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On April 02 2022 19:32 Magic Powers wrote: Stalin was fearful of a German invasion into Russia because Germany had already invaded Poland, among other countries, and later allied with Romania. His fears were therefore grounded in a history of recently observed aggression, and in 1941 he was in fact proven right with Operation Barbarossa.
Hitler for his own reasons became afraid of Stalin fully reclaiming Poland at some point, as it was already partially claimed by both Germany and Russia, which was not to Hitler's liking. Notice the difference, as that is a fear of losing foreign occupied territory rendering Hitler's dreams of conquest unlikely, not fears of Germany being attacked by Russia; comparable to Putin's fears of Ukraine becoming a NATO member rendering his dreams of conquest impossible, not fears of NATO (or member states of NATO) attacking Russia. Putin likes Ukraine vulnerable, i.e. not as a part of NATO. Why is that? As the economic and geopolitical value of Ukraine kept increasing and the likelihood of them joining NATO also kept increasing, Putin's window of opportunity to claim the country (as he did when he turned Chechnya into rubble for similar reasons) was quickly shrinking, which is what I suspect caused him to invade now rather than later.
Putin therefore has no observed aggression from any country to point to as justification for his invasion of Ukraine (or of Chechnya for that matter). His fears are that of a conquerer potentially being stopped in his tracks. If anyone should have cause for concern about possible aggression, it's literally everyone other than Russia. Because the aggression has been coming from Russia for the longest time.
it's wrong that Stalin was afraid of a German invasion. They were also happy that the German army was busy invading in the East after Poland was annexed, as they could grab other countries in the meanwhile. It came as a total suprise to the SU leadership, notwithstanding all the evidence they must've heard about.
Look it up in Shirer's the rise and fall of the third Reich. It's thoroughly sourced in there.
It's a common misconception that Stalin wasn't afraid of/expecting a German invasion. He predicted the attack to take place and was about to start preparations, but he believed he had time for another year. He was off about the timing of the invasion, which came as a surprise to him because he thought that Hitler would, at that time, be unwilling to wage war on two fronts due to lessons learned from the first world war.
People blame him for being wrong because British intelligence sent him a copy of the orders the moment Hitler decided but he dismissed it. Then Soviet intelligence sent him a copy and he dismissed it. Then on the eve of the invasion communist defectors from the Wehrmacht crossed lines at great risk to warn the Soviet Union and were shot for their trouble. Stalin received their warnings but decided it was some kind of trick.
Everyone knew Hitler would eventually invade the Soviet Union because he literally wrote that he would in his book of plans which he had published. The timing was the only part people didn’t know and Stalin was catastrophically wrong on that.
The images from the civilian deaths in Bucha area are just...unreal, both in scale, and brutality. Straight mass murder. Russians went full einsatzkommando. Disgusting and horrifying.
I don't see how there can ever be reconciliation with Russia now. Europe will be at hostile position for decades.
On April 03 2022 06:28 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: The images from the civilian deaths in Bucha area are just...unreal, both in scale, and brutality. Straight mass murder. Russians went full einsatzkommando. Disgusting and horrifying.
I don't see how there can ever be reconciliation with Russia now. Europe will be at hostile position for decades.
Meanwhile, Kremlin is the one putting "nazi" label on anyone opposing their views, but mainly Ukraine. I think it's about time politicians tell them it's hugely disrespectful to Holocaust victims. Has Israel said something about that or are they really trying to be friendly with Russia?!
I know it's meaningless and I get less than impressed with social media trolls nowadays, but some random Serbian woman called me a nazi today for supporting Ukraine. :D I feel like using this label freely is going to be detrimental because future generations won't take it as seriously as they should. It almost becomes an insult rather than the weight that it carries, a criminal.
Edit: I've watched video. This is a war crime, hopefully those responsible are brought to justice.
The Pope is considering a trip to Kyiv... Now imagine if anything happens to him, Russia could piss off two entire continents, Latin America, and Africa, if the Pope is put in a dangerous situation.
VALLETTA, April 2 (Reuters) - Pope Francis said on Saturday he was considering a trip to Kyiv and implicitly criticised Russian President Vladimir Putin over the invasion of Ukraine, saying a "potentate" was fomenting conflict for nationalist interests.
Francis made the comments, first to reporters on the plane taking him to Malta for a two-day visit, and then in a hard-hitting speech in the island's presidential palace that left little doubt who he was referring to.
"From the east of Europe, from the land of the sunrise, the dark shadows of war have now spread. We had thought that invasions of other countries, savage street fighting and atomic threats were grim memories of a distant past," the pope said.
Moscow denies targeting civilians in the action it launched on Feb. 24, which it dubs a "special military operation" designed not to occupy territory but to demilitarise and "denazify" its neighbour. Francis has already rejected that terminology, calling it a war.
"However, the icy winds of war, which bring only death, destruction and hatred in their wake, have swept down powerfully upon the lives of many people and affected us all," Francis said.
"Once again, some potentate, sadly caught up in anachronistic claims of nationalist interests, is provoking and fomenting conflicts, whereas ordinary people sense the need to build a future that, will either be shared, or not be at all," he said, without mentioning Putin by name.
Francis' voice was strong but he sat to deliver his speech. For the first time in his 36 trips abroad, a flare-up of pain in his knee had forced him to use a freight lift to board the plane in Rome and disembark in Valletta - to avoid "unnecessary strain", Vatican spokesman Matteo Bruni said.
The pope, who was limping as he walked in the presidential palace of the predominantly Catholic island, has already strongly condemned what he has called an "unjustified aggression" and denounced "atrocities" in the war.
On April 03 2022 06:28 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: The images from the civilian deaths in Bucha area are just...unreal, both in scale, and brutality. Straight mass murder. Russians went full einsatzkommando. Disgusting and horrifying.
And they just keep coming. Truly unbelievable how the Russian army tops the worst you would imagine.
What horrors are still hidden from us from the - still fiercer - combat around Mariupol?
It might make it less likely sanctions get lifted if a peace agreement is reached but the sad truth is that there is nothing really to do about this. The International Court can jump up and down all it wants, Russia will simply ignore them.
On April 03 2022 07:49 JimmiC wrote: Damn, could something like this have the west giving more direct military support. Its shockingly awful to see even after you read it and know its coming.
Every day for the last 36 days we’ve been told that Mariupol is days/hours from falling. I can’t imagine what they’ve endured in the last month but I hope Ukraine is able to pull Russian efforts away from there with the forces now freed up near Kyiv.
On April 03 2022 07:12 Gorsameth wrote: It might make it less likely sanctions get lifted if a peace agreement is reached but the sad truth is that there is nothing really to do about this. The International Court can jump up and down all it wants, Russia will simply ignore them.
There's many things we can still do. Energy sanctions, more military aid and even direct intervention. All should be on the table. It's gone far enough.
On April 03 2022 13:44 JimmiC wrote: If that is confirmed, it is not 12 century. It be time to stop the pretense of were not fighting Russia and just launch a real serious air strike on them from like 4-10 country at the same time as a big, this is not acceptable war practice and there will serious fucking consequences.
How do you avoid this escalating into a nuclear war, which would be idk at least a thousand times worse?
On April 02 2022 19:32 Magic Powers wrote: Stalin was fearful of a German invasion into Russia because Germany had already invaded Poland, among other countries, and later allied with Romania. His fears were therefore grounded in a history of recently observed aggression, and in 1941 he was in fact proven right with Operation Barbarossa.
Hitler for his own reasons became afraid of Stalin fully reclaiming Poland at some point, as it was already partially claimed by both Germany and Russia, which was not to Hitler's liking. Notice the difference, as that is a fear of losing foreign occupied territory rendering Hitler's dreams of conquest unlikely, not fears of Germany being attacked by Russia; comparable to Putin's fears of Ukraine becoming a NATO member rendering his dreams of conquest impossible, not fears of NATO (or member states of NATO) attacking Russia. Putin likes Ukraine vulnerable, i.e. not as a part of NATO. Why is that? As the economic and geopolitical value of Ukraine kept increasing and the likelihood of them joining NATO also kept increasing, Putin's window of opportunity to claim the country (as he did when he turned Chechnya into rubble for similar reasons) was quickly shrinking, which is what I suspect caused him to invade now rather than later.
Putin therefore has no observed aggression from any country to point to as justification for his invasion of Ukraine (or of Chechnya for that matter). His fears are that of a conquerer potentially being stopped in his tracks. If anyone should have cause for concern about possible aggression, it's literally everyone other than Russia. Because the aggression has been coming from Russia for the longest time.
it's wrong that Stalin was afraid of a German invasion. They were also happy that the German army was busy invading in the East after Poland was annexed, as they could grab other countries in the meanwhile. It came as a total suprise to the SU leadership, notwithstanding all the evidence they must've heard about.
Look it up in Shirer's the rise and fall of the third Reich. It's thoroughly sourced in there.
It's a common misconception that Stalin wasn't afraid of/expecting a German invasion. He predicted the attack to take place and was about to start preparations, but he believed he had time for another year. He was off about the timing of the invasion, which came as a surprise to him because he thought that Hitler would, at that time, be unwilling to wage war on two fronts due to lessons learned from the first world war.
I'm all up for broadening my horizon, could you point me into the direction of what historians and or books that support your statement?
On April 02 2022 19:32 Magic Powers wrote: Stalin was fearful of a German invasion into Russia because Germany had already invaded Poland, among other countries, and later allied with Romania. His fears were therefore grounded in a history of recently observed aggression, and in 1941 he was in fact proven right with Operation Barbarossa.
Hitler for his own reasons became afraid of Stalin fully reclaiming Poland at some point, as it was already partially claimed by both Germany and Russia, which was not to Hitler's liking. Notice the difference, as that is a fear of losing foreign occupied territory rendering Hitler's dreams of conquest unlikely, not fears of Germany being attacked by Russia; comparable to Putin's fears of Ukraine becoming a NATO member rendering his dreams of conquest impossible, not fears of NATO (or member states of NATO) attacking Russia. Putin likes Ukraine vulnerable, i.e. not as a part of NATO. Why is that? As the economic and geopolitical value of Ukraine kept increasing and the likelihood of them joining NATO also kept increasing, Putin's window of opportunity to claim the country (as he did when he turned Chechnya into rubble for similar reasons) was quickly shrinking, which is what I suspect caused him to invade now rather than later.
Putin therefore has no observed aggression from any country to point to as justification for his invasion of Ukraine (or of Chechnya for that matter). His fears are that of a conquerer potentially being stopped in his tracks. If anyone should have cause for concern about possible aggression, it's literally everyone other than Russia. Because the aggression has been coming from Russia for the longest time.
it's wrong that Stalin was afraid of a German invasion. They were also happy that the German army was busy invading in the East after Poland was annexed, as they could grab other countries in the meanwhile. It came as a total suprise to the SU leadership, notwithstanding all the evidence they must've heard about.
Look it up in Shirer's the rise and fall of the third Reich. It's thoroughly sourced in there.
It's a common misconception that Stalin wasn't afraid of/expecting a German invasion. He predicted the attack to take place and was about to start preparations, but he believed he had time for another year. He was off about the timing of the invasion, which came as a surprise to him because he thought that Hitler would, at that time, be unwilling to wage war on two fronts due to lessons learned from the first world war.
I'm all up for broadening my horizon, could you point me into the direction of what historians and or books that support your statement?
If documentaries are good enough, then this one: + Show Spoiler +
- Stalin was warned multiple times about invasion but he thought it was false information to turn him against Hitler - Stalin didn't believe Hitler would start a war on 2 fronts, but he expected invasion - Stalin expected invasion later and was surprised, hence Blitzkrieg
With the revelations of some horrific atrocities on Ukrainian civilians in places like Bucha, I expect a ramping up of sanctions and a loosening of some reluctance to send heavier ordinance. Maybe even countries that were on the fence about sanctions or military aid might start participating. More AA weapons might be the best alternative if NATO has nixed sending fighter jets or establishing a NFZ.
EPT
