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Russian Federation240 Posts
On August 20 2024 22:55 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2024 07:11 a_ch wrote:On August 20 2024 06:52 WombaT wrote:On August 20 2024 04:30 a_ch wrote:On August 20 2024 04:11 KwarK wrote:On August 20 2024 03:55 a_ch wrote:On August 19 2024 23:57 sertas wrote:
Obviously, russia expected Zelensky to flee the country and russia to be seen as "liberators" and that even if ukraine fights they are completely outmatched.
do you have any factual evidence of these expectation? Not an opinion of some propagandist, but facts. Russians packed parade uniforms, made restaurant reservations, and forgot to put their economy on a war footing. They either didn’t expect a serious fight or they’re very bad at planning. In fairness Crimea wasn’t a serious fight so it’s not unreasonable to assume the rest might fold. I think it’s not in dispute that where we’re at now certainly wasn’t the original plan when they were sending the VDV into Hostomel. Any argument against poor Russian planning has to explain how the plan involved the collapse of Russian lines during the Kharkiv counteroffensive and huge amounts of Russian hardware being captured (Russia is still by far the largest donor of tanks to Ukraine). I think it’s less embarrassing for Russia to have had a shit plan than for this to be the plan. A slight off-topic but still, since you continue to follow most of my posts: Several times in my carieer I encountered people, who decided for themselves that they are intellectually not a match for being top-tier, and chose a path of a 'yes-man' of some sort. I have the same feeling of deliberate intellectual self-castration in each of your post - it is very clear that you understand how dumb are the things that you write, but you have to continue, - and this cognitive dissonance is destroying you. It is quite clear that you are have a significant stake in the ongoing events, but you side is bound to lose, and your skills would be much less valued afterwards. It is never too late to change this That is also the exact same path conspiracy theorists and contrarians tread. Can’t compete in the world of discussing and disseminating fact? Well anyone can be the master in the domain of alternative facts. Characterised by regurgitating propaganda, just from a different source, being unable to actually discuss challenges to a worldview beyond ‘well you’re brainwashed’ etc etc -why do you think so? I've started this subthread with @maybenexttime with an open notion that any emotional one-sided stories are propaganda - and I'm generally not into this sort of stuff as you may notice. My one and only reason of being here is procrastination - so any topic would be fine, and challenges to a worldview is a perfect one - but perhaps I have missed an open end of a discussion Btw, I disagree on the conspiracy theorist part - because often it is exactly a challenge to a common worldview To properly challenge an orthodox worldview, one has to understand said worldview and be able to couch alternatives within it. And engage with folks who largely follow it. It’s 2024 however, so it becomes less interpretative and more ‘actually all those things you think happened and raised didn’t happen so I’m right’ But this trend is equally as prominent, if not more in the ‘critical thinkers’ than the ‘hey I’m not an expert I just watch the news’. People will dismiss folks out of hand if they’ve seen this rodeo enough hands, it’s not indicative of any lack of open-mindedness, just seeking other pastures where it may actually be found. Sure, Russian propaganda is a challenge to my worldview, but given that is transparently absolute bollocks it’s not an interesting, or valid challenge to my preconceptions.
-can you be more substantive? Or has @jodljodl bitten you into speaking gibberish?
Thats very simple: you state a claim or a question - I try to answer, and that's it.
Btw, a challenge to you: find me at least one falsifiable statement (google if you don't know whats it) in the 3 previous posts, to make me think that your mental disability is not too severe
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Northern Ireland26811 Posts
On August 20 2024 23:22 jodljodl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2024 22:55 WombaT wrote:On August 20 2024 07:11 a_ch wrote:On August 20 2024 06:52 WombaT wrote:On August 20 2024 04:30 a_ch wrote:On August 20 2024 04:11 KwarK wrote:On August 20 2024 03:55 a_ch wrote:On August 19 2024 23:57 sertas wrote:
Obviously, russia expected Zelensky to flee the country and russia to be seen as "liberators" and that even if ukraine fights they are completely outmatched.
do you have any factual evidence of these expectation? Not an opinion of some propagandist, but facts. Russians packed parade uniforms, made restaurant reservations, and forgot to put their economy on a war footing. They either didn’t expect a serious fight or they’re very bad at planning. In fairness Crimea wasn’t a serious fight so it’s not unreasonable to assume the rest might fold. I think it’s not in dispute that where we’re at now certainly wasn’t the original plan when they were sending the VDV into Hostomel. Any argument against poor Russian planning has to explain how the plan involved the collapse of Russian lines during the Kharkiv counteroffensive and huge amounts of Russian hardware being captured (Russia is still by far the largest donor of tanks to Ukraine). I think it’s less embarrassing for Russia to have had a shit plan than for this to be the plan. A slight off-topic but still, since you continue to follow most of my posts: Several times in my carieer I encountered people, who decided for themselves that they are intellectually not a match for being top-tier, and chose a path of a 'yes-man' of some sort. I have the same feeling of deliberate intellectual self-castration in each of your post - it is very clear that you understand how dumb are the things that you write, but you have to continue, - and this cognitive dissonance is destroying you. It is quite clear that you are have a significant stake in the ongoing events, but you side is bound to lose, and your skills would be much less valued afterwards. It is never too late to change this That is also the exact same path conspiracy theorists and contrarians tread. Can’t compete in the world of discussing and disseminating fact? Well anyone can be the master in the domain of alternative facts. Characterised by regurgitating propaganda, just from a different source, being unable to actually discuss challenges to a worldview beyond ‘well you’re brainwashed’ etc etc -why do you think so? I've started this subthread with @maybenexttime with an open notion that any emotional one-sided stories are propaganda - and I'm generally not into this sort of stuff as you may notice. My one and only reason of being here is procrastination - so any topic would be fine, and challenges to a worldview is a perfect one - but perhaps I have missed an open end of a discussion Btw, I disagree on the conspiracy theorist part - because often it is exactly a challenge to a common worldview To properly challenge an orthodox worldview, one has to understand said worldview and be able to couch alternatives within it. And engage with folks who largely follow it. It’s 2024 however, so it becomes less interpretative and more ‘actually all those things you think happened and raised didn’t happen so I’m right’ But this trend is equally as prominent, if not more in the ‘critical thinkers’ than the ‘hey I’m not an expert I just watch the news’. People will dismiss folks out of hand if they’ve seen this rodeo enough hands, it’s not indicative of any lack of open-mindedness, just seeking other pastures where it may actually be found. Sure, Russian propaganda is a challenge to my worldview, but given that is transparently absolute bollocks it’s not an interesting, or valid challenge to my preconceptions. i like the way you write 
Why thank you! Someone has to I suppose
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United States43991 Posts
On August 20 2024 23:47 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2024 22:51 KwarK wrote:On August 20 2024 22:41 zeo wrote:On August 20 2024 22:31 KwarK wrote:On August 20 2024 22:21 zeo wrote:On August 20 2024 21:48 KwarK wrote:
I think it’s useful to have a Russian around so that we can remember why we need to keep sending Ukraine weapons. Though he may not personally receive a delivery of 180,000 tungsten balls he is representative of a popular attitude in Russia. It’s a problem best treated with tungsten. When sufficient tungsten has been delivered to the necessary recipients we may have peace with the more reasonable Russians. To the last Ukrainian!  They’d fight on with sticks if all they had was sticks. They know what it is like to live under Russian rule. If they’d rather fight to the last Ukrainian than live under Russian rule then that is their right. I do see why the dignity in their struggle is alien to you though. In any event, they don’t have to fight with sticks. If they want to come for the land and the homes of the Donbass and Crimean people with sticks or whatever you want to give them then keep pushing them to do just that. Maybe when the sufficient amount have been sent we may have peace with the more reasonable Kievites left. The Donbas was at peace until Russia invaded it. Ukraine was at peace until the Obama administration sought to overthrow the democratically elected president of Ukraine in a violent coup spearheaded by neonazis thugs. The resulting kakistocracy in Kiev tore the country apart by actively and violently suppressing the 50% of the country that didn't accept the illegal coup. Crimea and the Donbass rightly took it upon themselves to bring back the rule of law from the new illegitimate government in Kiev. The peace ended when Avakov acting as the interior minister in April 2014 declared his 48h anti-terrorist operation. Well, its been almost 3800 days since then so things didn't really turn out how the unelected government planned
There have been democratic elections since then which renders every word you said moot.
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Edit: I need to learn to follow my own words of wisdom and stop engaging with straight bullshit
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On August 20 2024 23:58 Excludos wrote:
Edit: I need to learn to follow my own words of wisdom and stop engaging with straight bullshit
Wise and disciplined. Admirable.
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Northern Ireland26811 Posts
On August 20 2024 23:49 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2024 22:55 WombaT wrote:On August 20 2024 07:11 a_ch wrote:On August 20 2024 06:52 WombaT wrote:On August 20 2024 04:30 a_ch wrote:On August 20 2024 04:11 KwarK wrote:On August 20 2024 03:55 a_ch wrote:On August 19 2024 23:57 sertas wrote:
Obviously, russia expected Zelensky to flee the country and russia to be seen as "liberators" and that even if ukraine fights they are completely outmatched.
do you have any factual evidence of these expectation? Not an opinion of some propagandist, but facts. Russians packed parade uniforms, made restaurant reservations, and forgot to put their economy on a war footing. They either didn’t expect a serious fight or they’re very bad at planning. In fairness Crimea wasn’t a serious fight so it’s not unreasonable to assume the rest might fold. I think it’s not in dispute that where we’re at now certainly wasn’t the original plan when they were sending the VDV into Hostomel. Any argument against poor Russian planning has to explain how the plan involved the collapse of Russian lines during the Kharkiv counteroffensive and huge amounts of Russian hardware being captured (Russia is still by far the largest donor of tanks to Ukraine). I think it’s less embarrassing for Russia to have had a shit plan than for this to be the plan. A slight off-topic but still, since you continue to follow most of my posts: Several times in my carieer I encountered people, who decided for themselves that they are intellectually not a match for being top-tier, and chose a path of a 'yes-man' of some sort. I have the same feeling of deliberate intellectual self-castration in each of your post - it is very clear that you understand how dumb are the things that you write, but you have to continue, - and this cognitive dissonance is destroying you. It is quite clear that you are have a significant stake in the ongoing events, but you side is bound to lose, and your skills would be much less valued afterwards. It is never too late to change this That is also the exact same path conspiracy theorists and contrarians tread. Can’t compete in the world of discussing and disseminating fact? Well anyone can be the master in the domain of alternative facts. Characterised by regurgitating propaganda, just from a different source, being unable to actually discuss challenges to a worldview beyond ‘well you’re brainwashed’ etc etc -why do you think so? I've started this subthread with @maybenexttime with an open notion that any emotional one-sided stories are propaganda - and I'm generally not into this sort of stuff as you may notice. My one and only reason of being here is procrastination - so any topic would be fine, and challenges to a worldview is a perfect one - but perhaps I have missed an open end of a discussion Btw, I disagree on the conspiracy theorist part - because often it is exactly a challenge to a common worldview To properly challenge an orthodox worldview, one has to understand said worldview and be able to couch alternatives within it. And engage with folks who largely follow it. It’s 2024 however, so it becomes less interpretative and more ‘actually all those things you think happened and raised didn’t happen so I’m right’ But this trend is equally as prominent, if not more in the ‘critical thinkers’ than the ‘hey I’m not an expert I just watch the news’. People will dismiss folks out of hand if they’ve seen this rodeo enough hands, it’s not indicative of any lack of open-mindedness, just seeking other pastures where it may actually be found. Sure, Russian propaganda is a challenge to my worldview, but given that is transparently absolute bollocks it’s not an interesting, or valid challenge to my preconceptions. -can you be more substantive? Or has @jodljodl bitten you into speaking gibberish? Thats very simple: you state a claim or a question - I try to answer, and that's it. Btw, a challenge to you: find me at least one falsifiable statement (google if you don't know whats it) in the 3 previous posts, to make me think that your mental disability is not too severe
I was responding to your generalisation of what makes a ‘yes man’, which I think is perfectly valid as an archetype incidentally, with one of my own regarding ‘independent thinkers’ , quotation marks are there for a reason. Well, not strictly speaking my own but one I think tracks.
Perhaps you’re 100% correct here, I don’t know, I didn’t check, nor did I pass comment on whether you were or not.
To reject the orthodox, or unorthodox out of hand are two sides of the same coin was my generalistic observation, and that path frequently leads to being incorrect. We saw this pretty neatly illustrated in Covid times, and not to the betterment of discourse or understanding.
There’s no back-and-forth here to determine unpalatable truths or whatever, there’s maybe a post or two and you just say someone is blinded by propaganda or uneducated.
Does that fly in your particular field of academic study?
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Don't think we can be surprised at this point, but the incursion into Russia appears to have had a neonazi component.
Perhaps a someone who speaks French can verify the captions are accurate enough?
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Lol that’s awkward. The subs are on point. Don’t think that necessarily makes the Ukrainians any more nazi than the ss tattoos on that Wagner commander make the Russians nazi.
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On August 21 2024 04:03 Elroi wrote:
Lol that’s awkward. The subs are on point. Don’t think that necessarily makes the Ukrainians any more nazi than the ss tattoos on that Wagner commander make the Russians nazi.
I wouldn't say "the Ukrainians are Nazis" but Ukraine and the West certainly have a hard time keeping neonazis out of their pro-Ukrainian western propaganda.
It's not like there aren't neonazis in every military, but I can't think of another western military that would let them wear SS helmets, let alone send it out to be played on western news programs as pro-Ukrainian propaganda.
Gotta love that the reaction wasn't that the neonazis are problematic, but letting people see them is the problem. I agree with the panel that it is a terrible propaganda mistake, but I don't think that's really the main problem with unabashed neonazis spearheading your war efforts.
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Are you sure you're not making a hen out of a feather? What is the connection between Ukraine's army and the Nazis to begin with? Is there anything more substantial than the propaganda bid to make the Russians think of the great "victory" in WW2 rather than this embarrassing embroilment in Ukraine?
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United States43991 Posts
On August 21 2024 04:22 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2024 04:03 Elroi wrote:
Lol that’s awkward. The subs are on point. Don’t think that necessarily makes the Ukrainians any more nazi than the ss tattoos on that Wagner commander make the Russians nazi. I wouldn't say "the Ukrainians are Nazis" but Ukraine and the West certainly have a hard time keeping neonazis out of their pro-Ukrainian western propaganda. It's not like there aren't neonazis in every military, but I can't think of another western military that would let them wear SS helmets, let alone send it out to be played on western news programs as pro-Ukrainian propaganda. Gotta love that the reaction wasn't that the neonazis are problematic, but letting people see them is the problem. I agree with the panel that it is a terrible propaganda mistake, but I don't think that's really the main problem with unabashed neonazis spearheading your war efforts.
If your problem is Russians genociding Eastern Europeans then Nazis are a reasonable solution to introduce. Especially as it results in them getting shot too. Consider the inverse. Should we carefully protect the Nazis from harm so that they can inherit Ukraine after the sacrifice of their non Nazi countrymen? That would be a strange policy. If we can get two groups of fascists to shoot each other I think our policy should be to let them.
The Nazis also have a different cultural context in Ukraine too given that Nazi in Russian propaganda means anti Russian. It’s somewhat like Irish supporting the IRA. Sure, the IRA were obviously terrorists but I can see why they liked that people were attacking the British.
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Northern Ireland26811 Posts
On August 21 2024 04:22 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2024 04:03 Elroi wrote:
Lol that’s awkward. The subs are on point. Don’t think that necessarily makes the Ukrainians any more nazi than the ss tattoos on that Wagner commander make the Russians nazi. I wouldn't say "the Ukrainians are Nazis" but Ukraine and the West certainly have a hard time keeping neonazis out of their pro-Ukrainian western propaganda. It's not like there aren't neonazis in every military, but I can't think of another western military that would let them wear SS helmets, let alone send it out to be played on western news programs as pro-Ukrainian propaganda. Gotta love that the reaction wasn't that the neonazis are problematic, but letting people see them is the problem. I agree with the panel that it is a terrible propaganda mistake, but I don't think that's really the main problem with unabashed neonazis spearheading your war efforts.
Are Neo-Nazis problematic? Sure
Are they problematic enough that one thinks a country should be subsumed by another, with its own hardcore nationalist problem?
Welcome to the Balkan conflicts, which oddly enough people criticising the West for intervening in Ukraine for not being hard enough and tolerating hardcore nationalism, are critical of the West for intervening in conflicts of hardcore nationalism in the mid-90s and onwards.
Make it make sense
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On August 21 2024 05:23 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2024 04:22 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 21 2024 04:03 Elroi wrote:
Lol that’s awkward. The subs are on point. Don’t think that necessarily makes the Ukrainians any more nazi than the ss tattoos on that Wagner commander make the Russians nazi. I wouldn't say "the Ukrainians are Nazis" but Ukraine and the West certainly have a hard time keeping neonazis out of their pro-Ukrainian western propaganda. It's not like there aren't neonazis in every military, but I can't think of another western military that would let them wear SS helmets, let alone send it out to be played on western news programs as pro-Ukrainian propaganda. Gotta love that the reaction wasn't that the neonazis are problematic, but letting people see them is the problem. I agree with the panel that it is a terrible propaganda mistake, but I don't think that's really the main problem with unabashed neonazis spearheading your war efforts. If your problem is Russians genociding Eastern Europeans then Nazis are a reasonable solution to introduce. + Show Spoiler +Especially as it results in them getting shot too. Consider the inverse. Should we carefully protect the Nazis from harm so that they can inherit Ukraine after the sacrifice of their non Nazi countrymen? That would be a strange policy. If we can get two groups of fascists to shoot each other I think our policy should be to let them.
The Nazis also have a different cultural context in Ukraine too given that Nazi in Russian propaganda means anti Russian. It’s somewhat like Irish supporting the IRA. Sure, the IRA were obviously terrorists but I can see why they liked that people were attacking the British.
Ukraine already has an issue with turning Nazis into heroes, doubt this helps.
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United States43991 Posts
On August 21 2024 05:46 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2024 05:23 KwarK wrote:On August 21 2024 04:22 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 21 2024 04:03 Elroi wrote:
Lol that’s awkward. The subs are on point. Don’t think that necessarily makes the Ukrainians any more nazi than the ss tattoos on that Wagner commander make the Russians nazi. I wouldn't say "the Ukrainians are Nazis" but Ukraine and the West certainly have a hard time keeping neonazis out of their pro-Ukrainian western propaganda. It's not like there aren't neonazis in every military, but I can't think of another western military that would let them wear SS helmets, let alone send it out to be played on western news programs as pro-Ukrainian propaganda. Gotta love that the reaction wasn't that the neonazis are problematic, but letting people see them is the problem. I agree with the panel that it is a terrible propaganda mistake, but I don't think that's really the main problem with unabashed neonazis spearheading your war efforts. If your problem is Russians genociding Eastern Europeans then Nazis are a reasonable solution to introduce. + Show Spoiler +Especially as it results in them getting shot too. Consider the inverse. Should we carefully protect the Nazis from harm so that they can inherit Ukraine after the sacrifice of their non Nazi countrymen? That would be a strange policy. If we can get two groups of fascists to shoot each other I think our policy should be to let them.
The Nazis also have a different cultural context in Ukraine too given that Nazi in Russian propaganda means anti Russian. It’s somewhat like Irish supporting the IRA. Sure, the IRA were obviously terrorists but I can see why they liked that people were attacking the British. Ukraine already has an issue with turning Nazis into heroes, doubt this helps.
As long as they’re dead at the end of it who cares. We can whitewash their legacy and erase their ideology. Full MLK treatment where nobody remembers what he actually stood for.
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I'm very surprised that Russians are surprised that extremist nationalist are on the front line to fight for their country... We are not blind to the irony that Nazi Russia is getting ass kicked by Nazi Ukraine...
The main issue in Russia is that the Nazi's are in power, not on front line. It's like an self-fulfilling prophecy. Attack country, make everyone mad... "oh see how much they hate us, we told you!!" ... Yeah no shit, you have been massacring them for 2 years.
Fuck Nazis.
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I've been following this thread since the beginning of the war. It was one of my more reliable news sources because people from all sides of the conflict shared their information, experiences, views. Those views were biased by media, sure, but biased from both sides still gave me a good hunch of what was going on.
No longer so, sadly. The thread slowly spiraled into a clash of echo chambers. I no longer believe anyone is able to convince people like zeo or a_ch when it comes to any western point of view. And vice versa, I no longer believe that anyone would be listening if zeo or a_ch would actually make a valid point.
So I'm out. This thread no longer delivers what it used to. Shoutout to Ardias for providing the Russia point of view during the early days, and to all the others that chipped in.
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On August 20 2024 23:47 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2024 22:51 KwarK wrote:On August 20 2024 22:41 zeo wrote:On August 20 2024 22:31 KwarK wrote:On August 20 2024 22:21 zeo wrote:On August 20 2024 21:48 KwarK wrote:
I think it’s useful to have a Russian around so that we can remember why we need to keep sending Ukraine weapons. Though he may not personally receive a delivery of 180,000 tungsten balls he is representative of a popular attitude in Russia. It’s a problem best treated with tungsten. When sufficient tungsten has been delivered to the necessary recipients we may have peace with the more reasonable Russians. To the last Ukrainian! They’d fight on with sticks if all they had was sticks. They know what it is like to live under Russian rule. If they’d rather fight to the last Ukrainian than live under Russian rule then that is their right. I do see why the dignity in their struggle is alien to you though. In any event, they don’t have to fight with sticks. If they want to come for the land and the homes of the Donbass and Crimean people with sticks or whatever you want to give them then keep pushing them to do just that. Maybe when the sufficient amount have been sent we may have peace with the more reasonable Kievites left. The Donbas was at peace until Russia invaded it. Ukraine was at peace until the Obama administration sought to overthrow the democratically elected president of Ukraine in a violent coup spearheaded by neonazis thugs. The resulting kakistocracy in Kiev tore the country apart by actively and violently suppressing the 50% of the country that didn't accept the illegal coup. Crimea and the Donbass rightly took it upon themselves to bring back the rule of law from the new illegitimate government in Kiev. The peace ended when Avakov acting as the interior minister in April 2014 declared his 48h anti-terrorist operation. Well, its been almost 3800 days since then so things didn't really turn out how the unelected government planned
Zelensky was making comedy shows in 2014, what are you even talking about? He was elected by 90% of Donbass voters on the Ukrainian side (the Russian side of Donbass didn't vote in the Ukrainian election)
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Finland963 Posts
On August 21 2024 16:49 _fool wrote:
No longer so, sadly. The thread slowly spiraled into a clash of echo chambers. I no longer believe anyone is able to convince people like zeo or a_ch when it comes to any western point of view. And vice versa, I no longer believe that anyone would be listening if zeo or a_ch would actually make a valid point.
a_ch did point out that he's not posting in good faith, so not sure how much one should expect a valid point from him.
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On August 21 2024 02:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
Don't think we can be surprised at this point, but the incursion into Russia appears to have had a neonazi component.
Perhaps a someone who speaks French can verify the captions are accurate enough?
Captions are fine overall, twitter text going with the video not so much.
The tweet seems to indicate that the journalists are embarassed because the video contradicts a communication strategy the network is trying to push and would like such a video to be vetted to avoid it. This is at the very least an over interpretation.
LCI is a 24/7 news channel and the journalists are likely seeing the images for the first time. The vetting process referenced means the video shown was reviewed by their teams and is therefore unlikely to be Russian propaganda. The "communication strategy" remark states that the soldier (by displaying the helmet) and his hierarchy (by allowing it) act against the official Ukrainian communication strategy.
Of course, there is still some truth to the remark. Any news outlet will try to build and push a coherent narrative and would very much like the facts to fit that narrative. Problems start when they bend the facts to maintain a narrative they know or believe to be incorrect, which is not the case here (if anything, the network team may have knowingly selected that video for the broadcast).
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EPT
