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Russian Federation240 Posts
On August 11 2023 08:16 JimmiC wrote:
My other question that is probably harder and more charged is I notice a lot of the pro Russian posters really dislike the western democracies. I’m not a huge fan of the US’s system but when you look at some of say the Scandinavian countries that are close to you like Finland for example. What is it about their system that is worse than the Russian one? For me when I look at their “package”(can not think of a better word). Everything seems better, from healthcare to education to freedom.
let me also try to answer this. I've been to several European countries (including Scandinavia (Denmark)), and also my sister lives in Germany (Munich) since 2016, so I have a lot of material to do comparisons.
By no means I think that the EU countries (at least those that I've seen) have a system that is strictly worse to Russia's.
In terms of healthcare - imho, Russia is worse. Most of the provincial hospitals have worse technical equipment, than, for example, in Germany. I've personally encountered cases of very low quality medical services in my hometown; perhaps it is better in Moscow (as usually high-quality professionals in Russia tend to flock there for higher salaries), but I haven't interacted with the healthcare system here a lot.
I know a lot about education system - since I work as an assistent prof. in a top russian university. I'd say that overall education system (at least in STEM) in Russia is significantly better than in Europe. It is free, there are at least a dozen of universities with very good staff, and (which I think is the most important, as the first two things are also true for some of the EU countries) a lot of very motivated students, who make education very competitive. The motivation is due to popularity of jobs in IT, and overall this sphere is also significantly more developed here compared to Europe.
In terms of overall freedom - that's an interesting part. We certainly have less political (electoral) freedom, but in the retrospective I see it as a reasonable measure against external influence (the extreme opposite case - the elections in Ukraine, where Zelensky came to power on the promises to make a peace agreement with Russia). At the same time, on the individual level there is a lot of freedom, in some aspects even more than in the EU. For example, apartments and housings are much more affordable here, - so one doesn't have to spend most of his life paying the mortgage.
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On August 11 2023 17:57 0x64 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2023 17:35 Magic Powers wrote:On August 11 2023 17:04 0x64 wrote:On August 11 2023 10:24 ZeroByte13 wrote:On August 11 2023 08:16 JimmiC wrote:
Do you have the ability to get all the ingredients as before? How about finished snacks? Selection might be worse in luxury sector but what most people buy in their day-to-day life didn't change much. I'm living in Sweden now - local grocery stores have more stuff, and my wife says there's significantly more choice, but it was that way before the war too. And I lived in a provincial city, mind you. So sanction don't seem to change much in that area at least. On August 11 2023 08:16 JimmiC wrote:
I’m not a huge fan of the US’s system but when you look at some of say the Scandinavian countries that are close to you like Finland for example. What is it about their system that is worse than the Russian one? For me when I look at their “package”(can not think of a better word). Everything seems better, from healthcare to education to freedom. I'm not against Western democracies, I'm living in one now. So, comparing to Sweden - many services are better in Russia, especially if you're middle class or close to it. Much cheaper and quite better at the same time. 1. From my wife's words, manicure / pedicure and stuff like that is both much, much more expensive here and provides significantly less options at the same time. 2. Delivery service here is laughably bad compared to Russia. It looks like in Russia they really don't want to lose you as a customer, and here they barely care. 3. I heard many stories from colleagues that it's hard to get to doctor without waiting for months unless you feel really bad. Swedish healthcare seems to be overloaded and understaffed now. My colleagues say they usually don't even bother trying to get to doctor - it will take forever and won't help much. In Russia I'd be able to get to most doctors the same day or maybe next one, and it's not that expensive for middle-class. But this is private healthcare sector which almost doesn't exist in Sweden as far as I know. 4. Public transport between cities seems to be more developed in Russia, but I might be wrong - I didn't travel much back in Russia, and I don't travel often here. Just a first impression. My colleague (who also moved to Sweden from Russia) travels more often and complains a lot. 5. Getting your documents in order as an immigrant takes a few days, maybe a week in Russia - and a few months here in Sweden. And without those documents you can't do much - rent an appartment, have broadband internet, etc. Of course, many other things are better here in Sweden - but not everything and not even 80-90%. There are many services/areas here that are not as good/developed as they are in Russia, at least in my eyes. Still I like it here more because... you know... reasons. Can confirm pretty much these from my own experience. Also sanctions are pretty much useless but they do start to affect prices, but nothing impossible. And you can really see that until there is a large mobilisation that start picking city kids, city kids try to fly under the radar having soft opinions about the war as you have no benefit risking having an opinion. Like Ardias said, even factual posting about war can be seen as anti-russian. While same facts are seen by us as pro-war. Russia is a culture that westerners don't understand. Like we have seen in this thread, Slav culture does not deal in absolute. Having a history of 100 year of communist make truth a questionable concept, and why not, if the leaders can chose their own truth, who am I to question that. Also Russian have a great fear of disorganisation, that's the reason why communism ended up in such a quiet way and a new leader was accepted etc... That's the reason you don't see a revolution. Russians are very well educated, the big difference with French people for example is that there is no improvisation or thinking outside the box. Unless it is needed for basic functionality and survival, then there is a lot of imagination on how to repair something or get materials to do stuff. The most simple way to think like a russian is to think 1. Things could get worse if we try to do something about it. 2. It is someone else job to think. Be it as weird as it may, this appeals to some westerners as well, many dictatorships have existed in Europe as well, and they were no so easy to get rid of. We can see in this forum that no everyone is able to conceive all these ideas as it get complicated and we are not all born equal in education and IQ but we have equal right to write in forums. When you grow up in a highly oppressive environment, wherever that may be (home, country, church, etc.), you have every reason to learn to lie and keep your head down as a means to protect your physical and mental health and to live a life worth living, as well as to protect those close to you. In Russia this mentality spread through the generations and became a way of life. This is why it's the most corrupt country in Europe, because that's how people survive. In North Korea the black market helps people survive the oppression. In Russia it's very similar. This is why I'm always so quick to defend Russians who fall for propaganda and lies from the Putin regime. While some consider it a moral failing in all or most cases, I certainly don't. I see it as a necessary answer to the overwhelming political threat. Yes, but also you will notice that the most vocal defenders of the politics and the war are usually outside Russia, and that makes very little sense, except for Zeo who was bombed as a child by NATO so being anti-NATO and seeing them as the ultimate power that rules the world makes sense given that most country that helps Ukraine are NATO members (But many are not)
That's right. Morally I will not defend people living in a very free country as captainwaffles does. With zeo it makes more sense.
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On August 11 2023 10:24 ZeroByte13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2023 08:16 JimmiC wrote:
Do you have the ability to get all the ingredients as before? How about finished snacks? Selection might be worse in luxury sector but what most people buy in their day-to-day life didn't change much. I'm living in Sweden now - local grocery stores have more stuff, and my wife says there's significantly more choice, but it was that way before the war too. And I lived in a provincial city, mind you. So sanction don't seem to change much in that area at least. Show nested quote +On August 11 2023 08:16 JimmiC wrote:
I’m not a huge fan of the US’s system but when you look at some of say the Scandinavian countries that are close to you like Finland for example. What is it about their system that is worse than the Russian one? For me when I look at their “package”(can not think of a better word). Everything seems better, from healthcare to education to freedom. I'm not against Western democracies, I'm living in one now. So, comparing to Sweden - many services are better in Russia, especially if you're middle class or close to it. Much cheaper and quite better at the same time. 1. From my wife's words, manicure / pedicure and stuff like that is both much, much more expensive here and provides significantly less options at the same time. 2. Delivery service here is laughably bad compared to Russia. It looks like in Russia they really don't want to lose you as a customer, and here they barely care. 3. I heard many stories from colleagues that it's hard to get to doctor without waiting for months unless you feel really bad. Swedish healthcare seems to be overloaded and understaffed now. My colleagues say they usually don't even bother trying to get to doctor - it will take forever and won't help much. In Russia I'd be able to get to most doctors the same day or maybe next one, and it's not that expensive for middle-class. But this is private healthcare sector which almost doesn't exist in Sweden as far as I know. 4. Public transport between cities seems to be more developed in Russia, but I might be wrong - I didn't travel much back in Russia, and I don't travel often here. Just a first impression. My colleague (who also moved to Sweden from Russia) travels more often and complains a lot. 5. Getting your documents in order as an immigrant takes a few days, maybe a week in Russia - and a few months here in Sweden. And without those documents you can't do much - rent an appartment, have broadband internet, etc. Of course, many other things are better here in Sweden - but not everything and not even 80-90%. There are many services/areas here that are not as good/developed as they are in Russia, at least in my eyes. Still I like it here more because... you know... reasons.
1. Can't say much about it, but doesn't seem to be a real problem according to most of my friends.
2. Last year I used delivery maybe 10-12 times, and I only had a problem once (and that was a problem with the store that received it, not the delivery system). So yeah, we joke about how bad PostNord is, but in reality there are few problems.
3. Sweden has a very big private health care, this is actually a problem that is growing the last 20-30 years. But it's not hard to find and meet a doctor, at least not if you live in a city. Also easy to see a physiotherapist etc.
4. I don't know about Russia but we have a well developed train system which I use extensively in Sweden. I've never had a problem, but of course there will be others who have had problems. We had a derailing recently. Also super easy to rent a car and drive. I don't believe Russia is better until I hear more than "my friend complains a lot".
5. Yes, I think when it comes to immigration we are bad, but I don't see any proof that Russia is better. If you plan to come and live here you have an obligation to prepare yourself and learn the system. Other considerations of refugees of course.
All in all I don't think you have built close to a case that Sweden might be worse than Russia (in even a single area). And when you take other freedoms into consideration. You also have to look at Russia as the federation it is. Where some people are more people than other, and of course "Russia" is privileged compared to other states. Russia is an empire that subjugates smaller states, just as it is trying to do to Ukraine. And when thinking about the standard of living in the country, you also have to take the subjugated states into consideration.
With that said in my opinion Sweden has been going the wrong way for the last 30 years (although it has somewhat started to turn around), but compared to Russia, nah.
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On August 11 2023 20:52 SamuelGreen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2023 10:24 ZeroByte13 wrote:On August 11 2023 08:16 JimmiC wrote:
Do you have the ability to get all the ingredients as before? How about finished snacks? Selection might be worse in luxury sector but what most people buy in their day-to-day life didn't change much. I'm living in Sweden now - local grocery stores have more stuff, and my wife says there's significantly more choice, but it was that way before the war too. And I lived in a provincial city, mind you. So sanction don't seem to change much in that area at least. On August 11 2023 08:16 JimmiC wrote:
I’m not a huge fan of the US’s system but when you look at some of say the Scandinavian countries that are close to you like Finland for example. What is it about their system that is worse than the Russian one? For me when I look at their “package”(can not think of a better word). Everything seems better, from healthcare to education to freedom. I'm not against Western democracies, I'm living in one now. So, comparing to Sweden - many services are better in Russia, especially if you're middle class or close to it. Much cheaper and quite better at the same time. 1. From my wife's words, manicure / pedicure and stuff like that is both much, much more expensive here and provides significantly less options at the same time. 2. Delivery service here is laughably bad compared to Russia. It looks like in Russia they really don't want to lose you as a customer, and here they barely care. 3. I heard many stories from colleagues that it's hard to get to doctor without waiting for months unless you feel really bad. Swedish healthcare seems to be overloaded and understaffed now. My colleagues say they usually don't even bother trying to get to doctor - it will take forever and won't help much. In Russia I'd be able to get to most doctors the same day or maybe next one, and it's not that expensive for middle-class. But this is private healthcare sector which almost doesn't exist in Sweden as far as I know. 4. Public transport between cities seems to be more developed in Russia, but I might be wrong - I didn't travel much back in Russia, and I don't travel often here. Just a first impression. My colleague (who also moved to Sweden from Russia) travels more often and complains a lot. 5. Getting your documents in order as an immigrant takes a few days, maybe a week in Russia - and a few months here in Sweden. And without those documents you can't do much - rent an appartment, have broadband internet, etc. Of course, many other things are better here in Sweden - but not everything and not even 80-90%. There are many services/areas here that are not as good/developed as they are in Russia, at least in my eyes. Still I like it here more because... you know... reasons. 1. Can't say much about it, but doesn't seem to be a real problem according to most of my friends. 2. Last year I used delivery maybe 10-12 times, and I only had a problem once (and that was a problem with the store that received it, not the delivery system). So yeah, we joke about how bad PostNord is, but in reality there are few problems. 3. Sweden has a very big private health care, this is actually a problem that is growing the last 20-30 years. But it's not hard to find and meet a doctor, at least not if you live in a city. Also easy to see a physiotherapist etc. 4. I don't know about Russia but we have a well developed train system which I use extensively in Sweden. I've never had a problem, but of course there will be others who have had problems. We had a derailing recently. Also super easy to rent a car and drive. I don't believe Russia is better until I hear more than "my friend complains a lot". 5. Yes, I think when it comes to immigration we are bad, but I don't see any proof that Russia is better. If you plan to come and live here you have an obligation to prepare yourself and learn the system. Other considerations of refugees of course. All in all I don't think you have built close to a case that Sweden might be worse than Russia (in even a single area). And when you take other freedoms into consideration. You also have to look at Russia as the federation it is. Where some people are more people than other, and of course "Russia" is privileged compared to other states. Russia is an empire that subjugates smaller states, just as it is trying to do to Ukraine. And when thinking about the standard of living in the country, you also have to take the subjugated states into consideration. With that said in my opinion Sweden has been going the wrong way for the last 30 years (although it has somewhat started to turn around), but compared to Russia, nah.
Nah dude, he's pretty spot on. He was asked to do a comparison and he pointed out the main problem areas in Sweden.
1. I have no idea my wife doesn't have anything to compare too so she doesn't complain.
2. For shipping stuff yourself? I have heard some stories about PostNord but ordering things online usually works really well. Depends on what you choose of course (I have Prime so Amazon is really good).
3. I work in healthcare and this is extremely true. If you get cancer the care is extremely good and free. If you have a persistent itch in your ass good luck solving that. It's not something you realise until you get kids or grow old (especially not if you can just self treat many things). However you can solve all of this with a private insurance. Not sure how much it is but many senior positions have it as a standard benefit these days. I have yet to use mine but supposedly you get to see a specialist in about 3 days, 7 days maximum.
4. I have personal experience of trains sucking most of the time and it's the biggest problem for most of my coworkers in their daily commute. Just google it, so many articles about the problem.
5. He's talking about immigration as a skilled worker from a non EU country. It's that bad because they didn't separate refuge immigration from workers. We have a company contracted to help people in our company (who in turn are paid by their home country so it's not even about economic issues) and there are STILL issues that takes month to resolve.
Also the university problems is spot on. I have some teaching experience in STEAM and still talk to people in academia and 1,2 is not a problem but 3 is a HUGE problem. Literally read an article in the news about it today as well...
Many universities would probably collapse if they didn't import PhD students and postdocs from outside the EU (India but of course Russia and many other countries as well).
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On August 11 2023 20:52 SamuelGreen wrote:
1. Can't say much about it, but doesn't seem to be a real problem according to most of my friends. I have no idea about prices or options in Russia - it's all from my wife's words.
On August 11 2023 20:52 SamuelGreen wrote:
2. Last year I used delivery maybe 10-12 times, and I only had a problem once (and that was a problem with the store that received it, not the delivery system). So yeah, we joke about how bad PostNord is, but in reality there are few problems. It could be that I'm very unlucky but out of 4 deliveries in the last week...
1. One was fine (IKEA)
2. One forgot half of my things, they didn't want to take the blame, and only after 2 days they said "oh yeah, now we found your missing items".
3. Third one - Postnord - sent me a message saying they'll come "today 17-22" and then only came 2-3 days later.
4. Another one is yet to be delivered, bit it will take 20 (!) days. I never had deliveries take longer than a few days in Russia.
Also I order food once week here, and in 1 year I had my order messed up - wrong items, not delivered at all or half of items missing - more times that I had in my entire life in Russia, and there I used to order food at least 2 times a week.
Two times about 50% of my order was missing and they compensated me with... ~15% of order cost. Yes, 15%.
And local KFC and Burger King are like 5x dirtier than their counterpart in my hometown in Russia, they're unbelievable dirty in comparison. Same with some grocery stores, to be honest.
On August 11 2023 20:52 SamuelGreen wrote:
3. Sweden has a very big private health care, this is actually a problem that is growing the last 20-30 years. But it's not hard to find and meet a doctor, at least not if you live in a city. Also easy to see a physiotherapist etc. Okay, maybe all my colleagues lied to me - I haven't used this system yet myself, so I only know what my colleagues tell me. What I mentioned - them not even bothering with trying to get to doctor - is basically a quote, I didn't make it up.
On August 11 2023 20:52 SamuelGreen wrote:
4. I don't know about Russia but we have a well developed train system which I use extensively in Sweden. I've never had a problem, but of course there will be others who have had problems. We had a derailing recently. Also super easy to rent a car and drive. I don't believe Russia is better until I hear more than "my friend complains a lot". Again, I didn't travel much here, but from what I noticed there are few trains that go overnight, which I prefer if travel takes more than 6 hours. Other than that I mostly rely on what my colleague says who travels here more than me.
Oh, and that one time I needed to go to Stockholm my Swedish colleagues told me - "oh you plan to use trains? haha, good luck with that".
The trip went fine - but they really said this, I'm not making it up. And a Ukranian woman I met on the train told me that too about the trains here btw. She's living in Enköping. Also she said local grocery stores are the dirtiest stores she had ever seen.
On August 11 2023 20:52 SamuelGreen wrote:
5. Yes, I think when it comes to immigration we are bad, but I don't see any proof that Russia is better. What kind of proof do you want? I know people from other countries who were able to rent appartments and have internet in a week after coming to Russia, i.e. they had all the required documents after one week.
On August 11 2023 20:52 SamuelGreen wrote:
With that said in my opinion Sweden has been going the wrong way for the last 30 years (although it has somewhat started to turn around), but compared to Russia, nah. I didn't say anything about what country goes what way.
I live here so obviously as a "full package" I prefer Sweden now.
I only said that some services seem to be not as good/convenient here in Sweden. And there are quite a few of them.
You might not believe me, it's your choice, but unless you lived in both countries I'll trust my experience more as I lived in both. I was asked what is better in Russia (in my opinion) and I answered from my experience.
Saying Sweden simply cannot be worse than Russia even in a single area just shows how little you know about life in Russia. I'd say it's better here in overall, but every single area - it's... either wishful thinking or a result of very biased sources.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On August 11 2023 22:40 JimmiC wrote:
Thank you for all the good information.
Edit: I think my biggest point of confusion is a_ch being mad at "western media" reporting that Russia was just posturing indirectly costing him money, and not really mad at the Russian Government attacking and directly causing his loss as well as super high inflation. No media anywhere has accurately predicted what was going to happen before or really what has happened since. There is one person, or one small group of elites depending on how you look at this who created this and have continued it. You can try to blame whoever, but if Russia just pulled back to their own borders it would be over, even most if not all the sanctions would be gone.
-at the beginning of the war I was very confused and pissed becaused that failed all my plans, and it took me some time to start understanding what's going on.
And no, in my opinion, Putin has a significant share of blame. Another share goes to the US administration - they (Putin included) are bloodthirsty warmongers, stuck in empirial mentality. And Zelensky's fault is for betraying his voters - by allowing a proxy war to start in his country.
Upd. IMO, western media is just a tool in all of this; my negativity towards them is simply because I was stupid enough to be fooled by them during a long period of time.
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Yes, damn Zelensky for not giving more land to Russia, after which Russia would just take more land, and more land until they have all of Ukraine.
And damn the US for making Russia invade Ukraine through the power of their mind control dolphins.
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On August 12 2023 03:31 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2023 22:40 JimmiC wrote:
Thank you for all the good information.
Edit: I think my biggest point of confusion is a_ch being mad at "western media" reporting that Russia was just posturing indirectly costing him money, and not really mad at the Russian Government attacking and directly causing his loss as well as super high inflation. No media anywhere has accurately predicted what was going to happen before or really what has happened since. There is one person, or one small group of elites depending on how you look at this who created this and have continued it. You can try to blame whoever, but if Russia just pulled back to their own borders it would be over, even most if not all the sanctions would be gone. -at the beginning of the war I was very confused and pissed becaused that failed all my plans. And no, in my opinion, Putin has a significant share of blame. Another share goes to the US administration - they (Putin included) are bloodthirsty warmongers, stuck in empirial mentality. And Zelensky's fault is for betraying his voters - by allowing a proxy war to start in his country.
I'm sorry but the blame is 100% on Putin and Russia. This war is just a desperate attempt to make Russia an empire again, and also a continuation to earlier Russian imperialist policies. Russia's leadership has constantly talked how letting go of former USSR and Russian states was a mistake and that they should be returned to Russian control (even countries like Finland and Poland).
As for the proxy war thing. Lol, lmao. Should Zelensky just let his country be run over by this band of murderers and rapists? We all know that Ukrainians would have a way shitter time as a people under Russian control. Ukraine wants to fight for it's independence and territory and USA and western countries are more than justified in supporting Ukraine. In fact, they should honestly support Ukraine more, because if Russia wasn't stopped here, they would've just moved to the next country with the same excuses.
You can criticize USA for a lot of terrible foreign policy choices. Supporting Ukraine is not one of those.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On August 12 2023 03:34 Gorsameth wrote:
Yes, damn Zelensky for not giving more land to Russia, after which Russia would just take more land, and more land until they have all of Ukraine.
And damn the US for making Russia invade Ukraine through the power of their mind control dolphins.
Zelensky had two options:
1. follow the Minsk agreements (and later - the Stambul agreements). The former would even make Luhansk and Donetsk regions return to Ukraine, and (I repeat) this was at the core of his election campaign.
2. continue the chicken game, which he knew would start a war (this is clear, for example, from his interview to WaPo, https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/08/16/zelensky-interview-transcript/. A quote: "You can’t simply say to me, “Listen, you should start to prepare people now and tell them they need to put away money, they need to store up food.” If we had communicated that — and that is what some people wanted, who I will not name — then I would have been losing $7 billion a month since last October, and at the moment when the Russians did attack, they would have taken us in three days"
I cannot even fathom, what kind of victory he hoped to have.
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United States42717 Posts
Zelensky did not cause Russia to invade Ukraine. There is exactly one party at fault here. Anything else is classic victim blaming.
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On August 12 2023 03:53 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 03:34 Gorsameth wrote:
Yes, damn Zelensky for not giving more land to Russia, after which Russia would just take more land, and more land until they have all of Ukraine.
And damn the US for making Russia invade Ukraine through the power of their mind control dolphins.
Zelensky had two options: 1. follow the Minsk agreements (and later - the Stambul agreements). The former would even make Luhansk and Donetsk regions return to Ukraine, and (I repeat) this was at the core of his election campaign. 2. continue the chicken game, which he knew would start a war (this is clear, for example, from his interview to WaPo, https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/08/16/zelensky-interview-transcript/. A quote: "You can’t simply say to me, “Listen, you should start to prepare people now and tell them they need to put away money, they need to store up food.” If we had communicated that — and that is what some people wanted, who I will not name — then I would have been losing $7 billion a month since last October, and at the moment when the Russians did attack, they would have taken us in three days" I cannot even fathom, what kind of victory he hoped to have. A victory that involves Russia only genociding some of Ukraine, rather then all of it?
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On August 12 2023 03:58 KwarK wrote:
Zelensky did not cause Russia to invade Ukraine. There is exactly one party at fault here. Anything else is classic victim blaming.
I don't know, it could be argued that Zelensky dressed a little too provocatively.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On August 12 2023 03:38 Luolis wrote:
I'm sorry but the blame is 100% on Putin and Russia. This war is just a desperate attempt to make Russia an empire again, and also a continuation to earlier Russian imperialist policies. Russia's leadership has constantly talked how letting go of former USSR and Russian states was a mistake and that they should be returned to Russian control (even countries like Finland and Poland).
-can you confirm your claim by providing a link on a words of any high-ranking official (a minister would be fine)?
On August 12 2023 03:38 Luolis wrote:
As for the proxy war thing. Lol, lmao. Should Zelensky just let his country be run over by this band of murderers and rapists? We all know that Ukrainians would have a way shitter time as a people under Russian control. Ukraine wants to fight for it's independence and territory and USA and western countries are more than justified in supporting Ukraine. In fact, they should honestly support Ukraine more, because if Russia wasn't stopped here, they would've just moved to the next country with the same excuses.
You can criticize USA for a lot of terrible foreign policy choices. Supporting Ukraine is not one of those.
-you are a very simple and trusting person. This story has infinitely more depth than that.
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So the dictator and psycopath putin is acting rational starting this war? Be real, it's not about any papers, agreements or documents or whatever, it's about restoring the sovjet union. Also psycopaths are known to be very high risk takers, prigozhin is probably a psycopath aswell with his march on moscov, not the best people to lead your country obviously.
European leaders thought that a war is so economically crazy that becoming dependant on russia would make them unable to start war because of the astronomical costs and money wasted. Problem is dictators don't have to care like democtratic leaders do about the economy.
Russia was providing aprox 40% of all of europes gas needs and now it's down to 13%, combined with the oil sanctions It's huge amounts of money gone.
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On August 12 2023 04:06 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 03:38 Luolis wrote:
I'm sorry but the blame is 100% on Putin and Russia. This war is just a desperate attempt to make Russia an empire again, and also a continuation to earlier Russian imperialist policies. Russia's leadership has constantly talked how letting go of former USSR and Russian states was a mistake and that they should be returned to Russian control (even countries like Finland and Poland).
-can your confirm your claim by providing a link on a words of any high-ranking official (a minister would be fine)? Show nested quote +On August 12 2023 03:38 Luolis wrote:
As for the proxy war thing. Lol, lmao. Should Zelensky just let his country be run over by this band of murderers and rapists? We all know that Ukrainians would have a way shitter time as a people under Russian control. Ukraine wants to fight for it's independence and territory and USA and western countries are more than justified in supporting Ukraine. In fact, they should honestly support Ukraine more, because if Russia wasn't stopped here, they would've just moved to the next country with the same excuses.
You can criticize USA for a lot of terrible foreign policy choices. Supporting Ukraine is not one of those. -you are a very simple and trusting person. This story has infinitely more depth than that.
Putin himself said that Ukraine is illegitimate and should not exist. That was his speech maybe a day or so before the start of the invasion. You can take him by his own words.
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On August 12 2023 03:31 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2023 22:40 JimmiC wrote:
Thank you for all the good information.
Edit: I think my biggest point of confusion is a_ch being mad at "western media" reporting that Russia was just posturing indirectly costing him money, and not really mad at the Russian Government attacking and directly causing his loss as well as super high inflation. No media anywhere has accurately predicted what was going to happen before or really what has happened since. There is one person, or one small group of elites depending on how you look at this who created this and have continued it. You can try to blame whoever, but if Russia just pulled back to their own borders it would be over, even most if not all the sanctions would be gone. -at the beginning of the war I was very confused and pissed becaused that failed all my plans, and it took me some time to start understanding what's going on. And no, in my opinion, Putin has a significant share of blame. Another share goes to the US administration - they (Putin included) are bloodthirsty warmongers, stuck in empirial mentality. And Zelensky's fault is for betraying his voters - by allowing a proxy war to start in his country. Upd. IMO, western media is just a tool in all of this; my negativity towards them is simply because I was stupid enough to be fooled by them during a long period of time.
"If only that bitch said 'yes' there would've been no rape. She should've at least let him get the tip wet. And that guy who intervened? Fuck him, too." That's your logic.
It's also funny how you're blaming Western media for taking Russia's word at face value and trusting Western intelligence (all of which aside from the US thought Russia would not invade) instead of Russia for actually doing the stupid thing nobody thought it'd do.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On August 12 2023 04:53 Magic Powers wrote:
Putin himself said that Ukraine is illegitimate and should not exist. That was his speech maybe a day or so before the start of the invasion. You can take him by his own words.
You've made me read that wall of text for the first time.
He never says that Ukraine is "illegitimate", this has been taken out of context from 21 feb. 2022 speech, where he describes the creation of Ukraine as a national state by revolutionaries in 1910s as arbitrary.
A quote from 24 feb. 2022 speech, google translated from http://kremlin.ru/events/president/news/67843
"As I said earlier, after the collapse of the USSR, Russia has accepted new geopolitical realities. We respect and will continue to treat all newly formed countries in the post-Soviet space with respect. We respect and will respect their sovereignty, and an example of this is the assistance we provided to Kazakhstan, which faced tragic events, a challenge to its statehood and integrity. But Russia cannot feel safe, develop, exist with a constant threat emanating from the territory of modern Ukraine."
-isn't that quite different from "restoring the USSR, and returning control over Finland and Poland"?
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EPT
