|
NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
Croatia9556 Posts
On August 09 2023 23:09 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2023 22:35 2Pacalypse- wrote:On August 09 2023 21:15 zeo wrote:On August 09 2023 19:58 Excludos wrote:On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:On August 09 2023 18:39 SamuelGreen wrote:On August 09 2023 08:12 captainwaffles wrote:
If one is looking at this even a little objectively, it doesn't make sense, from the Western point of view. But if you consider the Russian POV, it starts to make sense.
I... don't think you're looking at this objectively, even a little. Since you're pro Russian you're also positive to their genocidal point of view that Ukrainians as a nationality don't actually exist. So by that logic Russians are killing Russians, which doesn't make sense from an objective point of view. While my heart weeps for Ukraine, I also am very anti Russia. So for me it makes sense to help Ukraine destroy Russians and keep their power and economy and standing in the world crumbling as it has been doing a while. Exposing Russia as weak bullies is good and maybe all the states that have been subjugated by Russia can finally be free when the federation (hopefully dies. although Russians have always been a weak people - not all Russians of course - prone to being ruled by dictators and never breaking out) dies. And thats where the problem lies: Thinking emotionally instead of rationally when it comes to subjects. I feel Russia is to blame for everything. I feel Russia is a genocidal rapist state. I feel this, i feel that. I feel Russia doesnt want Ukraine to be a state. This one's easy! I can do this: Russia is to blame for everything, because they invaded Ukraine. Russia is a genocidal rapist state, because they perform provable genocide of the Ukraine population ( Including abducting a large amount of children) Russia doesn't want Ukraine to be a state, because they Invaded Ukraine with the intent of taking over Kyiv, and Russia have a history of doing the exact same thing to other countries, like Chechnya. On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:
Nowhere is there concrete evidance behind those words See that's just the problem with you and the other Russian sympathisers. There's numerous evidence (Including things you don't need to read about in an article, like the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine). You're just choosing not to accept it. Russia are the baddies in this war. It's incredibly binary The Georgians could have held on for who knows how long, fought for every meter in the hills and mountains. But you know what that gets you? A lot of dead Georgians and a dead country that no one would give a fuck about tomorrow. I don't know, it worked for us against your country in the 90s. It might yet work for Ukraine too. We fought for 4 years before we got our independence, unfortunately Ukraine might need to fight for longer. On August 09 2023 21:15 zeo wrote:On August 09 2023 19:58 Excludos wrote:On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:On August 09 2023 18:39 SamuelGreen wrote:On August 09 2023 08:12 captainwaffles wrote:
If one is looking at this even a little objectively, it doesn't make sense, from the Western point of view. But if you consider the Russian POV, it starts to make sense.
I... don't think you're looking at this objectively, even a little. Since you're pro Russian you're also positive to their genocidal point of view that Ukrainians as a nationality don't actually exist. So by that logic Russians are killing Russians, which doesn't make sense from an objective point of view. While my heart weeps for Ukraine, I also am very anti Russia. So for me it makes sense to help Ukraine destroy Russians and keep their power and economy and standing in the world crumbling as it has been doing a while. Exposing Russia as weak bullies is good and maybe all the states that have been subjugated by Russia can finally be free when the federation (hopefully dies. although Russians have always been a weak people - not all Russians of course - prone to being ruled by dictators and never breaking out) dies. And thats where the problem lies: Thinking emotionally instead of rationally when it comes to subjects. I feel Russia is to blame for everything. I feel Russia is a genocidal rapist state. I feel this, i feel that. I feel Russia doesnt want Ukraine to be a state. This one's easy! I can do this: Russia is to blame for everything, because they invaded Ukraine. Russia is a genocidal rapist state, because they perform provable genocide of the Ukraine population ( Including abducting a large amount of children) Russia doesn't want Ukraine to be a state, because they Invaded Ukraine with the intent of taking over Kyiv, and Russia have a history of doing the exact same thing to other countries, like Chechnya. On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:
Nowhere is there concrete evidance behind those words See that's just the problem with you and the other Russian sympathisers. There's numerous evidence (Including things you don't need to read about in an article, like the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine). You're just choosing not to accept it. Russia are the baddies in this war. It's incredibly binary Again, as ive said before, the Kiev government chose to put the entire population of Ukraine between them and loosing the money and power they had accumulated. Is the concept of people not liking being invaded by aggressors and putting up a resistance so foreign to you? Have you considered that perhaps people of Ukraine support the Kiev's government choice of choosing to fight the invaders instead of doing what Georgia did? i've actually been in contact and read from quite a few Croatians that saw the struggle of the Russian population in the Donbass against Kiev as the same at their struggle against Belgrade. In general you ask 100 people how they see something you will get a lot of different answers. 90s Serbia and Ukraine are the same basically, but completely different at the same time
Interesting parallels there. Not sure why you're saying it's the Serbia and Ukraine that are the same. Surely it's the Russia who is playing the role of 90s Serbia here, no? And Ukraine is 90s Croatia?
Here are the parallels in how I see them (it's pretty uncanny actually imo):
- 90s Serbia -> Russia
- 90s Croatia -> Ukraine
- Republic of Serbian Krajina -> Donetsk People's Republic & Luhansk People's Republic
- Both Serbia and Russia started the aggressive war against Croatia and Ukraine, respectively
The only difference that I see is that while we fought for our independence immediately after Yugoslavia fell apart, Ukraine is fighting for their true independence from Russia with 30 years lag time after USSR fell apart.
I guess now that I read your post again, you're comparing Ukraine with 80s Yugoslavia? Where Belgrade was severely punishing anyone who displayed any kind of Croatian national spirit (prisons and beatings were common for even singing some Croatian songs). And I assume you're insinuating that Ukraine was doing the same to Russian people in Donbas? I don't know if this is true or what kind of struggles Russians in Donbas suffered, so I can't comment on this.
But unless Ukraine was lynching Russian people daily on public squares in Donbas, I just can't see how *choosing* to invade a different country and have tens of thousands of people killed in process, is the best available choice. Or a choice that doesn't deserve highest condemnation.
|
I'd like to see how you commented on US invading Afghanistan and Iraq for oil back in the day. Not that the current situation is comparable, there is no oil being targeted here.
|
On August 10 2023 00:55 2Pacalypse- wrote:
But unless Ukraine was lynching Russian people daily on public squares in Donbas, I just can't see how *choosing* to invade a different country and have tens of thousands of people killed in process, is the best available choice. Or a choice that doesn't deserve highest condemnation.
Last I read about this it was about 10 thousands killed in donbas between 2014 and Russia intervention.
|
|
|
United States44287 Posts
On August 10 2023 01:12 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 00:55 2Pacalypse- wrote:
But unless Ukraine was lynching Russian people daily on public squares in Donbas, I just can't see how *choosing* to invade a different country and have tens of thousands of people killed in process, is the best available choice. Or a choice that doesn't deserve highest condemnation. Last I read about this it was about 10 thousands killed in donbas between 2014 and Russia intervention.
Yeah, there’s no evidence for that. Documented civilian deaths in 2021 was like 20?
This was literally a repeat of the arguments made by Hitler for his conquests. He sent paramilitary partisans into German minority areas to start trouble and force a state response. Then when the state responded he claimed that he needed to move in to protect German speakers from state repression.
The idea that Russia somehow needed to protect these civilians from violence that wasn’t happening is absurd. Far more of them are dying now from Russian mines than ever would have if they’d just stayed out.
|
|
|
|
|
On August 10 2023 01:17 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 01:06 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
I'd like to see how you commented on US invading Afghanistan and Iraq for oil back in the day. Not that the current situation is comparable, there is no oil being targeted here. Great whataboutism, read back through the thread. Most people are not fans but also their are some really weak parallels.
I just see a lot of rejecting the Russian Pov which isn't necessarily as wrong and evil as one may think. What if Ukraine is lying about some important things? Including war crime topics. But I don't want to take part in a discussion. I see this going on on 9gag all the time. If you speak in a western place the bullying can be quite complete.
|
On August 10 2023 01:19 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 01:12 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 10 2023 00:55 2Pacalypse- wrote:
But unless Ukraine was lynching Russian people daily on public squares in Donbas, I just can't see how *choosing* to invade a different country and have tens of thousands of people killed in process, is the best available choice. Or a choice that doesn't deserve highest condemnation. Last I read about this it was about 10 thousands killed in donbas between 2014 and Russia intervention. Yeah, there’s no evidence for that. Documented civilian deaths in 2021 was like 20?
Civil war in Donbas since 2014 and many deaths is what prompted Russia to start its intervention as NATO was at the time already supplying weapons to Ukraine. Many people fled Donbas.
|
On August 10 2023 01:12 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 00:55 2Pacalypse- wrote:
But unless Ukraine was lynching Russian people daily on public squares in Donbas, I just can't see how *choosing* to invade a different country and have tens of thousands of people killed in process, is the best available choice. Or a choice that doesn't deserve highest condemnation. Last I read about this it was about 10 thousands killed in donbas between 2014 and Russia intervention.
Russia invaded in 2014. That's first of all. The whole crisis was manufactured by Russia from the very beginning. Secondly, there were thousands of civilian deaths on both sides, the vast majority of them died in 2014-2015. From then on, the conflict was mostly frozen and civilian casualties went down to a trickle. Nearly all victims in recent years died from unexploded ordnance and mines.
Edit: There was no civil war in Donbas, you dumbass.
And the fact that you think Russia did anything to protect people in Donbas makes you look like an utter fool, considering that they fucking rounded up Donbas men at gunpoint and sent them to certain death with WW1/WW2 gear. Or the fact that they fucking levelled every town they "liberated" in Donbas.
|
United States44287 Posts
Googled it and found a source.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293409/civilian-deaths-related-to-russia-ukraine-conflict/
Civilian deaths happened when Russia first invaded in 2014 (they’re not longer pretending the little green men weren’t Russian soldiers) but had essentially stopped by 2020 due to the diplomacy of Ukraine and the restraint they showed in dealing with the alphabet republics. So Russia caused them in 2014 but Ukraine had fixed it.
There was no civilian death problem to be fixed in February 2022. Russia then caused one.
|
On August 10 2023 01:21 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 01:19 KwarK wrote:On August 10 2023 01:12 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 10 2023 00:55 2Pacalypse- wrote:
But unless Ukraine was lynching Russian people daily on public squares in Donbas, I just can't see how *choosing* to invade a different country and have tens of thousands of people killed in process, is the best available choice. Or a choice that doesn't deserve highest condemnation. Last I read about this it was about 10 thousands killed in donbas between 2014 and Russia intervention. Yeah, there’s no evidence for that. Documented civilian deaths in 2021 was like 20? He is pretending that Russia was not involved until this invasion. And the people fighting there were not Russian proxy fighters but freedom fighters. He’s behind on the propaganda.
NATO was also involved. Donbas had separatists that wanted independence. Automatically a contradicting point of view is "propaganda". But maybe you should put a question mark on it.
|
On August 10 2023 01:06 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
I'd like to see how you commented on US invading Afghanistan and Iraq for oil back in the day. Not that the current situation is comparable, there is no oil being targeted here.
Great whataboutism. But most people aren't under the magic illusion that US has always been the good guy in all of their wars, or defending their every action blindly. US has done a lot of shit, but what they haven't done is invade a country because they wanted their land, or had some wild notion of growing their empire, and were willing to commit genocide to get there. That said, there's a reason why US invading anything with oil is a meme.
|
United States44287 Posts
On August 10 2023 01:25 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 01:19 KwarK wrote:On August 10 2023 01:12 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 10 2023 00:55 2Pacalypse- wrote:
But unless Ukraine was lynching Russian people daily on public squares in Donbas, I just can't see how *choosing* to invade a different country and have tens of thousands of people killed in process, is the best available choice. Or a choice that doesn't deserve highest condemnation. Last I read about this it was about 10 thousands killed in donbas between 2014 and Russia intervention. Yeah, there’s no evidence for that. Documented civilian deaths in 2021 was like 20? Civil war in Donbas since 2014 and many deaths is what prompted Russia to start its intervention as NATO was at the time already supplying weapons to Ukraine. Many people fled Donbas.
If Germany invades France in 1946 to deal with a civilian death problem and the data they use to support their invasion is 1939-1945 would you say that the invasion is justified? Or would you say that they’re manufacturing a bullshit reason based on a problem that both no longer exists and was created by them.
|
|
|
On August 10 2023 01:22 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 01:17 JimmiC wrote:On August 10 2023 01:06 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
I'd like to see how you commented on US invading Afghanistan and Iraq for oil back in the day. Not that the current situation is comparable, there is no oil being targeted here. Great whataboutism, read back through the thread. Most people are not fans but also their are some really weak parallels. I just see a lot of rejecting the Russian Pov which isn't necessarily as wrong and evil as one may think. What if Ukraine is lying about some important things? Including war crime topics. But I don't want to take part in a discussion. I see this going on on 9gag all the time. If you speak in a western place the bullying can be quite complete.
Do you also have such a nuanced view on the Holocaust?
|
On August 10 2023 01:29 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 01:06 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
I'd like to see how you commented on US invading Afghanistan and Iraq for oil back in the day. Not that the current situation is comparable, there is no oil being targeted here. Great whataboutism. But most people aren't under the magic illusion that US has always been the good guy in all of their wars, or defending their every action blindly. US has done a lot of shit, but what they haven't done is invade a country because they wanted their land, or had some wild notion of growing their empire, and were willing to commit genocide to get there. That said, there's a reason why US invading anything with oil is a meme.
The genocide claims are made by Ukraine and denied by Russia. Who is lying? Has Ukraine used human shield tactics and killed their own civilians?
|
On August 10 2023 01:31 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 01:22 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 10 2023 01:17 JimmiC wrote:On August 10 2023 01:06 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
I'd like to see how you commented on US invading Afghanistan and Iraq for oil back in the day. Not that the current situation is comparable, there is no oil being targeted here. Great whataboutism, read back through the thread. Most people are not fans but also their are some really weak parallels. I just see a lot of rejecting the Russian Pov which isn't necessarily as wrong and evil as one may think. What if Ukraine is lying about some important things? Including war crime topics. But I don't want to take part in a discussion. I see this going on on 9gag all the time. If you speak in a western place the bullying can be quite complete. Do you also have such a nuanced view on the Holocaust?
No. Maybe you do.
|
|
|
On August 10 2023 01:33 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 01:31 maybenexttime wrote:On August 10 2023 01:22 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 10 2023 01:17 JimmiC wrote:On August 10 2023 01:06 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
I'd like to see how you commented on US invading Afghanistan and Iraq for oil back in the day. Not that the current situation is comparable, there is no oil being targeted here. Great whataboutism, read back through the thread. Most people are not fans but also their are some really weak parallels. I just see a lot of rejecting the Russian Pov which isn't necessarily as wrong and evil as one may think. What if Ukraine is lying about some important things? Including war crime topics. But I don't want to take part in a discussion. I see this going on on 9gag all the time. If you speak in a western place the bullying can be quite complete. Do you also have such a nuanced view on the Holocaust? No. Maybe you do.
The genocide claims were made by the Jews and denied by the Nazis. Who is lying?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
