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On April 12 2022 03:31 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2022 23:21 Acrofales wrote:On April 10 2022 21:24 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On April 10 2022 09:08 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 10 2022 03:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:The Czech Republic is Ukraine everything but the kitchen sink it seems. Ukraine has repeatedly called on the West to urgently supply more weapons, especially heavy equipment, as Russian forces regroup in the country’s east for new offensive after withdrawing from the capital Kyiv and other regions.
NATO members are providing a wide range of weapon systems to the country, NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg said on Thursday.
The Czech Republic has spare equipment that Ukrainian forces are familiar with in storage as well as a defense industry focused on upgrades and trade in such weapons. It has been among the most active EU nations in backing Ukraine.
Defense sources confirmed a shipment of five T-72 tanks and five BVP-1, or BMP-1, infantry fighting vehicles seen on rail cars in photographs on Twitter and video footage this week, but those were not the first shipments of heavy equipment.
“For several weeks, we have been supplying heavy ground equipment – I am saying it generally but by definition it is clear that this includes tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, howitzers, and multiple rocket launchers,” a senior defense official said.
The sources declined to discuss numbers of weapons supplied.
The senior defense official said the Czechs were also supplying a range of anti-aircraft weaponry.
Independent defense analyst Lukas Visingr said short-range air-defense systems Strela-10, or SA-13 Gopher in NATO terminology, have been spotted on a train apparently bound for Ukraine, in line with a report in Czech weekly respekt.cz.
The Czech program to ship weapons includes money raised by public fundraising by the Ukrainian embassy, which has raised $37.45 million, according to the embassy website. Source There is some speculation that this could have some ulterior motives. If they give away all of their upgraded Soviet equipment to Ukraine that will give them room to ask for more modern equipment from the US, France, Britain and Germany. Think they can rule out getting extra weapons from Germany. They're beefing up their own military at a scale not seen since.... well you get the idea. It's a good day to be a weapons manufacturer that's for sure. Czech Republic doesn't have any problems buying more modern equipment from US, France, Britain and Germany, apart from budgetary constraints. It's not like any of these countries will look at Czech Republic, judge that their military has enough equipment and refuse to sell their technology and eqiupment to them on the basis that otherwise Czech Republic will have too much equipment. No country cares how much equipment another country already have if that country is a prospective customer of their systems. That's not how arms procurement between nations work. Pretty sure he wasn't implying people wouldn't sell them weapons, but rather that the cost of buying new stuff is prohibitively expensive if the old stuff you have works well enough. If you strike a deal where you give your old stuff to someone else, in exchange for a discount on new stuff, then suddenly you can afford it! Especially as you don't have to pay for the maintenance or decommissioning of the old stuff anymore either! Perhaps that is what he meant and that does follow a logical line of thought. Howveer, there is no ulterior motive of hoping to get new equipment for cheaper as Czech Republic will not be getting any new equipment for cheaper. The root problem pf procurement remains the same; Czech Republic procurement of military equipment is entirely budgetary. Giving away equipment doesn't actually ease that problem. It's always better to sell of, or run till it is not worthwhile, which for land vehicles can be a very long time indeed. They already given away the equipment, Who then is now giving discounts on new equipment to Czech Republic? Certainly not any of those supplying countries and if they do, it wouldn't be for that reason alone.
There's about to be a massive crunch in weapon procurement in NATO. Countries are already racing to get orders in, because a lot of military capability takes years to produce, and it's very hard to ramp up production for a number of reasons. So it's probably not about cost, it's about getting good use out of your old stuff (UA is diminishing CZ enemies as well with them), and clearing books for new stuff so you can order quicker.
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If that was true, then all countries in East Europe would just be dumping their old vehicles so they can order foreign equipment quicker. All countries in the world that buy foreign military eqiupment would be doing so too. That though, is not what is occuring. Could it be their governments are all less clever that Czechia who have solely figured this out?
Ordering a new tank is nothing like ordering a newly released car/graphics card/phone. You don't get on a waiting list. Military procurement is a country to country agreement and dumping your old vehicles does not get you to the "order book" any faster than if you did not. It's safe to say that Czechia is fine with making themselves have a weaker military in order to boost the capability of Ukraine and diminish the capability of Russia. That seems to very much be the ulterior motive here. No need for conspirical, aren't Czechs clever, theories.
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On April 12 2022 02:42 Yurie wrote:Depends on if you think the different scale is due to motivation or lack of capacity on Russian side. At least that makes a difference in how I interpret that.
On April 12 2022 02:47 maybenexttime wrote:It's not like Nazi Germany started building death camps from get-go. Russia has been steadily ramping up the atrocities committed by its troops.
I'll admit that this one word answer is reductive.
And it's clearly genocide. But it's like nowhere near Nazi Germany levels. Yet.
I hope I still think the comparison is invalid in two weeks.
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Meanwhile Kharkiv city shelling is getting more intense and chaotic during last two days
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On April 12 2022 02:49 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2022 02:47 maybenexttime wrote:On April 12 2022 02:40 Artisreal wrote:
Scale. It's not like Nazi Germany started building death camps from get-go. Russia has been steadily ramping up the atrocities committed by its troops. Exactly. Auschwitz was built in 1940, the extermination camp only started building in 1941, 2 years after the beginning of WW2.
There is a key difference: nazi germanies position on jews was always 'they have to go'. It was not 'we have to get rid of jewish culture', it was 'we have to get rid of all jews - the people'. It wasn't always murder them, at some point this idea was to ship them all off to some island, but ultimately that plan was aborted. Key is, there was never any kind of coexistence. The difference is not just in scale, the scale was a result of how it was targeted at the people, rather than their culture or identity. Even with the plan to banish them to some island, the motivation was always to get rid of all of them, no coexistence.
What we are seeing from russia atm is different. In my opinion, at most, we have evidence for 'we have to get rid of ukrainian culture'. Russia's plan might be to eradicate ukrainian culture and identity so they become just russians - which does fall under genocide, and is a terrible and inexcusable thing. If that is truly their intention, then it probably also involves the killing of some ukrainians for it and in no way I want to downplay this. I also don't want to downplay russia unleashing a war on ukraine, or any that comes with that, like the death of civilians.
But I think it is still important to note that this is a different category of atrocities than what nazi germany has been doing, both for the sake of perspective as well as the in my opinion very unlikely possibility that russia escalates it up to the point of nazi germany tier genocide. I think the way to mentally accept this is realising that it does not have to mean its 'better' (since its a lesser evil), but rather that it is just a different kind of evil, but that the distinction matters.
Why does it matter? I think the difference in goal is important to keep in mind, as well as understanding the different characteristics.
Another reason why it matters is, I rather throw out accusations that I can easily justify and defend, rather than things that might be harder to defend or I would end up having to drop completely.
Just like Artisreal, I hope I won't have to eat my own words on this later down the line.
I also understand that our eastern european TL folks have a different perspective here. Some of them are from countries that have experienced genocide under the soviet union, some of it was very much the nazi kind of genocide. A lot of people equate russia to the soviet union, so to them this probably seems like evidence that the mask if finally slipping off.
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On April 12 2022 04:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
If that was true, then all countries in East Europe would just be dumping their old vehicles so they can order foreign equipment quicker. All countries in the world that buy foreign military eqiupment would be doing so too. That though, is not what is occuring. Could it be their governments are all less clever that Czechia who have solely figured this out?
Ordering a new tank is nothing like ordering a newly released car/graphics card/phone. You don't get on a waiting list. Military procurement is a country to country agreement and dumping your old vehicles does not get you to the "order book" any faster than if you did not. It's safe to say that Czechia is fine with making themselves have a weaker military in order to boost the capability of Ukraine and diminish the capability of Russia. That seems to very much be the ulterior motive here. No need for conspirical, aren't Czechs clever, theories.
You misunderstood the logic. You clear your books in the sense that you create space in your own budget. Then you can use that budget space for a new order.
And you need to be quick about placing orders, because a lot of countries are currently negotiating or starting to negotiate new orders.
For countries like Estonia which are more nimble and don't generally use heavy machinery, it was much quicker and they have already placed orders in the size of about 0.2% GDP. For larger countries, I would be very surprised if they have even properly initiated the process yet.
Edit: I'd like to emphasize that I don't know whether this is why CZ did this. That's speculation on my part. I'd be perfectly happy in the knowledge that they just want to help UA defeat RU.
P.S. Any comparison to Hitler always derails a discussion. That, and the very real historical suffering of people is why it's better to leave these comparisons to historians and focus on the atrocities at hand.
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This is bugging me reading the thread as well. It's obvious, that the Russian Army is committing atrocities against civilians and seems to be doing so as part of a plan to terrorize the opposition. However, the number of people immediately linking this to WW2 and russian soldiers are animals and have always been animals is concerning. Every invading army has committed atrocities, has targeted civilians or has not giving any fucks whether civilians have been killed (cough, drones). The French soldiers fighting back the german troops in germany have raped quite a few women in southern germany.
I have read all the recent developments in shock, i do condemn all of it, but i think it is very unfair to categorize the Russian Army as a bloodhungry cabal of Nazi rapists. Most of those guys are as in most countries poor people with no political agenda that have been put into an impossible position when they learned that they would be sent into an "exercise" in Ukraine. They need to be fought back. Those that aim missiles at train stations and shoot civilans on bikes need to be dealt with according to international war. None of the people committing these atrocities now were soldiers during the time of soviet cruelties against their own conquered satellities or during WW2.
Also, fuck Putin.
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On April 12 2022 05:43 Broetchenholer wrote:
This is bugging me reading the thread as well. It's obvious, that the Russian Army is committing atrocities against civilians and seems to be doing so as part of a plan to terrorize the opposition. However, the number of people immediately linking this to WW2 and russian soldiers are animals and have always been animals is concerning. Every invading army has committed atrocities, has targeted civilians or has not giving any fucks whether civilians have been killed (cough, drones). The French soldiers fighting back the german troops in germany have raped quite a few women in southern germany.
I have read all the recent developments in shock, i do condemn all of it, but i think it is very unfair to categorize the Russian Army as a bloodhungry cabal of Nazi rapists. Most of those guys are as in most countries poor people with no political agenda that have been put into an impossible position when they learned that they would be sent into an "exercise" in Ukraine. They need to be fought back. Those that aim missiles at train stations and shoot civilans on bikes need to be dealt with according to international war. None of the people committing these atrocities now were soldiers during the time of soviet cruelties against their own conquered satellities or during WW2.
Also, fuck Putin.
The big problem is that there are basically only three ways of holding soldiers of another nation responsible for the crimes they commited in the war.
1) Capture them and put them on Trial
2) Win the war so hard that you can hold trials on the other sides soldiers
3) The country whose soldiers it are is itself interested in charging its own war criminals.
Very few countries fall in category 3. Russia definitively doesn't.
But yeah, i guess it is reasonable to divorce the war crimes they are currently committing from war crimes which were committed in the past by other people.
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On April 12 2022 05:48 Simberto wrote:
The big problem is that there are basically only three ways of holding soldiers of another nation responsible for the crimes they commited in the war.
1) Capture them and put them on Trial
2) Win the war so hard that you can hold trials on the other sides soldiers
3) The country whose soldiers it are is itself interested in charging its own war criminals.
Very few countries fall in category 3. Russia definitively doesn't.
Yeah, that is something that has been eating away at me to the point where I almost get triggered by the very strong rhetoric that is used by politicians when talking about the atrocities that come out of the war in ukraine. The best hope we have for anyone getting brought to justice is if they end up captured by ukraine, and russia ends up in a position where they can't pressure/force ukraine into giving them up... It makes me extremely cynical and bitter whenever I see some proclamation that the war crimes committed in ukraine will be prosecuted and people brought to justice. I immediately have a voice in my head saying "no they won't".
What frustrates me even more, if it came out that part or even all of the killings of civilians for example, where ordered from high up, the chance of seeing people prosecuted for this is even lower.
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On April 12 2022 04:31 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2022 02:42 Yurie wrote:On April 12 2022 02:40 Artisreal wrote:
Scale. Depends on if you think the different scale is due to motivation or lack of capacity on Russian side. At least that makes a difference in how I interpret that. Show nested quote +On April 12 2022 02:47 maybenexttime wrote:On April 12 2022 02:40 Artisreal wrote:
Scale. It's not like Nazi Germany started building death camps from get-go. Russia has been steadily ramping up the atrocities committed by its troops. I'll admit that this one word answer is reductive. And it's clearly genocide. But it's like nowhere near Nazi Germany levels. Yet. I hope I still think the comparison is invalid in two weeks.
I think people may be talking about different things when comparing modern Russia to Nazi Germany. Personally, I meant the trajectory they're on, not necessarily "peak" Nazi Germany.
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On April 12 2022 06:09 Artesimo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2022 05:48 Simberto wrote:
The big problem is that there are basically only three ways of holding soldiers of another nation responsible for the crimes they commited in the war.
1) Capture them and put them on Trial
2) Win the war so hard that you can hold trials on the other sides soldiers
3) The country whose soldiers it are is itself interested in charging its own war criminals.
Very few countries fall in category 3. Russia definitively doesn't.
Yeah, that is something that has been eating away at me to the point where I almost get triggered by the very strong rhetoric that is used by politicians when talking about the atrocities that come out of the war in ukraine. The best hope we have for anyone getting brought to justice is if they end up captured by ukraine, and russia ends up in a position where they can't pressure/force ukraine into giving them up... It makes me extremely cynical and bitter whenever I see some proclamation that the war crimes committed in ukraine will be prosecuted and people brought to justice. I immediately have a voice in my head saying "no they won't". What frustrates me even more, if it came out that part or even all of the killings of civilians for example, where ordered from high up, the chance of seeing people prosecuted for this is even lower. Yep. I practically rolled my eyes when Biden publicly talked about how Putin is a war criminal and needs to be prosecuted, not because he's wrong but because there is a snowballs chance in hell of that happening. None of the people responsible for the atrocities in Ukraine are going to face justice, and everyone knows it but pretends not to for the sake of showing they 'care'.
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On April 12 2022 05:43 Broetchenholer wrote:
This is bugging me reading the thread as well. It's obvious, that the Russian Army is committing atrocities against civilians and seems to be doing so as part of a plan to terrorize the opposition. However, the number of people immediately linking this to WW2 and russian soldiers are animals and have always been animals is concerning. Every invading army has committed atrocities, has targeted civilians or has not giving any fucks whether civilians have been killed (cough, drones). The French soldiers fighting back the german troops in germany have raped quite a few women in southern germany.
I have read all the recent developments in shock, i do condemn all of it, but i think it is very unfair to categorize the Russian Army as a bloodhungry cabal of Nazi rapists. Most of those guys are as in most countries poor people with no political agenda that have been put into an impossible position when they learned that they would be sent into an "exercise" in Ukraine. They need to be fought back. Those that aim missiles at train stations and shoot civilans on bikes need to be dealt with according to international war. None of the people committing these atrocities now were soldiers during the time of soviet cruelties against their own conquered satellities or during WW2.
Also, fuck Putin.
Have you read any of the articles I have linked? Russian propaganda is openly advocating genocide. Extinguishing Ukrainians as a nation and killing anyone who tries to oppose this. We're not talking about some hypothetical motives based on this or that massacre, we're talking about their official propaganda. In their public discourse, they have been dehumanizing Ukrainians for years.
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I'm sorry, but assuming that these atrocities are just soldiers acting independently is false. There are way too many reports like the following which suggest that orders came from superiors to execute prisoners:
Here's the Human Rights Watch providing a long list of interviews (warning, harrowing details).
And Russian state media (not media like in the West, fully controlled by the Kremlin) has been pushing for genocide in Ukraine:
I understand that it's difficult for people who do not understand Russian to see how bad things have gotten over there, it's easier to try to see the best in people, but what's happening now is going to be one of the great tragedies of the century.
Another telling aspect is the use of mobile crematoriums. Everyone assumed that they were going to be used for hiding Russian casualty numbers. But we've seen no evidence of this happening. It seems to be regular Cargo 200 being shipped back to Russia. Instead, now we have reports such as this one stating that they're using these crematoriums to destroy the bodies of killed Ukrainian civilians. As these mobile crematoriums were sent before the invasion began, killing civilians was premeditated.
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The Russian parliament (?) also passed an updated standard on how to make mass graves shortly before the invasion...
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UK Response to an apparent chemical attack in Ukraine.
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On April 12 2022 07:25 Ghanburighan wrote:
I'm sorry, but assuming that these atrocities are just soldiers acting independently is false. There are way too many reports like the following which suggest that orders came from superiors to execute prisoners.
I believe the orders came from above too. It's too wide-spread and methodical for it to be like one rogue battalion doing it or something like that.
Another thing to keep in mind is that Russia has a history of class and ethnic purging (Stalin's government killed way more people than Nazis).
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People should also keep in mind that for the defense industry wars like this one is the greatest advertising any of them can get. The owner of the company that makes the BA-2's is the son in law of the president of the country. Checkia doing everything but give away their equipment is opening the door for a lot of purchases of its upgrade packages to the soviet equipment that they sell by nations that don't want to do business with Russia anymore but still want cheap upgrades instead of brand new units from china or the us. They're deploying switchblades now, loitering kamakazi drones.
MANPADS are going to have orders out for a decade. Its a lot easier to scale up production of MANPADS than any armored vehicle and are a lot cheaper than budgeting out having to maintain and fuel armored vehicles. The world should have learned from the Chechen wars that you can just volley the things against tanks if they get old but that they're always going to be a cost effective response to vehicles.
It looks like they're going to try to push to dnipro and declare victory before may 6th. Putin will want that timeline for his WW2 parade and also their logistics network won't survive much longer than that.
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Zurich15313 Posts
Edit never mind don't want to further derail
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On April 12 2022 08:11 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2022 07:25 Ghanburighan wrote:
I'm sorry, but assuming that these atrocities are just soldiers acting independently is false. There are way too many reports like the following which suggest that orders came from superiors to execute prisoners.
I believe the orders came from above too. It's too wide-spread and methodical for it to be like one rogue battalion doing it or something like that. Another thing to keep in mind is that Russia has a history of class and ethnic purging (Stalin's government killed way more people than Nazis).
This is exactly the comment I am arguing against. Somehow Russia decades after Stalins death has a history of purging. Russia is exactly as much the Stalin regime as Germany is the third Reich or GB is the British empire and the US are still systemically racist, but they don't allow slavery anymore.
Putins war crimes stand on their own feet, they do not need Stalin or the Russian empire to work. I think it is undeniable that Putins army uses terror against civilians as a tool and I hope they will pay for it. They are not nazis though. They do not plan to murder 43 million Ukrainians, they are arguing that Ukraine never existed because those people are actually really Russians. Their propaganda is desperately trying to keep up with the blatant lies of their leadership while reality might bring a defeat and not a 5 day victory.
All of that does not justify or apologize for the crimes the invading army has committed but at the same time making Putin to Stalin 2.0 is not helpful either.
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EPT
