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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
@a_ch as the rest of our Kremlin clowns, you refuse to engage. You just shit up the thread with whataboutism and baseless claims. You get called out. You ignore the fact and pretend nothing happened.
I'll ask again. Show me where in the article there is any evidence linking the perpetrator to far-right.
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On August 12 2023 19:33 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 19:00 Excludos wrote:On August 12 2023 07:50 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 12 2023 07:48 KwarK wrote:
And what was going on? Specifically in the years 2019-2021. Please share your facts about what was going on. No I'm done discussing this here for now sorry. Maybe later. I know we're several pages later (My god you guys write a lot), but I find it hilarious how any time someone is put on the backfoot, they either stop responding and pretend it never happened, or they go with a petty "I don't want to talk to you any more". Here's a protip: If you receive an argument that clashes with your worldview, it's worth reevaluating it. Smart people don't put blinders on and dig down, no matter how much it sucks in the moment (And yes, being wrong is a shitty feeling. Suck it up and learn from it) You're funny. Stating a few things gets you insulted and banned if you reply then you expect a discussion. Learn manners first.
I got warned a number of times and even banned more than once, and when it happened I knew exactly what it was for and I corrected my behavior. When people get banned on TL.net, chances are very high they did something wrong. By that I mean not posting a "wrong opinion". I mean displaying very disruptive behavior. This was also true in my case. It's better to take responsibility and move on.
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On August 12 2023 20:17 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 19:33 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 12 2023 19:00 Excludos wrote:On August 12 2023 07:50 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 12 2023 07:48 KwarK wrote:
And what was going on? Specifically in the years 2019-2021. Please share your facts about what was going on. No I'm done discussing this here for now sorry. Maybe later. I know we're several pages later (My god you guys write a lot), but I find it hilarious how any time someone is put on the backfoot, they either stop responding and pretend it never happened, or they go with a petty "I don't want to talk to you any more". Here's a protip: If you receive an argument that clashes with your worldview, it's worth reevaluating it. Smart people don't put blinders on and dig down, no matter how much it sucks in the moment (And yes, being wrong is a shitty feeling. Suck it up and learn from it) You're funny. Stating a few things gets you insulted and banned if you reply then you expect a discussion. Learn manners first. I got warned a number of times and even banned more than once, and when it happened I knew exactly what it was for and I corrected my behavior. When people get banned on TL.net, chances are very high they did something wrong. By that I mean not posting a "wrong opinion". I mean displaying very disruptive behavior. This was also true in my case. It's better to take responsibility and move on.
Yeah then refrain from insulting me next time (not that you did btw). You get banned when multiple people insult you and you give it back. Or whatever reason.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On August 12 2023 20:13 maybenexttime wrote:
@a_ch as the rest of our Kremlin clowns, you refuse to engage. You just shit up the thread with whataboutism and baseless claims. You get called out. You ignore the fact and pretend nothing happened.
I'll ask again. Show me where in the article there is any evidence linking the perpetrator to far-right.
If you find it important that your close ally country's academic institution writes about nazi problem in Poland - do something with the author or with the nazi - its your problem not mine. And I cannot seriously argue with you about nazis in Russia - because, you know, to argue one needs an opponent, while all I see is a duckspeak echo of some propagandist.
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On August 12 2023 20:21 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 20:17 Magic Powers wrote:On August 12 2023 19:33 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 12 2023 19:00 Excludos wrote:On August 12 2023 07:50 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 12 2023 07:48 KwarK wrote:
And what was going on? Specifically in the years 2019-2021. Please share your facts about what was going on. No I'm done discussing this here for now sorry. Maybe later. I know we're several pages later (My god you guys write a lot), but I find it hilarious how any time someone is put on the backfoot, they either stop responding and pretend it never happened, or they go with a petty "I don't want to talk to you any more". Here's a protip: If you receive an argument that clashes with your worldview, it's worth reevaluating it. Smart people don't put blinders on and dig down, no matter how much it sucks in the moment (And yes, being wrong is a shitty feeling. Suck it up and learn from it) You're funny. Stating a few things gets you insulted and banned if you reply then you expect a discussion. Learn manners first. I got warned a number of times and even banned more than once, and when it happened I knew exactly what it was for and I corrected my behavior. When people get banned on TL.net, chances are very high they did something wrong. By that I mean not posting a "wrong opinion". I mean displaying very disruptive behavior. This was also true in my case. It's better to take responsibility and move on. Yeah then refrain from insulting me next time (not that you did btw). You get banned when multiple people insult you and you give it back. Or whatever reason.
You can report people to the mods if you think they acted against forum/thread policy. Mods have some bias, but when it comes to their choice of who they ban, that bias is greatly diminished.
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Croatia9495 Posts
Guys, please don't shit out this thread to the point of not being usable. This thread is about the Russian-Ukrainian war and its broader context. A long-form and nuanced discussion is encouraged, while snarky one-liners and personal attacks are not. If you have an axe to grind against a particular person, please take it to PMs.
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On August 12 2023 19:29 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 18:49 Nezgar wrote:
The ideology of Putin in particular and the vast majority of the government in general is clearly fascist, whether you want to acknowledge that or not.
When your leader is quoting fascists in public speeches, flying the corpse of a fascist thinker from another country to Russia to bury it there in a ceremony, align themselves with literal Nazi economists and thinkers that fled to Russia after not being welcome in other parts of the world, and base their entire political view and strategy around a hodgepodge mix of fascism, former Nazis and other batshit crazy philosophy, I think that it is fair to say that your country is run by fascists. If it walks like a fascist, if it talks like a fascist, it is a fucking fascist. -i'm very interested who is that Nazi economist (straight from the 3rd Reich I hope). More seriously, fascism is a very vague term. Some historians claim the political regimes in ancient Greece and Rome were fascist. Should we completely cancel them from the historical books? In my opinion your "I won't take a dump in the same field with a fascist" is itself more abnormal and totalitarian. What I think is an undeniable act of a fascist state - is to burn 50 people alive, and then let the perpetrators off the court. But you perhaps dont even know what i'm talking about, and how it is related to the war - because your media guides very carefully where you need to look, and where not. Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 18:49 Nezgar wrote:
While it is true that quoting Wikipedia is poor form and frowned upon in academia, it still provides a lengthy list of sources at the bottom. So you are free to peruse that section and look at the sources at your own leisure. -i've managed to provide a certain piece of article of a decent reputation. It is not of my business to sort through all the internet for a possible contradiction to it. If @maybenexttime is sure that the claim is wrong, he is also better informed, and knows where to find the arguments against it.
It is indeed someone straight from the 3rd Reich, though calling him an economist might have missed the mark a little. I am talking about Carl Schmitt, someone that Putin himself is clearly very fond of.
Everything you said after that is some of the dumbest shit anyone can write. Condemning a political stance does not mean that you have to purge it from the history books. I know that Russians have a hard time understanding this, but you can look at the past through an objective lens and accept that things in the past have been atrocious and learn from that past to not repeat the same mistakes.
And your claim of "Your dislike of totalitarianism is itself totalitarian" is just absurdly stupid. I am baffled that you can write that and not burst out laughing at your own nonsense. It's akin to saying "Your dislike of intolerant people makes you intolerant, so we are pretty much the same. Maybe you are even more intolerant because of it" and it's just... I don't even know, if you cannot see how absurd that stance is, no argument of reason will get past the defenses against logic and reason that you have erected around your worldview.
You might just be irredeemably lost in your own bullshit with no interest to engage in honest or critical discourse.
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On August 12 2023 20:07 Magic Powers wrote:About the healthcare comparison between Russia, Sweden and so forth from a few pages ago, I'd like to remind: if something in this thread sounds even remotely pro-Russian, please be immediately skeptical. Sweden ranks 28th, while Russia ranks 58th. That's a relatively low rating for Sweden compared to its Scandinavian neighbors. Note that Russia ranks much lower, even lower than all the Baltic states or Italy. It's completely unsurprising that examples can be found of bad healthcare in Sweden and of good healthcare in Russia: that's because it's an apples to oranges comparison. Compare a region in Russia that offers higher quality healthcare to a region in Sweden that offers lower quality healthcare. In this way if you select a few anecdotes from individuals living in specific parts of each country, you can easily paint a completely backwards comparison between the countries. There are regions in the UK where healthcare is bad. Some regions are being mismanaged and/or underfunded. But the UK ranks 10th overall. This is because the overall ranking reflects the general state of the country, but not that of specific regions. Discrepancies exist in every country. Thus the conclusion from these anecdotes isn't that Russia is better in regards like healthcare. The conclusion is that an apples to oranges comparison was made for propaganda or other misinformation purposes. Some regions in Russia have good healthcare and in others it's bad. Overall it's certainly NOT better than in the EU. It's clearly worse. Whether that is due to underfunding and mismanaging, or due to Russia's unique geography, or a mix of both, is another question. We can conclude and speculate many things, but the claim that healthcare is better in Russia than in some EU countries is strictly false. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-worldYou can ignore the following example about Ireland, the above suffices for my argument.If someone wanted to paint Russia's healthcare as equal or better to the EU's, they could selectively point to Ireland where it's pretty bad. They have too few doctors and not enough hospital beds. Otherwise they're doing quite well, and somehow Irish people even have the highest life expectancy in the EU despite having the second highest rate of obesity. https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-healthcare-system-compared-to-eu-5778807-Jun2022/Here also a key observation is that Ireland has a unique geography. Not even one city in Ireland has a greater population density than Moscow. Age and distances also affect healthcare demand and supply. So for several reasons there's a lot of variation in the healthcare quality between Irish counties. You may note that Ireland actually spends quite a lot on healthcare and it still receives a low overall rating.
Ranking complex institutions such as healthcare on a simple scale is an exercise in futility. There is no one country that is indisputably 'best' at every facet of healthcare, and there is no one country that is 'worst.' For example, according to your link, South Korea is ranked as #1 in the world. Yet, the average number of patients per nurse in South Korea is ~20, which is way below OECD average and leads to a healthcare system where inpatient care can only remain functional thanks to family assistance in all but the most expensive of private hospitals. It's also very uncommon for doctors to develop close relations with their patients so for folks with chronic conditions that require regular medical interventions it's just not a great place to be. Psychiatry and psychology here is also incredibly underdeveloped (pretty much non-existent outside of small private practices, actually).
I don't live in Sweden, but I have a close friend who does. According to him, it can take weeks before you can get a simple checkup at a general practitioner. Anything that requires a specialist has to be booked way in advance; including acute care such as tooth pain or something. Now, I'm pretty certain that the overall quality of equipment and level of care (once you do see the doctor you need to see) is better in Sweden than it is even in Moscow or St Petersburg never mind some provincial town in rural Siberia, but I don't think it's entirely impossible that certain aspects of how healthcare operates in Russia might be better than how it is in Sweden. It's also entirely possible that, depending on what your individual situation and priorities are, that healthcare in Russia may be more suitable and appropriate for you than Swedish healthcare is.
I'm also pretty sure that insisting 'you should be immediately skeptical of anything remotely pro-Russian' doesn't lead to fair and balanced discussions, but I guess the ship has sailed on that one, considering we've had multiple people claiming all Russians are dumb goblins that deserve to be exterminated and majority of this board being, well, on board with that.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On August 12 2023 20:54 Nezgar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 19:29 a_ch wrote:On August 12 2023 18:49 Nezgar wrote:
The ideology of Putin in particular and the vast majority of the government in general is clearly fascist, whether you want to acknowledge that or not.
When your leader is quoting fascists in public speeches, flying the corpse of a fascist thinker from another country to Russia to bury it there in a ceremony, align themselves with literal Nazi economists and thinkers that fled to Russia after not being welcome in other parts of the world, and base their entire political view and strategy around a hodgepodge mix of fascism, former Nazis and other batshit crazy philosophy, I think that it is fair to say that your country is run by fascists. If it walks like a fascist, if it talks like a fascist, it is a fucking fascist. -i'm very interested who is that Nazi economist (straight from the 3rd Reich I hope). More seriously, fascism is a very vague term. Some historians claim the political regimes in ancient Greece and Rome were fascist. Should we completely cancel them from the historical books? In my opinion your "I won't take a dump in the same field with a fascist" is itself more abnormal and totalitarian. What I think is an undeniable act of a fascist state - is to burn 50 people alive, and then let the perpetrators off the court. But you perhaps dont even know what i'm talking about, and how it is related to the war - because your media guides very carefully where you need to look, and where not. On August 12 2023 18:49 Nezgar wrote:
While it is true that quoting Wikipedia is poor form and frowned upon in academia, it still provides a lengthy list of sources at the bottom. So you are free to peruse that section and look at the sources at your own leisure. -i've managed to provide a certain piece of article of a decent reputation. It is not of my business to sort through all the internet for a possible contradiction to it. If @maybenexttime is sure that the claim is wrong, he is also better informed, and knows where to find the arguments against it. It is indeed someone straight from the 3rd Reich, though calling him an economist might have missed the mark a little. I am talking about Carl Schmitt, someone that Putin himself is clearly very fond of. Everything you said after that is some of the dumbest shit anyone can write. Condemning a political stance does not mean that you have to purge it from the history books. I know that Russians have a hard time understanding this, but you can look at the past through an objective lens and accept that things in the past have been atrocious and learn from that past to not repeat the same mistakes. And your claim of "Your dislike of totalitarianism is itself totalitarian" is just absurdly stupid. I am baffled that you can write that and not burst out laughing at your own nonsense. It's akin to saying "Your dislike of intolerant people makes you intolerant, so we are pretty much the same. Maybe you are even more intolerant because of it" and it's just... I don't even know, if you cannot see how absurd that stance is, no argument of reason will get past the defenses against logic and reason that you have erected around your worldview. You might just be irredeemably lost in your own bullshit with no interest to engage in honest or critical discourse.
-but you make it not discussable yourself. You just label everyone you dislike a fascist, and thats it. I'm not familiar with Schmitt or Iliyin's works. If I've missed some clear fascistic statements or actions of my government - name it; besides that I don't see a point of discussion.
And your claim on me needing to reflect on this matter is laughable - because what you wrote here is exactly the main discourse of a lot of Russian "liberals" from Novaya Gazeta. I know this stuff since the beginning of 2000's - they've been mass-producing this shit on American taxpayers money. This is similar to how every German is repeatedly told that they are the villains of Europe - to create a guilt complex for WW2 even in far descendants of the people, who actually took part in it. The difference between me and you is that I want the one who teaches me morales to behave appropriately, while you take the same shit at the face value.
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On August 12 2023 21:03 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 20:07 Magic Powers wrote:About the healthcare comparison between Russia, Sweden and so forth from a few pages ago, I'd like to remind: if something in this thread sounds even remotely pro-Russian, please be immediately skeptical. Sweden ranks 28th, while Russia ranks 58th. That's a relatively low rating for Sweden compared to its Scandinavian neighbors. Note that Russia ranks much lower, even lower than all the Baltic states or Italy. It's completely unsurprising that examples can be found of bad healthcare in Sweden and of good healthcare in Russia: that's because it's an apples to oranges comparison. Compare a region in Russia that offers higher quality healthcare to a region in Sweden that offers lower quality healthcare. In this way if you select a few anecdotes from individuals living in specific parts of each country, you can easily paint a completely backwards comparison between the countries. There are regions in the UK where healthcare is bad. Some regions are being mismanaged and/or underfunded. But the UK ranks 10th overall. This is because the overall ranking reflects the general state of the country, but not that of specific regions. Discrepancies exist in every country. Thus the conclusion from these anecdotes isn't that Russia is better in regards like healthcare. The conclusion is that an apples to oranges comparison was made for propaganda or other misinformation purposes. Some regions in Russia have good healthcare and in others it's bad. Overall it's certainly NOT better than in the EU. It's clearly worse. Whether that is due to underfunding and mismanaging, or due to Russia's unique geography, or a mix of both, is another question. We can conclude and speculate many things, but the claim that healthcare is better in Russia than in some EU countries is strictly false. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-worldYou can ignore the following example about Ireland, the above suffices for my argument.If someone wanted to paint Russia's healthcare as equal or better to the EU's, they could selectively point to Ireland where it's pretty bad. They have too few doctors and not enough hospital beds. Otherwise they're doing quite well, and somehow Irish people even have the highest life expectancy in the EU despite having the second highest rate of obesity. https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-healthcare-system-compared-to-eu-5778807-Jun2022/Here also a key observation is that Ireland has a unique geography. Not even one city in Ireland has a greater population density than Moscow. Age and distances also affect healthcare demand and supply. So for several reasons there's a lot of variation in the healthcare quality between Irish counties. You may note that Ireland actually spends quite a lot on healthcare and it still receives a low overall rating. Ranking complex institutions such as healthcare on a simple scale is an exercise in futility. There is no one country that is indisputably 'best' at every facet of healthcare, and there is no one country that is 'worst.' For example, according to your link, South Korea is ranked as #1 in the world. Yet, the average number of patients per nurse in South Korea is ~20, which is way below OECD average and leads to a healthcare system where inpatient care can only remain functional thanks to family assistance in all but the most expensive of private hospitals. It's also very uncommon for doctors to develop close relations with their patients so for folks with chronic conditions that require regular medical interventions it's just not a great place to be. Psychiatry and psychology here is also incredibly underdeveloped (pretty much non-existent outside of small private practices, actually). I don't live in Sweden, but I have a close friend who does. According to him, it can take weeks before you can get a simple checkup at a general practitioner. Anything that requires a specialist has to be booked way in advance; including acute care such as tooth pain or something. Now, I'm pretty certain that the overall quality of equipment and level of care (once you do see the doctor you need to see) is better in Sweden than it is even in Moscow or St Petersburg never mind some provincial town in rural Siberia, but I don't think it's entirely impossible that certain aspects of how healthcare operates in Russia might be better than how it is in Sweden. It's also entirely possible that, depending on what your individual situation and priorities are, that healthcare in Russia may be more suitable and appropriate for you than Swedish healthcare is. I'm also pretty sure that insisting 'you should be immediately skeptical of anything remotely pro-Russian' doesn't lead to fair and balanced discussions, but I guess the ship has sailed on that one, considering we've had multiple people claiming all Russians are dumb goblins that deserve to be exterminated and majority of this board being, well, on board with that.
The OECD average of annual visits at the doctor is 6.9. In South Korea it's 14.7, that is +113% above the average. So people spend much less time per visit, but they visit a lot more frequently. An average time of 3 to 4 minutes spent at a doctor's office is thus effectively closer to 6 to 8 minutes. Suddenly things don't sound anywhere near as bad anymore.
There are many ways data can be fudged with and I'm quite familiar with many of these ways. This is one of those ways.
The anecdote of a friend living in Sweden doesn't suffice as evidence that things are worse in Sweden. Experiences vary heavily between regions and even between individual doctors. They also vary between the public sector and the private sector. There are too many confounding variables to consider anecdotes as valid counter arguments to country-wide data.
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On August 12 2023 21:39 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 21:03 Salazarz wrote:On August 12 2023 20:07 Magic Powers wrote:About the healthcare comparison between Russia, Sweden and so forth from a few pages ago, I'd like to remind: if something in this thread sounds even remotely pro-Russian, please be immediately skeptical. Sweden ranks 28th, while Russia ranks 58th. That's a relatively low rating for Sweden compared to its Scandinavian neighbors. Note that Russia ranks much lower, even lower than all the Baltic states or Italy. It's completely unsurprising that examples can be found of bad healthcare in Sweden and of good healthcare in Russia: that's because it's an apples to oranges comparison. Compare a region in Russia that offers higher quality healthcare to a region in Sweden that offers lower quality healthcare. In this way if you select a few anecdotes from individuals living in specific parts of each country, you can easily paint a completely backwards comparison between the countries. There are regions in the UK where healthcare is bad. Some regions are being mismanaged and/or underfunded. But the UK ranks 10th overall. This is because the overall ranking reflects the general state of the country, but not that of specific regions. Discrepancies exist in every country. Thus the conclusion from these anecdotes isn't that Russia is better in regards like healthcare. The conclusion is that an apples to oranges comparison was made for propaganda or other misinformation purposes. Some regions in Russia have good healthcare and in others it's bad. Overall it's certainly NOT better than in the EU. It's clearly worse. Whether that is due to underfunding and mismanaging, or due to Russia's unique geography, or a mix of both, is another question. We can conclude and speculate many things, but the claim that healthcare is better in Russia than in some EU countries is strictly false. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-worldYou can ignore the following example about Ireland, the above suffices for my argument.If someone wanted to paint Russia's healthcare as equal or better to the EU's, they could selectively point to Ireland where it's pretty bad. They have too few doctors and not enough hospital beds. Otherwise they're doing quite well, and somehow Irish people even have the highest life expectancy in the EU despite having the second highest rate of obesity. https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-healthcare-system-compared-to-eu-5778807-Jun2022/Here also a key observation is that Ireland has a unique geography. Not even one city in Ireland has a greater population density than Moscow. Age and distances also affect healthcare demand and supply. So for several reasons there's a lot of variation in the healthcare quality between Irish counties. You may note that Ireland actually spends quite a lot on healthcare and it still receives a low overall rating. Ranking complex institutions such as healthcare on a simple scale is an exercise in futility. There is no one country that is indisputably 'best' at every facet of healthcare, and there is no one country that is 'worst.' For example, according to your link, South Korea is ranked as #1 in the world. Yet, the average number of patients per nurse in South Korea is ~20, which is way below OECD average and leads to a healthcare system where inpatient care can only remain functional thanks to family assistance in all but the most expensive of private hospitals. It's also very uncommon for doctors to develop close relations with their patients so for folks with chronic conditions that require regular medical interventions it's just not a great place to be. Psychiatry and psychology here is also incredibly underdeveloped (pretty much non-existent outside of small private practices, actually). I don't live in Sweden, but I have a close friend who does. According to him, it can take weeks before you can get a simple checkup at a general practitioner. Anything that requires a specialist has to be booked way in advance; including acute care such as tooth pain or something. Now, I'm pretty certain that the overall quality of equipment and level of care (once you do see the doctor you need to see) is better in Sweden than it is even in Moscow or St Petersburg never mind some provincial town in rural Siberia, but I don't think it's entirely impossible that certain aspects of how healthcare operates in Russia might be better than how it is in Sweden. It's also entirely possible that, depending on what your individual situation and priorities are, that healthcare in Russia may be more suitable and appropriate for you than Swedish healthcare is. I'm also pretty sure that insisting 'you should be immediately skeptical of anything remotely pro-Russian' doesn't lead to fair and balanced discussions, but I guess the ship has sailed on that one, considering we've had multiple people claiming all Russians are dumb goblins that deserve to be exterminated and majority of this board being, well, on board with that. The OECD average of annual visits at the doctor is 6.9. In South Korea it's 14.7, that is +113% above the average. So people spend much less time per visit, but they visit a lot more frequently. An average time of 3 to 4 minutes spent at a doctor's office is thus effectively closer to 6 to 8 minutes. Suddenly things don't sound anywhere near as bad anymore. There are many ways data can be fudged with and I'm quite familiar with many of these ways. This is one of those ways. The anecdote of a friend living in Sweden doesn't suffice as evidence that things are worse in Sweden. Experiences vary heavily between regions and even between individual doctors. They also vary between the public sector and the private sector. There are too many confounding variables to consider anecdotes as valid counter arguments to country-wide data.
Extremly funny when people who are not from Sweden and knows nothing about how our healthcare system works and it's challenges defend it from someone actually living in Sweden.
He didnt say healthcare was better overall he stated that he had heard that it takes longer to recive primary care or non critical emergency care in Sweden compared to Russia.
That's the two areas of our system that have large problems (for a variety of reasons). This is a known problem frequently discussed both in society and in the news. Many other countries have better access to primary care than Sweden if you don't compare cost of care, it's likely that Russia could be one of those.
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edit: A fuck it, 2Pacalypse- is right. Let's try to keep this thread in focus
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On August 12 2023 22:33 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 21:39 Magic Powers wrote:On August 12 2023 21:03 Salazarz wrote:On August 12 2023 20:07 Magic Powers wrote:About the healthcare comparison between Russia, Sweden and so forth from a few pages ago, I'd like to remind: if something in this thread sounds even remotely pro-Russian, please be immediately skeptical. Sweden ranks 28th, while Russia ranks 58th. That's a relatively low rating for Sweden compared to its Scandinavian neighbors. Note that Russia ranks much lower, even lower than all the Baltic states or Italy. It's completely unsurprising that examples can be found of bad healthcare in Sweden and of good healthcare in Russia: that's because it's an apples to oranges comparison. Compare a region in Russia that offers higher quality healthcare to a region in Sweden that offers lower quality healthcare. In this way if you select a few anecdotes from individuals living in specific parts of each country, you can easily paint a completely backwards comparison between the countries. There are regions in the UK where healthcare is bad. Some regions are being mismanaged and/or underfunded. But the UK ranks 10th overall. This is because the overall ranking reflects the general state of the country, but not that of specific regions. Discrepancies exist in every country. Thus the conclusion from these anecdotes isn't that Russia is better in regards like healthcare. The conclusion is that an apples to oranges comparison was made for propaganda or other misinformation purposes. Some regions in Russia have good healthcare and in others it's bad. Overall it's certainly NOT better than in the EU. It's clearly worse. Whether that is due to underfunding and mismanaging, or due to Russia's unique geography, or a mix of both, is another question. We can conclude and speculate many things, but the claim that healthcare is better in Russia than in some EU countries is strictly false. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-worldYou can ignore the following example about Ireland, the above suffices for my argument.If someone wanted to paint Russia's healthcare as equal or better to the EU's, they could selectively point to Ireland where it's pretty bad. They have too few doctors and not enough hospital beds. Otherwise they're doing quite well, and somehow Irish people even have the highest life expectancy in the EU despite having the second highest rate of obesity. https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-healthcare-system-compared-to-eu-5778807-Jun2022/Here also a key observation is that Ireland has a unique geography. Not even one city in Ireland has a greater population density than Moscow. Age and distances also affect healthcare demand and supply. So for several reasons there's a lot of variation in the healthcare quality between Irish counties. You may note that Ireland actually spends quite a lot on healthcare and it still receives a low overall rating. Ranking complex institutions such as healthcare on a simple scale is an exercise in futility. There is no one country that is indisputably 'best' at every facet of healthcare, and there is no one country that is 'worst.' For example, according to your link, South Korea is ranked as #1 in the world. Yet, the average number of patients per nurse in South Korea is ~20, which is way below OECD average and leads to a healthcare system where inpatient care can only remain functional thanks to family assistance in all but the most expensive of private hospitals. It's also very uncommon for doctors to develop close relations with their patients so for folks with chronic conditions that require regular medical interventions it's just not a great place to be. Psychiatry and psychology here is also incredibly underdeveloped (pretty much non-existent outside of small private practices, actually). I don't live in Sweden, but I have a close friend who does. According to him, it can take weeks before you can get a simple checkup at a general practitioner. Anything that requires a specialist has to be booked way in advance; including acute care such as tooth pain or something. Now, I'm pretty certain that the overall quality of equipment and level of care (once you do see the doctor you need to see) is better in Sweden than it is even in Moscow or St Petersburg never mind some provincial town in rural Siberia, but I don't think it's entirely impossible that certain aspects of how healthcare operates in Russia might be better than how it is in Sweden. It's also entirely possible that, depending on what your individual situation and priorities are, that healthcare in Russia may be more suitable and appropriate for you than Swedish healthcare is. I'm also pretty sure that insisting 'you should be immediately skeptical of anything remotely pro-Russian' doesn't lead to fair and balanced discussions, but I guess the ship has sailed on that one, considering we've had multiple people claiming all Russians are dumb goblins that deserve to be exterminated and majority of this board being, well, on board with that. The OECD average of annual visits at the doctor is 6.9. In South Korea it's 14.7, that is +113% above the average. So people spend much less time per visit, but they visit a lot more frequently. An average time of 3 to 4 minutes spent at a doctor's office is thus effectively closer to 6 to 8 minutes. Suddenly things don't sound anywhere near as bad anymore. There are many ways data can be fudged with and I'm quite familiar with many of these ways. This is one of those ways. The anecdote of a friend living in Sweden doesn't suffice as evidence that things are worse in Sweden. Experiences vary heavily between regions and even between individual doctors. They also vary between the public sector and the private sector. There are too many confounding variables to consider anecdotes as valid counter arguments to country-wide data. Extremly funny when people who are not from Sweden and knows nothing about how our healthcare system works and it's challenges defend it from someone actually living in Sweden. He didnt say healthcare was better overall he stated that he had heard that it takes longer to recive primary care or non critical emergency care in Sweden compared to Russia. That's the two areas of our system that have large problems (for a variety of reasons). This is a known problem frequently discussed both in society and in the news. Many other countries have better access to primary care than Sweden if you don't compare cost of care, it's likely that Russia could be one of those.
This is what ZeroByte13 said:
"3. I heard many stories from colleagues that it's hard to get to doctor without waiting for months unless you feel really bad. Swedish healthcare seems to be overloaded and understaffed now. My colleagues say they usually don't even bother trying to get to doctor - it will take forever and won't help much.
In Russia I'd be able to get to most doctors the same day or maybe next one, and it's not that expensive for middle-class. But this is private healthcare sector which almost doesn't exist in Sweden as far as I know."
This claim is not about special treatment or emergency care, it's about unspecified general care including primary care (presumably mostly that, judging by the "unless you feel really bad" quote). It's basically about visits to general practitioners, and perhaps also referrals to specialists.
The other claim is that his colleagues "usually" don't bother going to the doctor because of wait times.
For these reasons I'm disputing his claims.
Furthermore - and I haven't addressed that part yet - ZB13 claims that there is no private healthcare sector in Sweden. This is false, as private healthcare is steadily growing and a strong competitor to the public sector.
His claims are 1) hearsay, 2) likely an apples to oranges comparison, and 3) false. I think I've shown that ZB13's claims distort reality.
a_ch has also stated before that he thinks Russia has worse healthcare.
If there is a problem with wait times in Sweden, then we at least know about them. My guess is that, if there are no reports of undue wait times in Russia, it's because we don't hear about them, and not because they aren't prevalent. Otherwise the overall healthcare ranking of the countries wouldn't make much sense.
Anything else or can we move on?
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Zero's post was personal/anecdotal and there was no pretense of it being anything else, it's a faux pas to start furiously googling to argue with his experience, especially since he didn't even specify where in Russia he was before and where in Sweden he is now.
I'm sure there's no city on the planet I could go to that I would find better in every single way than my current one or where I wouldn't miss how a bunch of things work here.
I swear if someone wrote "green is the best colour" on this forum some of you would get mad and spam a bunch of links with colour rankings to argue with them.
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All I can say I've seen the same with finish and Russian health care.
If you go to a specialist in saint Petersburg, you get an appointment right away and for cheaper.
So my wife had few time gone to Russia for some healthcare.
Not to say it's better, but sometimes it's more handy. Just like low cost airlines.
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Russian dudes, what are your opinion on prigozhin if he march to Moscow?
For or against disposing of Putin?
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On August 12 2023 21:39 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 21:03 Salazarz wrote:On August 12 2023 20:07 Magic Powers wrote:About the healthcare comparison between Russia, Sweden and so forth from a few pages ago, I'd like to remind: if something in this thread sounds even remotely pro-Russian, please be immediately skeptical. Sweden ranks 28th, while Russia ranks 58th. That's a relatively low rating for Sweden compared to its Scandinavian neighbors. Note that Russia ranks much lower, even lower than all the Baltic states or Italy. It's completely unsurprising that examples can be found of bad healthcare in Sweden and of good healthcare in Russia: that's because it's an apples to oranges comparison. Compare a region in Russia that offers higher quality healthcare to a region in Sweden that offers lower quality healthcare. In this way if you select a few anecdotes from individuals living in specific parts of each country, you can easily paint a completely backwards comparison between the countries. There are regions in the UK where healthcare is bad. Some regions are being mismanaged and/or underfunded. But the UK ranks 10th overall. This is because the overall ranking reflects the general state of the country, but not that of specific regions. Discrepancies exist in every country. Thus the conclusion from these anecdotes isn't that Russia is better in regards like healthcare. The conclusion is that an apples to oranges comparison was made for propaganda or other misinformation purposes. Some regions in Russia have good healthcare and in others it's bad. Overall it's certainly NOT better than in the EU. It's clearly worse. Whether that is due to underfunding and mismanaging, or due to Russia's unique geography, or a mix of both, is another question. We can conclude and speculate many things, but the claim that healthcare is better in Russia than in some EU countries is strictly false. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-worldYou can ignore the following example about Ireland, the above suffices for my argument.If someone wanted to paint Russia's healthcare as equal or better to the EU's, they could selectively point to Ireland where it's pretty bad. They have too few doctors and not enough hospital beds. Otherwise they're doing quite well, and somehow Irish people even have the highest life expectancy in the EU despite having the second highest rate of obesity. https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-healthcare-system-compared-to-eu-5778807-Jun2022/Here also a key observation is that Ireland has a unique geography. Not even one city in Ireland has a greater population density than Moscow. Age and distances also affect healthcare demand and supply. So for several reasons there's a lot of variation in the healthcare quality between Irish counties. You may note that Ireland actually spends quite a lot on healthcare and it still receives a low overall rating. Ranking complex institutions such as healthcare on a simple scale is an exercise in futility. There is no one country that is indisputably 'best' at every facet of healthcare, and there is no one country that is 'worst.' For example, according to your link, South Korea is ranked as #1 in the world. Yet, the average number of patients per nurse in South Korea is ~20, which is way below OECD average and leads to a healthcare system where inpatient care can only remain functional thanks to family assistance in all but the most expensive of private hospitals. It's also very uncommon for doctors to develop close relations with their patients so for folks with chronic conditions that require regular medical interventions it's just not a great place to be. Psychiatry and psychology here is also incredibly underdeveloped (pretty much non-existent outside of small private practices, actually). I don't live in Sweden, but I have a close friend who does. According to him, it can take weeks before you can get a simple checkup at a general practitioner. Anything that requires a specialist has to be booked way in advance; including acute care such as tooth pain or something. Now, I'm pretty certain that the overall quality of equipment and level of care (once you do see the doctor you need to see) is better in Sweden than it is even in Moscow or St Petersburg never mind some provincial town in rural Siberia, but I don't think it's entirely impossible that certain aspects of how healthcare operates in Russia might be better than how it is in Sweden. It's also entirely possible that, depending on what your individual situation and priorities are, that healthcare in Russia may be more suitable and appropriate for you than Swedish healthcare is. I'm also pretty sure that insisting 'you should be immediately skeptical of anything remotely pro-Russian' doesn't lead to fair and balanced discussions, but I guess the ship has sailed on that one, considering we've had multiple people claiming all Russians are dumb goblins that deserve to be exterminated and majority of this board being, well, on board with that. The OECD average of annual visits at the doctor is 6.9. In South Korea it's 14.7, that is +113% above the average. So people spend much less time per visit, but they visit a lot more frequently. An average time of 3 to 4 minutes spent at a doctor's office is thus effectively closer to 6 to 8 minutes. Suddenly things don't sound anywhere near as bad anymore. There are many ways data can be fudged with and I'm quite familiar with many of these ways. This is one of those ways. The anecdote of a friend living in Sweden doesn't suffice as evidence that things are worse in Sweden. Experiences vary heavily between regions and even between individual doctors. They also vary between the public sector and the private sector. There are too many confounding variables to consider anecdotes as valid counter arguments to country-wide data.
I don't even know what data fudging are you talking about here, or what does the number of annual visits to the doctor has to do with what I talked about? There are a lot of things Korean healthcare system does right, and for all I know if you were measuring some sort of aggregated average of all services and issues it may well be 'best in the world' -- but it's provably not best in the world at a whole bunch of things. If we're talking about mental health, Korea is most definitely not best in the world. If we are talking about inpatient care, it definitely isn't. If you were in need of a kidney transplant, you'd probably prefer to be in Russia rather than in Sweden, since wait lists in Russia are significantly shorter -- and you'd definitely prefer either of these countries to South Korea because despite Korea's supposed #1 ranked healthcare in the world, organ transplant wait lists here are incredibly long.
It's silly to try and reduce these kinds of nuances to a single list. Russia is a pretty crappy place to live in, everyone knows that already. There's no need to try and prove so hard that it's literally the worst at everything, every time.
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United States42509 Posts
On August 12 2023 21:27 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 20:54 Nezgar wrote:On August 12 2023 19:29 a_ch wrote:On August 12 2023 18:49 Nezgar wrote:
The ideology of Putin in particular and the vast majority of the government in general is clearly fascist, whether you want to acknowledge that or not.
When your leader is quoting fascists in public speeches, flying the corpse of a fascist thinker from another country to Russia to bury it there in a ceremony, align themselves with literal Nazi economists and thinkers that fled to Russia after not being welcome in other parts of the world, and base their entire political view and strategy around a hodgepodge mix of fascism, former Nazis and other batshit crazy philosophy, I think that it is fair to say that your country is run by fascists. If it walks like a fascist, if it talks like a fascist, it is a fucking fascist. -i'm very interested who is that Nazi economist (straight from the 3rd Reich I hope). More seriously, fascism is a very vague term. Some historians claim the political regimes in ancient Greece and Rome were fascist. Should we completely cancel them from the historical books? In my opinion your "I won't take a dump in the same field with a fascist" is itself more abnormal and totalitarian. What I think is an undeniable act of a fascist state - is to burn 50 people alive, and then let the perpetrators off the court. But you perhaps dont even know what i'm talking about, and how it is related to the war - because your media guides very carefully where you need to look, and where not. On August 12 2023 18:49 Nezgar wrote:
While it is true that quoting Wikipedia is poor form and frowned upon in academia, it still provides a lengthy list of sources at the bottom. So you are free to peruse that section and look at the sources at your own leisure. -i've managed to provide a certain piece of article of a decent reputation. It is not of my business to sort through all the internet for a possible contradiction to it. If @maybenexttime is sure that the claim is wrong, he is also better informed, and knows where to find the arguments against it. It is indeed someone straight from the 3rd Reich, though calling him an economist might have missed the mark a little. I am talking about Carl Schmitt, someone that Putin himself is clearly very fond of. Everything you said after that is some of the dumbest shit anyone can write. Condemning a political stance does not mean that you have to purge it from the history books. I know that Russians have a hard time understanding this, but you can look at the past through an objective lens and accept that things in the past have been atrocious and learn from that past to not repeat the same mistakes. And your claim of "Your dislike of totalitarianism is itself totalitarian" is just absurdly stupid. I am baffled that you can write that and not burst out laughing at your own nonsense. It's akin to saying "Your dislike of intolerant people makes you intolerant, so we are pretty much the same. Maybe you are even more intolerant because of it" and it's just... I don't even know, if you cannot see how absurd that stance is, no argument of reason will get past the defenses against logic and reason that you have erected around your worldview. You might just be irredeemably lost in your own bullshit with no interest to engage in honest or critical discourse. -but you make it not discussable yourself. You just label everyone you dislike a fascist, and thats it. I'm not familiar with Schmitt or Iliyin's works. If I've missed some clear fascistic statements or actions of my government - name it; besides that I don't see a point of discussion. And your claim on me needing to reflect on this matter is laughable - because what you wrote here is exactly the main discourse of a lot of Russian "liberals" from Novaya Gazeta. I know this stuff since the beginning of 2000's - they've been mass-producing this shit on American taxpayers money. This is similar to how every German is repeatedly told that they are the villains of Europe - to create a guilty complex for WW2, even in far descendants of the people, who actually took part in it. The difference between us is that I want the one who teaches me morales to behave appropriately, while you take the same shit at the face value.
Russia is absolutely and undeniably a fascist state and anyone saying otherwise is not paying attention or is willfully blind.
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EPT
