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On August 12 2023 16:57 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 10:43 Manit0u wrote:I kinda feel like I'm reading The Black Monday Murders again 
THE BLACK MONDAY MURDERS is classic occultism where the various schools of magic are actually clandestine banking cartels who control all of society: a secret world where vampire Russian oligarchs, Black popes, enchanted American aristocrats, and hitmen from the International Monetary Fund work together to keep ALL OF US in our proper place.
https://imagecomics.com/comics/series/the-black-monday-murdersReally good stuff  -omg) Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 15:22 0x64 wrote:
Ardias, A_ch? What's your view about those new class in the Russian school system. What are the goals, what are the consequences you expect? - Hard to say. From the government perspective it is a logical thing to do, as the youth here is generally the most pro-western. On the other hand, I can easily imagine these classes being cringe af, and only make things worse. -yeah, the pot calling the kettle black, https://ctc.westpoint.edu/polands-evolving-violent-far-right-landscape/
Yes, because, clearly, having neo-Nazi concerts or someone physically attack an LGBT person during a pride parade is even remotely comparable to having public officials invite violent neo-Nazis to teach children how to kill or Russian neo-Nazis going on a war crime rampage in Ukraine. Let's not forget that your country is literally run by fascists.
I also have to question the quality of the research behind that article. The fact that it linked the murder of Gdansk's mayor to far-right shows that it was rather poor. There is zero connection, as far as I know. The murderer was a mentally unstable felon who blamed the previous ruling party for his prison sentence. He was convicted for a number of armed robberies, with solid evidence, yet he deluded himself into thinking he was somehow innocent. The author is grasping at straws by calling it an "assassination". As if someone ordered a hit. A few years before his release, the perpetrator was diagnosed with paranoidal schizophrenia and developed a strong victim complex. When he was released, he lashed out. That looks very familiar, by the way. ;-)
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On August 12 2023 17:45 maybenexttime wrote:
Yes, because, clearly, having neo-Nazi concerts or someone physically attack an LGBT person during a pride parade is even remotely comparable to having public officials invite violent neo-Nazis to teach children how to kill or Russian neo-Nazis going on a war crime rampage in Ukraine. Let's not forget that your country is literally run by fascists.
-if I'd believe the part on the fascists to be true, I'd be long gone from Russia, as my family has places to live in Israel and Germany, and its not hard for a math PhD to get a well-paid job there. All the other is a "you have more nazis - no you have more nazis" thing. I don't know, how to do the comparisons; at least our nazis do not kill city mayors
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I couldn't care less if you believe it. Your neo-Nazis only kill, torture and rape countless innocent Ukrainians. As I explained, the guy mentioned in the article has no links to far-right. Are you pretending to be this stupid?
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On August 12 2023 18:10 maybenexttime wrote:
I couldn't care less if you believe it. Your neo-Nazis only kill, torture and rape countless innocent Ukrainians. As I explained, the guy mentioned in the article has no links to far-right. Are you pretending to be this stupid?
It is your word versus some West Point academician, so unless you provide some evidence, the comparison is not in your favor.
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Johnny: "Your government oppresses people."
Sergey: "Nu-uh, I saw a thief break into a house in your city."
Totally the same thing.
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On August 12 2023 18:28 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 18:10 maybenexttime wrote:
I couldn't care less if you believe it. Your neo-Nazis only kill, torture and rape countless innocent Ukrainians. As I explained, the guy mentioned in the article has no links to far-right. Are you pretending to be this stupid? It is your word versus some West Point academician, so unless you provide some evidence, the comparison is not in your favor.
Here's an articles about the murder:
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamach_na_Pawła_Adamowicza
The West Point article made a claim without any evidence. Assertions made without evidence can be dismissed without counterevidence.
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On August 12 2023 17:57 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 17:45 maybenexttime wrote:
Yes, because, clearly, having neo-Nazi concerts or someone physically attack an LGBT person during a pride parade is even remotely comparable to having public officials invite violent neo-Nazis to teach children how to kill or Russian neo-Nazis going on a war crime rampage in Ukraine. Let's not forget that your country is literally run by fascists.
-if I'd believe the part on the fascists to be true, I'd be long gone from Russia, as my family has places to live in Israel and Germany, and its not hard for a math PhD to get a well-paid job there. All the other is a "you have more nazis - no you have more nazis" thing. I don't know, how to do the comparisons; at least our nazis do not kill city mayors
Well at least your nazis work as a training ground for terrorist attacks in Europe, e.g. the two swedes who attempted a terrorist bombing after combat training with Russian nazis.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On August 12 2023 18:37 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 18:28 a_ch wrote:On August 12 2023 18:10 maybenexttime wrote:
I couldn't care less if you believe it. Your neo-Nazis only kill, torture and rape countless innocent Ukrainians. As I explained, the guy mentioned in the article has no links to far-right. Are you pretending to be this stupid? It is your word versus some West Point academician, so unless you provide some evidence, the comparison is not in your favor. Here's an articles about the murder: https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamach_na_Pawła_AdamowiczaThe West Point article made a claim without any evidence. Assertions made without evidence can be dismissed without counterevidence.
Weren't you told at the university, that wikipedia links do not serve as solid proofs? The point is,
wikipedia is edited at will, with editors barely having any responsibility, - while the article that I brought, at least has an author who puts his reputation at stake.
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On August 12 2023 17:57 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 17:45 maybenexttime wrote:
Yes, because, clearly, having neo-Nazi concerts or someone physically attack an LGBT person during a pride parade is even remotely comparable to having public officials invite violent neo-Nazis to teach children how to kill or Russian neo-Nazis going on a war crime rampage in Ukraine. Let's not forget that your country is literally run by fascists.
-if I'd believe the part on the fascists to be true, I'd be long gone from Russia, as my family has places to live in Israel and Germany, and its not hard for a math PhD to get a well-paid job there. All the other is a "you have more nazis - no you have more nazis" thing. I don't know, how to do the comparisons; at least our nazis do not kill city mayors
The ideology of Putin in particular and the vast majority of the government in general is clearly fascist, whether you want to acknowledge that or not.
When your leader is quoting fascists in public speeches, flying the corpse of a fascist thinker from another country to Russia to bury it there in a ceremony, align themselves with literal Nazi economists and thinkers that fled to Russia after not being welcome in other parts of the world, and base their entire political view and strategy around a hodgepodge mix of fascism, former Nazis and other batshit crazy philosophy, I think that it is fair to say that your country is run by fascists. If it walks like a fascist, if it talks like a fascist, it is a fucking fascist.
I know that this is hard to acknowledge and I know that avoiding serious reflection is a bit of a Russian habit historically, but eventually you have to stop ignoring the reality around you. And I am not sure whether you are simply uneducated on this topic or ignore this intentionally. If it is the former and you genuinely entertain the thought that you could be wrong, there are things you can look into that might give you a better perspective.
Though something tells me that it is the latter, rather than the former and that introspection and reflection are not wanted or ignored in favor of peddling nonsense in a forum.
On August 12 2023 18:47 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 18:37 maybenexttime wrote:On August 12 2023 18:28 a_ch wrote:On August 12 2023 18:10 maybenexttime wrote:
I couldn't care less if you believe it. Your neo-Nazis only kill, torture and rape countless innocent Ukrainians. As I explained, the guy mentioned in the article has no links to far-right. Are you pretending to be this stupid? It is your word versus some West Point academician, so unless you provide some evidence, the comparison is not in your favor. Here's an articles about the murder: https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamach_na_Pawła_AdamowiczaThe West Point article made a claim without any evidence. Assertions made without evidence can be dismissed without counterevidence. Weren't you told at the university, that wikipedia links do not serve as a solid proofs? The point is, wikipedia is edited at will, with editors barely having any responsibility, - while the article that I brought, at least has an author who puts his reputation at stake.
While it is true that quoting Wikipedia is poor form and frowned upon in academia, it still provides a lengthy list of sources at the bottom. So you are free to peruse that section and look at the sources at your own leisure.
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On August 12 2023 18:47 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 18:37 maybenexttime wrote:On August 12 2023 18:28 a_ch wrote:On August 12 2023 18:10 maybenexttime wrote:
I couldn't care less if you believe it. Your neo-Nazis only kill, torture and rape countless innocent Ukrainians. As I explained, the guy mentioned in the article has no links to far-right. Are you pretending to be this stupid? It is your word versus some West Point academician, so unless you provide some evidence, the comparison is not in your favor. Here's an articles about the murder: https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamach_na_Pawła_AdamowiczaThe West Point article made a claim without any evidence. Assertions made without evidence can be dismissed without counterevidence. Weren't you told at the university, that wikipedia links do not serve as a solid proofs? The point is, wikipedia is edited at will, with editors barely having any responsibility, - while the article that I brought, at least has an author who puts his reputation at stake.
Show me where in the article there is any evidence linking the perpetrator to far-right.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On August 12 2023 18:44 Neneu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 17:57 a_ch wrote:On August 12 2023 17:45 maybenexttime wrote:
Yes, because, clearly, having neo-Nazi concerts or someone physically attack an LGBT person during a pride parade is even remotely comparable to having public officials invite violent neo-Nazis to teach children how to kill or Russian neo-Nazis going on a war crime rampage in Ukraine. Let's not forget that your country is literally run by fascists.
-if I'd believe the part on the fascists to be true, I'd be long gone from Russia, as my family has places to live in Israel and Germany, and its not hard for a math PhD to get a well-paid job there. All the other is a "you have more nazis - no you have more nazis" thing. I don't know, how to do the comparisons; at least our nazis do not kill city mayors Well at least your nazis work as a training ground for terrorist attacks in Europe, e.g. the two swedes who attempted a terrorist bombing after combat training with Russian nazis.
Actually, I think you're right, and I know that our state intelligence has lots of connections with various organizations, which one could label as "terroristic". That is one the reasons why I previously called FSB the largest terror organization on the planet.
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On August 12 2023 07:50 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 07:48 KwarK wrote:
And what was going on? Specifically in the years 2019-2021. Please share your facts about what was going on. No I'm done discussing this here for now sorry. Maybe later.
I know we're several pages later (My god you guys write a lot), but I find it hilarious how any time someone is put on the backfoot, they either stop responding and pretend it never happened, or they go with a petty "I don't want to talk to you any more". Here's a protip: If you receive an argument that clashes with your worldview, it's worth reevaluating it. Smart people don't put blinders on and dig down, no matter how much it sucks in the moment (And yes, being wrong is a shitty feeling. Suck it up and learn from it)
Here, let me go first: I think Ardias has made several good points that have made me go "Huh, ok. I'll have to rethink that". I don't agree with most of what he's saying, but he does bring out actual reasonably points now and then. And he never (as far as I have seen, I certainly don't stalk his every comment) rehashes Russian lies that even the Russian government themselves have given up pretending on. I certainly don't remotely agree with his views on the war of course, but I can respect some of his points, because he base them on the newest evidence (And I bet the second I post this someone is going to point out something stupid he said to prove me wrong, but oh well).
Now, I wonder, who else on the Russian side in this thread is willing to admit that they've learned something from anyone they've disagreed with? Is anyone going to make me proud?
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There's no need to go personal in this discussion. The West Point article is wrong and it's mostly because they cherry-picked some few incidents in our history (it's akin to saying US is super far-right racist country because in the 60's they were lynching black people). I see quite a lot of such misconceptions about Poland and I think most of them can be attributed to a few things. Sure, we are a bit behind on diversity but historically Poland has been one of the most tolerant and inclusive countries in the world (we welcomed Jews when everyone rejected them, we didn't have witch trials etc.). This image of Poles being racist and averse to diversity is because of how homogenous the country is, with the majority of the population being white catholics people are simply unfamiliar with others - doesn't necessarily mean they hate them, they're just wary of them because it takes time to befriend someone. Another thing is that as a nation we're all kinda grumpy and might seem rather cold since we're not really the outgoing types for the most part (but when we get to know you it's different). I remember my friend who went to the US to study being totally grossed out by everyone saying "good morning", smiling at you and welcoming you as a long time friend off the bat, it's the opposite here, you get a bit of a cold shoulder treatment in the beginning.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On August 12 2023 18:49 Nezgar wrote:
The ideology of Putin in particular and the vast majority of the government in general is clearly fascist, whether you want to acknowledge that or not.
When your leader is quoting fascists in public speeches, flying the corpse of a fascist thinker from another country to Russia to bury it there in a ceremony, align themselves with literal Nazi economists and thinkers that fled to Russia after not being welcome in other parts of the world, and base their entire political view and strategy around a hodgepodge mix of fascism, former Nazis and other batshit crazy philosophy, I think that it is fair to say that your country is run by fascists. If it walks like a fascist, if it talks like a fascist, it is a fucking fascist.
-i'm very interested who is that Nazi economist (straight from the 3rd Reich I hope).
More seriously, fascism is a very vague term. Some historians claim the political regimes in ancient Greece and Rome were fascist. Should we completely cancel them from the historical books?
In my opinion your "I won't take a dump in the same field with a fascist" is itself more abnormal and totalitarian.
What I think is an undeniable act of a fascist state - is to burn 50 people alive, and then let the perpetrators off the court. But you perhaps dont even know what i'm talking about, and how it is related to the war - because your media guides very carefully where you need to look, and where not.
On August 12 2023 18:49 Nezgar wrote:
While it is true that quoting Wikipedia is poor form and frowned upon in academia, it still provides a lengthy list of sources at the bottom. So you are free to peruse that section and look at the sources at your own leisure.
-i've managed to provide a certain piece of article of a decent reputation. It is not of my business to sort through all the internet for a possible contradiction to it. If @maybenexttime is sure that the claim is wrong, he is also better informed, and knows where to find the arguments against it.
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On August 12 2023 19:00 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 07:50 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 12 2023 07:48 KwarK wrote:
And what was going on? Specifically in the years 2019-2021. Please share your facts about what was going on. No I'm done discussing this here for now sorry. Maybe later. I know we're several pages later (My god you guys write a lot), but I find it hilarious how any time someone is put on the backfoot, they either stop responding and pretend it never happened, or they go with a petty "I don't want to talk to you any more". Here's a protip: If you receive an argument that clashes with your worldview, it's worth reevaluating it. Smart people don't put blinders on and dig down, no matter how much it sucks in the moment (And yes, being wrong is a shitty feeling. Suck it up and learn from it)
You're funny. Stating a few things gets you insulted and banned if you reply then you expect a discussion. Learn manners first.
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Northern Ireland24979 Posts
It really, really depends what the few things you state are though.
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On August 12 2023 19:37 WombaT wrote:
It really, really depends what the few things you state are though.
Exactly. If you don't like it you don't want it, can't talk.
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On August 12 2023 19:29 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 18:49 Nezgar wrote:
The ideology of Putin in particular and the vast majority of the government in general is clearly fascist, whether you want to acknowledge that or not.
When your leader is quoting fascists in public speeches, flying the corpse of a fascist thinker from another country to Russia to bury it there in a ceremony, align themselves with literal Nazi economists and thinkers that fled to Russia after not being welcome in other parts of the world, and base their entire political view and strategy around a hodgepodge mix of fascism, former Nazis and other batshit crazy philosophy, I think that it is fair to say that your country is run by fascists. If it walks like a fascist, if it talks like a fascist, it is a fucking fascist. -i'm very interested who is that Nazi economist (straight from the 3rd Reich I hope). More seriously, fascism is a very vague term. Some historians claim the political regimes in ancient Greece and Rome were fascist. Should we completely cancel them from the historical books? In my opinion your "I won't take a dump in the same field with a fascist" is itself more abnormal and totalitarian. What I think is an undeniable act of a fascist state - is to burn 50 people alive, and then let the perpetrators off the court. But you perhaps dont even know what i'm talking about, and how it is related to the war - because your media guides very carefully where you need to look, and where not. Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 18:49 Nezgar wrote:
While it is true that quoting Wikipedia is poor form and frowned upon in academia, it still provides a lengthy list of sources at the bottom. So you are free to peruse that section and look at the sources at your own leisure. -i've managed to provide a certain piece of article of a decent reputation. It is not of my business to sort through all the internet for a possible contradiction to it. If @maybenexttime is sure that the claim is wrong, he is also better informed, and knows where to find the arguments against it.
Reputation does not make an argument. As I said, claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Show me where in the article there is any evidence linking the perpetrator to far-right. You're asking me to prove a negative, show evidence for something not existing. I'm sure you know how dumb that is. ;-) But you have no intention to argue in good faith. You're here to derail the thread, as you have been doing from the very beginning.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On August 12 2023 19:00 Excludos wrote:
Now, I wonder, who else on the Russian side in this thread is willing to admit that they've learned something from anyone they've disagreed with? Is anyone going to make me proud?
I've been following this thread for ~1 year (mostly lurking), and I've learned a lot from Ardias, Salazar, and some other guys - to the point that I even threw away my old account, as being too embarassing)
On August 12 2023 19:03 Manit0u wrote:
There's no need to go personal in this discussion. The West Point article is wrong and it's mostly because they cherry-picked some few incidents in our history (it's akin to saying US is super far-right racist country because in the 60's they were lynching black people). I see quite a lot of such misconceptions about Poland and I think most of them can be attributed to a few things. Sure, we are a bit behind on diversity but historically Poland has been one of the most tolerant and inclusive countries in the world (we welcomed Jews when everyone rejected them, we didn't have witch trials etc.). This image of Poles being racist and averse to diversity is because of how homogenous the country is, with the majority of the population being white catholics people are simply unfamiliar with others - doesn't necessarily mean they hate them, they're just wary of them because it takes time to befriend someone. Another thing is that as a nation we're all kinda grumpy and might seem rather cold since we're not really the outgoing types for the most part (but when we get to know you it's different). I remember my friend who went to the US to study being totally grossed out by everyone saying "good morning", smiling at you and welcoming you as a long time friend off the bat, it's the opposite here, you get a bit of a cold shoulder treatment in the beginning.
-nah, I don't have any strong negativity towards @maybenexttime, just a little annoyed by absurdity of the claims. For a multinational and multireligious country like Russia, any strong nationalistic movement is a recipe for disaster. So cannot even discuss that point seriously
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About the healthcare comparison between Russia, Sweden and so forth from a few pages ago, I'd like to remind: if something in this thread sounds even remotely pro-Russian, please be immediately skeptical.
Sweden ranks 28th, while Russia ranks 58th. That's a relatively low rating for Sweden compared to its Scandinavian neighbors. Note that Russia ranks much lower, even lower than all the Baltic states or Italy.
It's completely unsurprising that examples can be found of bad healthcare in Sweden and of good healthcare in Russia: that's because it's an apples to oranges comparison. Compare a region in Russia that offers higher quality healthcare to a region in Sweden that offers lower quality healthcare. In this way if you select a few anecdotes from individuals living in specific parts of each country, you can easily paint a completely backwards comparison between the countries.
There are regions in the UK where healthcare is bad. Some regions are being mismanaged and/or underfunded. But the UK ranks 10th overall.
This is because the overall ranking reflects the general state of the country, but not that of specific regions. Discrepancies exist in every country.
Thus the conclusion from these anecdotes isn't that Russia is better in regards like healthcare. The conclusion is that an apples to oranges comparison was made for propaganda or other misinformation purposes. Some regions in Russia have good healthcare and in others it's bad. Overall it's certainly NOT better than in the EU. It's clearly worse. Whether that is due to underfunding and mismanaging, or due to Russia's unique geography, or a mix of both, is another question.
We can conclude and speculate many things, but the claim that healthcare is better in Russia than in some EU countries is strictly false.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-world
You can ignore the following example about Ireland, the above suffices for my argument.
If someone wanted to paint Russia's healthcare as equal or better to the EU's, they could selectively point to Ireland where it's pretty bad. They have too few doctors and not enough hospital beds. Otherwise they're doing quite well, and somehow Irish people even have the highest life expectancy in the EU despite having the second highest rate of obesity.
https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-healthcare-system-compared-to-eu-5778807-Jun2022/
Here also a key observation is that Ireland has a unique geography. Not even one city in Ireland has a greater population density than Moscow. Age and distances also affect healthcare demand and supply. So for several reasons there's a lot of variation in the healthcare quality between Irish counties. You may note that Ireland actually spends quite a lot on healthcare and it still receives a low overall rating.
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EPT
