NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
On August 07 2023 18:41 Nezgar wrote: Just for the record: So far there has been visual confirmation for 4 destroyed Leopard (2 A4 and 2 A6) and 22 destroyed Bradley. This is far from "every day", though Russian media and sources sure would like you to believe that. This low rate of attrition will continue like this until the Ukrainians are certain that a concerted push will achieve a breakthrough of the Russian defensive lines, at which point they will commit the majority of those formations held in reserve for the moment.
-my claim considered only the part about the infantry losses being not trustworthy. Your implication "this cannot be trusted, because they also say this and that" is quite meaningless, especially given that your numbers on Leo\Bradley in the same post are incorrect; photo\video confirmations on 9+3 Leo 1 and 2 and 35 M2Bradleys can be found in the database here: https://lostarmour.info/armour
Yeah, I am not going to trust the numbers on a hardcore pro-Russia website. When you have been lying this systematically about literally anything, all your credibility as a society and as a nation has completely gone out of the window.
What you are posting there is a Russian propaganda website. So you can kindly take that and shove it up your arse if that makes you happy.
I myself also do not believe vetted visual conformation from multiple angles and sources because it goes against what I believed happened. Why should anyone believe video evidence of something happening when the other side that i support in xyz conflict states 'lol, no it didnt happen!' while a collumn of black smoke rises up behind them. Why would you believe your own eyes? Youre not a Russian are you?
Why are you showing me pictures of blackened and rusted tanks split in half with their turrents blown off 500 meters to the side? That was all recovered and towed back to Poland and probably good as new by now. But did you see that tank the other guys are using? Got scratched by a tree branch, thats a fucking write off mate no way those guys inside survived.
For me to believe the destruction of 200 troops of the side i dislike by my wunderwaffen or any other whacky claim: all i need is a pin dropped on a google map showing where it happened and a video showing the dropped pin with dramatic background music. I dont need visual conformation or any kind of evidence that would in any way, shape or form corroborate the statement. A Reddit post got 5k upvotes for it. What more do you want you shill? Asking for visual conformation is the devil and a sign you are brainwashed by propaganda.
Ill just throw a blanket statement about how im superior to everyone and anyone that is not from my culture is a dirty lier because youve always been liers, not enlightened and 100% truthful like us
Wow Zeo, that's a magnificent strawman you built there. 10/10 would read again. Doesn't even need the Wizard of Oz to give it a heart as it's clearly living in your mind. It is, of course the only place your strawman lives, but don't let that distract you from its magnificence!
On August 08 2023 08:47 captainwaffles wrote: The disappearance of Gonzalo Lira weighs heavily on those of us who have been paying attention to the conflict from the Russian POV:
God protect Gonzalo, the US government certainly doesn't give a shit about it's own citizens being rounded up by the Ukrainian government.
Do you believe this to be factually accurate or just from the Russian point of view? And if not completely factually accurate which parts do you not believe?
I believe everything I've posted to be factually accurate.
On August 08 2023 05:35 Mutaller wrote: Why are we so concerned about numbers in the first place? Do we really think it a way to determine who is winning? Even if Ukrainians had a number advantage now the Russian nation has a much larger military. As far as we know Russia has been fighting with primarily rural forces. Russia has nearly a million man army and the 3rd largest military budget, western forces will continue to supply Ukraine, and we have accomplished George Orwell's 1984's war in Eurasia, this'll be a perpetual war. There is no winner in sight
You do realise that you are somewhat contradicting yourself? First you question why we focus on numbers to determine who's winning. Then you argue that there's no winner in sight because russia has this number of armed forces and that largest military budget in the world. So kind of, numbers don't really matter, but here are some numbers to make my point...
On August 07 2023 18:41 Nezgar wrote: Just for the record: So far there has been visual confirmation for 4 destroyed Leopard (2 A4 and 2 A6) and 22 destroyed Bradley. This is far from "every day", though Russian media and sources sure would like you to believe that. This low rate of attrition will continue like this until the Ukrainians are certain that a concerted push will achieve a breakthrough of the Russian defensive lines, at which point they will commit the majority of those formations held in reserve for the moment.
-my claim considered only the part about the infantry losses being not trustworthy. Your implication "this cannot be trusted, because they also say this and that" is quite meaningless, especially given that your numbers on Leo\Bradley in the same post are incorrect; photo\video confirmations on 9+3 Leo 1 and 2 and 35 M2Bradleys can be found in the database here: https://lostarmour.info/armour
Yeah, I am not going to trust the numbers on a hardcore pro-Russia website. When you have been lying this systematically about literally anything, all your credibility as a society and as a nation has completely gone out of the window.
What you are posting there is a Russian propaganda website. So you can kindly take that and shove it up your arse if that makes you happy.
I myself also do not believe vetted visual conformation from multiple angles and sources because it goes against what I believed happened. Why should anyone believe video evidence of something happening when the other side that i support in xyz conflict states 'lol, no it didnt happen!' while a collumn of black smoke rises up behind them. Why would you believe your own eyes? Youre not a Russian are you?
Why are you showing me pictures of blackened and rusted tanks split in half with their turrents blown off 500 meters to the side? That was all recovered and towed back to Poland and probably good as new by now. But did you see that tank the other guys are using? Got scratched by a tree branch, thats a fucking write off mate no way those guys inside survived.
For me to believe the destruction of 200 troops of the side i dislike by my wunderwaffen or any other whacky claim: all i need is a pin dropped on a google map showing where it happened and a video showing the dropped pin with dramatic background music. I dont need visual conformation or any kind of evidence that would in any way, shape or form corroborate the statement. A Reddit post got 5k upvotes for it. What more do you want you shill? Asking for visual conformation is the devil and a sign you are brainwashed by propaganda.
Ill just throw a blanket statement about how im superior to everyone and anyone that is not from my culture is a dirty lier because youve always been liers, not enlightened and 100% truthful like us
Wow Zeo, that's a magnificent strawman you built there. 10/10 would read again. Doesn't even need the Wizard of Oz to give it a heart as it's clearly living in your mind. It is, of course the only place your strawman lives, but don't let that distract you from its magnificence!
Now you know what its like for neutral people to read 90% of what is posted in this thread, I was just mirroring the style. We can all do better to leave the rhetoric behind, clapping and cheering for demagoguery and hypocrisy when the one being a demagogue is 'on our side' helps no one and should give you pause if you have the capacity for critical thought.
On August 08 2023 03:06 a_ch wrote: I have a very similar impression that western mass-media do systematically lie, - so you won't persuade me anything by saying this, just make yourself look a bit racist and stupid.
Did you thought about how this, i.e. the western mass-media is systematically lying, can be achieved? If it's systematically there has to be a system in place coordinating the lies they propagate. It's the western mass media it is coordinating, you say, this means they are dealing with many different media's in many different countries each with different laws and different governments and different none-massmedia media. And this system is capabale of staying secret or at least hidden from most of the people and institutions.
Also there is massmedia that is regularly lying and this is well known. It has been shown over and over again. And often this was shown by some of the above mentioned ~institutions. But never ever there has been anything that even comes close to proofing that there is a system in place you are implying; as far as i know. If you know otherwise - meaning, you know of facts that at least make a good point that there might be a system like that in place - please feel free to direct me to your source of knowledge.
On August 07 2023 18:41 Nezgar wrote: Just for the record: So far there has been visual confirmation for 4 destroyed Leopard (2 A4 and 2 A6) and 22 destroyed Bradley. This is far from "every day", though Russian media and sources sure would like you to believe that. This low rate of attrition will continue like this until the Ukrainians are certain that a concerted push will achieve a breakthrough of the Russian defensive lines, at which point they will commit the majority of those formations held in reserve for the moment.
-my claim considered only the part about the infantry losses being not trustworthy. Your implication "this cannot be trusted, because they also say this and that" is quite meaningless, especially given that your numbers on Leo\Bradley in the same post are incorrect; photo\video confirmations on 9+3 Leo 1 and 2 and 35 M2Bradleys can be found in the database here: https://lostarmour.info/armour
Yeah, I am not going to trust the numbers on a hardcore pro-Russia website. When you have been lying this systematically about literally anything, all your credibility as a society and as a nation has completely gone out of the window.
What you are posting there is a Russian propaganda website. So you can kindly take that and shove it up your arse if that makes you happy.
I myself also do not believe vetted visual conformation from multiple angles and sources because it goes against what I believed happened. Why should anyone believe video evidence of something happening when the other side that i support in xyz conflict states 'lol, no it didnt happen!' while a collumn of black smoke rises up behind them. Why would you believe your own eyes? Youre not a Russian are you?
Why are you showing me pictures of blackened and rusted tanks split in half with their turrents blown off 500 meters to the side? That was all recovered and towed back to Poland and probably good as new by now. But did you see that tank the other guys are using? Got scratched by a tree branch, thats a fucking write off mate no way those guys inside survived.
For me to believe the destruction of 200 troops of the side i dislike by my wunderwaffen or any other whacky claim: all i need is a pin dropped on a google map showing where it happened and a video showing the dropped pin with dramatic background music. I dont need visual conformation or any kind of evidence that would in any way, shape or form corroborate the statement. A Reddit post got 5k upvotes for it. What more do you want you shill? Asking for visual conformation is the devil and a sign you are brainwashed by propaganda.
Ill just throw a blanket statement about how im superior to everyone and anyone that is not from my culture is a dirty lier because youve always been liers, not enlightened and 100% truthful like us
Wow Zeo, that's a magnificent strawman you built there. 10/10 would read again. Doesn't even need the Wizard of Oz to give it a heart as it's clearly living in your mind. It is, of course the only place your strawman lives, but don't let that distract you from its magnificence!
Now you know what its like for neutral people to read 90% of what is posted in this thread, I was just mirroring the style. We can all do better to leave the rhetoric behind, clapping and cheering for demagoguery and hypocrisy when the one being a demagogue is 'on our side' helps no one and should give you pause if you have the capacity for critical thought.
The situation is that Russia has been losing artillery, UAVs and AA at a strongly increased rate in 2023. I would guess this is because they've been relying more on those options to stop the counter-offensive. A lot of troops are also being lost, but overall less than during the battle for Bakhmut. Still, Russia lately has been suffering far more casualties than after the first few weeks of the invasion.
On the other hand, Russian losses of planes, helicopters and tanks have seen a strong decline. This could be because Ukrainian capability to destroy them has increased manifold, which forces Russia to keep them in reserve. UAVs and artillery are a much cheaper option.
What this implies is that Russian offensive capability is relatively low. If or when their artillery lose potency, that could be the straw that breaks the camel's back, because then Russia would have little left to threaten Ukraine with, and the ball would stay in Ukraine's corner for the rest of the war.
On August 08 2023 19:31 Magic Powers wrote: The situation is that Russia has been losing artillery, UAVs and AA at a strongly increased rate in 2023. I would guess this is because they've been relying more on those options to stop the counter-offensive. A lot of troops are also being lost, but overall less than during the battle for Bakhmut. Still, Russia lately has been suffering far more casualties than after the first few weeks of the invasion.
On the other hand, Russian losses of planes, helicopters and tanks have seen a strong decline. This could be because Ukrainian capability to destroy them has increased manifold, which forces Russia to keep them in reserve. UAVs and artillery are a much cheaper option.
What this implies is that Russian offensive capability is relatively low. If or when their artillery lose potency, that could be the straw that breaks the camel's back, because then Russia would have little left to threaten Ukraine with, and the ball would stay in Ukraine's corner for the rest of the war.
All data is automatically sourced from @KyivIndependent Twitter daily reports. Their source is from the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
Imaginary numbers go brrrrrrrr. The 'throw a dart at a board with numbers on it - thats Russian losses today, then double it for good measure' numbers the UA MOD comes out with each day have been a comedic highlight ever since all of this started. I didn't think anyone would unironically track them
On August 08 2023 03:06 a_ch wrote: I have a very similar impression that western mass-media do systematically lie, - so you won't persuade me anything by saying this, just make yourself look a bit racist and stupid.
Did you thought about how this, i.e. the western mass-media is systematically lying, can be achieved? If it's systematically there has to be a system in place coordinating the lies they propagate. It's the western mass media it is coordinating, you say, this means they are dealing with many different media's in many different countries each with different laws and different governments and different none-massmedia media. And this system is capabale of staying secret or at least hidden from most of the people and institutions.
Also there is massmedia that is regularly lying and this is well known. It has been shown over and over again. And often this was shown by some of the above mentioned ~institutions. But never ever there has been anything that even comes close to proofing that there is a system in place you are implying; as far as i know. If you know otherwise - meaning, you know of facts that at least make a good point that there might be a system like that in place - please feel free to direct me to your source of knowledge.
-yes, I've been thinking on that a lot. Indeed, there is close to none possibility of directly proving, that there exists a system, coordinating mass-media of this scale, so let me just highlight some of my personal experience and thoughts. I've always been interested in conspiracy theories - it is easy in Russia, since there are a lot of very important contraversial problems (like, for example, what were the reasons for the collapse of the USSR), and also all sorts of dissidents, who are eager to discuss such topics. So excuse me, if some of this sounds like I need a foil hat.
First, what I know the best - is our own system of the similar purpose. I believe its main aim is controlling public opinion and "mood". One part of it includes trolls at most of large social media websites (like, for example, pikabu.ru), who post various pro-government, or sometimes simply positive things. I've also personally encountered with a more direct method of control: a couple times when I wrote in social media something very unpleasant from the "public mood" perspective (like, discuss topics that strongly incriminate our government), I've been immediately doxed. This happened at two different platforms, and two or three times I saw the same scenario happen with different people. I believe the only ones who could have done this, are internal security service agents, - since it always included a wast set of personal data, not unlike a dossier, which is simply not stored in one piece anywhere else.
So, things like that are quite easy to notice when you are a target, but after some time I've also started noticing that the same social media has tons of trolls of the opposite agenda. They are hard to distinguish from the general public that just follow an opinion of some well-known person, but still have some common traits (aimed at emotional response, uneager to constructively discuss, repeating the same topic over and over etc). The easiest to notice are, of course, pro-ukrainian ones, whose main motives are usually related on military topics, and often are based on ill-confirmed information, like the "200 killed in a himars strike" in a recent post here. But the same pattern could be seen in discussions of many other economics and political topics. Before the war one of the most important sources of such info has been Navalny and his organization, and also several popular mass-media, like Meduza, Novaya Gazeta, Echo Moskvy. So, the russian media has been the center of an information war for a long time, and this cannot be explained by anything other than a battle of intelligence services, which I now believe to be the modern type of "hybrid" cold war. The countries, that are not involved in things like that, are most likely already under a strong influence of some other big players, like USA or UK, and are not independent in some aspects of their policies.So my explanation for the coordination between the large mass-media, and their selective choice of topics and agenda is that they are supervised by intelligence agencies of a few countries, that continue (a recently escalated) hybrid war.
My take on how the western media works, would be more related to the fact that less effort bring more views. No big conspiracy, no big coordination, just simple common interest.
A mix of clickbait that even more reputable media use. Also the team writing the web articles are often different people that writing the press and they think differently.
I wonder about the lessons that this war is teaching for future wars between peer adversaries. If we consider the huge manpower reserves of the Koreas that they consider that they need to defend against the huge manpower reserves of each other, perhaps that’s obsolete. Both Russia and Ukraine have struggled to bring manpower to bear on an extremely long front line due to the combo of MANPADS, mines, ATGMs, and air denial.
Just as the Napoleonic Wars became the standard model for nation state militaries before showing cracks in the American Civil War and being utterly discredited in WW1, so WW2 has become the template for what a future conflict might look like, only to be discredited in Ukraine.
In the American Civil War the machine gun and increasingly effective indirect fire showed the limitations of Napoleonic shock columns. We’re now seeing the limitations of armour, air power, and grouped infantry. Even the modern logistical engine is struggling with the threat of long range strikes which cost vastly more to defend against than to attack (you need to defend all points, the attacker may choose to overwhelm any single point).
On August 07 2023 18:41 Nezgar wrote: Just for the record: So far there has been visual confirmation for 4 destroyed Leopard (2 A4 and 2 A6) and 22 destroyed Bradley. This is far from "every day", though Russian media and sources sure would like you to believe that. This low rate of attrition will continue like this until the Ukrainians are certain that a concerted push will achieve a breakthrough of the Russian defensive lines, at which point they will commit the majority of those formations held in reserve for the moment.
-my claim considered only the part about the infantry losses being not trustworthy. Your implication "this cannot be trusted, because they also say this and that" is quite meaningless, especially given that your numbers on Leo\Bradley in the same post are incorrect; photo\video confirmations on 9+3 Leo 1 and 2 and 35 M2Bradleys can be found in the database here: https://lostarmour.info/armour
Yeah, I am not going to trust the numbers on a hardcore pro-Russia website. When you have been lying this systematically about literally anything, all your credibility as a society and as a nation has completely gone out of the window.
What you are posting there is a Russian propaganda website. So you can kindly take that and shove it up your arse if that makes you happy.
I myself also do not believe vetted visual conformation from multiple angles and sources because it goes against what I believed happened. Why should anyone believe video evidence of something happening when the other side that i support in xyz conflict states 'lol, no it didnt happen!' while a collumn of black smoke rises up behind them. Why would you believe your own eyes? Youre not a Russian are you?
Why are you showing me pictures of blackened and rusted tanks split in half with their turrents blown off 500 meters to the side? That was all recovered and towed back to Poland and probably good as new by now. But did you see that tank the other guys are using? Got scratched by a tree branch, thats a fucking write off mate no way those guys inside survived.
For me to believe the destruction of 200 troops of the side i dislike by my wunderwaffen or any other whacky claim: all i need is a pin dropped on a google map showing where it happened and a video showing the dropped pin with dramatic background music. I dont need visual conformation or any kind of evidence that would in any way, shape or form corroborate the statement. A Reddit post got 5k upvotes for it. What more do you want you shill? Asking for visual conformation is the devil and a sign you are brainwashed by propaganda.
Ill just throw a blanket statement about how im superior to everyone and anyone that is not from my culture is a dirty lier because youve always been liers, not enlightened and 100% truthful like us
Wow Zeo, that's a magnificent strawman you built there. 10/10 would read again. Doesn't even need the Wizard of Oz to give it a heart as it's clearly living in your mind. It is, of course the only place your strawman lives, but don't let that distract you from its magnificence!
Now you know what its like for neutral people to read 90% of what is posted in this thread, I was just mirroring the style. We can all do better to leave the rhetoric behind, clapping and cheering for demagoguery and hypocrisy when the one being a demagogue is 'on our side' helps no one and should give you pause if you have the capacity for critical thought.
There’s a huge difference between attempting, as best one can as a human to be neutral and impartial, and engaging relentlessly in the fallacy of moderation, or false equivalencies.
My take on how the western media works, would be more related to the fact that less effort bring more views. No big conspiracy, no big coordination, just simple common interest.
A mix of clickbait that even more reputable media use. Also the team writing the web articles are often different people that writing the press and they think differently.
I've heard it described in this way, and from my observations the description matches. Western media has a form of propaganda in terms of focus, but it is based in reality. So highlight Russian losses, don't highlight or emphasize Ukrainian losses. The numbers are real (or at least as real as they can get them in the fog of war), but they're not going to parade and crow over every Ukrainian loss like a tanky would like. If there is a lie, the lie is in focus/ emphasis of which facts... and probably with an additional emphasis on whatever is clickbaity.
Russian media by contrast is shameless. It will just make stuff up-- outright deny the facts. No, our ship was not hit. All drones were intercepted. Then Ukraine releases footage of the ship's hull intercepting said drones.
No, our bridge was not hit. All missiles were intercepted. Meanwhile, traffic is stopped and no-one is allowed in. Pictures come out that the road intercepted a missile with a big hole in it. Not enough to collapse it. But certainly not 'intercepted'. And then more than once old footage of the same blown up tanks have been reused to bolster the staggering numbers of victories that the Russians are always experiencing, even when giving up vast amounts of territory (last summer)
But this is completely normal. A fella gets poisoned by Russia, then Russia pumps out a dozen ridiculous stories- outright fabrications. When one of them takes root in the wider public, they'll latch on to that fabrication and run with it. Seed the fabrications, then harvest the fabrications that take root. The lies are everywhere and they are deliberate inventions of 'facts', and not a matter of focusing on one over the other.
So, no. I think it is a tremendous mistake to think 'both sides lie' in a false equivalency. There is a qualitative difference, and a very distinct track record and pattern with both medias. But it does show the effectiveness of pumping out an endless stream of fabrications. Just point to the other side and say, you think this is ridiculous? The other side must be generating an equal amount of silly fabrications as well!
Now, I do have a low view of our own media- but it's more related to how bad they are representing an individual's political views if they don't like them. Unless I hear a long form interview where the individual gives a similar position, I cannot ascribe that position to them simply because our media has put them in that box. But that's a far cry from the Russian government method of poisoning a guy and then their media coming out with multiple contradictory stories on how everyone under the sun except the Russian government poisoned him (despite being the only country with motivations to kill him.) The seed multiple (and even contradictory) fabrications and harvest the ones people found plausible is quite unique to Russian propaganda.
So it appears the Ruble, despite being the most manipulated currency on Earth, has not stopped falling. One has to ask who still holds, other than domestic holders as they can't sell, and how long foreign banks will continue to hold said currency.
A week ago 91 Rubles = around $1 dollar. Now it is over 96.... or about 5% drop is as many days.
Russia's currency just plunged to its lowest level against the dollar since the beginning of its war in Ukraine — another sign that the nation's economy is sputtering as the conflict drags on and its economy is burdened with Western sanctions.
The ruble has traded around 96 against the dollar since last Friday. It's the cheapest Russia's currency has been since Putin began his invasion of Ukraine in February last year, which caused the ruble to briefly plummet to 120 against the dollar.
The ruble is one of the worst-performing global currencies of the year, and has declined around 30% from levels in January, when it traded around 65 to the dollar. In July, the currency blew past a key comfort level for the Kremlin, signaling the market's concern for Russia after the Wagner group staged a short-lived coup against President Vladimir Putin.
Economists have been sounding the alarms for Russia's economy for the past year, as the nation has been slammed by sanctions and soaring military spending. Restrictions on oil and natural gas trade led Russia's energy revenue to tumble 45% in first three months of the year. Meanwhile, government spending surged 34%, leading Russia to post a $29 billion budget deficit over the first quarter– a 107% decline from last year's $14 billion budget surplus.
Russian officials have put up a show of defiance amid war and sanctions, and Putin has claimed Russia's economy could actually grow this year with GDP surpassing 2%. But those estimates are largely drawn from "cherry-picked" economic figures, according to Yale researchers, who say that under-the-radar statistics paint a far bleaker picture of Russia's economy.
My take on how the western media works, would be more related to the fact that less effort bring more views. No big conspiracy, no big coordination, just simple common interest.
A mix of clickbait that even more reputable media use. Also the team writing the web articles are often different people that writing the press and they think differently.
I've heard it described in this way, and from my observations the description matches. Western media has a form of propaganda in terms of focus, but it is based in reality. So highlight Russian losses, don't highlight or emphasize Ukrainian losses. The numbers are real (or at least as real as they can get them in the fog of war), but they're not going to parade and crow over every Ukrainian loss like a tanky would like. If there is a lie, the lie is in focus/ emphasis of which facts... and probably with an additional emphasis on whatever is clickbaity.
Russian media by contrast is shameless. It will just make stuff up-- outright deny the facts. No, our ship was not hit. All drones were intercepted. Then Ukraine releases footage of the ship's hull intercepting said drones.
No, our bridge was not hit. All missiles were intercepted. Meanwhile, traffic is stopped and no-one is allowed in. Pictures come out that the road intercepted a missile with a big hole in it. Not enough to collapse it. But certainly not 'intercepted'. And then more than once old footage of the same blown up tanks have been reused to bolster the staggering numbers of victories that the Russians are always experiencing, even when giving up vast amounts of territory (last summer)
But this is completely normal. A fella gets poisoned by Russia, then Russia pumps out a dozen ridiculous stories- outright fabrications. When one of them takes root in the wider public, they'll latch on to that fabrication and run with it. Seed the fabrications, then harvest the fabrications that take root. The lies are everywhere and they are deliberate inventions of 'facts', and not a matter of focusing on one over the other.
So, no. I think it is a tremendous mistake to think 'both sides lie' in a false equivalency. There is a qualitative difference, and a very distinct track record and pattern with both medias. But it does show the effectiveness of pumping out an endless stream of fabrications. Just point to the other side and say, you think this is ridiculous? The other side must be generating an equal amount of silly fabrications as well!
Now, I do have a low view of our own media- but it's more related to how bad they are representing an individual's political views if they don't like them. Unless I hear a long form interview where the individual gives a similar position, I cannot ascribe that position to them simply because our media has put them in that box. But that's a far cry from the Russian government method of poisoning a guy and then their media coming out with multiple contradictory stories on how everyone under the sun except the Russian government poisoned him (despite being the only country with motivations to kill him.) The seed multiple (and even contradictory) fabrications and harvest the ones people found plausible is quite unique to Russian propaganda.
And I think there is another group that are from the west but do not get lumped in with the "western media" because basically they just take whatever the majority is saying and say the opposite or "just question" while highly insinuating there is some conspiracy to hide the truth.
Well, that's often where the seeding can have fertile ground. So it's not always troll farms propagating it, but real people in the west that have an itchy ear for it. That helps give direction to which stories to harvest and amplify later.
EPT
