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Th EU is preparing further sanctions as the massacre becomes more widely spread, also apparently today is election day in Hungary. Should be interesting to see how images of Bucha could play in domestic political life of another country.
Europe will impose further sanctions on Russia and bolster its support to Ukraine after reports of the massacre and rape of civilians in towns regained from Russian troops.
As Russia concentrated its offensive on the east and south of the country, Ukrainian forces reclaiming villages and towns around Kyiv claimed numerous apparent human rights atrocities. Among their discoveries were dead women left naked in the street and, according to the Ukrainian defense ministry, raped.
“Russian soldiers did terrible things here,” said First Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine Emine Dzhaparova, as she shared an image of victims in the village of Motyzhyn discovered face down with their hands tied, and shot in the back of the head. In the town of Bucha, Russians killed civilians during their occupation as well as during their retreat, Dzhaparova added in a statement.
On Sunday, Charles Michel, president of the European Council, said he was “shocked by haunting images of atrocities committed by [the] Russian army.”
“Further EU sanctions & support are on their way,” he tweeted.
Poland and the Baltics had on Friday already thrashed out a new set of measures designed to cripple the Russian regime. EU leaders are divided on the reach of further punitive measures, however, especially concerning Russian energy supplies.
But in a sign that further measures could come swiftly, Germany’s Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock also tweeted: “We will tighten sanctions against Russia and support #Ukraine even more in its defence.” She said that “those responsible for war crimes must be held accountable.”
An EU official told POLITICO that EU countries have agreed to prepare — and possibly speed through and tighten – the next phase of sanctions, while German Finance Minister Christian Lindner confirmed talks would start Monday.
France’s Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said in a statement that the strongest possible economic and international pressure must be “maintained and reinforced” on Russia to compel the country to end its war on Ukraine.
NGO Human Rights Watch interviewed 10 citizens from Ukraine who witnessed atrocities, including summary executions in Bucha, about 30 kilometers northwest of Kyiv, and in the village of Staryi Bykiv, in the Chernihiv region. The advocacy group provided a detailed account of its interviews.
“The cases we documented amount to unspeakable, deliberate cruelty and violence against Ukrainian civilians,” said Hugh Williamson, Europe and Central Asia director at HRW. “Rape, murder, and other violent acts against people in the Russian forces’ custody should be investigated as war crimes,” he said.
Outlining a string of further cases, Lyudmyla Denisova, Ukrainian commissioner for human rights, appealed for the international community to investigate, through the United Nations and the Organization for the Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE).
European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen said she was “appalled by reports of unspeakable horrors in areas from which Russia is withdrawing,” and said an independent investigation is urgently needed. “Perpetrators of war crimes will be held accountable,” she tweeted.
Estonian Prime Minister Kaja Kallas tweeted that the photos “recall the mass killings by Soviet and Nazi regimes.” “This is not a battlefield, it’s a crime scene,” she added. “Evidence must be gathered, saved for trials, and perpetrators must face justice.”
Reports of this nature are increasing as Ukrainians regain villages and towns surrounding the capital. President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has meanwhile warned of Russia’s offensives in the east and south of the country. Those included renewed bombardment overnight of the ancient and strategic port city of Odesa in the southwest, according to AFP. Moscow announced on Tuesday that it would shift its focus away from Kyiv to the eastern Donbas region.
In a plea to the West to increase its efforts to help the country, Zelenskyy said in a speech on Sunday: “Unfortunately, Ukraine has not yet received enough modern Western anti-missile systems or aircrafts. Hasn’t received what the partners could provide. Could — and still can.”
European leaders have approved four rounds of sanctions on Russia in response to its invasion of Ukraine, but remain divided on imposing an energy embargo on Moscow and have rejected Kyiv’s calls for a no-fly zone.
“Every Russian missile and every bomb dropped only adds black paint to the history that will describe everyone on whom the decision depended. [The decision of] whether to help Ukraine with modern weapons,” Zelenskyy added.
As Hungarians go to the polls Sunday, the Ukrainian president called out Hungarian Prime Minister of Viktor Orbán for being “virtually the only one in Europe to openly support Mr. Putin.” Unlike the rest of Europe, in Hungary, “we saw no effort to stop the war. Why so?” he asked.
In contrast, he said he had had a “meaningful” conversation with British Prime Minister Boris Johnson, during which the pair agreed a new package of “very, very tangible support,” including strengthening of sanctions against Russia. “Thank you, Boris for the leadership. Historical leadership. I’m sure of it.”
Visiting Kyiv on Friday, European Parliament President Roberta Metsola pledged to ramp up assistance to Ukraine and discussed “further-reaching” sanctions on Russia. “We have already provided financial, military and humanitarian assistance — this will continue and it will increase,” she said.
I just came across this news source, run by independent Ukrainian journalists. It will obviously be patriotic, but more "hands on" then most other outlets: https://kyivindependent.com
I am honestly curious to see if said leaders respond. Especially Merkel whose legacy seems to be slowly sinking. Heck Politico, a couple of days ago, essentially called her a Russian asset.
Slowly but surely, it’s begun to dawn on Germans that Merkel’s soft-shoe approach to Russia — which reached its zenith with the 2015 decision to green light the Nord Stream 2 pipeline despite Russia’s annexation of Crimea and its role in the separatist war in eastern Ukraine — didn’t just open the door for Putin to go further, it effectively encouraged him to do so.
On April 03 2022 13:44 JimmiC wrote: If that is confirmed, it is not 12 century. It be time to stop the pretense of were not fighting Russia and just launch a real serious air strike on them from like 4-10 country at the same time as a big, this is not acceptable war practice and there will serious fucking consequences.
Unfortunately, we are not so evolved morally that this is a 12 Century thing. The Russian army (again) rolling up the Eastern Front at the end of the WWII committed mass rape against ethnic Germans across eastern Europe. Shortly before Solzhenitsyn was arrested he was in the process of writing a poem (or narrative verse?) critiquing this:
It’s not been burned, just looted, rifled. A moaning, by the walls half muffled: The mother’s wounded, still alive. The little daughter's on the mattress, Dead. How many have been on it A platoon, a company perhaps? A girl's been turned into a woman, A woman turned into a corpse. It's all come down to simple phrases: Do not forget! Do not forgive! Blood for blood! A tooth for a tooth! The mother begs, “Tote mich, Soldat!” Her eyes are hazy and bloodshot. The dark’s upon her. She can’t see.
Hideous. And if this latest is true, this time they cannot even use the flimsy excuse of Blood for blood.
Making Russia economically dependent on Western Europe was smart, peace through economic interdependencies is how we’ve secured peace in western and Central Europe for 70 years. Russia would have to be insane to allow itself to become dependent on Western Europe and then act so far outside the acceptable parameters of the arrangement.
Being a self sufficient nuclear rogue state is fine if that’s what you’re into. NK could get away with invading Ukraine without real consequences. Being a member of the global community and prospering, also fine. But it’s a really bad idea to try to be a rogue state and be dependent.
We’re much better off having engaged Russia. If Putin wanted to get away with this shit he never should have taken German money. They’d have been able to protect their legacy Soviet era native industries from foreign competition and could pariah to their heart’s content. But German money gets you German goods and services displacing your own industry. Merkel’s legacy may be a Russia that fucks around but it is also one that finds out.
On April 04 2022 07:17 KwarK wrote: Making Russia economically dependent on Western Europe was smart, peace through economic interdependencies is how we’ve secured peace in western and Central Europe for 70 years. Russia would have to be insane to allow itself to become dependent on Western Europe and then act so far outside the acceptable parameters of the arrangement.
Being a self sufficient nuclear rogue state is fine if that’s what you’re into. NK could get away with invading Ukraine without real consequences. Being a member of the global community and prospering, also fine. But it’s a really bad idea to try to be a rogue state and be dependent.
We’re much better off having engaged Russia. If Putin wanted to get away with this shit he never should have taken German money. They’d have been able to protect their legacy Soviet era native industries from foreign competition and could pariah to their heart’s content. But German money gets you German goods and services displacing your own industry. Merkel’s legacy may be a Russia that fucks around but it is also one that finds out.
On April 04 2022 07:17 KwarK wrote: Making Russia economically dependent on Western Europe was smart, peace through economic interdependencies is how we’ve secured peace in western and Central Europe for 70 years. Russia would have to be insane to allow itself to become dependent on Western Europe and then act so far outside the acceptable parameters of the arrangement.
Being a self sufficient nuclear rogue state is fine if that’s what you’re into. NK could get away with invading Ukraine without real consequences. Being a member of the global community and prospering, also fine. But it’s a really bad idea to try to be a rogue state and be dependent.
We’re much better off having engaged Russia. If Putin wanted to get away with this shit he never should have taken German money. They’d have been able to protect their legacy Soviet era native industries from foreign competition and could pariah to their heart’s content. But German money gets you German goods and services displacing your own industry. Merkel’s legacy may be a Russia that fucks around but it is also one that finds out.
What peace?
? France and Germany have finally stopped fighting.
On April 04 2022 07:17 KwarK wrote: Making Russia economically dependent on Western Europe was smart, peace through economic interdependencies is how we’ve secured peace in western and Central Europe for 70 years. Russia would have to be insane to allow itself to become dependent on Western Europe and then act so far outside the acceptable parameters of the arrangement.
Being a self sufficient nuclear rogue state is fine if that’s what you’re into. NK could get away with invading Ukraine without real consequences. Being a member of the global community and prospering, also fine. But it’s a really bad idea to try to be a rogue state and be dependent.
We’re much better off having engaged Russia. If Putin wanted to get away with this shit he never should have taken German money. They’d have been able to protect their legacy Soviet era native industries from foreign competition and could pariah to their heart’s content. But German money gets you German goods and services displacing your own industry. Merkel’s legacy may be a Russia that fucks around but it is also one that finds out.
What peace?
How many wars do you count between central European countries since WWII? Not talking about the balkans.
Ukrainian military claims that Russia is now mobilising reserves. Some 60k reservists with previous combat experience. That would definitely signal Russia's willingness to 1) stop pretending that there is no war and 2) reinforce the existing positions, probably in Crimea and the 'people's republics' rather than withdraw further.
On April 03 2022 13:44 JimmiC wrote: If that is confirmed, it is not 12 century. It be time to stop the pretense of were not fighting Russia and just launch a real serious air strike on them from like 4-10 country at the same time as a big, this is not acceptable war practice and there will serious fucking consequences.
Unfortunately, we are not so evolved morally that this is a 12 Century thing. The Russian army (again) rolling up the Eastern Front at the end of the WWII committed mass rape against ethnic Germans across eastern Europe.
Not just Germans... rapes and lootings were common place wherever Red Army marched. My late Grandma (born in todays western Ukraine) refered to Russian soldiers as "Beasts".
On April 04 2022 06:24 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: I am honestly curious to see if said leaders respond. Especially Merkel whose legacy seems to be slowly sinking. Heck Politico, a couple of days ago, essentially called her a Russian asset.
Slowly but surely, it’s begun to dawn on Germans that Merkel’s soft-shoe approach to Russia — which reached its zenith with the 2015 decision to green light the Nord Stream 2 pipeline despite Russia’s annexation of Crimea and its role in the separatist war in eastern Ukraine — didn’t just open the door for Putin to go further, it effectively encouraged him to do so.
Why would she? Engaging Russia economically in the greater European market was to ensure safety and peace. I don't think anybody saw this coming 7 years ago that Putin would go full lunatic. Heck most people didn't see this coming 8 weeks ago.
EDIT: If not for Merkel, Putin would have maybe gone allin back in 2015 already. Who knows
On April 03 2022 13:44 JimmiC wrote: If that is confirmed, it is not 12 century. It be time to stop the pretense of were not fighting Russia and just launch a real serious air strike on them from like 4-10 country at the same time as a big, this is not acceptable war practice and there will serious fucking consequences.
Unfortunately, we are not so evolved morally that this is a 12 Century thing. The Russian army (again) rolling up the Eastern Front at the end of the WWII committed mass rape against ethnic Germans across eastern Europe.
Not just Germans... rapes and lootings were common place wherever Red Army marched. My late Grandma (born in todays western Ukraine) refered to Russian soldiers as "Beasts".
My Polish grandmother in law, having lived through ww2 and the cold war, had some saying akin to 'I'd rather kiss a German in the ass than a Russian on the cheek'.
On April 03 2022 13:44 JimmiC wrote: If that is confirmed, it is not 12 century. It be time to stop the pretense of were not fighting Russia and just launch a real serious air strike on them from like 4-10 country at the same time as a big, this is not acceptable war practice and there will serious fucking consequences.
Unfortunately, we are not so evolved morally that this is a 12 Century thing. The Russian army (again) rolling up the Eastern Front at the end of the WWII committed mass rape against ethnic Germans across eastern Europe.
Not just Germans... rapes and lootings were common place wherever Red Army marched. My late Grandma (born in todays western Ukraine) refered to Russian soldiers as "Beasts".
My Polish grandmother in law, having lived through ww2 and the cold war, had some saying akin to 'I'd rather kiss a German in the ass than a Russian on the cheek'.
My grandma who also lived through WW2 said similar things. She survived both German and Russian occupation and she said that Russians were horrible people.
I guess that's what you get when vast majority of your troops aren't really professional, mostly people who couldn't avoid being drafted, uneducated, quite often coming from the fringes of society, borderline criminals etc.
On April 03 2022 13:44 JimmiC wrote: If that is confirmed, it is not 12 century. It be time to stop the pretense of were not fighting Russia and just launch a real serious air strike on them from like 4-10 country at the same time as a big, this is not acceptable war practice and there will serious fucking consequences.
Unfortunately, we are not so evolved morally that this is a 12 Century thing. The Russian army (again) rolling up the Eastern Front at the end of the WWII committed mass rape against ethnic Germans across eastern Europe.
Not just Germans... rapes and lootings were common place wherever Red Army marched. My late Grandma (born in todays western Ukraine) refered to Russian soldiers as "Beasts".
My Polish grandmother in law, having lived through ww2 and the cold war, had some saying akin to 'I'd rather kiss a German in the ass than a Russian on the cheek'.
My grandma who also lived through WW2 said similar things. She survived both German and Russian occupation and she said that Russians were horrible people.
I guess that's what you get when vast majority of your troops aren't really professional, mostly people who couldn't avoid being drafted, uneducated, quite often coming from the fringes of society, borderline criminals etc.
Well, German occupation lasted about 4 years. They flattened Warsaw completely and were evil oppressors to anybody who was opposed to them, but for the rest life mostly went on as usual. Russian "occupation" lasted 45(ish) years. What wasn't flattened yet in Warsaw was now destroyed. Life changed profoundly and any attempt at changing from a planned economy dominated by Russian needs was squashed.
I don't think comparing WW2 vs WW2+cold war brutalities in Poland is ever going to be a fair comparison. That said, it's clear that Stalin gave less than 0 fucks about civilian casualties in Poland. Not that what happened in Poland 70 years ago should be at all informative about modern Russian' soldiers' propensity for committing war crimes. Chechnya, Syria and Georgia seem like they'd be far more representative.
I really don't get it. The Russians had everything to lose by being unnecessarily brutal to the civilians, and yet they did it, smashing their own storyline of "denazification" to pieces and making sure Ukrainian and international opposition grow stronger. Even some Russians in Ukraine initially supporting the invasion might turn their backs on them now. And then an official claim the Ukrainians use "actors", like that shouldn't be disproven by both incoming investigations and hundreds of witnesses.
On April 04 2022 06:24 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: I am honestly curious to see if said leaders respond. Especially Merkel whose legacy seems to be slowly sinking. Heck Politico, a couple of days ago, essentially called her a Russian asset.
Slowly but surely, it’s begun to dawn on Germans that Merkel’s soft-shoe approach to Russia — which reached its zenith with the 2015 decision to green light the Nord Stream 2 pipeline despite Russia’s annexation of Crimea and its role in the separatist war in eastern Ukraine — didn’t just open the door for Putin to go further, it effectively encouraged him to do so.
I don't think anybody saw this coming 7 years ago that Putin would go full lunatic. Heck most people didn't see this coming 8 weeks ago.
EDIT: If not for Merkel, Putin would have maybe gone allin back in 2015 already. Who knows
Economic integration is fine and good, getting yourself dependent on a murderous dictator for energy (if you have options) is really bad. If you do it because of irrational fear of nuclear power it's even worse.
I don't have sources for it now, but it seems like something that a lot of people complained about already back then. To me it always seemed - at least since the assassinations of journalists, political opponents etc started - insane to make yourself dependent on Putin's gas. From an environmental and geopolitical point of view a complete disaster. And not that hard to spot. Even this fucking guy got it right (jump to 6:40 to avoid the initial word salad):
On April 04 2022 06:24 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: I am honestly curious to see if said leaders respond. Especially Merkel whose legacy seems to be slowly sinking. Heck Politico, a couple of days ago, essentially called her a Russian asset.
Slowly but surely, it’s begun to dawn on Germans that Merkel’s soft-shoe approach to Russia — which reached its zenith with the 2015 decision to green light the Nord Stream 2 pipeline despite Russia’s annexation of Crimea and its role in the separatist war in eastern Ukraine — didn’t just open the door for Putin to go further, it effectively encouraged him to do so.
I don't think anybody saw this coming 7 years ago that Putin would go full lunatic. Heck most people didn't see this coming 8 weeks ago.
EDIT: If not for Merkel, Putin would have maybe gone allin back in 2015 already. Who knows
Economic integration is fine and good, getting yourself dependent on a murderous dictator for energy (if you have options) is really bad. If you do it because of irrational fear of nuclear power it's even worse.
I don't have sources for it now, but it seems like something that a lot of people complained about already back then. To me it always seemed - at least since the assassinations of journalists, political opponents etc started - insane to make yourself dependent on Putin's gas. From an environmental and geopolitical point of view a complete disaster. And not that hard to spot. Even this fucking guy got it right (jump to 6:40 to avoid the initial word salad):
Segment from 2:15 to 6:40 is equally important. Trump making the case that Germany buying oil from Russia while not even paying their NATO fees, to protect them from Russia, was unacceptable. The media run this as "Trump wants to weaken NATO".
On April 04 2022 06:24 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: I am honestly curious to see if said leaders respond. Especially Merkel whose legacy seems to be slowly sinking. Heck Politico, a couple of days ago, essentially called her a Russian asset.
Slowly but surely, it’s begun to dawn on Germans that Merkel’s soft-shoe approach to Russia — which reached its zenith with the 2015 decision to green light the Nord Stream 2 pipeline despite Russia’s annexation of Crimea and its role in the separatist war in eastern Ukraine — didn’t just open the door for Putin to go further, it effectively encouraged him to do so.
I don't think anybody saw this coming 7 years ago that Putin would go full lunatic. Heck most people didn't see this coming 8 weeks ago.
EDIT: If not for Merkel, Putin would have maybe gone allin back in 2015 already. Who knows
Economic integration is fine and good, getting yourself dependent on a murderous dictator for energy (if you have options) is really bad. If you do it because of irrational fear of nuclear power it's even worse.
I don't have sources for it now, but it seems like something that a lot of people complained about already back then. To me it always seemed - at least since the assassinations of journalists, political opponents etc started - insane to make yourself dependent on Putin's gas. From an environmental and geopolitical point of view a complete disaster. And not that hard to spot. Even this fucking guy got it right (jump to 6:40 to avoid the initial word salad):
Segment from 2:15 to 6:40 is equally important. Trump making the case that Germany buying oil from Russia while not even paying their NATO fees, to protect them from Russia, was unacceptable. The media run this as "Trump wants to weaken NATO".
There are no NATO fees which Germany is not paying.
EPT
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