EPTRusso-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 530
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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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0x64
Finland4544 Posts
On August 10 2023 23:22 a_ch wrote: -in the picture the missile is lying somewhere in a grove; it is unclear what it was targeted at, or perhaps has it been intercepted or malfunctioned. Therefore, it is also unclear, who fired it. Even so, my point was that if tochkas still in use, we should see mass evidence of it being fired (according to the same wikipedia article, russia had at least several hundreds of them) But if they are not being use, wouldn't there be no evidence of them being used even by either side? | ||
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zeo
Serbia6282 Posts
On August 10 2023 23:46 JimmiC wrote: But here is the thing with your analogy is the information is clearly false and there is an ask.With this what tells you the information is false and what is the ask? We have seen the Russian state TV broadcast combines blown up as tanks, decoys blown up and claimed to be all sorts of “advanced weapons”, we’ve seen the Bradley’s that have been blown up shot from different angles to claim that way more were or were done on multiple days. On top of that we have seen officers promoted after claiming they defended without damage sunk ships and generals fired for speaking highly of their troops but saying they needed more ammo and better logistics. All the facts we have suggest this post is accurate, what does it matter if Russian speaking Ukrainians are upvoting it, of course they are. It also kind of funny because one of the big lies is that all the Russian speaking Ukrainian s want Russian rule, but then also that all the anti Russian talk on these things is just the Russian speaking Ukrainians. The current lines are not even consistent let alone from the start of the invasion until now. If you used the critical eye you use for western media on Russian media it would be very clear to you that they are not remotely in the same ball park. That you do not is why you are not neutral. It is your choice on what you believe but you are lying to yourself when you claim you are neutral. We have a proven fake account being used to promote propaganda aimed at people that will believe anything anti-Russian, because they are being fed the same false narratives over and over again. The fact that even after you found out that a fake account is being used to promote propaganda your first impulse was to say: 'well just because its proven to be propaganda doesn't mean its not true', its just.... It's quite sad actually to see you struggle this much and grasp at straws, why even answer? Its propaganda aimed at you for a reason, it feeds into your biases and insecurities. Take a step back and breath a little. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
Poland is planning to move up to 10,000 additional troops to the border with Belarus to support the Border Guard, Defense Minister Mariusz Blaszczak said on Thursday. "About 10,000 soldiers will be on the border, of which 4,000 will directly support the Border Guard and 6,000 will be in the reserve," the minister said in an interview for public radio. "We move the army closer to the border with Belarus to scare away the aggressor so that it does not dare to attack us," Blaszczak said. Deputy interior minister Maciej Wasik said on Wednesday that Poland would send 2,000 additional troops to its frontier with Belarus. Extra careful on the border Poland has worried increasingly about the border area since hundreds of battle-hardened Wagner mercenaries arrived in Belarus last month at the invitation of President Alexander Lukashenko. Belarus continues its military exercises near the border this week, and President Alexander Lukashenko has said several times that he was restraining Wagner fighters who want to attack Poland. Poland has also seen an increase in the number of mainly Middle Eastern and African migrants trying to cross the border in recent months. The head of the Border Guard, Tomasz Praga, said earlier this week that 19,000 people have tried to cross the Polish-Belarusian border illegally this year, up from 16,000 last year. Source | ||
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0x64
Finland4544 Posts
On August 11 2023 00:09 zeo wrote: We have a proven fake account being used to promote propaganda aimed at people that will believe anything anti-Russian, because they are being fed the same false narratives over and over again. The fact that even after you found out that a fake account is being used to promote propaganda your first impulse was to say: 'well just because its proven to be propaganda doesn't mean its not true', its just.... It's quite sad actually to see you struggle this much and grasp at straws, why even answer? Its propaganda aimed at you for a reason, it feeds into your biases and insecurities. Take a step back and breath a little. Do you know what straw means, you mean to use it until you break the camel back.... | ||
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Sermokala
United States13859 Posts
You've lost the plot so hard you yourself cant tell the difference anymore between what's fact presented as propaganda and lies presented as propaganda. Just change a word in your post and someone could respond the exact same word and it would be a thousand times more valid of an argument. | ||
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a_ch
Russian Federation240 Posts
On August 10 2023 23:40 Magic Powers wrote: The OTR-21 hasn't been in mass use in this war because it's short range and mostly limited to tactical use and not so much strategic. -they have slightly larger range than himars, and decent characteristics in terms of accuracy and power. On August 10 2023 23:40 Magic Powers wrote: You can reject the evidence as much as you want, but fact is that Russia has enough of these missiles in stock. It's completely absurd to argue that Ukraine is more likely to have fired at their own civilians than for Russia to be the real culprit -there is much more evidence: there are witnesses, who saw it flew from south-west; the relative position of the tail and the remnants of the cluster block of the missile on the ground confirms this version. Missile's serial number, photoed by Italian journalist, differs in few last digits from several tochka-u missiles, that were used by the ukrainians, meaning that the missiles are from the same batch. Edit: sorry, I wrote "south-east" in the first edition, which is wrong. -the reason is simple - a false flag attack for PR reasons, and also an act of terror against population of Kramatorsk, which in 2014 was one of the centers of civil uprising. On August 10 2023 23:57 0x64 wrote: But if they are not being use, wouldn't there be no evidence of them being used even by either side? -no, there is evidence of Ukraine using them (for example, it was used to sink a landing ship Saratov) | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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KwarK
United States42495 Posts
On August 11 2023 00:24 a_ch wrote: -they have slightly larger range than himars, and decent characteristics in terms of accuracy and power. -there is much more evidence: there are witnesses, who saw it flew from south-west; the relative position of the tail and the remnants of the cluster block of the missile on the ground confirms this version. Missile's serial number, photoed by Italian journalist, differs in few last digits from several tochka-u missiles, that were used by the ukrainians, meaning that the missiles are from the same batch. Edit: sorry, I wrote "south-east" in the first edition, which is wrong. -the reason is simple - a false flag attack for PR reasons, and also an act of terror against population of Kramatorsk, which in 2014 was one of the centers of civil uprising. -no, there is evidence of Ukraine using them (for example, it was used to sink a landing ship Saratov) Why would Ukraine fake a Russian atrocity when there are so many real ones to choose from? Who would that benefit? Might as well say Bush destroyed one of the two towers but not the other. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4729 Posts
What criteria need to be met before you take something that zeo, a_ch posit seriously? Do only your sources need to verify/report it? | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3862 Posts
On August 11 2023 00:24 a_ch wrote: -they have slightly larger range than himars, and decent characteristics in terms of accuracy and power. -there is much more evidence: there are witnesses, who saw it flew from south-west; the relative position of the tail and the remnants of the cluster block of the missile on the ground confirms this version. Missile's serial number, photoed by Italian journalist, differs in few last digits from several tochka-u missiles, that were used by the ukrainians, meaning that the missiles are from the same batch. Edit: sorry, I wrote "south-east" in the first edition, which is wrong. -the reason is simple - a false flag attack for PR reasons, and also an act of terror against population of Kramatorsk, which in 2014 was one of the centers of civil uprising. -no, there is evidence of Ukraine using them (for example, it was used to sink a landing ship Saratov) The claim of the serial number is nonsense and you'd know that if you had read the ZDF article. It's also explained that there were sufficient options for Russia to send the missile to the target destination. The positioning and remnants also don't prove anything, as the ZDF article addresses. And "eye witness accounts" don't matter. They can't reliably determine where the missile came from, because it can travel at speeds of up to 1.8 km/s. That's over 4000 mph or almost 6500 km/h. Furthermore, people can interpret a diagonal angle into what they're seeing even though the true angle might actually be straight down. At such speeds the human brain can be tricked far too easily. The evidence is insufficent, just accept it and move on. The best explanation is that Russia sent the missile. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5536 Posts
On August 11 2023 01:22 Uldridge wrote: Let me ask you guys a question. What criteria need to be met before you take something that zeo, a_ch posit seriously? Do only your sources need to verify/report it? They'd have to provide reliable sources. Which they don't because if they used reliable sources, they wouldn't have such idiotic takes in the first place. ;-) | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3862 Posts
For a ballistic missile coming from above, and with no prior knowledge of its presence, it's practically impossible for bystanders to determine its direction. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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a_ch
Russian Federation240 Posts
On August 11 2023 01:25 Magic Powers wrote: The claim of the serial number is nonsense and you'd know that if you had read the ZDF article. It's also explained that there were sufficient options for Russia to send the missile to the target destination. The positioning and remnants also don't prove anything, as the ZDF article addresses. -so, in the zdf article some lt. col. says, without any detalization, that theoretically missiles with close serial numbers could have ended up in different countries after USSR collapse. Is this making this evidence nonsence? I'd rather say that probability of a batch splitting, and a missile from this exact splitted batch fired at kramatorsk is miniscule. And all other indirect evidence also favor the version of false flag attack. You've written earlier that in order to understand something clearly in this war one needs to have independent sources of info. I would disagree with you on that - because it is almost impossible. Now all the major sources openly, or covertly side with one the sides of this conflict. (Btw, i've found an interesting exception to this - with some Indian guys speaking on youtube on the reasons of the conflict, and on geopolitics in general). So if you want to sort out something - the best you can do is to decide yourself, comparing the available evidence for possible versions. | ||
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Sermokala
United States13859 Posts
Saying that pieces could have ended up in different parts of the soviet union during the collapse is a very valid argument. I'm sure there are a lot of pieces of equipment that ended up in Ukraine that was made in Russia and likewise during the time they were the same country. I'm sure if the Russians were properly motivated to prove that it was a Ukranian missle they could look up the records for when the thing was manufactured, where it was manufactured, and where it was delivered after manufacture, and where it would have been transferred at the time of the collapse. But they aren't because they don't see a reason to prove anything they say because they know they are lying and their audience knows they are lying and doesn't care anymore. Russia has done thousands of worse things over the war, even if we were to totaly acept this as something Ukraine did for some reason. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
Isn't that what Kwark was saying earlier ? Russians trying to muddy the waters to create the illusion that no source can be trusted ? | ||
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a_ch
Russian Federation240 Posts
On August 11 2023 02:46 Sermokala wrote: Yes we understand from a Russians perspective that media can only be on a "side" in a conflict and lie endlessly for them. Are you aware enough that it is different outside of Russia where there is freedom of the press and that those sources, while possibly presenting them with bias, are using available evidence and independent sources of info? Saying that pieces could have ended up in different parts of the soviet union during the collapse is a very valid argument. I'm sure there are a lot of pieces of equipment that ended up in Ukraine that was made in Russia and likewise during the time they were the same country. I'm sure if the Russians were properly motivated to prove that it was a Ukranian missle they could look up the records for when the thing was manufactured, where it was manufactured, and where it was delivered after manufacture, and where it would have been transferred at the time of the collapse. But they aren't because they don't see a reason to prove anything they say because they know they are lying and their audience knows they are lying and doesn't care anymore. Russia has done thousands of worse things over the war, even if we were to totaly acept this as something Ukraine did for some reason. -yeah, I've used to believe a similar thing, and before 2022 was using exclusively pro-western russian speaking newsmedia (Meduza, if someone knows; their reports quality were generally heads above other media in Russia). It has cost me around 50k USD, when I followed its predictions, that the war will never start btw, (due to stocks plummeting). But the main problem is - it failed to create a non-contradictive big picture of the events (given that I've almost missed the history of the conflict). So, its about 1.5 years of me spending 90% of my free time searching for different sources etc. - and yes, I've come to conclusion that western mass-media is a continuation of intelligence services, same as it is in Russia (which I knew long before the war), - but of a much larger scale. I once said to my friend, that Russian FSB is the largest terrorist organisation in the world, - but now I believe I was wrong - the first place belongs to your country's Intel Community. On August 11 2023 02:48 Erasme wrote: Your best source of information isn't some journalists currently based in Ukraine, but a random indian youtuber ? Goddamn bro that's some sick source, no wonder you trust him so much. Isn't that what Kwark was saying earlier ? Russians trying to muddy the waters to create the illusion that no source can be trusted ? -is, for example, Meiershaimer also a russian spy? And I fail to understand, why do you think that an Indian youtuber is apriori worse than some other national. My point was that he is from a country which is not directly involved. Edit/upd - google Gonsalo Lira to see what happens to journalist in Ukraine, who doesn't follow Kiev's narrative. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4729 Posts
I feel the back and forth to be so tiring, I almost admire you to keep mustering the willpower to reply to the people you find making ridiculous claims. Personally I try to get some broad strokes and then see how it eventually turns out. At the moment I believe it's a slow grind with no end in sight. The narrative is that the West can supply a willing Ukraine indefinitely untill they lack manpower, while Russia tries to scrape by on older and older resources. Is the pride of one man finally going to undo Panslavism? We'll see I guess. Stupid conflict either way. Can't understand geopolicitical tribulations for the life of me. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
To answer your question, yeah some indian youtuber sitting in india just listening to russia today isn't the best source. I guess that he goes in your direction. Also once again, unlike in russia, western journalists arent facing prison if they don't follow the party lign. Is that understood or do you just plug your ears and cover your eyes ? All i can read about gonzalo lira is that he went into kharkov and started spouting kremlin talking points justifying the atrocities of russia and blaming it on ukraine. Lira is a blogger, who made a transition from offering sleazy “dating coach” advice to men as “Coach Red Pill,” to providing propaganda fodder for the Russian state media that eagerly picked up and disseminated his multiple dispatches from Ukraine. In his videos, Lira insulted the president of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelensky, and described Ukrainians defending their land from Russian invaders as “armed criminals.” Ukrainian authorities allege that Lira filmed Ukrainian soldiers, making a specific effort to capture their likeness and attempting to discredit their military service. from www.thedailybeast.com Obviously a couple websites (such as the quebec communist party lol) are trying to make a hero out of him, but lets be honest, any "red pill coach" is either fondamently stupid or a crook. Please do you have any sources that isn't rotten to the core or an indian youtuber ? Lira blamed Ukraine for being attacked by Russia, describing the ongoing war as “one of the most brilliant invasions in military history.” He defended Putin’s motives, claiming that the Russians were taking special pains to avoid damaging civilian infrastructure or harming civilians and predicting that Ukraine would flourish under Russia’s control. He disseminated a number of debunked conspiracy theories, including Russian allegations of locating “American bioweapons labs” in Ukraine. Sources involved in the investigation say that Lira’s appearance on The Donbass Devushka’s show prompted additional scrutiny of Lira’s activities, which were being monitored after his questioning and release last year. I mean come on buddy, can't you use your eyes and see how dumb you're looking when defending such an idiot ? Also calling him a "journalist" just made me laugh thank you | ||
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