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United States43979 Posts
On August 12 2023 06:30 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 04:53 Magic Powers wrote:
Putin himself said that Ukraine is illegitimate and should not exist. That was his speech maybe a day or so before the start of the invasion. You can take him by his own words. You've made me read that wall of text for the first time. He never says that Ukraine is "illegitimate", this has been taken out of context from 21 feb. 2022 speech, where he describes the creation of Ukraine as a national state by revolutionaries in 1910s as arbitrary. A quote from 24 feb. 2022 speech, google translated from http://kremlin.ru/events/president/news/67843"As I said earlier, after the collapse of the USSR, Russia has accepted new geopolitical realities. We respect and will continue to treat all newly formed countries in the post-Soviet space with respect. We respect and will respect their sovereignty, and an example of this is the assistance we provided to Kazakhstan, which faced tragic events, a challenge to its statehood and integrity. But Russia cannot feel safe, develop, exist with a constant threat emanating from the territory of modern Ukraine." -isn't that quite different from "restoring the USSR, and returning control over Finland and Poland"?
What about that broadcast a month ago where someone found an old French map of Eastern Europe and he looked at it and went "hmm, interesting, Ukraine is not on this map, clearly Ukraine does not exist".
"The Soviet government created Soviet Ukraine. This is well known to everyone. Until then, there was never any Ukraine in the history of humanity," Putin said.
There are a few logical problems with that argument too. He was attempting to use the old map to prove that nobody called it Ukraine before the USSR by showing that on this one map it wasn't called Ukraine.
However that would only be evidence that showed it wasn't on that one map, not that nobody had ever called it that.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, saying that you can't find something in this one place only shows that you can't find it in that one place, not that it never existed at all.
Finding the word Ukraine on the map would prove that the area was definitely called Ukraine before the USSR but not finding it would not definitely prove that it wasn't. The map could show a positive but not a negative.
Also, fun fact, the map did actually disprove his whole claim. His argument was that he was right about Ukraine because if he was wrong the map would have the word Ukraine on it but the map didn't and therefore he was right. But the map did have the word Ukraine on it, cunningly placed where nobody would think to look. Ukraine.
Either Putin is an idiot or he thinks all Russians are idiots. Or both I guess.
https://www.businessinsider.com/putin-claims-map-proves-ukraine-not-real-despite-saying-ukraine-2023-5
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On August 12 2023 06:41 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 06:30 a_ch wrote:On August 12 2023 04:53 Magic Powers wrote:
Putin himself said that Ukraine is illegitimate and should not exist. That was his speech maybe a day or so before the start of the invasion. You can take him by his own words. You've made me read that wall of text for the first time. He never says that Ukraine is "illegitimate", this has been taken out of context from 21 feb. 2022 speech, where he describes the creation of Ukraine as a national state by revolutionaries in 1910s as arbitrary. A quote from 24 feb. 2022 speech, google translated from http://kremlin.ru/events/president/news/67843"As I said earlier, after the collapse of the USSR, Russia has accepted new geopolitical realities. We respect and will continue to treat all newly formed countries in the post-Soviet space with respect. We respect and will respect their sovereignty, and an example of this is the assistance we provided to Kazakhstan, which faced tragic events, a challenge to its statehood and integrity. But Russia cannot feel safe, develop, exist with a constant threat emanating from the territory of modern Ukraine." -isn't that quite different from "restoring the USSR, and returning control over Finland and Poland"? What about that broadcast a month ago where someone found an old French map of Eastern Europe and he looked at it and went "hmm, interesting, Ukraine is not on this map, clearly Ukraine does not exist". Show nested quote +"The Soviet government created Soviet Ukraine. This is well known to everyone. Until then, there was never any Ukraine in the history of humanity," Putin said. There are a few logical problems with that argument too. He was attempting to use the old map to prove that nobody called it Ukraine before the USSR by showing that on this one map it wasn't called Ukraine. However that would only be evidence that showed it wasn't on that one map, not that nobody had ever called it that. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, saying that you can't find something in this one place only shows that you can't find it in that one place, not that it never existed at all. Finding the word Ukraine on the map would prove that the area was definitely called Ukraine before the USSR but not finding it would not definitely prove that it wasn't. The map could show a positive but not a negative. Also, fun fact, the map did actually disprove his whole claim. His argument was that he was right about Ukraine because if he was wrong the map would have the word Ukraine on it but the map didn't and therefore he was right. But the map did have the word Ukraine on it, cunningly placed where nobody would think to look. Ukraine. Either Putin is an idiot or he thinks all Russians are idiots. Or both I guess. https://www.businessinsider.com/putin-claims-map-proves-ukraine-not-real-despite-saying-ukraine-2023-5
This is indeed super flawed logic. It really depends on what map you look at and from what period. If it came to it Poland and Lithuania might have claims to Ukraine, Mongolia might have claims to Russia etc. Until Ukraine declared independence in 1991 it was like 5 different things (and only one of those was Soviet Republic).
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United States43979 Posts
On August 12 2023 07:09 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Yep you got it.
Civilian casualties 2021. As I'm sure you recall, the argument that the SMO was necessary to end civilian loss of life was yours.
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On August 12 2023 07:14 KwarK wrote:Civilian casualties 2021. As I'm sure you recall, the argument that the SMO was necessary to end civilian loss of life was yours.
Yes and no I could have gotten into the rest but he did no need now.
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United States43979 Posts
On August 12 2023 07:22 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 07:14 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2023 07:09 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 10 2023 08:09 captainwaffles wrote:On August 10 2023 05:28 KwarK wrote:On August 10 2023 05:22 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 10 2023 05:20 KwarK wrote:
Sure, you're not an idiot because I'm saying it. You're an idiot because it is very obviously, very manifestly, completely undeniably, true from the things that you are saying.
I don't care what you think about me. I only know for a fact you are an idiot for thinking it. What were the civilian casualties in 2021? You’re justifying the Russian invasion on the basis of preventing civilian casualties so please go ahead and tell us what they were. https://www.unian.info/war/10416549-donbas-war-death-toll-rises-up-to-nearly-13-000-un.htmlRussian intel picked up a massive offensive planned for March 2022 and that's what finally prompted the special military operation. Russia Reveals Ukrainian Plan to Attack Donbass Regionhttps://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Russia-Reveals-Ukrainian-Plan-to-Attack-Donbass-Region-20220310-0003.htmlYou can say blah blah blah russian propaganda all you want, but this is the reality outside of the western media bubble. or as I like to call it, the Russian POV. Putin has said his only regret was not launching the SMO sooner, and I agree with him, the Russian Communist party was urging him to do it back in 2014 after the NATO coup in Kiev. https://cprf.ru/2022/03/russias-military-operation-in-ukraine-what-is-it-all-about/ Yep you got it. Civilian casualties 2021. As I'm sure you recall, the argument that the SMO was necessary to end civilian loss of life was yours. Yes and no I could have gotten into the rest but he did no need now.
What were the 2021 civilian casualties?
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On August 12 2023 07:23 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 07:22 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 12 2023 07:14 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2023 07:09 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 10 2023 08:09 captainwaffles wrote:On August 10 2023 05:28 KwarK wrote:On August 10 2023 05:22 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 10 2023 05:20 KwarK wrote:
Sure, you're not an idiot because I'm saying it. You're an idiot because it is very obviously, very manifestly, completely undeniably, true from the things that you are saying.
I don't care what you think about me. I only know for a fact you are an idiot for thinking it. What were the civilian casualties in 2021? You’re justifying the Russian invasion on the basis of preventing civilian casualties so please go ahead and tell us what they were. https://www.unian.info/war/10416549-donbas-war-death-toll-rises-up-to-nearly-13-000-un.htmlRussian intel picked up a massive offensive planned for March 2022 and that's what finally prompted the special military operation. Russia Reveals Ukrainian Plan to Attack Donbass Regionhttps://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Russia-Reveals-Ukrainian-Plan-to-Attack-Donbass-Region-20220310-0003.htmlYou can say blah blah blah russian propaganda all you want, but this is the reality outside of the western media bubble. or as I like to call it, the Russian POV. Putin has said his only regret was not launching the SMO sooner, and I agree with him, the Russian Communist party was urging him to do it back in 2014 after the NATO coup in Kiev. https://cprf.ru/2022/03/russias-military-operation-in-ukraine-what-is-it-all-about/ Yep you got it. Civilian casualties 2021. As I'm sure you recall, the argument that the SMO was necessary to end civilian loss of life was yours. Yes and no I could have gotten into the rest but he did no need now. What were the 2021 civilian casualties?
You can go figure that out.
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United States43979 Posts
On August 12 2023 07:23 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 07:23 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2023 07:22 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 12 2023 07:14 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2023 07:09 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 10 2023 08:09 captainwaffles wrote:On August 10 2023 05:28 KwarK wrote:On August 10 2023 05:22 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 10 2023 05:20 KwarK wrote:
Sure, you're not an idiot because I'm saying it. You're an idiot because it is very obviously, very manifestly, completely undeniably, true from the things that you are saying.
I don't care what you think about me. I only know for a fact you are an idiot for thinking it. What were the civilian casualties in 2021? You’re justifying the Russian invasion on the basis of preventing civilian casualties so please go ahead and tell us what they were. https://www.unian.info/war/10416549-donbas-war-death-toll-rises-up-to-nearly-13-000-un.htmlRussian intel picked up a massive offensive planned for March 2022 and that's what finally prompted the special military operation. Russia Reveals Ukrainian Plan to Attack Donbass Regionhttps://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Russia-Reveals-Ukrainian-Plan-to-Attack-Donbass-Region-20220310-0003.htmlYou can say blah blah blah russian propaganda all you want, but this is the reality outside of the western media bubble. or as I like to call it, the Russian POV. Putin has said his only regret was not launching the SMO sooner, and I agree with him, the Russian Communist party was urging him to do it back in 2014 after the NATO coup in Kiev. https://cprf.ru/2022/03/russias-military-operation-in-ukraine-what-is-it-all-about/ Yep you got it. Civilian casualties 2021. As I'm sure you recall, the argument that the SMO was necessary to end civilian loss of life was yours. Yes and no I could have gotten into the rest but he did no need now. What were the 2021 civilian casualties? You can go figure that out.
I know what they were. I gave you the data. I want you to tell us though. Because, as I'm sure you recall, you used that data to support an argument that Putin's invasion would stop the civilian casualties. Please go ahead and tell us all the data that supports your argument. It is, after all, your argument. You believe in it. Have some pride in your beliefs man.
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On August 12 2023 07:25 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 07:23 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 12 2023 07:23 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2023 07:22 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 12 2023 07:14 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2023 07:09 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 10 2023 08:09 captainwaffles wrote:On August 10 2023 05:28 KwarK wrote:On August 10 2023 05:22 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 10 2023 05:20 KwarK wrote:
Sure, you're not an idiot because I'm saying it. You're an idiot because it is very obviously, very manifestly, completely undeniably, true from the things that you are saying.
I don't care what you think about me. I only know for a fact you are an idiot for thinking it. What were the civilian casualties in 2021? You’re justifying the Russian invasion on the basis of preventing civilian casualties so please go ahead and tell us what they were. https://www.unian.info/war/10416549-donbas-war-death-toll-rises-up-to-nearly-13-000-un.htmlRussian intel picked up a massive offensive planned for March 2022 and that's what finally prompted the special military operation. Russia Reveals Ukrainian Plan to Attack Donbass Regionhttps://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Russia-Reveals-Ukrainian-Plan-to-Attack-Donbass-Region-20220310-0003.htmlYou can say blah blah blah russian propaganda all you want, but this is the reality outside of the western media bubble. or as I like to call it, the Russian POV. Putin has said his only regret was not launching the SMO sooner, and I agree with him, the Russian Communist party was urging him to do it back in 2014 after the NATO coup in Kiev. https://cprf.ru/2022/03/russias-military-operation-in-ukraine-what-is-it-all-about/ Yep you got it. Civilian casualties 2021. As I'm sure you recall, the argument that the SMO was necessary to end civilian loss of life was yours. Yes and no I could have gotten into the rest but he did no need now. What were the 2021 civilian casualties? You can go figure that out. I know what they were. I gave you the data. I want you to tell us though. Because, as I'm sure you recall, you used that data to support an argument that Putin's invasion would stop the civilian casualties. Please go ahead and tell us all the data that supports that.
Not really. You're free to interpret what you read the way that you want.
I'll add something for you though, believe me or don't. I knew about the russian intel on an offensive that captainwaffles gave a source for. I didn't talk about it immediately because to support my point I'd have to link you a source that I avoid posting about publicly. Some sources are difficult to talk about and a bunch of people would usually try to ridicule you. I don't really want it. I posted that source publicly elsewhere. Don't think I want to do it here, not now. Sry.
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United States43979 Posts
On August 12 2023 07:26 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 07:25 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2023 07:23 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 12 2023 07:23 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2023 07:22 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 12 2023 07:14 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2023 07:09 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Yep you got it. Civilian casualties 2021. As I'm sure you recall, the argument that the SMO was necessary to end civilian loss of life was yours. Yes and no I could have gotten into the rest but he did no need now. What were the 2021 civilian casualties? You can go figure that out. I know what they were. I gave you the data. I want you to tell us though. Because, as I'm sure you recall, you used that data to support an argument that Putin's invasion would stop the civilian casualties. Please go ahead and tell us all the data that supports that. Not really. You're free to interpret what you read the way that you want.
You posted the 3400 number when you believed that it supported your argument. You stood by that 3400 number. You were very proud of that 3400 number a few days ago.
I'm just asking you the totals by year within your 3400 number that you strongly believe in. That's not making an argument against you or your data, I'm just asking for facts. Your facts. Why are you no longer willing to talk about your 3400 number?
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On August 12 2023 07:30 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 07:26 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 12 2023 07:25 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2023 07:23 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 12 2023 07:23 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2023 07:22 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 12 2023 07:14 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2023 07:09 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Yep you got it. Civilian casualties 2021. As I'm sure you recall, the argument that the SMO was necessary to end civilian loss of life was yours. Yes and no I could have gotten into the rest but he did no need now. What were the 2021 civilian casualties? You can go figure that out. I know what they were. I gave you the data. I want you to tell us though. Because, as I'm sure you recall, you used that data to support an argument that Putin's invasion would stop the civilian casualties. Please go ahead and tell us all the data that supports that. Not really. You're free to interpret what you read the way that you want. You posted the 3400 number when you believed that it supported your argument. You stood by that 3400 number. You were very proud of that 3400 number a few days ago. I'm just asking you the totals by year within your 3400 number that you strongly believe in. That's not making an argument against you or your data, I'm just asking for facts. Your facts. Why are you no longer willing to talk about your 3400 number?
It's not about pride. You got your answer up here.
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United States43979 Posts
On August 12 2023 07:34 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 07:30 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2023 07:26 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 12 2023 07:25 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2023 07:23 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 12 2023 07:23 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2023 07:22 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 12 2023 07:14 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2023 07:09 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Yep you got it. Civilian casualties 2021. As I'm sure you recall, the argument that the SMO was necessary to end civilian loss of life was yours. Yes and no I could have gotten into the rest but he did no need now. What were the 2021 civilian casualties? You can go figure that out. I know what they were. I gave you the data. I want you to tell us though. Because, as I'm sure you recall, you used that data to support an argument that Putin's invasion would stop the civilian casualties. Please go ahead and tell us all the data that supports that. Not really. You're free to interpret what you read the way that you want. You posted the 3400 number when you believed that it supported your argument. You stood by that 3400 number. You were very proud of that 3400 number a few days ago. I'm just asking you the totals by year within your 3400 number that you strongly believe in. That's not making an argument against you or your data, I'm just asking for facts. Your facts. Why are you no longer willing to talk about your 3400 number? It's not about pride. You got your answer up here.
It seems like you're no longer standing behind the argument that the 3400 civilian deaths in the 2014-2021 period present a justification for immediate invasion to end the bloodshed. Is it fair to say you're now standing behind a new argument about future civilian casualties, not past ones?
If so, would you still use the argument you previously attempted two days ago or have you learned some new information that is critically damaging to that argument?
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He knows he's full of shit. A few pages from now he will pretend the whole exchange never happened and will spout that nonsense all over again.
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On August 12 2023 06:30 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 04:53 Magic Powers wrote:
Putin himself said that Ukraine is illegitimate and should not exist. That was his speech maybe a day or so before the start of the invasion. You can take him by his own words. You've made me read that wall of text for the first time. He never says that Ukraine is "illegitimate", this has been taken out of context from 21 feb. 2022 speech, where he describes the creation of Ukraine as a national state by revolutionaries in 1910s as arbitrary. A quote from 24 feb. 2022 speech, google translated from http://kremlin.ru/events/president/news/67843"As I said earlier, after the collapse of the USSR, Russia has accepted new geopolitical realities. We respect and will continue to treat all newly formed countries in the post-Soviet space with respect. We respect and will respect their sovereignty, and an example of this is the assistance we provided to Kazakhstan, which faced tragic events, a challenge to its statehood and integrity. But Russia cannot feel safe, develop, exist with a constant threat emanating from the territory of modern Ukraine." -isn't that quite different from "restoring the USSR, and returning control over Finland and Poland"?
[ ...] "Modern Ukraine was entirely and fully created by Russia, more specifically the Bolshevik, communist Russia," Putin said. "This process began practically immediately after the 1917 revolution, and moreover Lenin and his associates did it..."[...]
https://www.deccanherald.com/world/putin-calls-ukrainian-statehood-a-fiction-history-suggests-otherwise-1083947.html
Entirely and fully created by Russia. After the 1917 revolution.
Any more questions?
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United States43979 Posts
What's weird is that they had their own language given they were artificially created and there was no preexisting national group there. It must have been a colossal effort to invent Ukraine entirely overnight like that.
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On August 12 2023 07:37 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 07:34 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 12 2023 07:30 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2023 07:26 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 12 2023 07:25 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2023 07:23 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 12 2023 07:23 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2023 07:22 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 12 2023 07:14 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2023 07:09 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
[quote]
Yep you got it. Civilian casualties 2021. As I'm sure you recall, the argument that the SMO was necessary to end civilian loss of life was yours. Yes and no I could have gotten into the rest but he did no need now. What were the 2021 civilian casualties? You can go figure that out. I know what they were. I gave you the data. I want you to tell us though. Because, as I'm sure you recall, you used that data to support an argument that Putin's invasion would stop the civilian casualties. Please go ahead and tell us all the data that supports that. Not really. You're free to interpret what you read the way that you want. You posted the 3400 number when you believed that it supported your argument. You stood by that 3400 number. You were very proud of that 3400 number a few days ago. I'm just asking you the totals by year within your 3400 number that you strongly believe in. That's not making an argument against you or your data, I'm just asking for facts. Your facts. Why are you no longer willing to talk about your 3400 number? It's not about pride. You got your answer up here. It seems like you're no longer standing behind the argument that the 3400 civilian deaths in the 2014-2021 period present a justification for immediate invasion to end the bloodshed. Is it fair to say you're now standing behind a new argument about future civilian casualties, not past ones? If so, would you still use the argument you previously attempted two days ago or have you learned some new information that is critically damaging to that argument?
No I merely started to state some facts about what was going on that started these events and where it's at now.
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United States43979 Posts
And what was going on? Specifically in the years 2019-2021. Please share your facts about what was going on.
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On August 12 2023 07:48 KwarK wrote:
And what was going on? Specifically in the years 2019-2021. Please share your facts about what was going on.
No I'm done discussing this here for now sorry. Maybe later.
Edit: It is my understanding that at that time, slow shelling of Donbass by Ukraine was still going on, blaming Russia for it.
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More Putin quotes on Ukraine's statehood:
"As a result of Bolshevik policy, Soviet Ukraine arose, which even today can with good reason be called 'Vladimir Ilyich Lenin's Ukraine'. He is its author and architect. This is fully confirmed by archive documents ... And now grateful descendants have demolished monuments to Lenin in Ukraine. This is what they call decommunisation. Do you want decommunisation? Well, that suits us just fine. But it is unnecessary, as they say, to stop halfway. We are ready to show you what real decommunisation means for Ukraine."
"Ukraine never had a tradition of genuine statehood."
"Russia assumed obligations to repay the entire Soviet debt in return for the newly independent states giving up part of their foreign assets. In 1994, such agreements were reached with Ukraine, but they were not ratified by Ukraine...
"(Ukraine) preferred to act in such a way that in relations with Russia they had all the rights and advantages, but did not bear any obligations...
"From the very first steps they began to build their statehood on the denial of everything that unites us. They tried to distort the consciousness, the historical memory of millions of people, entire generations living in Ukraine."
Link below for more quotes.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/extracts-putins-speech-ukraine-2022-02-21/
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EPT
