NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
If one is looking at this even a little objectively, it doesn't make sense, from the Western point of view. But if you consider the Russian POV, it starts to make sense.
I... don't think you're looking at this objectively, even a little. Since you're pro Russian you're also positive to their genocidal point of view that Ukrainians as a nationality don't actually exist. So by that logic Russians are killing Russians, which doesn't make sense from an objective point of view.
While my heart weeps for Ukraine, I also am very anti Russia. So for me it makes sense to help Ukraine destroy Russians and keep their power and economy and standing in the world crumbling as it has been doing a while. Exposing Russia as weak bullies is good and maybe all the states that have been subjugated by Russia can finally be free when the federation (hopefully dies. although Russians have always been a weak people - not all Russians of course - prone to being ruled by dictators and never breaking out) dies.
And thats where the problem lies: Thinking emotionally instead of rationally when it comes to subjects. I feel Russia is to blame for everything. I feel Russia is a genocidal rapist state. I feel this, i feel that. I feel Russia doesnt want Ukraine to be a state.
This one's easy! I can do this:
Russia is to blame for everything, because they invaded Ukraine. Russia is a genocidal rapist state, because they perform provable genocide of the Ukraine population (Including abducting a large amount of children) Russia doesn't want Ukraine to be a state, because they Invaded Ukraine with the intent of taking over Kyiv, and Russia have a history of doing the exact same thing to other countries, like Chechnya.
On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote: Nowhere is there concrete evidance behind those words
See that's just the problem with you and the other Russian sympathisers. There's numerous evidence (Including things you don't need to read about in an article, like the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine). You're just choosing not to accept it. Russia are the baddies in this war. It's incredibly binary
The Georgians could have held on for who knows how long, fought for every meter in the hills and mountains. But you know what that gets you? A lot of dead Georgians and a dead country that no one would give a fuck about tomorrow.
I don't know, it worked for us against your country in the 90s. It might yet work for Ukraine too. We fought for 4 years before we got our independence, unfortunately Ukraine might need to fight for longer.
On August 09 2023 21:15 zeo wrote:
On August 09 2023 19:58 Excludos wrote:
On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:
On August 09 2023 18:39 SamuelGreen wrote:
On August 09 2023 08:12 captainwaffles wrote:
If one is looking at this even a little objectively, it doesn't make sense, from the Western point of view. But if you consider the Russian POV, it starts to make sense.
I... don't think you're looking at this objectively, even a little. Since you're pro Russian you're also positive to their genocidal point of view that Ukrainians as a nationality don't actually exist. So by that logic Russians are killing Russians, which doesn't make sense from an objective point of view.
While my heart weeps for Ukraine, I also am very anti Russia. So for me it makes sense to help Ukraine destroy Russians and keep their power and economy and standing in the world crumbling as it has been doing a while. Exposing Russia as weak bullies is good and maybe all the states that have been subjugated by Russia can finally be free when the federation (hopefully dies. although Russians have always been a weak people - not all Russians of course - prone to being ruled by dictators and never breaking out) dies.
And thats where the problem lies: Thinking emotionally instead of rationally when it comes to subjects. I feel Russia is to blame for everything. I feel Russia is a genocidal rapist state. I feel this, i feel that. I feel Russia doesnt want Ukraine to be a state.
This one's easy! I can do this:
Russia is to blame for everything, because they invaded Ukraine. Russia is a genocidal rapist state, because they perform provable genocide of the Ukraine population (Including abducting a large amount of children) Russia doesn't want Ukraine to be a state, because they Invaded Ukraine with the intent of taking over Kyiv, and Russia have a history of doing the exact same thing to other countries, like Chechnya.
On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote: Nowhere is there concrete evidance behind those words
See that's just the problem with you and the other Russian sympathisers. There's numerous evidence (Including things you don't need to read about in an article, like the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine). You're just choosing not to accept it. Russia are the baddies in this war. It's incredibly binary
Again, as ive said before, the Kiev government chose to put the entire population of Ukraine between them and loosing the money and power they had accumulated.
Is the concept of people not liking being invaded by aggressors and putting up a resistance so foreign to you? Have you considered that perhaps people of Ukraine support the Kiev's government choice of choosing to fight the invaders instead of doing what Georgia did?
i've actually been in contact and read from quite a few Croatians that saw the struggle of the Russian population in the Donbass against Kiev as the same at their struggle against Belgrade. In general you ask 100 people how they see something you will get a lot of different answers. 90s Serbia and Ukraine are the same basically, but completely different at the same time
Interesting parallels there. Not sure why you're saying it's the Serbia and Ukraine that are the same. Surely it's the Russia who is playing the role of 90s Serbia here, no? And Ukraine is 90s Croatia?
Here are the parallels in how I see them (it's pretty uncanny actually imo): - 90s Serbia -> Russia - 90s Croatia -> Ukraine - Republic of Serbian Krajina -> Donetsk People's Republic & Luhansk People's Republic - Both Serbia and Russia started the aggressive war against Croatia and Ukraine, respectively
The only difference that I see is that while we fought for our independence immediately after Yugoslavia fell apart, Ukraine is fighting for their true independence from Russia with 30 years lag time after USSR fell apart.
I guess now that I read your post again, you're comparing Ukraine with 80s Yugoslavia? Where Belgrade was severely punishing anyone who displayed any kind of Croatian national spirit (prisons and beatings were common for even singing some Croatian songs). And I assume you're insinuating that Ukraine was doing the same to Russian people in Donbas? I don't know if this is true or what kind of struggles Russians in Donbas suffered, so I can't comment on this.
But unless Ukraine was lynching Russian people daily on public squares in Donbas, I just can't see how *choosing* to invade a different country and have tens of thousands of people killed in process, is the best available choice. Or a choice that doesn't deserve highest condemnation.
Nooo, how can you say that?!
Donbass = Bosnia and probably Montenegro. Also Croatia = Crimea, because Crimea is almost an island and Croatia has a lot of islands. Ukraine = Serbia. Evil invaders of the Donbass, but heroic liberators of Kosovo! Yes. Something like that. and that means Russia = NATO, fighting a totally unjust war against the heroic Serbs, I mean Ukrainians... HEY, WAIT A MINUTE, MY METAPHOR DOESN'T WORK. YOU TRICKED ME. LET ME TRY AGAIN.
Donbass = whatever, an invented casus belli that only Russian stooges believe anyway. Ukraine = Croatia, Bosnia, etc. Russia = Serbia NATO = NATO
This works! Russia is the heroic Serbian empire with Putinsevic committing horrendous genocide while maintaining a FREE AND LIBERATED Croatia/Ukraine under the heel of their boot! NATO is evil for trying to stop such totally justified genocide from happening!
People have already answered this. Your timeline doesn't add up, and this link doesn't back you up on it.
But, let's pretend for one second that you are. Let's pretend that Ukraine had a civil war that caused tens of thousands of death over the period of 10 years, and that somehow wasn't caused by Russia invaders despite the fact that they've admitted as such. How do you justify hundreds of thousands of deaths over the span of a couple of years in a desperate attempt to "fix it"? You'd have gone from 1k deaths a year to 100x that after the invasion. Not to mention every town and village that has been completely leveled. Does that sound like reasonable justification to you? How about the genocide? The abduction of thousands and thousands of children? Does this seem like reasonable behaviour from the good guy who is only there to make peace in a civil conflict?
It's one thing to be critical, it's quite another to drink the koolaid and think Hitler was right.
On August 10 2023 00:55 2Pacalypse- wrote: But unless Ukraine was lynching Russian people daily on public squares in Donbas, I just can't see how *choosing* to invade a different country and have tens of thousands of people killed in process, is the best available choice. Or a choice that doesn't deserve highest condemnation.
Last I read about this it was about 10 thousands killed in donbas between 2014 and Russia intervention.
For clarification: Are you claiming that 10.000 Russian civilians, otherwise living peacefully in Donbas, were killed/lynched in the region between 2014 and Russias invasion of Ukraine?
The only claim of 10K killed I can find are in armed conflict which is somewhat different than "Ukraine lynching Russian people daily on public squares", which makes your post very disingenuous if not bordering on an outright lie in the context unless you can provide a source to back up your claim.
According to the UN source that would be 3K of civilians and the total count of 10K including forces reflects what I read before. I don't know a real number. Already provided source.
If one is looking at this even a little objectively, it doesn't make sense, from the Western point of view. But if you consider the Russian POV, it starts to make sense.
I... don't think you're looking at this objectively, even a little. Since you're pro Russian you're also positive to their genocidal point of view that Ukrainians as a nationality don't actually exist. So by that logic Russians are killing Russians, which doesn't make sense from an objective point of view.
While my heart weeps for Ukraine, I also am very anti Russia. So for me it makes sense to help Ukraine destroy Russians and keep their power and economy and standing in the world crumbling as it has been doing a while. Exposing Russia as weak bullies is good and maybe all the states that have been subjugated by Russia can finally be free when the federation (hopefully dies. although Russians have always been a weak people - not all Russians of course - prone to being ruled by dictators and never breaking out) dies.
And thats where the problem lies: Thinking emotionally instead of rationally when it comes to subjects. I feel Russia is to blame for everything. I feel Russia is a genocidal rapist state. I feel this, i feel that. I feel Russia doesnt want Ukraine to be a state.
This one's easy! I can do this:
Russia is to blame for everything, because they invaded Ukraine. Russia is a genocidal rapist state, because they perform provable genocide of the Ukraine population (Including abducting a large amount of children) Russia doesn't want Ukraine to be a state, because they Invaded Ukraine with the intent of taking over Kyiv, and Russia have a history of doing the exact same thing to other countries, like Chechnya.
On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote: Nowhere is there concrete evidance behind those words
See that's just the problem with you and the other Russian sympathisers. There's numerous evidence (Including things you don't need to read about in an article, like the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine). You're just choosing not to accept it. Russia are the baddies in this war. It's incredibly binary
The Georgians could have held on for who knows how long, fought for every meter in the hills and mountains. But you know what that gets you? A lot of dead Georgians and a dead country that no one would give a fuck about tomorrow.
I don't know, it worked for us against your country in the 90s. It might yet work for Ukraine too. We fought for 4 years before we got our independence, unfortunately Ukraine might need to fight for longer.
On August 09 2023 21:15 zeo wrote:
On August 09 2023 19:58 Excludos wrote:
On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:
On August 09 2023 18:39 SamuelGreen wrote:
On August 09 2023 08:12 captainwaffles wrote:
If one is looking at this even a little objectively, it doesn't make sense, from the Western point of view. But if you consider the Russian POV, it starts to make sense.
I... don't think you're looking at this objectively, even a little. Since you're pro Russian you're also positive to their genocidal point of view that Ukrainians as a nationality don't actually exist. So by that logic Russians are killing Russians, which doesn't make sense from an objective point of view.
While my heart weeps for Ukraine, I also am very anti Russia. So for me it makes sense to help Ukraine destroy Russians and keep their power and economy and standing in the world crumbling as it has been doing a while. Exposing Russia as weak bullies is good and maybe all the states that have been subjugated by Russia can finally be free when the federation (hopefully dies. although Russians have always been a weak people - not all Russians of course - prone to being ruled by dictators and never breaking out) dies.
And thats where the problem lies: Thinking emotionally instead of rationally when it comes to subjects. I feel Russia is to blame for everything. I feel Russia is a genocidal rapist state. I feel this, i feel that. I feel Russia doesnt want Ukraine to be a state.
This one's easy! I can do this:
Russia is to blame for everything, because they invaded Ukraine. Russia is a genocidal rapist state, because they perform provable genocide of the Ukraine population (Including abducting a large amount of children) Russia doesn't want Ukraine to be a state, because they Invaded Ukraine with the intent of taking over Kyiv, and Russia have a history of doing the exact same thing to other countries, like Chechnya.
On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote: Nowhere is there concrete evidance behind those words
See that's just the problem with you and the other Russian sympathisers. There's numerous evidence (Including things you don't need to read about in an article, like the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine). You're just choosing not to accept it. Russia are the baddies in this war. It's incredibly binary
Again, as ive said before, the Kiev government chose to put the entire population of Ukraine between them and loosing the money and power they had accumulated.
Is the concept of people not liking being invaded by aggressors and putting up a resistance so foreign to you? Have you considered that perhaps people of Ukraine support the Kiev's government choice of choosing to fight the invaders instead of doing what Georgia did?
i've actually been in contact and read from quite a few Croatians that saw the struggle of the Russian population in the Donbass against Kiev as the same at their struggle against Belgrade. In general you ask 100 people how they see something you will get a lot of different answers. 90s Serbia and Ukraine are the same basically, but completely different at the same time
Interesting parallels there. Not sure why you're saying it's the Serbia and Ukraine that are the same. Surely it's the Russia who is playing the role of 90s Serbia here, no? And Ukraine is 90s Croatia?
Here are the parallels in how I see them (it's pretty uncanny actually imo): - 90s Serbia -> Russia - 90s Croatia -> Ukraine - Republic of Serbian Krajina -> Donetsk People's Republic & Luhansk People's Republic - Both Serbia and Russia started the aggressive war against Croatia and Ukraine, respectively
The only difference that I see is that while we fought for our independence immediately after Yugoslavia fell apart, Ukraine is fighting for their true independence from Russia with 30 years lag time after USSR fell apart.
I guess now that I read your post again, you're comparing Ukraine with 80s Yugoslavia? Where Belgrade was severely punishing anyone who displayed any kind of Croatian national spirit (prisons and beatings were common for even singing some Croatian songs). And I assume you're insinuating that Ukraine was doing the same to Russian people in Donbas? I don't know if this is true or what kind of struggles Russians in Donbas suffered, so I can't comment on this.
But unless Ukraine was lynching Russian people daily on public squares in Donbas, I just can't see how *choosing* to invade a different country and have tens of thousands of people killed in process, is the best available choice. Or a choice that doesn't deserve highest condemnation.
Or: 90s Krajina = Ukraine (which is the literal translation of both countries, borderlands) 90s Croatia = Russia
The above case will be true if Ukraine gets ethnically cleansed in the end. The point here being that you can equate everything to everything if you want.
Anyway, Im not comparing anything, my point is in general Croatians are much more politically diverse than us and you can find a much wider spectrum of political thought in the mainstream than in Serbia. Which is a great thing in my opinion. Croatians in Hercegovina are much much more anti-NATO than in Croatia proper for instance, with good reason. And some parts are very pro-NATO, again, with good reason. So I've seen Ustasha LARPers being very pro-Nazi cringe, run of the mill liberals saying whatever is popular or Reddit at the moment, guys supporting Russia and a variety of normal people having normal opinions.
In Serbia we have a unique situation where anti-government Ukrainians came here because they know they won't be shipped off back to Ukraine to be mobilized but they don't want to go to Russia either. And lets be honest the other Ukrainians have much better countries to chose from when it comes to free stuff and comfort. At the same time a boat load of rich, well educated anti-government Russians came here because we are the only European country where they won't be discriminated against (again, not all of them can be put into one group or the other, its just the general makeup of the groups that came to Serbia). And you have situations where Russians NGOs are organizing anti-Putin protest and Ukrainians are coming to tell them to fuck off.
There is no banned media or opinions here so you can hear both sides.
On August 10 2023 01:06 ProMeTheus112 wrote: I'd like to see how you commented on US invading Afghanistan and Iraq for oil back in the day. Not that the current situation is comparable, there is no oil being targeted here.
I think Destiny articulated it well a few days ago:
People have already answered this. Your timeline doesn't add up, and this link doesn't back you up on it.
But, let's pretend for one second that you are. Let's pretend that Ukraine had a civil war that caused tens of thousands of death over the period of 10 years, and that somehow wasn't caused by Russia invaders despite the fact that they've admitted as such. How do you justify hundreds of thousands of deaths over the span of a couple of years in a desperate attempt to "fix it"? You'd have gone from 1k deaths a year to 100x that after the invasion. Does that sound like reasonable justification to you?
You'll have to start your talking to me better if you want me to talk to you. Justifying? Something terrible going on because of many reasons. NATO has been providing many weapons to Ukraine which puts no end to the conflict.
People have already answered this. Your timeline doesn't add up, and this link doesn't back you up on it.
But, let's pretend for one second that you are. Let's pretend that Ukraine had a civil war that caused tens of thousands of death over the period of 10 years, and that somehow wasn't caused by Russia invaders despite the fact that they've admitted as such. How do you justify hundreds of thousands of deaths over the span of a couple of years in a desperate attempt to "fix it"? You'd have gone from 1k deaths a year to 100x that after the invasion. Does that sound like reasonable justification to you?
You'll have to start your talking to me better if you want me to talk to you. Justifying? Something terrible going on because of many reasons. NATO has been providing many weapons to Ukraine which puts no end to the conflict.
Someone is about to get raped in an ally. Do you: a) give him a gun so he can fight back? or b) tell him to drop his pants and get it over with?
People have already answered this. Your timeline doesn't add up, and this link doesn't back you up on it.
But, let's pretend for one second that you are. Let's pretend that Ukraine had a civil war that caused tens of thousands of death over the period of 10 years, and that somehow wasn't caused by Russia invaders despite the fact that they've admitted as such. How do you justify hundreds of thousands of deaths over the span of a couple of years in a desperate attempt to "fix it"? You'd have gone from 1k deaths a year to 100x that after the invasion. Does that sound like reasonable justification to you?
You'll have to start your talking to me better if you want me to talk to you. Justifying? Something terrible going on because of many reasons. NATO has been providing many weapons to Ukraine which puts no end to the conflict.
Someone is about to get raped in an ally. Do you: a) give him a gun so he can fight back? or b) tell him to drop his pants and get it over with?
Oh they were supplying weapons even before when Ukraine was fighting in Donbas.
Is this the same place? There is no way it is that easy...
The other day:
It’s possible Russian industry has unclogged one of the major bottlenecks in its production of modern T-72B3, T-80BVM and T-90M tanks.
Their optics. Before Russian forces invaded Ukraine’s Crimean Peninsula back in 2014, Russia’s two active tank plants—Uralvagonzavod in Sverdlovsk Oblast and Omsktransmash in Siberia—sourced Catherine-FC thermal cameras, the core component of the Sosna-U gunner’s sight, from French firm Thales.
It’s possible Russian industry has unclogged one of the major bottlenecks in its production of modern T-72B3, T-80BVM and T-90M tanks.
Their optics. Before Russian forces invaded Ukraine’s Crimean Peninsula back in 2014, Russia’s two active tank plants—Uralvagonzavod in Sverdlovsk Oblast and Omsktransmash in Siberia—sourced Catherine-FC thermal cameras, the core component of the Sosna-U gunner’s sight, from French firm Thales.
People have already answered this. Your timeline doesn't add up, and this link doesn't back you up on it.
But, let's pretend for one second that you are. Let's pretend that Ukraine had a civil war that caused tens of thousands of death over the period of 10 years, and that somehow wasn't caused by Russia invaders despite the fact that they've admitted as such. How do you justify hundreds of thousands of deaths over the span of a couple of years in a desperate attempt to "fix it"? You'd have gone from 1k deaths a year to 100x that after the invasion. Does that sound like reasonable justification to you?
You'll have to start your talking to me better if you want me to talk to you. Justifying? Something terrible going on because of many reasons. NATO has been providing many weapons to Ukraine which puts no end to the conflict.
Someone is about to get raped in an ally. Do you: a) give him a gun so he can fight back? or b) tell him to drop his pants and get it over with?
On August 10 2023 00:55 2Pacalypse- wrote: But unless Ukraine was lynching Russian people daily on public squares in Donbas, I just can't see how *choosing* to invade a different country and have tens of thousands of people killed in process, is the best available choice. Or a choice that doesn't deserve highest condemnation.
Last I read about this it was about 10 thousands killed in donbas between 2014 and Russia intervention.
For clarification: Are you claiming that 10.000 Russian civilians, otherwise living peacefully in Donbas, were killed/lynched in the region between 2014 and Russias invasion of Ukraine?
The only claim of 10K killed I can find are in armed conflict which is somewhat different than "Ukraine lynching Russian people daily on public squares", which makes your post very disingenuous if not bordering on an outright lie in the context unless you can provide a source to back up your claim.
According to the UN source that would be 3K of civilians and the total count of 10K including forces reflects what I read before. I don't know a real number. Already provided source.
Yes, and your source doesn't back up that 10K Russians were lynched. In fact it doesn't mention anything that could be in any way equated to lynchings.
On August 10 2023 00:55 2Pacalypse- wrote: But unless Ukraine was lynching Russian people daily on public squares in Donbas, I just can't see how *choosing* to invade a different country and have tens of thousands of people killed in process, is the best available choice. Or a choice that doesn't deserve highest condemnation.
Last I read about this it was about 10 thousands killed in donbas between 2014 and Russia intervention.
For clarification: Are you claiming that 10.000 Russian civilians, otherwise living peacefully in Donbas, were killed/lynched in the region between 2014 and Russias invasion of Ukraine?
The only claim of 10K killed I can find are in armed conflict which is somewhat different than "Ukraine lynching Russian people daily on public squares", which makes your post very disingenuous if not bordering on an outright lie in the context unless you can provide a source to back up your claim.
According to the UN source that would be 3K of civilians and the total count of 10K including forces reflects what I read before. I don't know a real number. Already provided source.
Yes, and your source doesn't back up that 10K Russians were lynched. In fact it doesn't mention anything that could be in any way equated to lynchings.
You’re completely missing the deaths per year aspect here. Your UN Wikipedia numbers agree to the statista numbers, you’re just grouping them badly to misrepresent the data.
Here’s what you’re doing: The Nazis murdered 6m people in concentration camps in the years 1942-1946. That’s 1.5m/year. Therefore it’s justified to invade Germany in 1947 to stop the camps.
Then the rest of us who aren’t idiots point at the per year data and say that while the Nazis did kill 6m people in camps if you look at the deaths per year you’ll see that by 1946 there really isn’t anything left to fix.
Then you somehow miss the whole point and find another source that shows 6m deaths in camp and present the wrong date range a second time.
The only deaths that matter for a 2022 invasion were the deaths that were preventable from a 2022 invasion. The 2014 and 2015 deaths aren’t relevant. There were 25 civilian deaths in the whole of 2021.
You’re completely missing the deaths per year aspect here. Your UN Wikipedia numbers agree to the statista numbers, you’re just grouping them badly to misrepresent the data.
Here’s what you’re doing: The Nazis murdered 6m people in concentration camps in the years 1942-1946. That’s 1.5m/year. Therefore it’s justified to invade Germany in 1947 to stop the camps.
Then the rest of us who aren’t idiots point at the per year data and say that while the Nazis did kill 6m people in camps if you look at the deaths per year you’ll see that by 1946 there really isn’t anything left to fix.
Then you somehow miss the whole point and find another source that shows 6m deaths in camp and present the wrong date range a second time.
The only deaths that matter for a 2022 invasion were the deaths that were preventable from a 2022 invasion. The 2014 and 2015 deaths aren’t relevant. There were 25 civilian deaths in the whole of 2021.
Your source: Civilians 3,404 killed (306 foreign) 6 April 2014 – 31 December 2021
You disagreed with my source and instead posted your own showing almost identical numbers.
Overlooked the first part of the data on statista right so thousands killed in Ukraine by Ukraine since 2014 according to Statista as well, they agree. You're talking about Nazi germany to find an opportunity to tell me I'm an idiot unlike those who think like you. Plus you're moderator so can I call you an idiot? I don't want to talk with you guys, bye.
People have already answered this. Your timeline doesn't add up, and this link doesn't back you up on it.
But, let's pretend for one second that you are. Let's pretend that Ukraine had a civil war that caused tens of thousands of death over the period of 10 years, and that somehow wasn't caused by Russia invaders despite the fact that they've admitted as such. How do you justify hundreds of thousands of deaths over the span of a couple of years in a desperate attempt to "fix it"? You'd have gone from 1k deaths a year to 100x that after the invasion. Does that sound like reasonable justification to you?
You'll have to start your talking to me better if you want me to talk to you. Justifying? Something terrible going on because of many reasons. NATO has been providing many weapons to Ukraine which puts no end to the conflict.
I'm not "talking to you better" because your insanity doesn't deserve it. This isn't the gray lines debate you think it is. You are literally telling a country who got invaded to roll over and "just let it happen".
But don't think I didn't notice how you didn't actually answer anything. Yes, an invasion does need a justification that isn't just "because we want the land". "Because of many reasons" as you so playfully called it is not it either.
So here's the actual reason. Ready? Putin has a small penis and wants to enlargen his empire back to the USSR days, and is willing to pay in the hundreds of thousands of men to get it. That's it. The fight in Donbas? His doing. He started the fight. Russia doesn't have any rights to the land they themselves invaded, only to then turn back around and claim they should own it because there's conflict there. Neither can you invade a country, hold a vote, and then pretend "they wanted it! So it's ours now".
Imagine for a second if Russia invaded France, then held a totally not rigged election that to everyone's surprise stated that it should be his now. Would you roll over and let it happen? Would you whine about NATO coming to your aid? Defend Putin's genocide of your people? This is exactly that level of stupid, and why your opinion doesn't deserve the respectful tone you claim it does. You're actively defending genocide, and that can go fuck right off
EPT
