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Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 569

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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
Zaros
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom3692 Posts
August 30 2023 12:04 GMT
#11361
Falklands war?

Argentina invaded British territory in 1982.

I don’t think terror attacks from AQ count because there is no state to threaten with the nukes.
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17431 Posts
August 30 2023 12:04 GMT
#11362
A cool little tidbit:


A linguistic fact. Why do Ukrainians call explosions in Russia “bavovna” or “cotton”?

That’s because Russians, in their twisted language started to call the explosions on the land controlled by them “хлопки” (claps), not to use the word “взрыв” (explosion). This way, they have no explosions in Russia, just claps. Another attempt to change reality with wording.

Then, some of them were dumb enough to use google translate for speeding their propaganda in Ukraine. The problem is that “хлопок” in Russian also means “cotton”, if you put stress on the first syllable. So it was machine-translated as “bavovna”, which is “cotton” in Ukrainian.

Ukrainians decided to use this “bavovna” to mock Russian propaganda, and now you may see this word in the news every day when something explodes on the Russia-controlled territory. We already have jokes, poetry and even songs about "bavovna". Also, we have cartoons and soft children toys called "bavovniatko" (little babovna), a softy cotton creature that likes having fun on Russian military bases.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15355 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-08-30 12:39:06
August 30 2023 12:36 GMT
#11363
Six-Day-War, Yom Kippur War, First Gulf War, Falkland War, anything happening in Kashmir or between Vietnam and China ... pretty sure it's a long list.
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15723 Posts
August 30 2023 13:43 GMT
#11364
I don’t think those are quite comparable. This is a lot more of a blatant military attack on the mainland.

It’s not like Ukraine leveled a city, but this feels like a lot more significant of an attack than what others have listed so far. The symbolism and damage to reputation from this is way bigger than these other events people are talking about.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-08-30 13:48:10
August 30 2023 13:43 GMT
#11365
WSJ just did a piece on the Ukraine's sniper teams and it is insane. NINE days in no mans land, how tf do they eat or drink water since nobody can approach them etc. Then after all that they have to sneak back to their lines without being caught. Whether it is by soldiers, or even drones.

+ Show Spoiler +
HRODIVKA, Ukraine—The war in Ukraine is a meat grinder of artillery, missiles and deadly minefields. Running silently aside all that is a test of battlefield marksmanship for snipers pursuing the fight one shot at a time.

Around 15 miles from the front line, near Bakhmut, three Ukrainian snipers recently emerged unseen from undergrowth. Their team, which calls itself “Devils and Angels,” is on orders to kill Russian senior commanders, critical members of artillery teams and other high-profile targets.

The war in Ukraine is rich territory for snipers, reminiscent of World War I, with its long and largely static firing line across a flat landscape. The snipers training near Bakhmut are top shots, but they were honing a skill even more important for snipers: stealth.

“We work quietly, we are invisible,” said a team member whose call sign is Fisher.

As Kyiv looks to tip the balance in its continuing counteroffensive, the role of the sniper is evolving. Russian mines make a sniper’s trips into no man’s land more treacherous, while drones make it harder for them to hide. Training snipers also takes weeks that Ukraine doesn’t have to spare.

In response, Ukraine—like militaries in the West—is adding more sharpshooters with less technical training than elite snipers to back up ordinary infantry troops with precise targeting.

“Sniper shooting can’t win the war on its own, but one good shot can change a situation at a particular moment on a particular line,” said Ruslan Shpakovych, a former Ukrainian special forces sniper now training soldiers for the role.

Stealth is vital in part because snipers do more than just killing targets from a distance. They conduct reconnaissance and, when shooting, their goal is to shock and demoralize enemy troops, sowing disorganization—an enemy of any military.

“If you’re assembling to attack and your lieutenant is picked off, the unit goes into disarray,” said retired Army Major General Robert Scales, a military historian who served as commandant of the U.S. Army War College.

Russia’s army is dependent on officers for leadership because it doesn’t have a corps of noncommissioned officers, or soldiers who rose through the ranks to leadership positions, as in Western militaries and, increasingly, in Ukraine. Russian officers can often be identified from afar by their uniforms and even their boots.

“When you kill a Russian small-unit leader, you completely discombobulate the unit,” said Scales.

The Soviet Union often elevated its snipers to hero status. Ukrainian-born Lyudmila Pavlichenko was nicknamed “Lady Death” by Soviet authorities for her high kill rate in World War II. Another sniper, Vasily Zaitsev, won some of the Soviet Union’s highest honors during the Battle of Stalingrad.

Even now, Russian media and official channels laud individual snipers in Ukraine.

Urban warfare, such as Stalingrad and Bakhmut, is perfect for snipers.

“But snipers also become much more important when the front lines stabilize, as they have for the last many months in Ukraine,” said Mark Cancian, an adviser with the International Security Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

“Stable front lines allow snipers to develop good ‘hides’ and fields of fire,” he said.

Modern sniping developed among German and British troops along the static trench lines of World War I. Similar trenches now line the Ukraine front, and just like a century ago, soldiers rising above their security can get killed by snipers.

Ukraine’s terrain of fields and gently rolling hills, offering clear vistas, is “a sniper’s paradise,” said Scales.

Snipers generally work in teams of two, with one typically serving as a spotter, calculating distance, wind speed and other variables that can affect a shot. When one sleeps, the other watches.

Trips into no man’s land can last for as long as nine days, though more typically are around a day and a half, during which snipers are cut off from their unit, said members of the Devils and Angels. Infantry units support them from afar, providing cover fire if needed. Snipers feed crucial front-line intelligence back to commanders.

No enemy sneak attack should get past a trained sniper squad or shooter out front, “because they can spot it coming and they can shoot at it and correct artillery toward it,” said Shpakovych, who trains snipers for “Come Back Alive,” a Ukrainian charity that raises money to train and equip local forces.

A sniper with the call sign Cuckoo, who once spent three days lying in wait, said that in the field she only thinks of the moment, not life back home.

“I am thinking, ‘There is not enough water, there is too much dust, when I am going to have my next shower,’ ” said Cuckoo, whose handle was first used by Finnish snipers fighting Soviet troops in 1939, for the bird’s ability to disguise itself. “You are disconnected from your personal life.”

A reporter before Russia’s large-scale invasion last year, the 32-year-old is currently fighting with the 47th Brigade in Zaporizhzhia. That part of the front line has seen some of the fiercest battles of a counteroffensive that has become bogged down by Russian mines, fortifications and helicopter attacks.

A combination of those obstacles—which impede snipers’ advances—and the time needed to train crack snipers has prompted Kyiv to deploy a type increasingly used by the U.S.: top shots who move alongside ordinary infantry, often carrying higher-powered rifles, to pick off more distant targets.

Cuckoo said she would be doing that to support an infantry squad.

“Helicopters are firing, artillery is hitting your lines, Russians that were hiding just minutes before are suddenly moving,” she said. “You hit what you can see.”

Sharpshooters have proved particularly helpful in fighting over the contested city of Bakhmut. In close combat there, they helped repel relentless waves of advancing troops from Russia’s Wagner militia, said Andriy Chernyak, an official in the HUR, Ukrainian military intelligence. At such short range, artillery risks hitting Ukrainian soldiers, he said.

Shpakovych says that snipers are being used to varying success in Ukraine, depending on the unit. Ukraine only began properly training their snipers in 2013 and it takes several years and a lot of sophisticated equipment to make a good one, he said.

Russia has more and better equipped snipers, Shpakovych said. He and the Devils and Angels shooters hold Russian snipers’ skills in high regard.

In November, Ukrainian armed forces said that one of their Special Forces snipers shot and killed “an occupier” at a distance of 8,900 feet, which they said is the second longest shot recorded. The Canadian military in 2017 said a member of its Special Forces in Iraq shot and killed somebody at 11,600 feet, or more than 2 miles.

Sharpshooters training for the Devils and Angels, attached to the 115th Brigade, were selected after surviving several tough battles. Snipers say that their skill set is considered among the hardest infantry roles to perfect. Training courses typically have a high failure rate, according to former snipers.

Ukraine’s initial sniper training course lasts a month and a half. The comparable U.S. Army initiation at Sniper School in Fort Benning, Ga., takes seven weeks.

Fisher was told he was picked out because he had been a hunter in his native Crimea, shooting rabbits, pheasants and deer. The two other snipers say they don’t know why they were chosen. One of the squad was a professional magician, who still loves to practice disappearing tricks with cards and cigarettes on the rest of the team.

“You can train to shoot well, but psychologically you have to be calm,” which you cannot learn, said a private whose call name is Beard.

Patience and stealth are vital. At the Ukrainian training ground, snipers disappeared into scrubland and were told to hide within a radius of 15 meters. The instructor wandered around trying—and failing—to find them, while a drone hovered above, seeking the men.

Eventually the drone spotted Beard, who emerged, angry at being discovered, with every part of his body and weapon draped in camouflage.

Sniping also requires a particular psychological profile. While most soldiers go into battle knowing that they may be forced to shoot and kill, they don’t always set out to take lives. Rather than killing, they might force a retreat or surrender, or just wound enemy soldiers. Many soldiers can go days or weeks without encountering opponents—and may never see an enemy’s face.

Snipers, in contrast, always head out seeking to kill enemy soldiers whom they can clearly see, and generally have little doubt if they have taken a life.

The three snipers in training said they have killed before, though declined to say how many times. Cuckoo also declined to say how many she had killed but said she wants to kill more.

None of the snipers feel much empathy for their targets after pulling the trigger. Many have lost close comrades. Of the original 26-member Devils and Angels team, only 14 are left. One sniper and one infantry support member were killed, and the rest were injured.

“I don’t see their faces, the emotions on them, the photos of their wives, or anything else about their lives,” said Cuckoo.

“I just see figures that move, and I shoot,” she said.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Excludos
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway8160 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-08-30 15:07:12
August 30 2023 15:06 GMT
#11366
On August 30 2023 22:43 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
WSJ just did a piece on the Ukraine's sniper teams and it is insane. NINE days in no mans land, how tf do they eat or drink water since nobody can approach them etc. Then after all that they have to sneak back to their lines without being caught. Whether it is by soldiers, or even drones.

+ Show Spoiler +
HRODIVKA, Ukraine—The war in Ukraine is a meat grinder of artillery, missiles and deadly minefields. Running silently aside all that is a test of battlefield marksmanship for snipers pursuing the fight one shot at a time.

Around 15 miles from the front line, near Bakhmut, three Ukrainian snipers recently emerged unseen from undergrowth. Their team, which calls itself “Devils and Angels,” is on orders to kill Russian senior commanders, critical members of artillery teams and other high-profile targets.

The war in Ukraine is rich territory for snipers, reminiscent of World War I, with its long and largely static firing line across a flat landscape. The snipers training near Bakhmut are top shots, but they were honing a skill even more important for snipers: stealth.

“We work quietly, we are invisible,” said a team member whose call sign is Fisher.

As Kyiv looks to tip the balance in its continuing counteroffensive, the role of the sniper is evolving. Russian mines make a sniper’s trips into no man’s land more treacherous, while drones make it harder for them to hide. Training snipers also takes weeks that Ukraine doesn’t have to spare.

In response, Ukraine—like militaries in the West—is adding more sharpshooters with less technical training than elite snipers to back up ordinary infantry troops with precise targeting.

“Sniper shooting can’t win the war on its own, but one good shot can change a situation at a particular moment on a particular line,” said Ruslan Shpakovych, a former Ukrainian special forces sniper now training soldiers for the role.

Stealth is vital in part because snipers do more than just killing targets from a distance. They conduct reconnaissance and, when shooting, their goal is to shock and demoralize enemy troops, sowing disorganization—an enemy of any military.

“If you’re assembling to attack and your lieutenant is picked off, the unit goes into disarray,” said retired Army Major General Robert Scales, a military historian who served as commandant of the U.S. Army War College.

Russia’s army is dependent on officers for leadership because it doesn’t have a corps of noncommissioned officers, or soldiers who rose through the ranks to leadership positions, as in Western militaries and, increasingly, in Ukraine. Russian officers can often be identified from afar by their uniforms and even their boots.

“When you kill a Russian small-unit leader, you completely discombobulate the unit,” said Scales.

The Soviet Union often elevated its snipers to hero status. Ukrainian-born Lyudmila Pavlichenko was nicknamed “Lady Death” by Soviet authorities for her high kill rate in World War II. Another sniper, Vasily Zaitsev, won some of the Soviet Union’s highest honors during the Battle of Stalingrad.

Even now, Russian media and official channels laud individual snipers in Ukraine.

Urban warfare, such as Stalingrad and Bakhmut, is perfect for snipers.

“But snipers also become much more important when the front lines stabilize, as they have for the last many months in Ukraine,” said Mark Cancian, an adviser with the International Security Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

“Stable front lines allow snipers to develop good ‘hides’ and fields of fire,” he said.

Modern sniping developed among German and British troops along the static trench lines of World War I. Similar trenches now line the Ukraine front, and just like a century ago, soldiers rising above their security can get killed by snipers.

Ukraine’s terrain of fields and gently rolling hills, offering clear vistas, is “a sniper’s paradise,” said Scales.

Snipers generally work in teams of two, with one typically serving as a spotter, calculating distance, wind speed and other variables that can affect a shot. When one sleeps, the other watches.

Trips into no man’s land can last for as long as nine days, though more typically are around a day and a half, during which snipers are cut off from their unit, said members of the Devils and Angels. Infantry units support them from afar, providing cover fire if needed. Snipers feed crucial front-line intelligence back to commanders.

No enemy sneak attack should get past a trained sniper squad or shooter out front, “because they can spot it coming and they can shoot at it and correct artillery toward it,” said Shpakovych, who trains snipers for “Come Back Alive,” a Ukrainian charity that raises money to train and equip local forces.

A sniper with the call sign Cuckoo, who once spent three days lying in wait, said that in the field she only thinks of the moment, not life back home.

“I am thinking, ‘There is not enough water, there is too much dust, when I am going to have my next shower,’ ” said Cuckoo, whose handle was first used by Finnish snipers fighting Soviet troops in 1939, for the bird’s ability to disguise itself. “You are disconnected from your personal life.”

A reporter before Russia’s large-scale invasion last year, the 32-year-old is currently fighting with the 47th Brigade in Zaporizhzhia. That part of the front line has seen some of the fiercest battles of a counteroffensive that has become bogged down by Russian mines, fortifications and helicopter attacks.

A combination of those obstacles—which impede snipers’ advances—and the time needed to train crack snipers has prompted Kyiv to deploy a type increasingly used by the U.S.: top shots who move alongside ordinary infantry, often carrying higher-powered rifles, to pick off more distant targets.

Cuckoo said she would be doing that to support an infantry squad.

“Helicopters are firing, artillery is hitting your lines, Russians that were hiding just minutes before are suddenly moving,” she said. “You hit what you can see.”

Sharpshooters have proved particularly helpful in fighting over the contested city of Bakhmut. In close combat there, they helped repel relentless waves of advancing troops from Russia’s Wagner militia, said Andriy Chernyak, an official in the HUR, Ukrainian military intelligence. At such short range, artillery risks hitting Ukrainian soldiers, he said.

Shpakovych says that snipers are being used to varying success in Ukraine, depending on the unit. Ukraine only began properly training their snipers in 2013 and it takes several years and a lot of sophisticated equipment to make a good one, he said.

Russia has more and better equipped snipers, Shpakovych said. He and the Devils and Angels shooters hold Russian snipers’ skills in high regard.

In November, Ukrainian armed forces said that one of their Special Forces snipers shot and killed “an occupier” at a distance of 8,900 feet, which they said is the second longest shot recorded. The Canadian military in 2017 said a member of its Special Forces in Iraq shot and killed somebody at 11,600 feet, or more than 2 miles.

Sharpshooters training for the Devils and Angels, attached to the 115th Brigade, were selected after surviving several tough battles. Snipers say that their skill set is considered among the hardest infantry roles to perfect. Training courses typically have a high failure rate, according to former snipers.

Ukraine’s initial sniper training course lasts a month and a half. The comparable U.S. Army initiation at Sniper School in Fort Benning, Ga., takes seven weeks.

Fisher was told he was picked out because he had been a hunter in his native Crimea, shooting rabbits, pheasants and deer. The two other snipers say they don’t know why they were chosen. One of the squad was a professional magician, who still loves to practice disappearing tricks with cards and cigarettes on the rest of the team.

“You can train to shoot well, but psychologically you have to be calm,” which you cannot learn, said a private whose call name is Beard.

Patience and stealth are vital. At the Ukrainian training ground, snipers disappeared into scrubland and were told to hide within a radius of 15 meters. The instructor wandered around trying—and failing—to find them, while a drone hovered above, seeking the men.

Eventually the drone spotted Beard, who emerged, angry at being discovered, with every part of his body and weapon draped in camouflage.

Sniping also requires a particular psychological profile. While most soldiers go into battle knowing that they may be forced to shoot and kill, they don’t always set out to take lives. Rather than killing, they might force a retreat or surrender, or just wound enemy soldiers. Many soldiers can go days or weeks without encountering opponents—and may never see an enemy’s face.

Snipers, in contrast, always head out seeking to kill enemy soldiers whom they can clearly see, and generally have little doubt if they have taken a life.

The three snipers in training said they have killed before, though declined to say how many times. Cuckoo also declined to say how many she had killed but said she wants to kill more.

None of the snipers feel much empathy for their targets after pulling the trigger. Many have lost close comrades. Of the original 26-member Devils and Angels team, only 14 are left. One sniper and one infantry support member were killed, and the rest were injured.

“I don’t see their faces, the emotions on them, the photos of their wives, or anything else about their lives,” said Cuckoo.

“I just see figures that move, and I shoot,” she said.


Source


There's a whole subject field on how to supply troops behind enemy lines. I would assume dead drops from previous trips would be popular here. Altough admittedly, for 9 days, you can carry it with you. That backpack weight is going to suck, as you'll be carrying 40+kg of water alone, but it can be done.

I have a book where a FSK soldier described what he had to carry with him for a week long recon OP in Afghanistan, and that backpack ended up over 100+ kilos, mostly from all the water they had to carry for the heat. The Navy Seals that were with them were apparently breathing hard from the climb up the mountain, but no one whined a word.

My personal heaviest backpack have only been 60kg, and I was contemplating just eating a bullet after a few kilometres.
pmp10
Profile Joined April 2012
3354 Posts
September 01 2023 17:34 GMT
#11367
A good article on the current position of the west:
As Ukraine’s Fight Grinds On, Talk of Negotiations Becomes Nearly Taboo
“There is a broad and increasingly widespread sense that what we’re doing now isn’t working, but not much of an idea of what to do next, and not a big openness to discuss it, which is how you come up with one,” he said. “The lack of success hasn’t opened up the political space for an open discussion of alternatives.”

“We’re a bit stuck,” he said.

For now it's clueless where to go from here.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21952 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-09-01 17:49:27
September 01 2023 17:49 GMT
#11368
What is there to talk about? the response to a hostile invader is to kick them out, not talk about how much of your stuff they get to keep while they prepare to take the rest.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43219 Posts
September 01 2023 18:42 GMT
#11369
On September 02 2023 02:34 pmp10 wrote:
A good article on the current position of the west:
As Ukraine’s Fight Grinds On, Talk of Negotiations Becomes Nearly Taboo
Show nested quote +
“There is a broad and increasingly widespread sense that what we’re doing now isn’t working, but not much of an idea of what to do next, and not a big openness to discuss it, which is how you come up with one,” he said. “The lack of success hasn’t opened up the political space for an open discussion of alternatives.”

“We’re a bit stuck,” he said.

For now it's clueless where to go from here.

The west isn’t in this war. It’s taboo because it violates the basic principle of sovereignty. It’s not up to the west to decide this for Ukraine, no more than it would be for the police to decide the best course of action for an abused woman. That basic fact is what Russia fails to understand here. This is about what Ukraine wants and nobody else can make that decision for them.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
maybenexttime
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Poland5656 Posts
September 01 2023 18:55 GMT
#11370
On September 02 2023 02:34 pmp10 wrote:
A good article on the current position of the west:
As Ukraine’s Fight Grinds On, Talk of Negotiations Becomes Nearly Taboo
Show nested quote +
“There is a broad and increasingly widespread sense that what we’re doing now isn’t working, but not much of an idea of what to do next, and not a big openness to discuss it, which is how you come up with one,” he said. “The lack of success hasn’t opened up the political space for an open discussion of alternatives.”

“We’re a bit stuck,” he said.

For now it's clueless where to go from here.

Ukraine's MFA Dmytro Kuleba put it very succinctly: Prigozhin had a conflict with Putin, he held successful negotiations with Putin, ended this conflict, agreed on security guarantees. And then Putin killed him.

What's the point of negotiating with a fascist thug?
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9245 Posts
September 01 2023 19:09 GMT
#11371
I think we don't have to worry about anyone important pushing Ukraine to the negotiating table unitl at least 2024 winter. The West committed a lot of resources and political will to help Ukraine win this conflict. It wouldn't make sense to suddenly change tone and try to convince them to give up some land. It's a long term investment. Ukrainian fighting spirit seems strong as well so I doubt they'd be the first to push for cease fire.

They're supposed to get F-16s and Abrams tanks this or the next year, why would you want them to stop fighting a few months after receiving that kind of equipment?
You're now breathing manually
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4478 Posts
September 01 2023 19:21 GMT
#11372
If Ukraine progresses in Zaporizhzhia at the current rate, even without accomplishing a major breakthrough, the Russian forces would be all but hugging the Black Sea within the next two years. So quite clearly there will be no negotiations. Ukraine is going to reclaim that whole oblast and probably a lot more before any talks will even be considered.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21952 Posts
September 01 2023 19:29 GMT
#11373
On September 02 2023 04:09 Sent. wrote:
I think we don't have to worry about anyone important pushing Ukraine to the negotiating table unitl at least 2024 winter. The West committed a lot of resources and political will to help Ukraine win this conflict. It wouldn't make sense to suddenly change tone and try to convince them to give up some land. It's a long term investment. Ukrainian fighting spirit seems strong as well so I doubt they'd be the first to push for cease fire.

They're supposed to get F-16s and Abrams tanks this or the next year, why would you want them to stop fighting a few months after receiving that kind of equipment?
F-16's are, from what I read, not going to be until summer 2024 because the training of pilots will take a long time with several months of English lessons just to get the necessary vocabulary and understanding of technical terms to be able to actually be taught to fly the plane.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/08/11/f-16-fighters-ukraine-training-delays/
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
CuddlyCuteKitten
Profile Joined January 2004
Sweden2649 Posts
September 01 2023 19:49 GMT
#11374
It appears Sweden has sent biological weapons to Ukraine.

Fortunately for the Russians they managed to activate it themselves. Still, a serious escalation.

www.reddit.com

+ Show Spoiler +
Who the fuck gets the splendid idea to send "surströmming" (fermented herring) in an aid package. :D
waaaaaaaaaaaooooow - Felicia, SPF2:T
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15723 Posts
September 02 2023 01:37 GMT
#11375
On September 02 2023 04:09 Sent. wrote:
I think we don't have to worry about anyone important pushing Ukraine to the negotiating table unitl at least 2024 winter. The West committed a lot of resources and political will to help Ukraine win this conflict. It wouldn't make sense to suddenly change tone and try to convince them to give up some land. It's a long term investment. Ukrainian fighting spirit seems strong as well so I doubt they'd be the first to push for cease fire.

They're supposed to get F-16s and Abrams tanks this or the next year, why would you want them to stop fighting a few months after receiving that kind of equipment?


tbh the main thing, IMO, is that this is informally a flex competition between Russia and the US. The US would lose such an unfathomable amount of global influence if they were to give up on Ukraine. It would empower Russia to basically do anything, and prevent the US from wielding any power whatsoever without direct boots on the ground conflict.
StasisField
Profile Joined August 2013
United States1086 Posts
September 02 2023 04:54 GMT
#11376
On September 02 2023 10:37 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 02 2023 04:09 Sent. wrote:
I think we don't have to worry about anyone important pushing Ukraine to the negotiating table unitl at least 2024 winter. The West committed a lot of resources and political will to help Ukraine win this conflict. It wouldn't make sense to suddenly change tone and try to convince them to give up some land. It's a long term investment. Ukrainian fighting spirit seems strong as well so I doubt they'd be the first to push for cease fire.

They're supposed to get F-16s and Abrams tanks this or the next year, why would you want them to stop fighting a few months after receiving that kind of equipment?


tbh the main thing, IMO, is that this is informally a flex competition between Russia and the US. The US would lose such an unfathomable amount of global influence if they were to give up on Ukraine. It would empower Russia to basically do anything, and prevent the US from wielding any power whatsoever without direct boots on the ground conflict.

Have we been watching the same war? Geopolitically, Russia has already lost. Even if they end up taking every inch of Ukrainian land, they have already lost. NATO expanded, EU is waning off of Russian gas, the Russian economy isn't doing well, Russia is using up its old stockpiles, etc. Russia has already failed to achieve its wider geopolitical goals. The only thing Russia can hope to do is claim some land to save face and sell a victory at home.
What do you mean Immortals can't shoot up?
pmp10
Profile Joined April 2012
3354 Posts
September 02 2023 05:04 GMT
#11377
On September 02 2023 02:49 Gorsameth wrote:
What is there to talk about? the response to a hostile invader is to kick them out, not talk about how much of your stuff they get to keep while they prepare to take the rest.

In that case the west should talk about how they will help kicking-out happen.
Avoiding discussion is a good sing they fear any talk will slowly lead to surrender by degree.
0x64
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Finland4582 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-09-02 08:45:44
September 02 2023 08:45 GMT
#11378
On September 02 2023 14:04 pmp10 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 02 2023 02:49 Gorsameth wrote:
What is there to talk about? the response to a hostile invader is to kick them out, not talk about how much of your stuff they get to keep while they prepare to take the rest.

In that case the west should talk about how they will help kicking-out happen.
Avoiding discussion is a good sing they fear any talk will slowly lead to surrender by degree.


What do they fear exactly? (Beside good singing)
Dump of assembler code from 0xffffffec to 0x64: End of assembler dump.
pmp10
Profile Joined April 2012
3354 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-09-02 09:40:14
September 02 2023 09:40 GMT
#11379
Slippery slope towards effective surrender.
If you start the discussion you cannot be sure were it will end.
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4478 Posts
September 02 2023 09:53 GMT
#11380
On September 02 2023 18:40 pmp10 wrote:
Slippery slope towards effective surrender.
If you start the discussion you cannot be sure were it will end.


Kyiv HAS offered to talk many times in early 2022. Putin used every single one of these opportunities to attempt to gain tactical advantages on the battlefield. He didn't engage in any talks whatsoever. He is the one who's not interested in negotiations, he's interested only in total surrender by Kyiv. When are you finally going to accept this reality and stop pretending there's an alternative as long as Putin is in power?
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
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