeier, who's currently in Warsaw, said a trip to Ukraine suggested by his Polish counterpart "wasn't wanted" by Kyiv. He has been criticized for his closeness to Russia.

Kyiv rejected the proposed trip by German President Frank-Walter Steinmeier, he said on Tuesday while visiting Warsaw.

Steinmeier had been planning to make a joint visit to Ukraine with Polish President Andrzej Duda and their Estonian, Lithuanian and Latvian counterparts "a strong signal of joint European solidarity with Ukraine."

But "that apparently wasn't wanted in Kyiv" Steinmeier said.

Ukraine has previously been highly critical of the German president over his connections with Russia and the leading role he played as former foreign minister in improving relations with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

https://m.dw.com/en/german-president-steinmeiers-visit-to-kyiv-not-wanted/a-61447160

On April 13 2022 01:54 Sent. wrote:
Zelensky straight up refused to see the German president.



Not sure it's a good time to act like that. People tend to be more willing to give you their money when you're nice to them.

On April 13 2022 01:59 Artesimo wrote:



I think its good. While a lot of the ukrainian criticism towards germany has felt a bit harsh and unfair, it did believe it helped in swaying public opinion. Politicians had to do something to save face, even if ukrainian demands where impossible to fulfil. Like with ukraine calling for a no fly zone, surely they knew it would be impossible since it would mean war with russia, but it might have helped getting other things to make up for it.

Our increased military spending is already getting back-pedalled in part, so a bit of heat seems needed.

On April 13 2022 04:02 Gorsameth wrote:
Russia attacking Finland is not a credible threat. Aside from not being able to fight Ukraine, let alone a war on 2 fronts they would also risk the EU directly getting involved as Finland is part of the EU mutual defence treaty, And if the EU gets involved NATO is a small step away.

On April 12 2022 05:28 Ghanburighan wrote:


You misunderstood the logic. You clear your books in the sense that you create space in your own budget. Then you can use that budget space for a new order.

And you need to be quick about placing orders, because a lot of countries are currently negotiating or starting to negotiate new orders.

For countries like Estonia which are more nimble and don't generally use heavy machinery, it was much quicker and they have already placed orders in the size of about 0.2% GDP. For larger countries, I would be very surprised if they have even properly initiated the process yet.

Edit: I'd like to emphasize that I don't know whether this is why CZ did this. That's speculation on my part. I'd be perfectly happy in the knowledge that they just want to help UA defeat RU.


P.S. Any comparison to Hitler always derails a discussion. That, and the very real historical suffering of people is why it's better to leave these comparisons to historians and focus on the atrocities at hand.

On April 13 2022 00:24 Manit0u wrote:
You also have to consider the fact that if you for example make a YouTube video where you're saying anything not in line with Russian government statements or anything against or criticizing the "special operation" you're facing 15 years in prison. That is a pretty clear indication of a fascist regime.

And before people start calling me out for pointing out that Russia is in fact a fascist state, let's just check the quick checklist of 14 defining characteristics of fascism:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - check
2. Disregard for Human Rights - check
3. Identification of Enemies as a Unifying Cause - check
4. Supremacy of the Military - maybe?
5. Widespread Sexism - check
6. Controlled Mass Media - check
7. Obsession with National Security - check
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - maybe?
9. Corporate Power is Protected - check (oligarchs in this case)
10. Labor Power is Suppressed - check
11. Disrespect for Intellectuals and the Arts - maybe?
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - check
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - check
14. Fraudulent Elections - check

That's a lot of ticked boxes right there. Pretty clear indicators of a totalitarian fascist state in my opinion.

On April 13 2022 02:28 mahrgell wrote:


I don't think this will create any goodwill or sympathy though. It is one thing to have your ambassador run from talk show to talk show and demand the delivery of German submarines, so maybe Berlin gets their heads out of their asses and at least delivers something more than a few helmets.
It is a completely different thing to pointlessly agitate the head of state, who is probably the most liked president for the past decades and a former party member of the current ruling party. What is there to gain?