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On August 09 2023 08:12 captainwaffles wrote:
If one is looking at this even a little objectively, it doesn't make sense, from the Western point of view. But if you consider the Russian POV, it starts to make sense.
I... don't think you're looking at this objectively, even a little. Since you're pro Russian you're also positive to their genocidal point of view that Ukrainians as a nationality don't actually exist. So by that logic Russians are killing Russians, which doesn't make sense from an objective point of view.
While my heart weeps for Ukraine, I also am very anti Russia. So for me it makes sense to help Ukraine destroy Russians and keep their power and economy and standing in the world crumbling as it has been doing a while. Exposing Russia as weak bullies is good and maybe all the states that have been subjugated by Russia can finally be free when the federation (hopefully dies. although Russians have always been a weak people - not all Russians of course - prone to being ruled by dictators and never breaking out) dies.
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There will always be people rooting for underdogs. I'd never guess the underdog would end up being Russia and Putin :D in this conflict.
Nato is yet to enter this conflict and it seems that Nato won't have to. Russia has no reserves other than Atomic bombs, even though I am sure some people here would defend the use of it without any second thoughts.
Russia went from taking 1/3 of the territory in few weeks, to a slow months long battle for few villages without any strategic value.
Now the tide is turning. Nothing spectacular like 10 km per days. No surprise here.
This war will be a war on logistics, the defense collapse when they don't receive food or weapons.
I had a talking with a friend at the start of the conflict, he had predicted this stalemate situation quite accurately.
His job had been to run battle simulations but it all sounded unreal when he was explaining what is happening.
Since there are no way for Ukrainians to punish Russia, and no way for Russia to concede their di facto total failure at 100% of their objectives. This means that we are in the new normal state of the world.
The only end to this conflict that I give some degree of chance, is that one mobilization too much in Russia starts to feed on kids from a higher social status, at which point this conflict starts hitting home and the cost materialize.
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@captainwaffles thanks for your tax payer's money for helping Ukraine, it means a lot to us that even if you don't agree with its use, you agree enough to keep providing it. It is the beauty of a democracy and what makes America's greatness in the world.
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On August 09 2023 18:39 SamuelGreen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2023 08:12 captainwaffles wrote:
If one is looking at this even a little objectively, it doesn't make sense, from the Western point of view. But if you consider the Russian POV, it starts to make sense.
I... don't think you're looking at this objectively, even a little. Since you're pro Russian you're also positive to their genocidal point of view that Ukrainians as a nationality don't actually exist. So by that logic Russians are killing Russians, which doesn't make sense from an objective point of view. While my heart weeps for Ukraine, I also am very anti Russia. So for me it makes sense to help Ukraine destroy Russians and keep their power and economy and standing in the world crumbling as it has been doing a while. Exposing Russia as weak bullies is good and maybe all the states that have been subjugated by Russia can finally be free when the federation (hopefully dies. although Russians have always been a weak people - not all Russians of course - prone to being ruled by dictators and never breaking out) dies.
You can't expect individuals in nations at war to be kind, civil or considerate with each other. Even if their country is in the wrong. One might suppose Ukraines government is to blame, another might blame Russia. People just get too emotionally involved, especially if they are bystanders (not citizens of either of the two warring countries). The so called bleeding heart syndrome or wanting to be seen as a bleeding heart or holding moral/socially acceptable/correct opinions and therefore be considered a good boy. You might think its a byproduct of failing social norms and culture in what were first world countries during the cold war, and you might be right but peer pressure has always been a thing. Just what people have been pressured into saying or doing has changed over the years.
Another aspect we can see on this forum is the 'dogpiling effect'. When people think that it's acceptable to hate on an individual in a group, because they committed a faux pas or said what appears to be wrongthink in their social circle. They start piling on in the expectation of gathering good boy points and climbing the social totem pole by participating in putting the 'acceptable to hate' individual down. Personally I think it's something to do with emotional thinking and caring about what others think or say they think. Are these the hallmarks of the weakness of their arguments and characters? Most likely, but its never that simple.
And thats where the problem lies: Thinking emotionally instead of rationally when it comes to subjects. I feel Russia is to blame for everything. I feel Russia is a genocidal rapist state. I feel this, i feel that. I feel Russia doesnt want Ukraine to be a state. Nowhere is there concrete evidance behind those words, because there doesnt need to be evidance, you just need to state it and everyone in the social circle feels that its right. Asking for evidance and a logical, rational disscussion is the opposite of emotional thinking, asking why do you think Russians dont want Ukraine to exist can you give any examples where this was supported on a state level before 2022 and it will be ignored or a very weak low effort argument will be made.
Not being a citizen of one of the countries involved in the war you dont really have an excuse to indulge yourself in emotional thinking after the first week of a war. Its difficult to logically and rationally look at whats happening and come to a conclusion thats 'lol i auto-hate Russians' if you actually stop caring about what others think you are thinking. Hate breeds hate and the Rusophobia that came from the mass propaganda of the 2010s is as much to blame for this situation as anything else
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On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2023 18:39 SamuelGreen wrote:On August 09 2023 08:12 captainwaffles wrote:
If one is looking at this even a little objectively, it doesn't make sense, from the Western point of view. But if you consider the Russian POV, it starts to make sense.
I... don't think you're looking at this objectively, even a little. Since you're pro Russian you're also positive to their genocidal point of view that Ukrainians as a nationality don't actually exist. So by that logic Russians are killing Russians, which doesn't make sense from an objective point of view. While my heart weeps for Ukraine, I also am very anti Russia. So for me it makes sense to help Ukraine destroy Russians and keep their power and economy and standing in the world crumbling as it has been doing a while. Exposing Russia as weak bullies is good and maybe all the states that have been subjugated by Russia can finally be free when the federation (hopefully dies. although Russians have always been a weak people - not all Russians of course - prone to being ruled by dictators and never breaking out) dies. And thats where the problem lies: Thinking emotionally instead of rationally when it comes to subjects. I feel Russia is to blame for everything. I feel Russia is a genocidal rapist state. I feel this, i feel that. I feel Russia doesnt want Ukraine to be a state.
This one's easy! I can do this:
Russia is to blame for everything, because they invaded Ukraine.
Russia is a genocidal rapist state, because they perform provable genocide of the Ukraine population (Including abducting a large amount of children)
Russia doesn't want Ukraine to be a state, because they Invaded Ukraine with the intent of taking over Kyiv, and Russia have a history of doing the exact same thing to other countries, like Chechnya.
On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:
Nowhere is there concrete evidance behind those words
See that's just the problem with you and the other Russian sympathisers. There's numerous evidence (Including things you don't need to read about in an article, like the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine). You're just choosing not to accept it. Russia are the baddies in this war. It's incredibly binary
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On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2023 18:39 SamuelGreen wrote:On August 09 2023 08:12 captainwaffles wrote:
If one is looking at this even a little objectively, it doesn't make sense, from the Western point of view. But if you consider the Russian POV, it starts to make sense.
I... don't think you're looking at this objectively, even a little. Since you're pro Russian you're also positive to their genocidal point of view that Ukrainians as a nationality don't actually exist. So by that logic Russians are killing Russians, which doesn't make sense from an objective point of view. While my heart weeps for Ukraine, I also am very anti Russia. So for me it makes sense to help Ukraine destroy Russians and keep their power and economy and standing in the world crumbling as it has been doing a while. Exposing Russia as weak bullies is good and maybe all the states that have been subjugated by Russia can finally be free when the federation (hopefully dies. although Russians have always been a weak people - not all Russians of course - prone to being ruled by dictators and never breaking out) dies. You can't expect individuals in nations at war to be kind, civil or considerate with each other. Even if their country is in the wrong. One might suppose Ukraines government is to blame, another might blame Russia. People just get too emotionally involved, especially if they are bystanders (not citizens of either of the two warring countries). The so called bleeding heart syndrome or wanting to be seen as a bleeding heart or holding moral/socially acceptable/correct opinions and therefore be considered a good boy. You might think its a byproduct of failing social norms and culture in what were first world countries during the cold war, and you might be right but peer pressure has always been a thing. Just what people have been pressured into saying or doing has changed over the years. Another aspect we can see on this forum is the 'dogpiling effect'. When people think that it's acceptable to hate on an individual in a group, because they committed a faux pas or said what appears to be wrongthink in their social circle. They start piling on in the expectation of gathering good boy points and climbing the social totem pole by participating in putting the 'acceptable to hate' individual down. Personally I think it's something to do with emotional thinking and caring about what others think or say they think. Are these the hallmarks of the weakness of their arguments and characters? Most likely, but its never that simple. And thats where the problem lies: Thinking emotionally instead of rationally when it comes to subjects. I feel Russia is to blame for everything. I feel Russia is a genocidal rapist state. I feel this, i feel that. I feel Russia doesnt want Ukraine to be a state. Nowhere is there concrete evidance behind those words, because there doesnt need to be evidance, you just need to state it and everyone in the social circle feels that its right. Asking for evidance and a logical, rational disscussion is the opposite of emotional thinking, asking why do you think Russians dont want Ukraine to exist can you give any examples where this was supported on a state level before 2022 and it will be ignored or a very weak low effort argument will be made. Not being a citizen of one of the countries involved in the war you dont really have an excuse to indulge yourself in emotional thinking after the first week of a war. Its difficult to logically and rationally look at whats happening and come to a conclusion thats 'lol i auto-hate Russians' if you actually stop caring about what others think you are thinking. Hate breeds hate and the Rusophobia that came from the mass propaganda of the 2010s is as much to blame for this situation as anything else
Not recognizing the evidence does not translate into a lack of evidence.
There are plenty of studies that show very little correlation between evidence and to ability to change your mind.
The simple question you can ask someone you care about would be "What evidence would make you change your mind".
The thing about discussing evidence, it comes after you agree you stand within the same moral sphere. If you don't, you get piled and attack on your persona, not because of emotional thinking, but because it is rational not to discuss facts with someone who fails to pass more basic human logic. This sentence is not targeted at you, Zeo. Just a general explanation of internet dynamics.
You don't go discussing the smartest way to do integrals with someone who tells you 1+1 is not 2 (a classical discussion within math nerd circle btw). The thing is that while most of us agree 1+1 is 2, none of us has bothered to works through the proof. We will still not lose our time arguing about the righteousness of the axioms etc. We have basic rules that we need to agree on without needing a debate.
The same applies with morality of war. Kwark got pounded on by people who felt he left outside this moral bubble from the opposite side of which you reside.
It is less about emotions and more about the value the discussion brings. Look at Ardias' posts, they are very welcomed now, but in the beginning there was a certain amount of scrutiny.
Words have weight and we need to have a line that people should not cross, but we also need it to be far enough that you still can post, even if the value is limited (there tends to be 0 value in posts attacking someone and I know most of my posts are close to 0 value as well).
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"You might blame Ukraine, you might blame Russia. I wouldn't know why you'd blame Russia, but I suppose you could if you're too emotionally involved or if you're watching Russia's abusive behavior from afar."
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On August 09 2023 19:58 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:On August 09 2023 18:39 SamuelGreen wrote:On August 09 2023 08:12 captainwaffles wrote:
If one is looking at this even a little objectively, it doesn't make sense, from the Western point of view. But if you consider the Russian POV, it starts to make sense.
I... don't think you're looking at this objectively, even a little. Since you're pro Russian you're also positive to their genocidal point of view that Ukrainians as a nationality don't actually exist. So by that logic Russians are killing Russians, which doesn't make sense from an objective point of view. While my heart weeps for Ukraine, I also am very anti Russia. So for me it makes sense to help Ukraine destroy Russians and keep their power and economy and standing in the world crumbling as it has been doing a while. Exposing Russia as weak bullies is good and maybe all the states that have been subjugated by Russia can finally be free when the federation (hopefully dies. although Russians have always been a weak people - not all Russians of course - prone to being ruled by dictators and never breaking out) dies. And thats where the problem lies: Thinking emotionally instead of rationally when it comes to subjects. I feel Russia is to blame for everything. I feel Russia is a genocidal rapist state. I feel this, i feel that. I feel Russia doesnt want Ukraine to be a state. This one's easy! I can do this: Russia is to blame for everything, because they invaded Ukraine. Russia is a genocidal rapist state, because they perform provable genocide of the Ukraine population ( Including abducting a large amount of children) Russia doesn't want Ukraine to be a state, because they Invaded Ukraine with the intent of taking over Kyiv, and Russia have a history of doing the exact same thing to other countries, like Chechnya. Show nested quote +On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:
Nowhere is there concrete evidance behind those words See that's just the problem with you and the other Russian sympathisers. There's numerous evidence (Including things you don't need to read about in an article, like the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine). You're just choosing not to accept it. Russia are the baddies in this war. It's incredibly binary
This goes along with my statement later in the post that only weak arguments can be made in support, you know they are weak arguments and double down because you know you just need to say something anti-russian and it will be backed up.
Very one dimentional statements explaining nothing but how you feel. Moving school age children out of a warzone to attend summer camps and school further away from where thay can be shelled by Ukrainian troops is not genocide. You might feel that it is but the safety of those children is more important than your feelings.
Sending troops into a country for regime change is not wanting that country to stop existing, the whole Minsk deals were centered around having Donetsk become part of Ukraine again. Crimea held their referendum to not be a part of Ukraine anymore when the legitimate government was taken over in a coup. Not supporting Crimea being a part of Ukraine is not genocide, its not advocating the end of Ukraine. It is putting into question the territorial integrity of Ukraine which is what can be discussed .
You cannot have a normal conversation when one side is screeching about random things that are not happening. The regimes that govern countries and the people living there are two different things. Its been how many years since the war in Georgia.
In 2003 an anti-Russian color revolution happened, this was cultivated and cultivated and culminated with the 2008 war with Russia when Saakashvili got himself and his country in over its head. The Russian army was in shambles and stumbled its way somehow accross the mountain pass and occupied Gori. That was it. The road to Tbilisi was open and the Russians could set up shop/artillery and ruin the capitol city. You know what Saakashvili did then? He opened up every diplomatic channel and looked to end the conflict without sending the country back 100 years.
The Georgians could have held on for who knows how long, fought for every meter in the hills and mountains. But you know what that gets you? A lot of dead Georgians and a dead country that no one would give a fuck about tomorrow.
Nobody really believes Russia could have taken a city of 5 million with 30k troops if that city didnt want to be taken. Marching on Kiev had nothing to do with killing civilians in the city, it was pressure on the government and an enforcement of regime change if the government fell. Again, as ive said before, the Kiev government chose to put the entire population of Ukraine between them and loosing the money and power they had accumulated.
You cannot in good faith say the only reason the Russian army is in Ukraine is to kill Ukrainians and cull their population numbers. That is not a serious argument. If you say Russia want to control the population, that is a reasonable thing to say.
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Putin: Ukraine must be wiped off the map, they have no right to exist.
Putin puppet: This is not about genocide, it's just about regime change.
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On August 09 2023 21:15 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2023 19:58 Excludos wrote:On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:On August 09 2023 18:39 SamuelGreen wrote:On August 09 2023 08:12 captainwaffles wrote:
If one is looking at this even a little objectively, it doesn't make sense, from the Western point of view. But if you consider the Russian POV, it starts to make sense.
I... don't think you're looking at this objectively, even a little. Since you're pro Russian you're also positive to their genocidal point of view that Ukrainians as a nationality don't actually exist. So by that logic Russians are killing Russians, which doesn't make sense from an objective point of view. While my heart weeps for Ukraine, I also am very anti Russia. So for me it makes sense to help Ukraine destroy Russians and keep their power and economy and standing in the world crumbling as it has been doing a while. Exposing Russia as weak bullies is good and maybe all the states that have been subjugated by Russia can finally be free when the federation (hopefully dies. although Russians have always been a weak people - not all Russians of course - prone to being ruled by dictators and never breaking out) dies. And thats where the problem lies: Thinking emotionally instead of rationally when it comes to subjects. I feel Russia is to blame for everything. I feel Russia is a genocidal rapist state. I feel this, i feel that. I feel Russia doesnt want Ukraine to be a state. This one's easy! I can do this: Russia is to blame for everything, because they invaded Ukraine. Russia is a genocidal rapist state, because they perform provable genocide of the Ukraine population ( Including abducting a large amount of children) Russia doesn't want Ukraine to be a state, because they Invaded Ukraine with the intent of taking over Kyiv, and Russia have a history of doing the exact same thing to other countries, like Chechnya. On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:
Nowhere is there concrete evidance behind those words See that's just the problem with you and the other Russian sympathisers. There's numerous evidence (Including things you don't need to read about in an article, like the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine). You're just choosing not to accept it. Russia are the baddies in this war. It's incredibly binary This goes along with my statement later in the post that only weak arguments can be made in support, you know they are weak arguments and double down because you know you just need to say something anti-russian and it will be backed up. Very one dimentional statements explaining nothing but how you feel. Moving school age children out of a warzone to attend summer camps and school further away from where thay can be shelled by Ukrainian troops is not genocide. You might feel that it is but the safety of those children is more important than your feelings. Sending troops into a country for regime change is not wanting that country to stop existing, the whole Minsk deals were centered around having Donetsk become part of Ukraine again. Crimea held their referendum to not be a part of Ukraine anymore when the legitimate government was taken over in a coup. Not supporting Crimea being a part of Ukraine is not genocide, its not advocating the end of Ukraine. It is putting into question the territorial integrity of Ukraine which is what can be discussed . You cannot have a normal conversation when one side is screeching about random things that are not happening. The regimes that govern countries and the people living there are two different things. Its been how many years since the war in Georgia. In 2003 an anti-Russian color revolution happened, this was cultivated and cultivated and culminated with the 2008 war with Russia when Saakashvili got himself and his country in over its head. The Russian army was in shambles and stumbled its way somehow accross the mountain pass and occupied Gori. That was it. The road to Tbilisi was open and the Russians could set up shop/artillery and ruin the capitol city. You know what Saakashvili did then? He opened up every diplomatic channel and looked to end the conflict without sending the country back 100 years. The Georgians could have held on for who knows how long, fought for every meter in the hills and mountains. But you know what that gets you? A lot of dead Georgians and a dead country that no one would give a fuck about tomorrow. Nobody really believes Russia could have taken a city of 5 million with 30k troops if that city didnt want to be taken. Marching on Kiev had nothing to do with killing civilians in the city, it was pressure on the government and an enforcement of regime change if the government fell. Again, as ive said before, the Kiev government chose to put the entire population of Ukraine between them and loosing the money and power they had accumulated. You cannot in good faith say the only reason the Russian army is in Ukraine is to kill Ukrainians and cull their population numbers. That is not a serious argument. If you say Russia want to control the population, that is a reasonable thing to say.
TIL that provable evidence could be considered weak arguments.
I'm starting to understand how Russia supporters think now.
Can it be proven? Weak evidence.
Did Russia say anything about it? Strong evidence.
Photos? Weak evidence, unless manipulated; strong evidence.
What I really want reality to be like? Strong evidence.
NATO say anything about it? Weak evidence.
Can I misconstrue something in the most asinine way possible? Strong evidence!
The naivety on display to believe some of your own horseshit is insane. Russia literally committed a full scale invasion of Ukraine, lost the initial push and had to pull back, and you are still claiming "They didn't really want to anyways". I feel like I've woken up in crazy land. Like what did they want with the initial invasion then? Just to plunder and murder for funsies? What were all the losses for? Russia lost some of their best soldiers, including Spetsnaz units, trying to take the Antonov Airport. What was that about then? Just a training exercise gone wrong? Like wtf is it with this insane denial of reality?
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United States43672 Posts
Lol
Russia launches a blitzkrieg assault on the Ukrainian political centres but fails comically because their conscripts sold all the diesel from the tanks, their intelligence only tell the boss what they want to hear, and Ukrainian resistance bravely hold the line at the airport.
zeo: “they weren’t trying to conquer it, it wasn’t a failed attack, it was pressure”
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And how is controling a different nation with armed forced justified?
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On August 09 2023 21:56 Uldridge wrote:
And how is controling a different nation with armed forced justified?
It's justified because Ukraine did things (and Russia didn't do things. Of course not, of course not). Of course it's a tragic fact that the invasion is happening. It's a tragic and completely justified fact. It wouldn't have to happen if Ukraine hadn't done things (that Russia didn't have a hand in, of course). It's very sad. Zelensky should surrender and give Hitl- I mean Putin what he wants so this tragic but totally justified war can end. We're all bloodthirsty over-emotional spectators for respecting Zelensky's wish to not give in to Putin's totally justified and very reasonable demands. That means this tragic war simply has to continue until we all stop being unreasonable. There are no other options because Putin can't withdraw because that would be totally unjustified. Not that it would end the war or anything. That's not really possible if Putin withdraws. For reasons. Because NATO I guess, or something.
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Croatia9530 Posts
On August 09 2023 21:15 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2023 19:58 Excludos wrote:On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:On August 09 2023 18:39 SamuelGreen wrote:On August 09 2023 08:12 captainwaffles wrote:
If one is looking at this even a little objectively, it doesn't make sense, from the Western point of view. But if you consider the Russian POV, it starts to make sense.
I... don't think you're looking at this objectively, even a little. Since you're pro Russian you're also positive to their genocidal point of view that Ukrainians as a nationality don't actually exist. So by that logic Russians are killing Russians, which doesn't make sense from an objective point of view. While my heart weeps for Ukraine, I also am very anti Russia. So for me it makes sense to help Ukraine destroy Russians and keep their power and economy and standing in the world crumbling as it has been doing a while. Exposing Russia as weak bullies is good and maybe all the states that have been subjugated by Russia can finally be free when the federation (hopefully dies. although Russians have always been a weak people - not all Russians of course - prone to being ruled by dictators and never breaking out) dies. And thats where the problem lies: Thinking emotionally instead of rationally when it comes to subjects. I feel Russia is to blame for everything. I feel Russia is a genocidal rapist state. I feel this, i feel that. I feel Russia doesnt want Ukraine to be a state. This one's easy! I can do this: Russia is to blame for everything, because they invaded Ukraine. Russia is a genocidal rapist state, because they perform provable genocide of the Ukraine population ( Including abducting a large amount of children) Russia doesn't want Ukraine to be a state, because they Invaded Ukraine with the intent of taking over Kyiv, and Russia have a history of doing the exact same thing to other countries, like Chechnya. On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:
Nowhere is there concrete evidance behind those words See that's just the problem with you and the other Russian sympathisers. There's numerous evidence (Including things you don't need to read about in an article, like the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine). You're just choosing not to accept it. Russia are the baddies in this war. It's incredibly binary The Georgians could have held on for who knows how long, fought for every meter in the hills and mountains. But you know what that gets you? A lot of dead Georgians and a dead country that no one would give a fuck about tomorrow.
I don't know, it worked for us against your country in the 90s. It might yet work for Ukraine too. We fought for 4 years before we got our independence, unfortunately Ukraine might need to fight for longer.
On August 09 2023 21:15 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2023 19:58 Excludos wrote:On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:On August 09 2023 18:39 SamuelGreen wrote:On August 09 2023 08:12 captainwaffles wrote:
If one is looking at this even a little objectively, it doesn't make sense, from the Western point of view. But if you consider the Russian POV, it starts to make sense.
I... don't think you're looking at this objectively, even a little. Since you're pro Russian you're also positive to their genocidal point of view that Ukrainians as a nationality don't actually exist. So by that logic Russians are killing Russians, which doesn't make sense from an objective point of view. While my heart weeps for Ukraine, I also am very anti Russia. So for me it makes sense to help Ukraine destroy Russians and keep their power and economy and standing in the world crumbling as it has been doing a while. Exposing Russia as weak bullies is good and maybe all the states that have been subjugated by Russia can finally be free when the federation (hopefully dies. although Russians have always been a weak people - not all Russians of course - prone to being ruled by dictators and never breaking out) dies. And thats where the problem lies: Thinking emotionally instead of rationally when it comes to subjects. I feel Russia is to blame for everything. I feel Russia is a genocidal rapist state. I feel this, i feel that. I feel Russia doesnt want Ukraine to be a state. This one's easy! I can do this: Russia is to blame for everything, because they invaded Ukraine. Russia is a genocidal rapist state, because they perform provable genocide of the Ukraine population ( Including abducting a large amount of children) Russia doesn't want Ukraine to be a state, because they Invaded Ukraine with the intent of taking over Kyiv, and Russia have a history of doing the exact same thing to other countries, like Chechnya. On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:
Nowhere is there concrete evidance behind those words See that's just the problem with you and the other Russian sympathisers. There's numerous evidence (Including things you don't need to read about in an article, like the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine). You're just choosing not to accept it. Russia are the baddies in this war. It's incredibly binary Again, as ive said before, the Kiev government chose to put the entire population of Ukraine between them and loosing the money and power they had accumulated.
Is the concept of people not liking being invaded by aggressors and putting up a resistance so foreign to you? Have you considered that perhaps people of Ukraine support the Kiev's government choice of choosing to fight the invaders instead of doing what Georgia did?
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On August 09 2023 22:35 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2023 21:15 zeo wrote:On August 09 2023 19:58 Excludos wrote:On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:On August 09 2023 18:39 SamuelGreen wrote:On August 09 2023 08:12 captainwaffles wrote:
If one is looking at this even a little objectively, it doesn't make sense, from the Western point of view. But if you consider the Russian POV, it starts to make sense.
I... don't think you're looking at this objectively, even a little. Since you're pro Russian you're also positive to their genocidal point of view that Ukrainians as a nationality don't actually exist. So by that logic Russians are killing Russians, which doesn't make sense from an objective point of view. While my heart weeps for Ukraine, I also am very anti Russia. So for me it makes sense to help Ukraine destroy Russians and keep their power and economy and standing in the world crumbling as it has been doing a while. Exposing Russia as weak bullies is good and maybe all the states that have been subjugated by Russia can finally be free when the federation (hopefully dies. although Russians have always been a weak people - not all Russians of course - prone to being ruled by dictators and never breaking out) dies. And thats where the problem lies: Thinking emotionally instead of rationally when it comes to subjects. I feel Russia is to blame for everything. I feel Russia is a genocidal rapist state. I feel this, i feel that. I feel Russia doesnt want Ukraine to be a state. This one's easy! I can do this: Russia is to blame for everything, because they invaded Ukraine. Russia is a genocidal rapist state, because they perform provable genocide of the Ukraine population ( Including abducting a large amount of children) Russia doesn't want Ukraine to be a state, because they Invaded Ukraine with the intent of taking over Kyiv, and Russia have a history of doing the exact same thing to other countries, like Chechnya. On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:
Nowhere is there concrete evidance behind those words See that's just the problem with you and the other Russian sympathisers. There's numerous evidence (Including things you don't need to read about in an article, like the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine). You're just choosing not to accept it. Russia are the baddies in this war. It's incredibly binary The Georgians could have held on for who knows how long, fought for every meter in the hills and mountains. But you know what that gets you? A lot of dead Georgians and a dead country that no one would give a fuck about tomorrow. I don't know, it worked for us against your country in the 90s. It might yet work for Ukraine too. We fought for 4 years before we got our independence, unfortunately Ukraine might need to fight for longer. Show nested quote +On August 09 2023 21:15 zeo wrote:On August 09 2023 19:58 Excludos wrote:On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:On August 09 2023 18:39 SamuelGreen wrote:On August 09 2023 08:12 captainwaffles wrote:
If one is looking at this even a little objectively, it doesn't make sense, from the Western point of view. But if you consider the Russian POV, it starts to make sense.
I... don't think you're looking at this objectively, even a little. Since you're pro Russian you're also positive to their genocidal point of view that Ukrainians as a nationality don't actually exist. So by that logic Russians are killing Russians, which doesn't make sense from an objective point of view. While my heart weeps for Ukraine, I also am very anti Russia. So for me it makes sense to help Ukraine destroy Russians and keep their power and economy and standing in the world crumbling as it has been doing a while. Exposing Russia as weak bullies is good and maybe all the states that have been subjugated by Russia can finally be free when the federation (hopefully dies. although Russians have always been a weak people - not all Russians of course - prone to being ruled by dictators and never breaking out) dies. And thats where the problem lies: Thinking emotionally instead of rationally when it comes to subjects. I feel Russia is to blame for everything. I feel Russia is a genocidal rapist state. I feel this, i feel that. I feel Russia doesnt want Ukraine to be a state. This one's easy! I can do this: Russia is to blame for everything, because they invaded Ukraine. Russia is a genocidal rapist state, because they perform provable genocide of the Ukraine population ( Including abducting a large amount of children) Russia doesn't want Ukraine to be a state, because they Invaded Ukraine with the intent of taking over Kyiv, and Russia have a history of doing the exact same thing to other countries, like Chechnya. On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:
Nowhere is there concrete evidance behind those words See that's just the problem with you and the other Russian sympathisers. There's numerous evidence (Including things you don't need to read about in an article, like the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine). You're just choosing not to accept it. Russia are the baddies in this war. It's incredibly binary Again, as ive said before, the Kiev government chose to put the entire population of Ukraine between them and loosing the money and power they had accumulated. Is the concept of people not liking being invaded by aggressors and putting up a resistance so foreign to you? Have you considered that perhaps people of Ukraine support the Kiev's government choice of choosing to fight the invaders instead of doing what Georgia did?
Note the totally-not-double-standard. Kyiv is putting Ukrainian lives between themselves and Russia. But it's not worth mentioning that Putin and the Kremlin are sacrificing Ukrainian and Russian lives for the desperate continuation of the invasion. The Russian authorities are not at all interested in amassing wealth and power for the price of human suffering. No, the Ukrainian authorities are worthy of being pointed out.
This is not a double standard, everyone. We need to realize that we're over-emotional bloodthirsty spectators.
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On August 09 2023 21:56 Uldridge wrote:
And how is controling a different nation with armed forced justified?
Some people here don't recognize Ukraine's right to exist. That is how they justify it. Some of them are smarter and attempt to bothsides it. But it is of course hollow.
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On August 09 2023 22:35 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2023 21:15 zeo wrote:On August 09 2023 19:58 Excludos wrote:On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:On August 09 2023 18:39 SamuelGreen wrote:On August 09 2023 08:12 captainwaffles wrote:
If one is looking at this even a little objectively, it doesn't make sense, from the Western point of view. But if you consider the Russian POV, it starts to make sense.
I... don't think you're looking at this objectively, even a little. Since you're pro Russian you're also positive to their genocidal point of view that Ukrainians as a nationality don't actually exist. So by that logic Russians are killing Russians, which doesn't make sense from an objective point of view. While my heart weeps for Ukraine, I also am very anti Russia. So for me it makes sense to help Ukraine destroy Russians and keep their power and economy and standing in the world crumbling as it has been doing a while. Exposing Russia as weak bullies is good and maybe all the states that have been subjugated by Russia can finally be free when the federation (hopefully dies. although Russians have always been a weak people - not all Russians of course - prone to being ruled by dictators and never breaking out) dies. And thats where the problem lies: Thinking emotionally instead of rationally when it comes to subjects. I feel Russia is to blame for everything. I feel Russia is a genocidal rapist state. I feel this, i feel that. I feel Russia doesnt want Ukraine to be a state. This one's easy! I can do this: Russia is to blame for everything, because they invaded Ukraine. Russia is a genocidal rapist state, because they perform provable genocide of the Ukraine population ( Including abducting a large amount of children) Russia doesn't want Ukraine to be a state, because they Invaded Ukraine with the intent of taking over Kyiv, and Russia have a history of doing the exact same thing to other countries, like Chechnya. On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:
Nowhere is there concrete evidance behind those words See that's just the problem with you and the other Russian sympathisers. There's numerous evidence (Including things you don't need to read about in an article, like the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine). You're just choosing not to accept it. Russia are the baddies in this war. It's incredibly binary The Georgians could have held on for who knows how long, fought for every meter in the hills and mountains. But you know what that gets you? A lot of dead Georgians and a dead country that no one would give a fuck about tomorrow. I don't know, it worked for us against your country in the 90s. It might yet work for Ukraine too. We fought for 4 years before we got our independence, unfortunately Ukraine might need to fight for longer. Show nested quote +On August 09 2023 21:15 zeo wrote:On August 09 2023 19:58 Excludos wrote:On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:On August 09 2023 18:39 SamuelGreen wrote:On August 09 2023 08:12 captainwaffles wrote:
If one is looking at this even a little objectively, it doesn't make sense, from the Western point of view. But if you consider the Russian POV, it starts to make sense.
I... don't think you're looking at this objectively, even a little. Since you're pro Russian you're also positive to their genocidal point of view that Ukrainians as a nationality don't actually exist. So by that logic Russians are killing Russians, which doesn't make sense from an objective point of view. While my heart weeps for Ukraine, I also am very anti Russia. So for me it makes sense to help Ukraine destroy Russians and keep their power and economy and standing in the world crumbling as it has been doing a while. Exposing Russia as weak bullies is good and maybe all the states that have been subjugated by Russia can finally be free when the federation (hopefully dies. although Russians have always been a weak people - not all Russians of course - prone to being ruled by dictators and never breaking out) dies. And thats where the problem lies: Thinking emotionally instead of rationally when it comes to subjects. I feel Russia is to blame for everything. I feel Russia is a genocidal rapist state. I feel this, i feel that. I feel Russia doesnt want Ukraine to be a state. This one's easy! I can do this: Russia is to blame for everything, because they invaded Ukraine. Russia is a genocidal rapist state, because they perform provable genocide of the Ukraine population ( Including abducting a large amount of children) Russia doesn't want Ukraine to be a state, because they Invaded Ukraine with the intent of taking over Kyiv, and Russia have a history of doing the exact same thing to other countries, like Chechnya. On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:
Nowhere is there concrete evidance behind those words See that's just the problem with you and the other Russian sympathisers. There's numerous evidence (Including things you don't need to read about in an article, like the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine). You're just choosing not to accept it. Russia are the baddies in this war. It's incredibly binary Again, as ive said before, the Kiev government chose to put the entire population of Ukraine between them and loosing the money and power they had accumulated. Is the concept of people not liking being invaded by aggressors and putting up a resistance so foreign to you? Have you considered that perhaps people of Ukraine support the Kiev's government choice of choosing to fight the invaders instead of doing what Georgia did?
i've actually been in contact and read from quite a few Croatians that saw the struggle of the Russian population in the Donbass against Kiev as the same at their struggle against Belgrade. In general you ask 100 people how they see something you will get a lot of different answers. 90s Serbia and Ukraine are the same basically, but completely different at the same time
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As everyone knows the only answer to people facing discrimination and corruption in another country is to invade the country and turn it to rubble and wipe it off the map and kill hundreds of thousands of people. There are no other options.
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United States43672 Posts
If there’s one thing the corrupt and repressive state of Russia won’t abide it’s Russians suffering from corruption and repression, at the hands of anyone but them.
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EPT
