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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
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EDIT - Sorry, I misclicked something while I was replying, didn't mean to triple post.
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EDIT - Sorry, I misclicked something, didn't mean to triple post.
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United States43666 Posts
North Korean shells will still get the job done.
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On August 10 2023 08:26 JimmiC wrote:
It’s hard to read your posts and I hope you are improving your formatting but it is the same stuff you posted a few pages ago that makes little sense when you look at facts and what has happened since. If I have the perspective that 1 +1 is 3 it is different and I escape the echo chamber of all the people that think it’s 2 but it is still wrong and when people who me a bunch of proofs to show why it’s wrong if I stick to it, I’m not interesting, I’m either really dumb or some sort of edge lord.
The VAST majority of people in Ukraine do not want to be under Russian rule, and the Russians actions in this war have just made that so much clearer to them.
Some times it’s not an echo chamber, it is facts. You are not to argue about facts with questions. You are to agree on facts and argue about solutions or opinions on those facts. If you are going to just “believe “ the Russian POV as you call it, when it is so obviously not factual, there is zero point or value in what you say.
When your facts are derived from the same hegemonic source that is in direct antagonism with it's geopolitical adversaries, then your facts are going to reflect the point of view of the hegemonic actor, ie, the west.
You're right, the majority of people in Ukraine don't want to be in Russia, just the eastern, ethnically Russian parts, that's where Russia has set up shop, that's where people voted to join. The only reason Russia has to go forward, is too topple Kiev to ensure NATO doesn't use what's left of Ukraine as a continued staging ground for future assaults on Russia.
Remember, from the Russian point of view, Ukraine has been used as staging ground to nearly destroy Russia 3 times in the last century and a half, from Napolean to WWI to WWII.
If you can't understand this then you won't ever see beyond your own nose, geopolitically.
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United States43666 Posts
On August 10 2023 08:32 captainwaffles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 08:26 JimmiC wrote:
It’s hard to read your posts and I hope you are improving your formatting but it is the same stuff you posted a few pages ago that makes little sense when you look at facts and what has happened since. If I have the perspective that 1 +1 is 3 it is different and I escape the echo chamber of all the people that think it’s 2 but it is still wrong and when people who me a bunch of proofs to show why it’s wrong if I stick to it, I’m not interesting, I’m either really dumb or some sort of edge lord.
The VAST majority of people in Ukraine do not want to be under Russian rule, and the Russians actions in this war have just made that so much clearer to them.
Some times it’s not an echo chamber, it is facts. You are not to argue about facts with questions. You are to agree on facts and argue about solutions or opinions on those facts. If you are going to just “believe “ the Russian POV as you call it, when it is so obviously not factual, there is zero point or value in what you say. When your facts are derived from the same hegemonic source that is in direct antagonism with it's geopolitical adversaries, then your facts are going to reflect the point of view of the hegemonic actor, ie, the west. You're right, the majority of people in Ukraine don't want to be in Russia, just the eastern, ethnically Russian parts, that's where Russia has set up shop, that's where people voted to join. The only reason Russia has to go forward, is too topple Kiev to ensure NATO doesn't use what's left of Ukraine as a continued staging ground for future assaults on Russia. Remember, from the Russian point of view, Ukraine has been used as staging ground to nearly destroy Russia 3 times in the last century and a half, from Napolean to WWI to WWII. If you can't understand this then you won't ever see beyond your own nose, geopolitically.
They have nukes and nobody is trying to invade them. Napoleon is dead. They idea that Ukraine is an existential threat is a fantasy. And even if it was that still does not give them the right to invade. You can’t invade places just because you’re feeling insecure.
Also in none of those instances was Ukraine a staging ground. Ukraine, just like the modern Russian Federation, was a component of the Russian Empire/USSR. It’s not a staging ground, Ukraine was the place invaded those times, just as Russia was.
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I find it funny to complain about the western media as if they were some kind of monolith, and then turn around and trust blindly state media
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Northern Ireland26340 Posts
On August 10 2023 09:42 Erasme wrote:
I find it funny to complain about the western media as if they were some kind of monolith, and then turn around and trust blindly state media
It’s fucking bizarre.
Western media has all sorts of biases and flaws, but it is quite diverse as well. People who may, or may not want to screw your doomed attempt to understand the world, for all sorts of reasons doing so.
Versus like, transparently blatant propaganda that all pushes in the same rough direction, under the exact same pressures from above.
It’s like people got the memo that ‘everything is biased ultimately’, which it is and stopped listening at that point and decided that that equates to an equivalence of reliability, or a lack thereof across the board.
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Interesting telegram translation of someone describing how the military culture in the Russian army promotes lying about destroying decoys as real targets, and re-filming and re-hitting already destroyed equipment like a Bradley from different angles and with different weapons to be able to claim multiple kills from a single kill. Because the positive reports get rewarded even if it's false.
"When civilians are surprised by Lancets and Krasnopols attacking enemy decoys, that’s normal. But when people who at least served conscript service are surprised by it (and even more so they ridicule it), then you should also be surprised.
The Soviet system of military service (which we have morally preserved) is very simple. The primary desire for a military man is to make something go boom, let's be honest. The more modern and powerful the available weapons are, the greater the internal need to boom them. The category "expensive" in military psychology is not applicable if it is not coming from your salary.
The second point are the reports. You can know for sure that you are hitting a decoy, and not the enemy’s vehicle, you can suspect this, but if the decoy as a whole is not bad and suits you for a report, then you hit it and report about success to the top.
Any Soviet officer (whom many people f*p on today) would have done just that. Because the army is simple. Because your report about the hit target (especially a “fat” one) is a joy for you, and for the authorities, and for the authorities of the authorities.
But if you give an “All Clear” and write a dull report that "the detected target turned out to be false and it seemed inappropriate to hit it because of the need to save precision-guided ammunition," then you will become an a*shole for both the authorities and fellow officers. And for all of them, you will be “not really military.”
How is this problem solved by the enemy? Their "Western specialists" got control over the targets. They did not try to break the established psychotype of the Soviet officer school (Ukrainian officers, especially the older ones, remained Soviet in their psychotype, there’s nowhere for anything else to come from), they simply took control, removing the motivation to create false reports. A kind of substitution of the military classics for a business approach.
But we're not only hitting wooden models. Now I’ll say a vile and unpopular thing, but let at least one active officer point that out if I’m lying: before, and after the appearance of Western military equipment - in general, a very popular way to give a good result upwards is to beautifully fire at the enemy’s already destroyed equipment.
Bradley, that was ATGMed yesterday, today can be beautifully fired at from helicopters, and tomorrow you can hit it from self-propelled guns. With video recording, reports, and all the right angles. So this becomes not one, but three wrecked Bradleys. Since the political leadership is demanding a specific report, the General Staff will demand such a report too.
And the military will solve it the way they know how - in a military way. I won't list specific examples, but everyone in the army knows perfectly well what I'm talking about. This is not exotic, this is already a mass practice.
Exotic is to make an order for a service of designing pictures a video of an objective control of a battle. You give an acquaintance a video and a photo of a wrecked MTLB, you give him a task, and he returns high-quality pictures to you, where instead of an MTLB there is a tank or self-propelled guns, next to which there are several wrecked infantry fighting vehicles.
But in the army itself, no one will ever try and fight this, and it is stupid to scold the General Staff or the minister. Some external solution is needed. Something similar to how the targets of the Ukrainians are controlled by Western instructors.
Because for the military, everything that I mentioned above is, as it were, not a crime, and not even a “Zalyot” [i.e. blunder]. “Zalyot” is when you were caught doing this, but caught in such a way that you could not get yourself out. Passing out the John Deere harvesters as Leopards was, of course, an oversight, but even then they got away. Although this should be punished three times, primarily those who were stupid enough to create this setup and get caught.
And the rest ... The political leadership has its own universe, from which it gives orders and instructions to the military leadership. The military leadership already has its own universe, very different. And it gives instructions down and reports up, based on its vision of the situation. At the bottom - there is generally a harsh reality, but its adjusted for military perception. The necessary reports are required from you in the universe of military leadership, and if reality does not correspond to it, these are problems of reality. You're an officer, you can do it."
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United States43666 Posts
Makes perfect sense if you’re working within a system you don’t believe in. Keep your head down and optimize for the perverse incentives in front of you. Winning the war is Putin’s goal but it doesn’t make a difference to you.
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On August 10 2023 10:12 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Interesting telegram translation of someone describing how the military culture in the Russian army promotes lying about destroying decoys as real targets, and re-filming and re-hitting already destroyed equipment like a Bradley from different angles and with different weapons to be able to claim multiple kills from a single kill. Because the positive reports get rewarded even if it's false. https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1689388040307789824
Was common practice in the Soviet Army during WWII. Nothing has changed today.
Antony Beevor, in his book The Second World War, writes
The Stakhanovite mentality was deeply ingrained in the Red Army, and officers felt compelled to inflate or even invent accounts, as a junior lieutenant explained. ‘A report had to be sent in every morning and evening on the losses inflicted on the enemy and on the heroism of the men in the regiment. I had to carry these reports because I had been appointed liaison officer since our battery had no guns left… One morning just out of curiosity I read a paper marked “SECRET” sent by the regimental commander. It said that troops of the regiment had repulsed the enemy’s attack and damaged two tanks, suppressed the fire of four batteries and killed a dozen of Hitler’s soldiers and officers with artillery, rifle and machine-gun fire. And yet I knew perfectly well that the Germans had been sitting peacefully all day in their trenches and that our 75mm guns did not fire a single shell. I cannot really say that this report surprised me. By that time we were already used to following the example of the Sovinform Bureau [an official news agency].’
Source: Beevor, Antony. The Second World War (p. 364). Little, Brown and Company. Kindle Edition.
On August 10 2023 07:32 Excludos wrote:Edit2: nevermind. I see he's temp banned. So no point continuing bashing my head against the wall. Let's un-derail this thread a little bit. Here's some interesting news: https://liveuamap.com/en/2023/9-august-ukraine-for-the-first-time-ammo-produced-by-theApparently, Russia is now using ammo provided by North Korea. And whilst it's a shame Russia is getting more ammunition to use, it is somewhat funny that what used to be considered the second biggest military in the world was brought so far down to their knees they've had to beg North Korea for support
South Korea is providing huge amounts of artillery rounds to Ukraine.
Source:
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/south-korean-ammunition-headed-ukraine-via-us-wsj-2023-05-25/
The two Koreas are two of the only countries on earth that have stockpiled artillery rounds at sufficient levels to actually fight and win a war. By comparison, the US and all Western nations have not taken their defense so seriously in terms of basic munitions production for the last 30 years. The industrial decline of the US with respect to munitions in particular has been remarkable, and not in a good way.
It's not surprising that Russia and Ukraine are both reaching out to the Koreas for ammunition. In fact it was totally predictable on Feb 24, 2022.
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United States43666 Posts
South Korea has technically only been participating in circle trades. No SK shells are in Ukraine. Shells are fungible though, restocking US armouries so the US can give theirs to Ukraine is technically not sending them to Ukraine but amounts to the same.
Maintaining wartime production capabilities during peacetime is hard because you need a production line capable of scaling up 100x overnight but nobody wants to pay for it. People get mad at the waste of money when the military makes giant idle tank storage areas. This is why it’s so important to have a strong military export industry. You can do something with all that surplus production and then if you ever go to war you can cancel all orders because you control the capacity. And why it’s so dangerous to rely on military imports, if you go to war and suddenly need 100x the usual quantity you’re entirely at the whims of your supplier.
The US is the leader in global arms exports.
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On August 10 2023 10:50 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 10:12 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Interesting telegram translation of someone describing how the military culture in the Russian army promotes lying about destroying decoys as real targets, and re-filming and re-hitting already destroyed equipment like a Bradley from different angles and with different weapons to be able to claim multiple kills from a single kill. Because the positive reports get rewarded even if it's false. https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1689388040307789824 Was common practice in the Soviet Army during WWII. Nothing has changed today. Antony Beevor, in his book The Second World War, writes Show nested quote +
The Stakhanovite mentality was deeply ingrained in the Red Army, and officers felt compelled to inflate or even invent accounts, as a junior lieutenant explained. ‘A report had to be sent in every morning and evening on the losses inflicted on the enemy and on the heroism of the men in the regiment. I had to carry these reports because I had been appointed liaison officer since our battery had no guns left… One morning just out of curiosity I read a paper marked “SECRET” sent by the regimental commander. It said that troops of the regiment had repulsed the enemy’s attack and damaged two tanks, suppressed the fire of four batteries and killed a dozen of Hitler’s soldiers and officers with artillery, rifle and machine-gun fire. And yet I knew perfectly well that the Germans had been sitting peacefully all day in their trenches and that our 75mm guns did not fire a single shell. I cannot really say that this report surprised me. By that time we were already used to following the example of the Sovinform Bureau [an official news agency].’
Source: Beevor, Antony. The Second World War (p. 364). Little, Brown and Company. Kindle Edition. Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 07:32 Excludos wrote:Edit2: nevermind. I see he's temp banned. So no point continuing bashing my head against the wall. Let's un-derail this thread a little bit. Here's some interesting news: https://liveuamap.com/en/2023/9-august-ukraine-for-the-first-time-ammo-produced-by-theApparently, Russia is now using ammo provided by North Korea. And whilst it's a shame Russia is getting more ammunition to use, it is somewhat funny that what used to be considered the second biggest military in the world was brought so far down to their knees they've had to beg North Korea for support South Korea is providing huge amounts of artillery rounds to Ukraine. Source: https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/south-korean-ammunition-headed-ukraine-via-us-wsj-2023-05-25/The two Koreas are two of the only countries on earth that have stockpiled artillery rounds at sufficient levels to actually fight and win a war. By comparison, the US and all Western nations have not taken their defense so seriously in terms of basic munitions production for the last 30 years. The industrial decline of the US with respect to munitions in particular has been remarkable, and not in a good way. It's not surprising that Russia and Ukraine are both reaching out to the Koreas for ammunition. In fact it was totally predictable on Feb 24, 2022.
It's less about not taking it seriously and more about the wars we expect to fight. Having that much artillery ammo over there makes sense. Not so much here.
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On August 10 2023 10:12 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Interesting telegram translation of someone describing how the military culture in the Russian army promotes lying about destroying decoys as real targets, and re-filming and re-hitting already destroyed equipment like a Bradley from different angles and with different weapons to be able to claim multiple kills from a single kill. Because the positive reports get rewarded even if it's false. https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1689388040307789824Show nested quote +"When civilians are surprised by Lancets and Krasnopols attacking enemy decoys, that’s normal. But when people who at least served conscript service are surprised by it (and even more so they ridicule it), then you should also be surprised.
The Soviet system of military service (which we have morally preserved) is very simple. The primary desire for a military man is to make something go boom, let's be honest. The more modern and powerful the available weapons are, the greater the internal need to boom them. The category "expensive" in military psychology is not applicable if it is not coming from your salary.
The second point are the reports. You can know for sure that you are hitting a decoy, and not the enemy’s vehicle, you can suspect this, but if the decoy as a whole is not bad and suits you for a report, then you hit it and report about success to the top.
Any Soviet officer (whom many people f*p on today) would have done just that. Because the army is simple. Because your report about the hit target (especially a “fat” one) is a joy for you, and for the authorities, and for the authorities of the authorities.
But if you give an “All Clear” and write a dull report that "the detected target turned out to be false and it seemed inappropriate to hit it because of the need to save precision-guided ammunition," then you will become an a*shole for both the authorities and fellow officers. And for all of them, you will be “not really military.”
How is this problem solved by the enemy? Their "Western specialists" got control over the targets. They did not try to break the established psychotype of the Soviet officer school (Ukrainian officers, especially the older ones, remained Soviet in their psychotype, there’s nowhere for anything else to come from), they simply took control, removing the motivation to create false reports. A kind of substitution of the military classics for a business approach.
But we're not only hitting wooden models. Now I’ll say a vile and unpopular thing, but let at least one active officer point that out if I’m lying: before, and after the appearance of Western military equipment - in general, a very popular way to give a good result upwards is to beautifully fire at the enemy’s already destroyed equipment.
Bradley, that was ATGMed yesterday, today can be beautifully fired at from helicopters, and tomorrow you can hit it from self-propelled guns. With video recording, reports, and all the right angles. So this becomes not one, but three wrecked Bradleys. Since the political leadership is demanding a specific report, the General Staff will demand such a report too.
And the military will solve it the way they know how - in a military way. I won't list specific examples, but everyone in the army knows perfectly well what I'm talking about. This is not exotic, this is already a mass practice.
Exotic is to make an order for a service of designing pictures a video of an objective control of a battle. You give an acquaintance a video and a photo of a wrecked MTLB, you give him a task, and he returns high-quality pictures to you, where instead of an MTLB there is a tank or self-propelled guns, next to which there are several wrecked infantry fighting vehicles.
But in the army itself, no one will ever try and fight this, and it is stupid to scold the General Staff or the minister. Some external solution is needed. Something similar to how the targets of the Ukrainians are controlled by Western instructors.
Because for the military, everything that I mentioned above is, as it were, not a crime, and not even a “Zalyot” [i.e. blunder]. “Zalyot” is when you were caught doing this, but caught in such a way that you could not get yourself out. Passing out the John Deere harvesters as Leopards was, of course, an oversight, but even then they got away. Although this should be punished three times, primarily those who were stupid enough to create this setup and get caught.
And the rest ... The political leadership has its own universe, from which it gives orders and instructions to the military leadership. The military leadership already has its own universe, very different. And it gives instructions down and reports up, based on its vision of the situation. At the bottom - there is generally a harsh reality, but its adjusted for military perception. The necessary reports are required from you in the universe of military leadership, and if reality does not correspond to it, these are problems of reality. You're an officer, you can do it."
That Colonel Shovalov account is an obvious CiSPO plant. Reading through the other posts just walls of text, no pictures. The people on the troll farms all follow each other so they have between 2-5.000 followers. Some of them get bigger in the pro-Russian Telegram but they all work in the same psyop cookiecutter way
Special Operations Forces
Ukraine (read NATO) has pumped massive amounts of money into these psyop troll farms aimed at Russian social media. You have guys pretending to be concered Russians, angry Russians, innocent Russian, crazy Russians, whatever you can think of theyve tried it. At one point 60% of pro-Russian Telegram channels were these Ukrainians but they eventually blow their cover when they start syncronizing during events and posting the same way.
I always get a good laugh when I read 'a source on pro-Russian Telegram' said this or that. Anyone with even surface level of knowlage going into those accounts can see that they are fake, but when you need to source bot accounts for fake news you are scrapping the bottom of the propaganda barrel. Its always interesting to see what whacky propaganda narative they all try to follow during a period of time.
English telegram doesnt have this problem anywhere near that extent.
Edit: these fake accounts are not aimed at the 'global' audiance. Rather at the Russian population to inject organized doom and gloom during events where there is a thick fog of war and no one knows whats going on. Ukraininan propaganda also farms them for content (see, everything we say is real is real, a 'Russian' said it too)
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On August 10 2023 14:00 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 13:32 zeo wrote:On August 10 2023 10:12 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Interesting telegram translation of someone describing how the military culture in the Russian army promotes lying about destroying decoys as real targets, and re-filming and re-hitting already destroyed equipment like a Bradley from different angles and with different weapons to be able to claim multiple kills from a single kill. Because the positive reports get rewarded even if it's false. https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1689388040307789824"When civilians are surprised by Lancets and Krasnopols attacking enemy decoys, that’s normal. But when people who at least served conscript service are surprised by it (and even more so they ridicule it), then you should also be surprised.
The Soviet system of military service (which we have morally preserved) is very simple. The primary desire for a military man is to make something go boom, let's be honest. The more modern and powerful the available weapons are, the greater the internal need to boom them. The category "expensive" in military psychology is not applicable if it is not coming from your salary.
The second point are the reports. You can know for sure that you are hitting a decoy, and not the enemy’s vehicle, you can suspect this, but if the decoy as a whole is not bad and suits you for a report, then you hit it and report about success to the top.
Any Soviet officer (whom many people f*p on today) would have done just that. Because the army is simple. Because your report about the hit target (especially a “fat” one) is a joy for you, and for the authorities, and for the authorities of the authorities.
But if you give an “All Clear” and write a dull report that "the detected target turned out to be false and it seemed inappropriate to hit it because of the need to save precision-guided ammunition," then you will become an a*shole for both the authorities and fellow officers. And for all of them, you will be “not really military.”
How is this problem solved by the enemy? Their "Western specialists" got control over the targets. They did not try to break the established psychotype of the Soviet officer school (Ukrainian officers, especially the older ones, remained Soviet in their psychotype, there’s nowhere for anything else to come from), they simply took control, removing the motivation to create false reports. A kind of substitution of the military classics for a business approach.
But we're not only hitting wooden models. Now I’ll say a vile and unpopular thing, but let at least one active officer point that out if I’m lying: before, and after the appearance of Western military equipment - in general, a very popular way to give a good result upwards is to beautifully fire at the enemy’s already destroyed equipment.
Bradley, that was ATGMed yesterday, today can be beautifully fired at from helicopters, and tomorrow you can hit it from self-propelled guns. With video recording, reports, and all the right angles. So this becomes not one, but three wrecked Bradleys. Since the political leadership is demanding a specific report, the General Staff will demand such a report too.
And the military will solve it the way they know how - in a military way. I won't list specific examples, but everyone in the army knows perfectly well what I'm talking about. This is not exotic, this is already a mass practice.
Exotic is to make an order for a service of designing pictures a video of an objective control of a battle. You give an acquaintance a video and a photo of a wrecked MTLB, you give him a task, and he returns high-quality pictures to you, where instead of an MTLB there is a tank or self-propelled guns, next to which there are several wrecked infantry fighting vehicles.
But in the army itself, no one will ever try and fight this, and it is stupid to scold the General Staff or the minister. Some external solution is needed. Something similar to how the targets of the Ukrainians are controlled by Western instructors.
Because for the military, everything that I mentioned above is, as it were, not a crime, and not even a “Zalyot” [i.e. blunder]. “Zalyot” is when you were caught doing this, but caught in such a way that you could not get yourself out. Passing out the John Deere harvesters as Leopards was, of course, an oversight, but even then they got away. Although this should be punished three times, primarily those who were stupid enough to create this setup and get caught.
And the rest ... The political leadership has its own universe, from which it gives orders and instructions to the military leadership. The military leadership already has its own universe, very different. And it gives instructions down and reports up, based on its vision of the situation. At the bottom - there is generally a harsh reality, but its adjusted for military perception. The necessary reports are required from you in the universe of military leadership, and if reality does not correspond to it, these are problems of reality. You're an officer, you can do it." That Colonel Shovalov account is an obvious CiSPO plant. Reading through the other posts just walls of text, no pictures. The people on the troll farms all follow each other so they have between 2-5.000 followers. Some of them get bigger in the pro-Russian Telegram but they all work in the same psyop cookiecutter way Special Operations ForcesUkraine (read NATO) has pumped massive amounts of money into these psyop troll farms aimed at Russian social media. You have guys pretending to be concered Russians, angry Russians, innocent Russian, crazy Russians, whatever you can think of theyve tried it. At one point 60% of pro-Russian Telegram channels were these Ukrainians but they eventually blow their cover when they start syncronizing during events and posting the same way. I always get a good laugh when I read 'a source on pro-Russian Telegram' said this or that. Anyone with even surface level of knowlage going into those accounts can see that they are fake, but when you need to source bot accounts for fake news you are scrapping the bottom of the propaganda barrel. Its always interesting to see what whacky propaganda narative they all try to follow during a period of time. English telegram doesnt have this problem anywhere near that extent. Sorry but I think you missed the part where you prove it’s a boy account. All so see is that not accounts exist and this account is saying something you do not like. Did I miss the evidence? It also seems like a dumb thing to waste you psyops on when you could instead be convincing people to fire bomb recruitment Center’s. All this does is explain the reason behind what we have already witnessed of Russian bloggers re filming destruction and bragging about destroying decoys.
Just go into the account and google translate any random post. That translated post that was posted on this page has the following top reactions: 111 thumbs up, 32 laughing smiley faces, 5 minds blown, 5 clapping emojies ect. Totaly the normal reactions of normal Russians reading a post like that.
Just text walls of the poorest quality trolling and trust me guys im in the Russian military, all the while getting close to the same amount of thumbs ups and smiley faces for each post.
You know what, I'm actually a Nigerian prince and Ive been trapped in Serbia for the lonest time with no access to my 10.000.000 dollars. Could you send some money over to me so I can go home?
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On August 10 2023 14:53 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 14:00 JimmiC wrote:On August 10 2023 13:32 zeo wrote:On August 10 2023 10:12 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Interesting telegram translation of someone describing how the military culture in the Russian army promotes lying about destroying decoys as real targets, and re-filming and re-hitting already destroyed equipment like a Bradley from different angles and with different weapons to be able to claim multiple kills from a single kill. Because the positive reports get rewarded even if it's false. https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1689388040307789824"When civilians are surprised by Lancets and Krasnopols attacking enemy decoys, that’s normal. But when people who at least served conscript service are surprised by it (and even more so they ridicule it), then you should also be surprised.
The Soviet system of military service (which we have morally preserved) is very simple. The primary desire for a military man is to make something go boom, let's be honest. The more modern and powerful the available weapons are, the greater the internal need to boom them. The category "expensive" in military psychology is not applicable if it is not coming from your salary.
The second point are the reports. You can know for sure that you are hitting a decoy, and not the enemy’s vehicle, you can suspect this, but if the decoy as a whole is not bad and suits you for a report, then you hit it and report about success to the top.
Any Soviet officer (whom many people f*p on today) would have done just that. Because the army is simple. Because your report about the hit target (especially a “fat” one) is a joy for you, and for the authorities, and for the authorities of the authorities.
But if you give an “All Clear” and write a dull report that "the detected target turned out to be false and it seemed inappropriate to hit it because of the need to save precision-guided ammunition," then you will become an a*shole for both the authorities and fellow officers. And for all of them, you will be “not really military.”
How is this problem solved by the enemy? Their "Western specialists" got control over the targets. They did not try to break the established psychotype of the Soviet officer school (Ukrainian officers, especially the older ones, remained Soviet in their psychotype, there’s nowhere for anything else to come from), they simply took control, removing the motivation to create false reports. A kind of substitution of the military classics for a business approach.
But we're not only hitting wooden models. Now I’ll say a vile and unpopular thing, but let at least one active officer point that out if I’m lying: before, and after the appearance of Western military equipment - in general, a very popular way to give a good result upwards is to beautifully fire at the enemy’s already destroyed equipment.
Bradley, that was ATGMed yesterday, today can be beautifully fired at from helicopters, and tomorrow you can hit it from self-propelled guns. With video recording, reports, and all the right angles. So this becomes not one, but three wrecked Bradleys. Since the political leadership is demanding a specific report, the General Staff will demand such a report too.
And the military will solve it the way they know how - in a military way. I won't list specific examples, but everyone in the army knows perfectly well what I'm talking about. This is not exotic, this is already a mass practice.
Exotic is to make an order for a service of designing pictures a video of an objective control of a battle. You give an acquaintance a video and a photo of a wrecked MTLB, you give him a task, and he returns high-quality pictures to you, where instead of an MTLB there is a tank or self-propelled guns, next to which there are several wrecked infantry fighting vehicles.
But in the army itself, no one will ever try and fight this, and it is stupid to scold the General Staff or the minister. Some external solution is needed. Something similar to how the targets of the Ukrainians are controlled by Western instructors.
Because for the military, everything that I mentioned above is, as it were, not a crime, and not even a “Zalyot” [i.e. blunder]. “Zalyot” is when you were caught doing this, but caught in such a way that you could not get yourself out. Passing out the John Deere harvesters as Leopards was, of course, an oversight, but even then they got away. Although this should be punished three times, primarily those who were stupid enough to create this setup and get caught.
And the rest ... The political leadership has its own universe, from which it gives orders and instructions to the military leadership. The military leadership already has its own universe, very different. And it gives instructions down and reports up, based on its vision of the situation. At the bottom - there is generally a harsh reality, but its adjusted for military perception. The necessary reports are required from you in the universe of military leadership, and if reality does not correspond to it, these are problems of reality. You're an officer, you can do it." That Colonel Shovalov account is an obvious CiSPO plant. Reading through the other posts just walls of text, no pictures. The people on the troll farms all follow each other so they have between 2-5.000 followers. Some of them get bigger in the pro-Russian Telegram but they all work in the same psyop cookiecutter way Special Operations ForcesUkraine (read NATO) has pumped massive amounts of money into these psyop troll farms aimed at Russian social media. You have guys pretending to be concered Russians, angry Russians, innocent Russian, crazy Russians, whatever you can think of theyve tried it. At one point 60% of pro-Russian Telegram channels were these Ukrainians but they eventually blow their cover when they start syncronizing during events and posting the same way. I always get a good laugh when I read 'a source on pro-Russian Telegram' said this or that. Anyone with even surface level of knowlage going into those accounts can see that they are fake, but when you need to source bot accounts for fake news you are scrapping the bottom of the propaganda barrel. Its always interesting to see what whacky propaganda narative they all try to follow during a period of time. English telegram doesnt have this problem anywhere near that extent. Sorry but I think you missed the part where you prove it’s a boy account. All so see is that not accounts exist and this account is saying something you do not like. Did I miss the evidence? It also seems like a dumb thing to waste you psyops on when you could instead be convincing people to fire bomb recruitment Center’s. All this does is explain the reason behind what we have already witnessed of Russian bloggers re filming destruction and bragging about destroying decoys. Just go into the account and google translate any random post. That translated post that was posted on this page has the following top reactions: 111 thumbs up, 32 laughing smiley faces, 5 minds blown, 5 clapping emojies ect. Totaly the normal reactions of normal Russians reading a post like that. Just text walls of the poorest quality trolling and trust me guys im in the Russian military, all the while getting close to the same amount of thumbs ups and smiley faces for each post. You know what, I'm actually a Nigerian prince and Ive been trapped in Serbia for the lonest time with no access to my 10.000.000 dollars. Could you send some money over to me so I can go home?
Source: "Trust me bro. No Russian would write wall of text. In fact. Russians don't really know how to write more than 2 sentences in a row. Also, Russians uses different emojis! They don't use the silly thumbs up symbol, they use small pictures of abducted children at gun point.
Here's something completely unrelated to prove my point. No. I'm not going to engage with any of you said"
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On August 10 2023 16:31 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2023 14:53 zeo wrote:On August 10 2023 14:00 JimmiC wrote:On August 10 2023 13:32 zeo wrote:On August 10 2023 10:12 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Interesting telegram translation of someone describing how the military culture in the Russian army promotes lying about destroying decoys as real targets, and re-filming and re-hitting already destroyed equipment like a Bradley from different angles and with different weapons to be able to claim multiple kills from a single kill. Because the positive reports get rewarded even if it's false. https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1689388040307789824"When civilians are surprised by Lancets and Krasnopols attacking enemy decoys, that’s normal. But when people who at least served conscript service are surprised by it (and even more so they ridicule it), then you should also be surprised.
The Soviet system of military service (which we have morally preserved) is very simple. The primary desire for a military man is to make something go boom, let's be honest. The more modern and powerful the available weapons are, the greater the internal need to boom them. The category "expensive" in military psychology is not applicable if it is not coming from your salary.
The second point are the reports. You can know for sure that you are hitting a decoy, and not the enemy’s vehicle, you can suspect this, but if the decoy as a whole is not bad and suits you for a report, then you hit it and report about success to the top.
Any Soviet officer (whom many people f*p on today) would have done just that. Because the army is simple. Because your report about the hit target (especially a “fat” one) is a joy for you, and for the authorities, and for the authorities of the authorities.
But if you give an “All Clear” and write a dull report that "the detected target turned out to be false and it seemed inappropriate to hit it because of the need to save precision-guided ammunition," then you will become an a*shole for both the authorities and fellow officers. And for all of them, you will be “not really military.”
How is this problem solved by the enemy? Their "Western specialists" got control over the targets. They did not try to break the established psychotype of the Soviet officer school (Ukrainian officers, especially the older ones, remained Soviet in their psychotype, there’s nowhere for anything else to come from), they simply took control, removing the motivation to create false reports. A kind of substitution of the military classics for a business approach.
But we're not only hitting wooden models. Now I’ll say a vile and unpopular thing, but let at least one active officer point that out if I’m lying: before, and after the appearance of Western military equipment - in general, a very popular way to give a good result upwards is to beautifully fire at the enemy’s already destroyed equipment.
Bradley, that was ATGMed yesterday, today can be beautifully fired at from helicopters, and tomorrow you can hit it from self-propelled guns. With video recording, reports, and all the right angles. So this becomes not one, but three wrecked Bradleys. Since the political leadership is demanding a specific report, the General Staff will demand such a report too.
And the military will solve it the way they know how - in a military way. I won't list specific examples, but everyone in the army knows perfectly well what I'm talking about. This is not exotic, this is already a mass practice.
Exotic is to make an order for a service of designing pictures a video of an objective control of a battle. You give an acquaintance a video and a photo of a wrecked MTLB, you give him a task, and he returns high-quality pictures to you, where instead of an MTLB there is a tank or self-propelled guns, next to which there are several wrecked infantry fighting vehicles.
But in the army itself, no one will ever try and fight this, and it is stupid to scold the General Staff or the minister. Some external solution is needed. Something similar to how the targets of the Ukrainians are controlled by Western instructors.
Because for the military, everything that I mentioned above is, as it were, not a crime, and not even a “Zalyot” [i.e. blunder]. “Zalyot” is when you were caught doing this, but caught in such a way that you could not get yourself out. Passing out the John Deere harvesters as Leopards was, of course, an oversight, but even then they got away. Although this should be punished three times, primarily those who were stupid enough to create this setup and get caught.
And the rest ... The political leadership has its own universe, from which it gives orders and instructions to the military leadership. The military leadership already has its own universe, very different. And it gives instructions down and reports up, based on its vision of the situation. At the bottom - there is generally a harsh reality, but its adjusted for military perception. The necessary reports are required from you in the universe of military leadership, and if reality does not correspond to it, these are problems of reality. You're an officer, you can do it." That Colonel Shovalov account is an obvious CiSPO plant. Reading through the other posts just walls of text, no pictures. The people on the troll farms all follow each other so they have between 2-5.000 followers. Some of them get bigger in the pro-Russian Telegram but they all work in the same psyop cookiecutter way Special Operations ForcesUkraine (read NATO) has pumped massive amounts of money into these psyop troll farms aimed at Russian social media. You have guys pretending to be concered Russians, angry Russians, innocent Russian, crazy Russians, whatever you can think of theyve tried it. At one point 60% of pro-Russian Telegram channels were these Ukrainians but they eventually blow their cover when they start syncronizing during events and posting the same way. I always get a good laugh when I read 'a source on pro-Russian Telegram' said this or that. Anyone with even surface level of knowlage going into those accounts can see that they are fake, but when you need to source bot accounts for fake news you are scrapping the bottom of the propaganda barrel. Its always interesting to see what whacky propaganda narative they all try to follow during a period of time. English telegram doesnt have this problem anywhere near that extent. Sorry but I think you missed the part where you prove it’s a boy account. All so see is that not accounts exist and this account is saying something you do not like. Did I miss the evidence? It also seems like a dumb thing to waste you psyops on when you could instead be convincing people to fire bomb recruitment Center’s. All this does is explain the reason behind what we have already witnessed of Russian bloggers re filming destruction and bragging about destroying decoys. Just go into the account and google translate any random post. That translated post that was posted on this page has the following top reactions: 111 thumbs up, 32 laughing smiley faces, 5 minds blown, 5 clapping emojies ect. Totaly the normal reactions of normal Russians reading a post like that. Just text walls of the poorest quality trolling and trust me guys im in the Russian military, all the while getting close to the same amount of thumbs ups and smiley faces for each post. You know what, I'm actually a Nigerian prince and Ive been trapped in Serbia for the lonest time with no access to my 10.000.000 dollars. Could you send some money over to me so I can go home? Source: "Trust me bro. No Russian would write wall of text. In fact. Russians don't really know how to write more than 2 sentences in a row. Also, Russians uses different emojis! They don't use the silly thumbs up symbol, they use small pictures of abducted children at gun point. Here's something completely unrelated to prove my point. No. I'm not going to engage with any of you said"
Channel created June 16 2023. First few posts are about sabotage groups inside Russia and how the Kremlin will fall in the next few weeks. A post asking where are all the Russian held territories from April 2022. Inactive for the next month. Shows up and starts talking about how for every 11 vacationers that go to Crimea a Russian soldier based in Crimea dies. Posts about how the FSB probably killed a wiretapping expert two posts later.
No chat, no engagement no mention of being in the Russian army. Begining of August massive uptick in reactions to posts starts talking about Russia failing in Syria and Turkey stabbing Russia in the back.
Totally organic guys. 40 posts total and 4000 followers out of thin air. From 1k views on their first post, 10k views on posts after a month on inactivity. Jumping up and down from 25k views to 2k views over a few days. 100k views basically out of nowhere end of July, dropping to 6k two posts later. Same number of reactions the whole time with wildly different view counts
Its almost as if this is a fake account posting fake stories that get linked out when someone needs a 'Russian' source saying what they want them to say.
Edit: I myself wrote an essay on Twitter two months ago without tagging anyone or anything and 30 posts later with no interaction with anyone, I now have 4000 followers. Thank you Elon
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EPT
