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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7202 Posts
On June 25 2023 05:54 zeo wrote: All of this, of course, went on with the backdrop of the disastrous failed offensive of the Ukrainian army Its better to not use a crack pipe as your source. | ||
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pmp10
3401 Posts
If they were shooting down this many aircraft then they were taking serious losses in the airstrikes. Chances are they couldn't reach Moscow even remotely capable of fighting. | ||
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DropBear
Australia4442 Posts
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Ardias
Russian Federation618 Posts
On June 25 2023 16:44 DropBear wrote: Are there any updates on what Ukraine is doing in the meantime? It seems the decision to wait and see what happened was a good one because this insurrection seems to have petered out very quickly They actually announced their offensive yesterday. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.unian.net/war/vsu-poshli-vpered-na-vostoke-pervye-detali-malyar-novosti-vtorzheniya-rossii-na-ukrainu-amp-12306135.html They probably thought that rebellion would last longer and draw more resourses from Russian military to shut down. | ||
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r00ty
Germany1101 Posts
Putin will not fully recover from this, he looks so weak. If you protest the war you get thrown into jail. If you occupy Rostov, take over some military bases and march towards the capitol, you get a free vacation in Belarus and a pardon? | ||
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Broetchenholer
Germany1970 Posts
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Godwrath
Spain10168 Posts
On June 25 2023 06:45 zeo wrote: The battle for Bahmut in sheer numbers exceeded anything we've seen since the Korean War. Maybe the Siege of Basra? Aleppo for all brutality had less troops deployed and the Jihadi's never had air support. Again, looking at combined arms Bahmut/Artemovsk will always be near the top What do you think this is, a tournament live report? | ||
zatic
Zurich15366 Posts
This... Deal, whatever you want to call it, feels so unstable. And unstable in that there are so many new uncertainties and variables introduced that's it's unclear where all the instabilities and fault lines are. I don't envy any intelligence service right now. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5914 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
It'll be important to monitor the movement of Wagner troops near Ukraine under Prigozhin's immediate command. | ||
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zeo
Serbia6344 Posts
On June 25 2023 18:02 Godwrath wrote: What do you think this is, a tournament live report? Maybe you should go through some of the hot takes posted here yesterday with your tournament live report comment in mind. From around page 469 onward compiling a list of every fake and lie posted here along with an explanation would take a very long time. Still interesting to read through and see the cope narrative warp in real time though with this much stuffing you can debunk one lie, and there is another 99 people are clinging onto. There's that saying: The longer you deny reality, the harder it will hit you in the face later. And a lot of people here are going to be feeling sore by the time its all over, or they'll just cling onto the next fad that comes along and forget everything about it. On another note I honestly should have been more specific about the Bahmut comment, I was referring to specific battles between peer armies, not military whole campaigns. And that is totally my bad. Still we are only now seeing just how important Bahmut really was and the consequences of the way the government in Kiev defended it. The inability of the Ukrainian army to consolidate even minor strategic gains with the resources put forth in June is very telling of where this conflict is going. We went from Crimea in three days to maybe Crimea in there months, to we will just stop talking about it all together, shifting goalposts doesn't win wars. Unless the UAF really goes collapse in on itself with losses during the offensive Russia does not have the manpower at the front without another wave of mobilization to end the conflict. For a political settlement, with Zelensky ruling out any kind of elections we might have to wait until the US presidential one to see which way the wind will blow. Thats still a long way away though and all it takes is a crazy day like yesterday to throw everything upside down. I mean, Wagner was 200km away from Moscow yesterday, today they are in Belarus 150km away from Kiev . | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On June 25 2023 19:48 zeo wrote: Maybe you should go through some of the hot takes posted here yesterday with your tournament live report comment in mind. From around page 469 onward compiling a list of every fake and lie posted here along with an explanation would take a very long time. May I ask for you to single out just one lie that stuck out to you? Just one shouldn't be too much to ask. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5914 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14220 Posts
I don't know who told you the plan was a kyiv in three days three months don't talk about it anymore, oh wait I mean crimea but anyone who told you that was dumb. The only one shifting goalposts is Russians milblogers who don't understand whats going on. Ukraine has already taken far more than bakhmut. The idea that somehow kyiv is more vulnerable now than it was at the start of the war just shows a level of delusion. if the entire russian army was somehow able to teleport to belerus right now and attack kyiv I don't think it would have a chance at taking kyiv. | ||
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a_ch
Russian Federation240 Posts
On June 25 2023 22:13 Sermokala wrote: Bakhmut is only exceptional post ww2 because of how long it took to clear the city. It didn't even end the battle as Ukraine has just swept right back into the city and is making gains again. The Kharkiv offensive was still more decisive and important on the war as a whole Ukraine just managed to do it in a lot less time. If you're talking peer to peer battles you are ignoreing all the asian wars like the post ww2 chinese civil war battles and again iran-iraq. Its not an impressive combined arms battle when you're just grinding through urban combat I don't know who told you the plan was a kyiv in three days three months don't talk about it anymore, oh wait I mean crimea but anyone who told you that was dumb. The only one shifting goalposts is Russians milblogers who don't understand whats going on. Ukraine has already taken far more than bakhmut. The idea that somehow kyiv is more vulnerable now than it was at the start of the war just shows a level of delusion. if the entire russian army was somehow able to teleport to belerus right now and attack kyiv I don't think it would have a chance at taking kyiv. I agree with you that Petraeus is a bit dimwit. https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/jun/03/russia-ukraine-war-live-russian-army-may-struggle-in-bakhmut-compared-with-wagner-uk-mod-suggests?page=with:block-647afd7a8f08b007454b97f0#block-647afd7a8f08b007454b97f0 | ||
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Sermokala
United States14220 Posts
On June 25 2023 22:20 a_ch wrote: I agree with you that Petraeus is a bit dimwit. https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/jun/03/russia-ukraine-war-live-russian-army-may-struggle-in-bakhmut-compared-with-wagner-uk-mod-suggests?page=with:block-647afd7a8f08b007454b97f0#block-647afd7a8f08b007454b97f0 What do you think that interview says? | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16129 Posts
On June 25 2023 16:06 pmp10 wrote: https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1672709307073196034 If they were shooting down this many aircraft then they were taking serious losses in the airstrikes. Chances are they couldn't reach Moscow even remotely capable of fighting. So much for the narrative that the whole thing was just a big ruse. If Russia wanted to do some 4D false flag move to somehow embarass NATO (or whatever this dumb conspiracy theory that's floating around on twitter) then why would they intentionally allow Wagner to kill 15 airmen and destroy multiple expensive pieces of airpower? Must have been pretty committed to the illusion right? This deal still has me confused. It doesn't make a lot of sense from either side. If Putin is seriously going to just let Pirghozin walk free and keep his money/influence abroad then doesn't that make him look exceptionally weak? The dude panicked and flew out of Moscow when the convoy was on its way, then caved and paid the guy off after making a big public address about he was a traitor and all of Wagner were traitors on Russian TV. Even if he kills him off now and does the usual thing of trying to have plausible deniabilty for it, doesn't that still make him look like he caved in to something he insists was a minor situation he had under control. And from Pirghozin's point of view, he can't seriously trust that Putin will actually leave him alone now can he? Maybe he felt like he liked his chances better dodging Putin's assassins and Russian Mafia hits than dying in combat in Moscow because he didn't have enough support from the Russian Military. But if his march on Moscow was that easily called off, why even make the push in the first place if he wasn't committed to it? Whole thing is so strange. I just hope Ukraine took advantage of it the day of confusion as best that they could. | ||
KwarK
United States44450 Posts
On June 25 2023 22:20 a_ch wrote: I agree with you that Petraeus is a bit dimwit. https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/jun/03/russia-ukraine-war-live-russian-army-may-struggle-in-bakhmut-compared-with-wagner-uk-mod-suggests?page=with:block-647afd7a8f08b007454b97f0#block-647afd7a8f08b007454b97f0 I don’t think that says what you think it says. He’s describing rotating 72-96 hour phases of pushing, entrenching, consolidating to move through a minefield. He’s not saying that the war would be won in 72 hours. | ||
[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
As much as we’d want it to be true, they are not stupid. If this situation doesn’t make sense, and the deal doesn’t make sense, it’s because we’re missing a lot of information. They wouldn’t have made a deal so fast if it didn’t make sense for both parties. Just keep that in mind. | ||
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