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On August 21 2024 01:34 WombaT wrote: I was responding to your generalisation of what makes a ‘yes man’, which I think is perfectly valid as an archetype incidentally, with one of my own regarding ‘independent thinkers’ , quotation marks are there for a reason. Well, not strictly speaking my own but one I think tracks.
Perhaps you’re 100% correct here, I don’t know, I didn’t check, nor did I pass comment on whether you were or not.
To reject the orthodox, or unorthodox out of hand are two sides of the same coin was my generalistic observation, and that path frequently leads to being incorrect. We saw this pretty neatly illustrated in Covid times, and not to the betterment of discourse or understanding.
There’s no back-and-forth here to determine unpalatable truths or whatever, there’s maybe a post or two and you just say someone is blinded by propaganda or uneducated.
Does that fly in your particular field of academic study?
Sorry for my rudeness in the previous post, that was due to my imagination that you could be trying to confound the discussion, but now its more likely that we are just too different in mindtypes.
Almost every single person that I've blamed here of being brainwashed have been trying to project an extremely biased and unfair view on the Russian society as a whole. I don't mind personal attacks on me, which sometimes could be deserved, but things like these I see as the outcome of a prolonged consumption of a very biased information, which is brainwashing by definition.
On August 21 2024 01:34 WombaT wrote: I was responding to your generalisation of what makes a ‘yes man’, which I think is perfectly valid as an archetype incidentally, with one of my own regarding ‘independent thinkers’ , quotation marks are there for a reason. Well, not strictly speaking my own but one I think tracks.
Perhaps you’re 100% correct here, I don’t know, I didn’t check, nor did I pass comment on whether you were or not.
To reject the orthodox, or unorthodox out of hand are two sides of the same coin was my generalistic observation, and that path frequently leads to being incorrect. We saw this pretty neatly illustrated in Covid times, and not to the betterment of discourse or understanding.
There’s no back-and-forth here to determine unpalatable truths or whatever, there’s maybe a post or two and you just say someone is blinded by propaganda or uneducated.
Does that fly in your particular field of academic study?
Sorry for my rudeness in the previous post, that was due to my imagination that you could be trying to confound the discussion, but now its more likely that we are just too different in mindtypes.
Almost every single person that I've blamed here of being brainwashed have been trying to project an extremely biased and unfair view on the Russian society as a whole. I don't mind personal attacks on me, which sometimes could be deserved, but things like these I see as the outcome of a prolonged consumption of a very biased information, which is brainwashing by definition.
I understand plenty of Russians don't like Putin, or his regime. Plenty don't support the war for sure. And I understand that they are not public about such opinions because they land you in a Siberian gulag.
But at some point a people bear responsibility for the actions of their government and their silent endorsement.
If I were in a random Russian position I would probably also keep my head down and just pretend nothing is happening cause I doubt I do well in a work camp. But I would also hope I would be understand of anyone criticising me and 'my people' for doing nothing.
On August 21 2024 04:03 Elroi wrote: Lol that’s awkward. The subs are on point. Don’t think that necessarily makes the Ukrainians any more nazi than the ss tattoos on that Wagner commander make the Russians nazi.
I wouldn't say "the Ukrainians are Nazis" but Ukraine and the West certainly have a hard time keeping neonazis out of their pro-Ukrainian western propaganda.
It's not like there aren't neonazis in every military, but I can't think of another western military that would let them wear SS helmets, let alone send it out to be played on western news programs as pro-Ukrainian propaganda.
Gotta love that the reaction wasn't that the neonazis are problematic, but letting people see them is the problem. I agree with the panel that it is a terrible propaganda mistake, but I don't think that's really the main problem with unabashed neonazis spearheading your war efforts.
basically, an old local villager looking lost approaches the soldiers, and they start mocking him, trying to imitate a German accent; that villager's whereabouts are unknown since that time (there are news that he's been found, but that's unconfirmed too).
I like a lot a comment from the same Pikabu thread, "as hard as our (Russian) propagandists are trying to discredit the spec. mil.op., our neighbours (Ukrainians) always come and create an appropriate impression"
-second, just my estimation - in 2014-2022 about 5% of Ukraine were hardcore Nazis; they were the spearhead of all the political process, just the same as in Mussolini's Italy, except for they were mostly fighting locals with an active pro-Russian position
On August 21 2024 06:01 0x64 wrote: I'm very surprised that Russians are surprised that extremist nationalist are on the front line to fight for their country... We are not blind to the irony that Nazi Russia is getting ass kicked by Nazi Ukraine...
The main issue in Russia is that the Nazi's are in power, not on front line. It's like an self-fulfilling prophecy. Attack country, make everyone mad... "oh see how much they hate us, we told you!!" ... Yeah no shit, you have been massacring them for 2 years.
Fuck Nazis.
-which exact nation our nazi should be rooting for? we have >100 here, with at least 5 national groups having quite a significant share of population (Russians, Tatars, Caucasians, Jews, Ukrainians, far East people, and so on)?
Agree on the Fuck Nazis part.
On August 21 2024 16:49 _fool wrote: I've been following this thread since the beginning of the war. It was one of my more reliable news sources because people from all sides of the conflict shared their information, experiences, views. Those views were biased by media, sure, but biased from both sides still gave me a good hunch of what was going on.
No longer so, sadly. The thread slowly spiraled into a clash of echo chambers. I no longer believe anyone is able to convince people like zeo or a_ch when it comes to any western point of view. And vice versa, I no longer believe that anyone would be listening if zeo or a_ch would actually make a valid point.
So I'm out. This thread no longer delivers what it used to. Shoutout to Ardias for providing the Russia point of view during the early days, and to all the others that chipped in.
-sorry for that. My subthread with @maybenexttime is definitely an example of propaganda (which I openly stated at the start) due to some personal reasons. If the problem is - there's too many of me here, I promise to significantly reduce activity starting September 1st, when my vacation ends. Although I disagree that this thread is close to being unbiased
On August 21 2024 01:34 WombaT wrote: I was responding to your generalisation of what makes a ‘yes man’, which I think is perfectly valid as an archetype incidentally, with one of my own regarding ‘independent thinkers’ , quotation marks are there for a reason. Well, not strictly speaking my own but one I think tracks.
Perhaps you’re 100% correct here, I don’t know, I didn’t check, nor did I pass comment on whether you were or not.
To reject the orthodox, or unorthodox out of hand are two sides of the same coin was my generalistic observation, and that path frequently leads to being incorrect. We saw this pretty neatly illustrated in Covid times, and not to the betterment of discourse or understanding.
There’s no back-and-forth here to determine unpalatable truths or whatever, there’s maybe a post or two and you just say someone is blinded by propaganda or uneducated.
Does that fly in your particular field of academic study?
Sorry for my rudeness in the previous post, that was due to my imagination that you could be trying to confound the discussion, but now its more likely that we are just too different in mindtypes.
Almost every single person that I've blamed here of being brainwashed have been trying to project an extremely biased and unfair view on the Russian society as a whole. I don't mind personal attacks on me, which sometimes could be deserved, but things like these I see as the outcome of a prolonged consumption of a very biased information, which is brainwashing by definition.
I understand plenty of Russians don't like Putin, or his regime. Plenty don't support the war for sure. And I understand that they are not public about such opinions because they land you in a Siberian gulag.
But at some point a people bear responsibility for the actions of their government and their silent endorsement.
If I were in a random Russian position I would probably also keep my head down and just pretend nothing is happening cause I doubt I do well in a work camp. But I would also hope I would be understand of anyone criticising me and 'my people' for doing nothing.
If you are thinking of a collective responsibility, you may try to think, whether sending tons of weapons to one side of a conflict you have no basic understanding of, makes you an accomplice. On the Gulag part - don't know about Netherlands, but in England you have a much higher share of population jailed because of comments in social media etc. than in todays Russia.
Ed.: on the Putin's support - there is definitely a significant anti-Putin share of people, which is larger in the big cities
Every country has its fair share of morons who confuse freedom of speech with freedom to insult.
There's a difference between being arrested for insulting people or riling others up for violence and being arrested for voicing your displeasure with the war your country started or your own government.
The idea that British prisons are overflowing with people who expressed wrongthink on social media is simply laughable. That just isn’t a thing that happened.
It’s amusing to me that regular Russians have all these weird beliefs about life in the west from their state tv and yet the family of their state tv propagandists all live in the west. The contradictions there don’t register for them.
I enjoyed this lunatic member of the Russian duma on state tv insisting that the reason the west isn’t friendly with Russia is because they haven’t nuked it enough. But if they nuked Britain unprovoked then France and Germany would respect Russia again and want to be friends. They’re really weird.
On August 21 2024 01:34 WombaT wrote: I was responding to your generalisation of what makes a ‘yes man’, which I think is perfectly valid as an archetype incidentally, with one of my own regarding ‘independent thinkers’ , quotation marks are there for a reason. Well, not strictly speaking my own but one I think tracks.
Perhaps you’re 100% correct here, I don’t know, I didn’t check, nor did I pass comment on whether you were or not.
To reject the orthodox, or unorthodox out of hand are two sides of the same coin was my generalistic observation, and that path frequently leads to being incorrect. We saw this pretty neatly illustrated in Covid times, and not to the betterment of discourse or understanding.
There’s no back-and-forth here to determine unpalatable truths or whatever, there’s maybe a post or two and you just say someone is blinded by propaganda or uneducated.
Does that fly in your particular field of academic study?
Sorry for my rudeness in the previous post, that was due to my imagination that you could be trying to confound the discussion, but now its more likely that we are just too different in mindtypes.
Almost every single person that I've blamed here of being brainwashed have been trying to project an extremely biased and unfair view on the Russian society as a whole. I don't mind personal attacks on me, which sometimes could be deserved, but things like these I see as the outcome of a prolonged consumption of a very biased information, which is brainwashing by definition.
I understand plenty of Russians don't like Putin, or his regime. Plenty don't support the war for sure. And I understand that they are not public about such opinions because they land you in a Siberian gulag.
But at some point a people bear responsibility for the actions of their government and their silent endorsement.
If I were in a random Russian position I would probably also keep my head down and just pretend nothing is happening cause I doubt I do well in a work camp. But I would also hope I would be understand of anyone criticising me and 'my people' for doing nothing.
If you are thinking of a collective responsibility, you may try to think, whether sending tons of weapons to one side of a conflict you have no basic understanding of, makes you an accomplice. On the Gulag part - don't know about Netherlands, but in England you have a much higher share of population jailed because of comments in social media etc. than in todays Russia.
Ed.: on the Putin's support - there is definitely a significant anti-Putin share of people, which is larger in the big cities
I have no problem being an accomplice to the deaths of Russian soldiers aggressively invading a country.
On August 21 2024 20:04 Manit0u wrote: Every country has its fair share of morons who confuse freedom of speech with freedom to insult.
There's a difference between being arrested for insulting people or riling others up for violence and being arrested for voicing your displeasure with the war your country started or your own government.
-do you think the share of those who insult people or rile others up for violence in England is higher than that plus the displeased with the war in Russia?
The discreditation law provides criminal court for those who actively spread fake/propaganda casualty numbers and interpretations of events; 8 persons have been put to jail according to it during the 1st half of 2023, https://www.rbc.ru/politics/23/10/2023/6535e4069a7947cf92efe841
On August 21 2024 01:34 WombaT wrote: I was responding to your generalisation of what makes a ‘yes man’, which I think is perfectly valid as an archetype incidentally, with one of my own regarding ‘independent thinkers’ , quotation marks are there for a reason. Well, not strictly speaking my own but one I think tracks.
Perhaps you’re 100% correct here, I don’t know, I didn’t check, nor did I pass comment on whether you were or not.
To reject the orthodox, or unorthodox out of hand are two sides of the same coin was my generalistic observation, and that path frequently leads to being incorrect. We saw this pretty neatly illustrated in Covid times, and not to the betterment of discourse or understanding.
There’s no back-and-forth here to determine unpalatable truths or whatever, there’s maybe a post or two and you just say someone is blinded by propaganda or uneducated.
Does that fly in your particular field of academic study?
Sorry for my rudeness in the previous post, that was due to my imagination that you could be trying to confound the discussion, but now its more likely that we are just too different in mindtypes.
Almost every single person that I've blamed here of being brainwashed have been trying to project an extremely biased and unfair view on the Russian society as a whole. I don't mind personal attacks on me, which sometimes could be deserved, but things like these I see as the outcome of a prolonged consumption of a very biased information, which is brainwashing by definition.
I understand plenty of Russians don't like Putin, or his regime. Plenty don't support the war for sure. And I understand that they are not public about such opinions because they land you in a Siberian gulag.
But at some point a people bear responsibility for the actions of their government and their silent endorsement.
If I were in a random Russian position I would probably also keep my head down and just pretend nothing is happening cause I doubt I do well in a work camp. But I would also hope I would be understand of anyone criticising me and 'my people' for doing nothing.
If you are thinking of a collective responsibility, you may try to think, whether sending tons of weapons to one side of a conflict you have no basic understanding of, makes you an accomplice. On the Gulag part - don't know about Netherlands, but in England you have a much higher share of population jailed because of comments in social media etc. than in todays Russia.
Ed.: on the Putin's support - there is definitely a significant anti-Putin share of people, which is larger in the big cities
I have no problem being an accomplice to the deaths of Russian soldiers aggressively invading a country.
-so a person wishing for deaths of Russians blames me of lacking a moral consideration, how nice. You look fun with this kind of a redneckish superiority complex
On August 21 2024 20:35 sertas wrote: the russian government is copying the nazi playbook 100% and that doesnt seem to be a problem for you, double standards much
-and if I'll ask you to bring me some valid evidence of that you'll say nothing as the previous time with the evidence of "Kiev attack miserably failing"?
On August 21 2024 20:35 sertas wrote: the russian government is copying the nazi playbook 100% and that doesnt seem to be a problem for you, double standards much
-and if I'll ask you to bring me some valid evidence of that you'll say nothing as the previous time with the evidence of "Kiev attack miserably failing"?
Hitler claimed that German speakers in Czechoslovakia were being oppressed. Then he sent paramilitaries into Czechoslovakia to attack Czechoslovak government offices while posing as native German speakers. Then he presented the crackdown as repression and invaded to protect the Germans.
The problem with Russian WW2 history books is that they start in 1941. They don’t include the bit where they armed the Nazis, allied with the Nazis, and started the war fighting alongside the Nazis in breach of their non aggression agreement with Poland.
Russia ignores the geneva convention. Executes pows. Targets hospitals (200 hospitals hit so far in the war, russis also known for targetting hospitals in syria before this war, also they hit many supermarkets recent weeks during daytime filled with civilians), Bucha massacre and izyum massacres. Torture centers in occupied ukrainian cities, (favourite technique is nail pulling).
They also copied the exact same reasons that nazi germany used to start ww2.
You really don't know anything about all this? This is just the basics there's obviously more that you obviously know about since you are so "well informed" according to yourself.
Also the kyiv attack miserably failing will never be admitted by russia (if they didnt already admit it). Because the only people who know what the plan was is the abolut top of the russian mafia, ops i meant russian government, and they will never admit what the original plan was (its so fucking obvious they wanted zelensky to flee the country, which he almost did, and that ukraine would give up, but sure brainwashed russians can convince themselfs this was super high level mindgame manoveour to go all the way to kyiv then retreat and lose all that time and manpower and material for "diversion tactics" lol.
The only statement i remember about this is that they said "we retreat from kyiv because we want peace" or something like that.
On August 21 2024 16:49 _fool wrote: I've been following this thread since the beginning of the war. It was one of my more reliable news sources because people from all sides of the conflict shared their information, experiences, views. Those views were biased by media, sure, but biased from both sides still gave me a good hunch of what was going on.
No longer so, sadly. The thread slowly spiraled into a clash of echo chambers. I no longer believe anyone is able to convince people like zeo or a_ch when it comes to any western point of view. And vice versa, I no longer believe that anyone would be listening if zeo or a_ch would actually make a valid point.
So I'm out. This thread no longer delivers what it used to. Shoutout to Ardias for providing the Russia point of view during the early days, and to all the others that chipped in.
I'm not sure if I agree. The same individuals have been spewing the same brainwashed conspiratorial bullshit since the beginning. But there was also a lot of things happening in the beginning, lending itself to discussions and updates about it. Things are obviously calmer atm, but the same bullshit is still being spewed, making that take up a higher percentage of comments in here.
The current status is that Ukraine have pushed into Kursk, but in doing so have thinned out their lines in the southeast, allowing Russia to push further into Ukraine with about the same amount (altough at a substancially higher loss). Moving the lines, even if the gains and losses of pure territory ends up being the same, is very beneficial for Ukraine, as that allows their superior training and equipment to equal out Russias substancial superiority in pure numbers and artillery.
However, Ukraine seems to have stopped pushing (at least seemingly so. The fog of war is strong atm). It could either be because Russia finally mobilized enough troops to stop it, but also equally likely that they simply completed their objective (which was to cross the border and take the fight to Russia), and are now bolstering their lines so they can move people down to stop Russia's advance in the south east (where the Ukranian troops are by all reports being incredibly scrappy, barely making due with little resources and men).
At the end of all this, we're likely to see both sides dig in and go back to static warfare for the winter. So tl;dr: not much has changed, except Ukraine have gotten some legit leverage in any potential negotiations with Russia.
On August 21 2024 20:56 sertas wrote: Russia ignores the geneva convention. Executes pows. Targets hospitals (200 hospitals hit so far in the war, russis also known for targetting hospitals in syria before this war, also they hit many supermarkets recent weeks during daytime filled with civilians), Bucha massacre and izyum massacres. Torture centers in occupied ukrainian cities, (favourite technique is nail pulling).
They also copied the exact same reasons that nazi germany used to start ww2.
You really don't know anything about all this? This is just the basics there's obviously more that you obviously know about since you are so "well informed" according to yourself.
the 1st part is fun, because Geneva convention has been established in 1949 (a sidenote for rednecks - after WW2, WW2 is the war where Nazis have been defeated), so violating it or not cannot be compared with Nazis' actions. The US supports Ukraine with cluster munition, don't see a reason not to follow.
The government doesn't execute POWs, neither torture them.
Targets hospitals, supermarkets - UA side does that a lot too. Its quite easy to find numerous confirmations that UA intentionally uses civil buildings for armed forces - I've posted a videolink with ~20 soldiers in a UA school recently in the discussion with @maybenexttime. There's even an Amnesty International report confirming this, which is surprising since all Western human-rights organisations most of the times are simply political influence tools.
Bucha massacre has been staged (it is confirmed that the dead people there have been killed mainly by the Ukrainian artillery shrapnel) for a very simple and obvious reason - to cancel Istanbul peace negotiations. Izyum massacre - https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/07/06/ukraine-civilian-deaths-cluster-munitions, most of civilian deaths again are due to artillery; there are videos of UA soldiers shooting point-blank pro-Russian Izyum administration personnel
>>They also copied the exact same reasons that nazi germany used to start ww2 - you have already failed to provide evidence for a similar statement. Also, I doubt that you can substantiate on what the nazi Germany' reasons for WW2 were.
EPT
