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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
On August 10 2023 01:50 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 01:47 Acrofales wrote:On August 10 2023 01:42 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 10 2023 01:36 Excludos wrote:People have already answered this. Your timeline doesn't add up, and this link doesn't back you up on it. But, let's pretend for one second that you are. Let's pretend that Ukraine had a civil war that caused tens of thousands of death over the period of 10 years, and that somehow wasn't caused by Russia invaders despite the fact that they've admitted as such. How do you justify hundreds of thousands of deaths over the span of a couple of years in a desperate attempt to "fix it"? You'd have gone from 1k deaths a year to 100x that after the invasion. Does that sound like reasonable justification to you? You'll have to start your talking to me better if you want me to talk to you. Justifying? Something terrible going on because of many reasons. NATO has been providing many weapons to Ukraine which puts no end to the conflict. Someone is about to get raped in an ally. Do you: a) give him a gun so he can fight back? or b) tell him to drop his pants and get it over with? Oh they were supplying weapons even before when Ukraine was fighting in Donbas.
"Ukraine was fighting in Donbas"..? Donbas IS in Ukraine! They weren't "fighting there", they were there defending their country from a Russian invasion. Yes, the invasion that Russia has now admitted that they did. The little green men was theirs all along, who knew? Except everyone of course
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On August 10 2023 03:23 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 01:42 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 10 2023 01:36 Excludos wrote:People have already answered this. Your timeline doesn't add up, and this link doesn't back you up on it. But, let's pretend for one second that you are. Let's pretend that Ukraine had a civil war that caused tens of thousands of death over the period of 10 years, and that somehow wasn't caused by Russia invaders despite the fact that they've admitted as such. How do you justify hundreds of thousands of deaths over the span of a couple of years in a desperate attempt to "fix it"? You'd have gone from 1k deaths a year to 100x that after the invasion. Does that sound like reasonable justification to you? You'll have to start your talking to me better if you want me to talk to you. Justifying? Something terrible going on because of many reasons. NATO has been providing many weapons to Ukraine which puts no end to the conflict. I'm not "talking to you better" because your insanity doesn't deserve it. This isn't the gray lines debate you think it is. You are literally telling a country who got invaded to roll over and "just let it happen".
Wrong. You're just making up your own viewpoint about me. I don't want to talk to you, and you are insane. Bye.
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United States44201 Posts
On August 10 2023 03:16 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 02:36 KwarK wrote:You’re completely missing the deaths per year aspect here. Your UN Wikipedia numbers agree to the statista numbers, you’re just grouping them badly to misrepresent the data. Here’s what you’re doing: The Nazis murdered 6m people in concentration camps in the years 1942-1946. That’s 1.5m/year. Therefore it’s justified to invade Germany in 1947 to stop the camps. Then the rest of us who aren’t idiots point at the per year data and say that while the Nazis did kill 6m people in camps if you look at the deaths per year you’ll see that by 1946 there really isn’t anything left to fix. Then you somehow miss the whole point and find another source that shows 6m deaths in camp and present the wrong date range a second time. The only deaths that matter for a 2022 invasion were the deaths that were preventable from a 2022 invasion. The 2014 and 2015 deaths aren’t relevant. There were 25 civilian deaths in the whole of 2021. It’s literally the same data. My data:
2014: 2084
2015: 954
2016: 112
2017: 117
2018: 55
2019: 27
2020: 26
2021: 25
Total: 3400 Your source:
Civilians 3,404 killed (306 foreign) 6 April 2014 – 31 December 2021 You disagreed with my source and instead posted your own showing almost identical numbers. Overlooked the first part of the data on statista right so thousands killed in Ukraine by Ukraine since 2014 according to Statista as well, they agree. You're talking about Nazi germany to find an opportunity to tell me I'm an idiot unlike those who think like you. Plus you're moderator so can I call you an idiot? I don't want to talk with you guys, bye.
You can call me an idiot if you like. I’m heavily involved in the debate so it’s not like I’m moderating from the sidelines here. And I’ll give you some cover to do it without it seeming like you’re attacking me out of nowhere.
I sincerely want you to know that you’re an idiot. A moron of the highest order.
Now if you call me one it’s only fair.
With that out of the way and you agreeing that our sources agree and that my source is valid, how many civilian deaths were there in 2021?
Also it doesn’t have to be a Nazi metaphor, you can use this for any scenario where you create an inaccurate date range and use it to draw inaccurate conclusions. You could use average Halloween decoration sales in the period Q4 to argue that there was still strong demand for them in December. The problem is that you’d be an idiot because the demand is concentrated entirely in October. Just as you’re an idiot for using total deaths across an 8 year period in which 97% of them happened in the first few years.
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On August 10 2023 04:38 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 03:16 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 10 2023 02:36 KwarK wrote:You’re completely missing the deaths per year aspect here. Your UN Wikipedia numbers agree to the statista numbers, you’re just grouping them badly to misrepresent the data. Here’s what you’re doing: The Nazis murdered 6m people in concentration camps in the years 1942-1946. That’s 1.5m/year. Therefore it’s justified to invade Germany in 1947 to stop the camps. Then the rest of us who aren’t idiots point at the per year data and say that while the Nazis did kill 6m people in camps if you look at the deaths per year you’ll see that by 1946 there really isn’t anything left to fix. Then you somehow miss the whole point and find another source that shows 6m deaths in camp and present the wrong date range a second time. The only deaths that matter for a 2022 invasion were the deaths that were preventable from a 2022 invasion. The 2014 and 2015 deaths aren’t relevant. There were 25 civilian deaths in the whole of 2021. It’s literally the same data. My data:
2014: 2084
2015: 954
2016: 112
2017: 117
2018: 55
2019: 27
2020: 26
2021: 25
Total: 3400 Your source:
Civilians 3,404 killed (306 foreign) 6 April 2014 – 31 December 2021 You disagreed with my source and instead posted your own showing almost identical numbers. Overlooked the first part of the data on statista right so thousands killed in Ukraine by Ukraine since 2014 according to Statista as well, they agree. You're talking about Nazi germany to find an opportunity to tell me I'm an idiot unlike those who think like you. Plus you're moderator so can I call you an idiot? I don't want to talk with you guys, bye. You can call me an idiot if you like. I’m heavily involved in the debate so it’s not like I’m moderating from the sidelines here. And I’ll give you some cover to do it without it seeming like you’re attacking me out of nowhere. I sincerely want you to know that you’re an idiot. A moron of the highest order. Now if you call me one it’s only fair.
All right fair enough, you are an idiot, and a complete moron. Of the highest order of course. Hats off and good bye, sir^^
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Canada11586 Posts
...nothing on Kwark's actual argument though?
Because it wasn't a flippant insult but an insult based on how you were using the numbers, which you do not seem to be addressing...
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United States44201 Posts
The issue there is the same as with all the other idiotic shit you’ve said so far in this topic. Just saying it does not make it true.
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On August 10 2023 03:16 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 02:36 KwarK wrote:You’re completely missing the deaths per year aspect here. Your UN Wikipedia numbers agree to the statista numbers, you’re just grouping them badly to misrepresent the data. Here’s what you’re doing: The Nazis murdered 6m people in concentration camps in the years 1942-1946. That’s 1.5m/year. Therefore it’s justified to invade Germany in 1947 to stop the camps. Then the rest of us who aren’t idiots point at the per year data and say that while the Nazis did kill 6m people in camps if you look at the deaths per year you’ll see that by 1946 there really isn’t anything left to fix. Then you somehow miss the whole point and find another source that shows 6m deaths in camp and present the wrong date range a second time. The only deaths that matter for a 2022 invasion were the deaths that were preventable from a 2022 invasion. The 2014 and 2015 deaths aren’t relevant. There were 25 civilian deaths in the whole of 2021. It’s literally the same data. My data:
2014: 2084
2015: 954
2016: 112
2017: 117
2018: 55
2019: 27
2020: 26
2021: 25
Total: 3400 Your source:
Civilians 3,404 killed (306 foreign) 6 April 2014 – 31 December 2021 You disagreed with my source and instead posted your own showing almost identical numbers. Overlooked the first part of the data on statista right so thousands killed in Ukraine by Ukraine since 2014 according to Statista as well, they agree. You're talking about Nazi germany to find an opportunity to tell me I'm an idiot unlike those who think like you. Plus you're moderator so can I call you an idiot? I don't want to talk with you guys, bye.
Are you seriously blaming civilian casualties of a conflict instigated by Russia solely on Ukraine? You're callous.
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On August 10 2023 05:02 Falling wrote:
...nothing on Kwark's actual argument though?
Because it wasn't a flippant insult but an insult based on how you were using the numbers, which you do not seem to be addressing...
Sorry but I don't have to, I have no interest in pursuing a discussion that starts with insults.
On August 10 2023 05:02 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 03:16 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 10 2023 02:36 KwarK wrote:You’re completely missing the deaths per year aspect here. Your UN Wikipedia numbers agree to the statista numbers, you’re just grouping them badly to misrepresent the data. Here’s what you’re doing: The Nazis murdered 6m people in concentration camps in the years 1942-1946. That’s 1.5m/year. Therefore it’s justified to invade Germany in 1947 to stop the camps. Then the rest of us who aren’t idiots point at the per year data and say that while the Nazis did kill 6m people in camps if you look at the deaths per year you’ll see that by 1946 there really isn’t anything left to fix. Then you somehow miss the whole point and find another source that shows 6m deaths in camp and present the wrong date range a second time. The only deaths that matter for a 2022 invasion were the deaths that were preventable from a 2022 invasion. The 2014 and 2015 deaths aren’t relevant. There were 25 civilian deaths in the whole of 2021. It’s literally the same data. My data:
2014: 2084
2015: 954
2016: 112
2017: 117
2018: 55
2019: 27
2020: 26
2021: 25
Total: 3400 Your source:
Civilians 3,404 killed (306 foreign) 6 April 2014 – 31 December 2021 You disagreed with my source and instead posted your own showing almost identical numbers. Overlooked the first part of the data on statista right so thousands killed in Ukraine by Ukraine since 2014 according to Statista as well, they agree. You're talking about Nazi germany to find an opportunity to tell me I'm an idiot unlike those who think like you. Plus you're moderator so can I call you an idiot? I don't want to talk with you guys, bye. Are you seriously blaming civilian casualties of a conflict instigated by Russia solely on Ukraine? You're callous.
Not sure what you mean but I am sure that you are callous. Good bye.
On August 10 2023 05:02 KwarK wrote:
The issue there is the same as with all the other idiotic shit you’ve said so far in this topic. Just saying it does not make it true.
Just as you repeating your variations of idiot.
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On August 10 2023 05:05 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 05:02 Falling wrote:
...nothing on Kwark's actual argument though?
Because it wasn't a flippant insult but an insult based on how you were using the numbers, which you do not seem to be addressing... Sorry but I don't have to, I have no interest in pursuing a discussion that starts with insults. Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 05:02 maybenexttime wrote:On August 10 2023 03:16 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 10 2023 02:36 KwarK wrote:You’re completely missing the deaths per year aspect here. Your UN Wikipedia numbers agree to the statista numbers, you’re just grouping them badly to misrepresent the data. Here’s what you’re doing: The Nazis murdered 6m people in concentration camps in the years 1942-1946. That’s 1.5m/year. Therefore it’s justified to invade Germany in 1947 to stop the camps. Then the rest of us who aren’t idiots point at the per year data and say that while the Nazis did kill 6m people in camps if you look at the deaths per year you’ll see that by 1946 there really isn’t anything left to fix. Then you somehow miss the whole point and find another source that shows 6m deaths in camp and present the wrong date range a second time. The only deaths that matter for a 2022 invasion were the deaths that were preventable from a 2022 invasion. The 2014 and 2015 deaths aren’t relevant. There were 25 civilian deaths in the whole of 2021. It’s literally the same data. My data:
2014: 2084
2015: 954
2016: 112
2017: 117
2018: 55
2019: 27
2020: 26
2021: 25
Total: 3400 Your source:
Civilians 3,404 killed (306 foreign) 6 April 2014 – 31 December 2021 You disagreed with my source and instead posted your own showing almost identical numbers. Overlooked the first part of the data on statista right so thousands killed in Ukraine by Ukraine since 2014 according to Statista as well, they agree. You're talking about Nazi germany to find an opportunity to tell me I'm an idiot unlike those who think like you. Plus you're moderator so can I call you an idiot? I don't want to talk with you guys, bye. Are you seriously blaming civilian casualties of a conflict instigated by Russia solely on Ukraine? You're callous. Not sure what you mean but I am sure that you are callous. Good bye.
I meant the "thousands killed in Ukraine by Ukraine since 2014", you fucking idiot.
And the discussion didn't start with insults. It ended with insults because you're a fucking moron.
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On August 10 2023 05:07 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 05:05 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 10 2023 05:02 Falling wrote:
...nothing on Kwark's actual argument though?
Because it wasn't a flippant insult but an insult based on how you were using the numbers, which you do not seem to be addressing... Sorry but I don't have to, I have no interest in pursuing a discussion that starts with insults. On August 10 2023 05:02 maybenexttime wrote:On August 10 2023 03:16 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 10 2023 02:36 KwarK wrote:You’re completely missing the deaths per year aspect here. Your UN Wikipedia numbers agree to the statista numbers, you’re just grouping them badly to misrepresent the data. Here’s what you’re doing: The Nazis murdered 6m people in concentration camps in the years 1942-1946. That’s 1.5m/year. Therefore it’s justified to invade Germany in 1947 to stop the camps. Then the rest of us who aren’t idiots point at the per year data and say that while the Nazis did kill 6m people in camps if you look at the deaths per year you’ll see that by 1946 there really isn’t anything left to fix. Then you somehow miss the whole point and find another source that shows 6m deaths in camp and present the wrong date range a second time. The only deaths that matter for a 2022 invasion were the deaths that were preventable from a 2022 invasion. The 2014 and 2015 deaths aren’t relevant. There were 25 civilian deaths in the whole of 2021. It’s literally the same data. My data:
2014: 2084
2015: 954
2016: 112
2017: 117
2018: 55
2019: 27
2020: 26
2021: 25
Total: 3400 Your source:
Civilians 3,404 killed (306 foreign) 6 April 2014 – 31 December 2021 You disagreed with my source and instead posted your own showing almost identical numbers. Overlooked the first part of the data on statista right so thousands killed in Ukraine by Ukraine since 2014 according to Statista as well, they agree. You're talking about Nazi germany to find an opportunity to tell me I'm an idiot unlike those who think like you. Plus you're moderator so can I call you an idiot? I don't want to talk with you guys, bye. Are you seriously blaming civilian casualties of a conflict instigated by Russia solely on Ukraine? You're callous. Not sure what you mean but I am sure that you are callous. Good bye. I meant the "thousands killed in Ukraine by Ukraine since 2014", you fucking idiot. And the discussion didn't start with insult. It ended with insult because you're a fucking moron.
I have no interest in talking to you fucking idiot moron.
User was temp banned for this post.
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"I have no intrest in talking to you"
Said in reply to the person.
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Yeah if he insult me I don't mind letting him know. Just talk to someone else tbh.
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On August 10 2023 05:15 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
Yeah if he insult me I don't mind letting him know. Just talk to someone else tbh.
Well, then stop shitting up the thread with Russian propaganda. Else you will get called out.
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On August 10 2023 05:16 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 05:15 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
Yeah if he insult me I don't mind letting him know. Just talk to someone else tbh. Well, then stop shitting up the thread with Russian propaganda. Else you will get called out.
Yeah yeah your shit gets called out.
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United States44201 Posts
On August 10 2023 05:05 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 05:02 Falling wrote:
...nothing on Kwark's actual argument though?
Because it wasn't a flippant insult but an insult based on how you were using the numbers, which you do not seem to be addressing... Sorry but I don't have to, I have no interest in pursuing a discussion that starts with insults. Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 05:02 maybenexttime wrote:On August 10 2023 03:16 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On August 10 2023 02:36 KwarK wrote:You’re completely missing the deaths per year aspect here. Your UN Wikipedia numbers agree to the statista numbers, you’re just grouping them badly to misrepresent the data. Here’s what you’re doing: The Nazis murdered 6m people in concentration camps in the years 1942-1946. That’s 1.5m/year. Therefore it’s justified to invade Germany in 1947 to stop the camps. Then the rest of us who aren’t idiots point at the per year data and say that while the Nazis did kill 6m people in camps if you look at the deaths per year you’ll see that by 1946 there really isn’t anything left to fix. Then you somehow miss the whole point and find another source that shows 6m deaths in camp and present the wrong date range a second time. The only deaths that matter for a 2022 invasion were the deaths that were preventable from a 2022 invasion. The 2014 and 2015 deaths aren’t relevant. There were 25 civilian deaths in the whole of 2021. It’s literally the same data. My data:
2014: 2084
2015: 954
2016: 112
2017: 117
2018: 55
2019: 27
2020: 26
2021: 25
Total: 3400 Your source:
Civilians 3,404 killed (306 foreign) 6 April 2014 – 31 December 2021 You disagreed with my source and instead posted your own showing almost identical numbers. Overlooked the first part of the data on statista right so thousands killed in Ukraine by Ukraine since 2014 according to Statista as well, they agree. You're talking about Nazi germany to find an opportunity to tell me I'm an idiot unlike those who think like you. Plus you're moderator so can I call you an idiot? I don't want to talk with you guys, bye. Are you seriously blaming civilian casualties of a conflict instigated by Russia solely on Ukraine? You're callous. Not sure what you mean but I am sure that you are callous. Good bye. Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 05:02 KwarK wrote:
The issue there is the same as with all the other idiotic shit you’ve said so far in this topic. Just saying it does not make it true. Just as you repeating your variations of idiot.
Sure, you're not an idiot because I'm saying it. You're an idiot because it is very obviously, very manifestly, completely undeniably, true from the things that you are saying.
This exchange has basically gone like this:
Minutes from the Plastic Pumpkin Company production planning meeting, December 1st
ProMeTheus112 (Sales Manager): We need to take drastic action to prepare for the sales of Halloween decorations in December. Our stocks are extremely low.
KwarK (Corporate Controller): Pretty sure that that doesn't make any sense.
ProMeTheus112 (Sales Manager): QTD sales were $100m, I'm forecasting another $50m in sales in December and on that basis we should take very extreme actions.
KwarK (Corporate Controller): Yeah, that doesn't make sense. Halloween is already over. We don't need to prepare for Halloween sales.
ProMeTheus112 (Sales Manager): Actually QTD sales are $100m.
KwarK (Corporate Controller): Yeah. But November sales were approximately $0 because Halloween was already over.
ProMeTheus112 (Sales Manager): Then how come QTD sales were $100m.
KwarK (Corporate Controller): Because October sales were $100m and then Halloween was over and then November sales were $0.
ProMeTheus112 (Sales Manager): Your numbers must be wrong, my numbers say QTD sales were $100m.
KwarK (Corporate Controller): You do understand that my numbers also say $100m, right?
ProMeTheus112 (Sales Manager): Yes, so we're agreed, QTD sales were $100m.
KwarK (Corporate Controller): Okay, as long as we're also agreed that we don't need to prepare for another $50m in sales in December based on the QTD average.
ProMeTheus112 (Sales Manager): We're not agreed on that, I still think that we do.
98% of the civilian casualties were outside of the years 2019-2021. The loss of civilian life in the war in the Donbas was over as of February 2022. This is undeniable. The data is extremely clear. Your data as well as mine. They agree. They both describe the exact same picture, a lot of conflict during the initial Russian invasion which subsequently died down. Negligible conflict in the last 3 years. It's December, Halloween has already happened, why are you using data from October as part of your justification for your insane December theories. Stop.
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On August 10 2023 05:20 KwarK wrote:
Sure, you're not an idiot because I'm saying it. You're an idiot because it is very obviously, very manifestly, completely undeniably, true from the things that you are saying.
I don't care what you think about me. I only know for a fact you are an idiot for thinking it.
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United States44201 Posts
On August 10 2023 05:22 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 05:20 KwarK wrote:
Sure, you're not an idiot because I'm saying it. You're an idiot because it is very obviously, very manifestly, completely undeniably, true from the things that you are saying.
I don't care what you think about me. I only know for a fact you are an idiot for thinking it.
What were the civilian casualties in 2021?
You’re justifying the Russian invasion on the basis of preventing civilian casualties so please go ahead and tell us what they were.
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Croatia9544 Posts
On August 10 2023 01:39 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 00:55 2Pacalypse- wrote:On August 09 2023 23:09 zeo wrote:On August 09 2023 22:35 2Pacalypse- wrote:On August 09 2023 21:15 zeo wrote:On August 09 2023 19:58 Excludos wrote:On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:On August 09 2023 18:39 SamuelGreen wrote:On August 09 2023 08:12 captainwaffles wrote:
If one is looking at this even a little objectively, it doesn't make sense, from the Western point of view. But if you consider the Russian POV, it starts to make sense.
I... don't think you're looking at this objectively, even a little. Since you're pro Russian you're also positive to their genocidal point of view that Ukrainians as a nationality don't actually exist. So by that logic Russians are killing Russians, which doesn't make sense from an objective point of view. While my heart weeps for Ukraine, I also am very anti Russia. So for me it makes sense to help Ukraine destroy Russians and keep their power and economy and standing in the world crumbling as it has been doing a while. Exposing Russia as weak bullies is good and maybe all the states that have been subjugated by Russia can finally be free when the federation (hopefully dies. although Russians have always been a weak people - not all Russians of course - prone to being ruled by dictators and never breaking out) dies. And thats where the problem lies: Thinking emotionally instead of rationally when it comes to subjects. I feel Russia is to blame for everything. I feel Russia is a genocidal rapist state. I feel this, i feel that. I feel Russia doesnt want Ukraine to be a state. This one's easy! I can do this: Russia is to blame for everything, because they invaded Ukraine. Russia is a genocidal rapist state, because they perform provable genocide of the Ukraine population ( Including abducting a large amount of children) Russia doesn't want Ukraine to be a state, because they Invaded Ukraine with the intent of taking over Kyiv, and Russia have a history of doing the exact same thing to other countries, like Chechnya. On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:
Nowhere is there concrete evidance behind those words See that's just the problem with you and the other Russian sympathisers. There's numerous evidence (Including things you don't need to read about in an article, like the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine). You're just choosing not to accept it. Russia are the baddies in this war. It's incredibly binary The Georgians could have held on for who knows how long, fought for every meter in the hills and mountains. But you know what that gets you? A lot of dead Georgians and a dead country that no one would give a fuck about tomorrow. I don't know, it worked for us against your country in the 90s. It might yet work for Ukraine too. We fought for 4 years before we got our independence, unfortunately Ukraine might need to fight for longer. On August 09 2023 21:15 zeo wrote:On August 09 2023 19:58 Excludos wrote:On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:On August 09 2023 18:39 SamuelGreen wrote:On August 09 2023 08:12 captainwaffles wrote:
If one is looking at this even a little objectively, it doesn't make sense, from the Western point of view. But if you consider the Russian POV, it starts to make sense.
I... don't think you're looking at this objectively, even a little. Since you're pro Russian you're also positive to their genocidal point of view that Ukrainians as a nationality don't actually exist. So by that logic Russians are killing Russians, which doesn't make sense from an objective point of view. While my heart weeps for Ukraine, I also am very anti Russia. So for me it makes sense to help Ukraine destroy Russians and keep their power and economy and standing in the world crumbling as it has been doing a while. Exposing Russia as weak bullies is good and maybe all the states that have been subjugated by Russia can finally be free when the federation (hopefully dies. although Russians have always been a weak people - not all Russians of course - prone to being ruled by dictators and never breaking out) dies. And thats where the problem lies: Thinking emotionally instead of rationally when it comes to subjects. I feel Russia is to blame for everything. I feel Russia is a genocidal rapist state. I feel this, i feel that. I feel Russia doesnt want Ukraine to be a state. This one's easy! I can do this: Russia is to blame for everything, because they invaded Ukraine. Russia is a genocidal rapist state, because they perform provable genocide of the Ukraine population ( Including abducting a large amount of children) Russia doesn't want Ukraine to be a state, because they Invaded Ukraine with the intent of taking over Kyiv, and Russia have a history of doing the exact same thing to other countries, like Chechnya. On August 09 2023 19:39 zeo wrote:
Nowhere is there concrete evidance behind those words See that's just the problem with you and the other Russian sympathisers. There's numerous evidence (Including things you don't need to read about in an article, like the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine). You're just choosing not to accept it. Russia are the baddies in this war. It's incredibly binary Again, as ive said before, the Kiev government chose to put the entire population of Ukraine between them and loosing the money and power they had accumulated. Is the concept of people not liking being invaded by aggressors and putting up a resistance so foreign to you? Have you considered that perhaps people of Ukraine support the Kiev's government choice of choosing to fight the invaders instead of doing what Georgia did? i've actually been in contact and read from quite a few Croatians that saw the struggle of the Russian population in the Donbass against Kiev as the same at their struggle against Belgrade. In general you ask 100 people how they see something you will get a lot of different answers. 90s Serbia and Ukraine are the same basically, but completely different at the same time Interesting parallels there. Not sure why you're saying it's the Serbia and Ukraine that are the same. Surely it's the Russia who is playing the role of 90s Serbia here, no? And Ukraine is 90s Croatia? Here are the parallels in how I see them (it's pretty uncanny actually imo): - 90s Serbia -> Russia - 90s Croatia -> Ukraine - Republic of Serbian Krajina -> Donetsk People's Republic & Luhansk People's Republic - Both Serbia and Russia started the aggressive war against Croatia and Ukraine, respectively The only difference that I see is that while we fought for our independence immediately after Yugoslavia fell apart, Ukraine is fighting for their true independence from Russia with 30 years lag time after USSR fell apart. I guess now that I read your post again, you're comparing Ukraine with 80s Yugoslavia? Where Belgrade was severely punishing anyone who displayed any kind of Croatian national spirit (prisons and beatings were common for even singing some Croatian songs). And I assume you're insinuating that Ukraine was doing the same to Russian people in Donbas? I don't know if this is true or what kind of struggles Russians in Donbas suffered, so I can't comment on this. But unless Ukraine was lynching Russian people daily on public squares in Donbas, I just can't see how *choosing* to invade a different country and have tens of thousands of people killed in process, is the best available choice. Or a choice that doesn't deserve highest condemnation. Or: 90s Krajina = Ukraine (which is the literal translation of both countries, borderlands) 90s Croatia = Russia The above case will be true if Ukraine gets ethnically cleansed in the end. The point here being that you can equate everything to everything if you want.
I mean sure, you can string together words in all sorts of ways to form grammatically correct sentences in English language. But this doesn't make your sentence logical. And I thought you were all about making rational arguments.
Comparing a sovereign state like Ukraine to 90s Krajina just doesn't make any sense. 90s Croatia to Russia comparison makes even less sense; we were fighting for our independence and as far as I'm aware Russia is pretty independent. And what is Serbia in this comparison, NATO?
I've seen you do this before in this thread. You postulate an alternative explanation to some argument, and you immediately assume the chances of either argument being correct is 50-50 just because you physically managed to word out an alternative. I mean I'm all for exploring different views to avoid getting stuck in an echo chamber, but at some point you have to evaluate the chances of your argument being correct on something else than it just being an alternative.
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Edit2: nevermind. I see he's temp banned. So no point continuing bashing my head against the wall.
Let's un-derail this thread a little bit.
Here's some interesting news: https://liveuamap.com/en/2023/9-august-ukraine-for-the-first-time-ammo-produced-by-the
Apparently, Russia is now using ammo provided by North Korea. And whilst it's a shame Russia is getting more ammunition to use, it is somewhat funny that what used to be considered the second biggest military in the world was brought so far down to their knees they've had to beg North Korea for support
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This thread became such a cesspool in last 25 pages, it's a shame. 
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EPT
