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On June 24 2023 23:24 [Phantom] wrote: This doesn’t make any sense. I know many here want Russia to lose (so do I) but this is super suspect.
1.- Wegner was in Ukraine helping Russia. He constantly talked shit about Russia but his words are one thing and actions another and his actions were pro Russia in every step.
2.-Wegner said Russia attacked them for some reason and both nato and Russia said that didn’t appear to be the case and that the attack seemed to be staged.
3.- now supposedly they are already in Russia and marching towards Moscú? How did they get there so fast? And to get to Russia they need to pass through all of the Donbas and all the Russian military, minefield etc that are in that region. -
Also the Wedgner group doesn’t have a big military. They were almost wiped out at the start of the war and had to also recruit criminals. Russian army is much bigger. It would be suicide.
There’s something extremely weird in all this. It literally doesn’t make any sense.
Where is Zeo when you need it? I would like to know what biased pro Russians news are saying about this
A false flag/fake doesn't make sense to me. Putin could not look any weaker then this if he tried. A rogue russian PMC is rapidly advancing on Moscow and is apparently hours away from the city.
And this isn't going to trick Ukraine either. Military command doesn't base strategy off of tiktok videos. They have actual intelligence including both US and EU agencies.
Hour away from the city without any resistance.
Like I said the guy was in unkraine in the front lines. How does he get there so fast because it’s not only him, it’s his army. And infantry, tanks etc takes a lot of time to move. And you can clearly see it and prepare for it…
And yet he faces no resistance? People in this thread are cheering because they think it’s because even Russian soldiers support it. Is that really it? You’d think at least some people would support Putin and not some traitors. The fact that there hasn’t been resistance makes this all the more suspicious for me.
Maybe it’s just an excuse to end the war. They were saying a couple of weeks ago they got their objective of liberating Ukraine from Nazis. I don’t know but try to look at this objectively and not from a “I really want russia to lose” perspective and it’s super weird.
And again for what is worth I Do want Russia to lose
Wagner pulled out after the proclaimed victory in Bakhmut. We had reports of the Russian army taking their place, and Ukraine regaining some ground around the city as a result of that hand-over.
So Wagner hasn't been on the front lines in Ukraine for about a month now.
There was one guy that mention Games of thrones early on and holy shit. Is unreal to me that they can go to Moscow like that without any troubles. Where are the jet fighters? I guess american movies and all that propaganda about russian army wasnt real afterall? No doubt they didnt take Ukraine.
On June 25 2023 00:00 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: There was one guy that mention Games of thrones early on and holy shit. Is unreal to me that they can go to Moscow like that without any troubles. Where are the jet fighters? I guess american movies and all that propaganda about russian army wasnt real afterall? No doubt they didnt take Ukraine.
Supposedly Wagner took out several helicopters and a transport plane. No idea idea about fighters/bombers.
I assume the MoD got blindsided, and with the war going on, the forces to defend Moscow were possibly thinned out. It might be a bit like the US before 9/11. They had pretty much no defense in the northeast because there was no threat before. Now I picture generals yelling frantically over the phone, trying to mount a defense as the elites suddenly start to panic.
The speed with which they are moving seems immense. Even suspicious. It's 600km from Voronozeh to Moscow. BWP/IFV aren't that fast (~65km/h). They also burn fuel like hell and would need to be refueled along the way at least once. Perhaps twice. Have they ditched heavy equipment and use only trucks, MRAPS and the like?
And nobody is trying to stop them... (it would be enough to blow a bridge, to delay them significantly..)... I guess everyone is just sitting on the sidelines and are watching who comes on the top?
I view the lack of resistance to Prigozhin as a combination of factors.
1) The Russian military in Russia are not the best trained or seasoned troops. 2) Prigozhin is said to be quite liked by the low level grunts in the Russian military. 3) Prigozhin built up support from figures in the Russian military and government. People have noticed the lack of immediate rallying to Putin as a sign the elites are staying neutral or perhaps quietly backing Prigozhin. 4) Bombing your own people is not something you want to do, even for someone like Putin. 5) The Russian people are largely apathetic to this and just want to stay alive in this power struggle. Revolutions and coups have succeeded with fewer people than what Wagner has right now. You just need the populace to be indifferent to it.
Well… we’ll see what happens. I think it is still suspicious but we’ll see.
According to google maps… moscu is 1255 km away from Rostov or 15 hours. But that’s going fast in a highway and tanks and walking people don’t move that fast. So maybe some forces can move in trucks and get there later today or tomorrow but most of the army won’t be there until at least 2 days
Edit According to another poster above they are now in a closet city called Voronezhe, but still
On June 24 2023 22:32 Zaros wrote: Nothing like Caesar really, Caesar was previously consul and was a key part of running the state under the Triumvirate and popular with the masses, I don't think either of these apply.
Caesar had a decent amount of support in the senate even if the majority/elite were against him. Caesar had a fixed governorship term length, he was under legal threat as soon as that ended. I see no evidence Prigozhin was under any threat until he already started down this path.
Caesar was also one of the greatest military commanders in history which I think its safe to say does no apply to Prigozhin who couldn't even capture one city.
Wagner did take Bakhmut.
Also if Prig wins his reputation as one of the greatest military commander/restauranteurs will be solid.
I know they claimed they captured it and then cleared out but I don't believe Ukraine ever fully left the city and considering they are fighting in and around it again so quickly I think that supports the fact they didn't leave. So while the Russians controlled most of the city I wouldn't say they took it, its an ongoing battle.
Re the Coup making him a great military commander, I think that depends if he is relying on actual battles or if this is more a political plan that with the threat of force enables him to take over. If it is more political then I don't think that deserves enough military credit to make him one of the greatest.
Everyone, including the Ukrainian military, agree Bakhmut was taken. Street by street the Ukrainians retreated until eventually there were no streets remaining. This isn’t denied by anyone except you. You’re just out of the loop on this, Bakhmut was definitely taken.
Not only this, but Russian State media has building up the Ukrainian army as though Russia was taking on all of NATO. And guess who was the one unit that could stand toe to to with Ukraine? Wagner. Was it a bloody meat grinder to do so? Yes. But Wagner took the city where no one else did. So the fearsome reputation of the Ukraine-is-NATO transfers to Wagner to some extent. And then someone said Caesar was good at PR as something that was dissimilar to Prigozhin.
But I think the Wagner commander has been relatively good at PR too- probably better than the State media. All those 'tell it like it is' media releases? If soldiers see it, it's got to be somewhat convincing that he knows what is going on better than State media. His videos showing himself to be a get your hands dirty commander. I think it's pretty solid stuff. Is it sufficient? That remains to be seen and so we wait.
On June 25 2023 00:10 [Phantom] wrote: Well… we’ll see what happens. I think it is still suspicious but we’ll see.
According to google maps… moscu is 1255 km away from Rostov or 15 hours. But that’s going fast in a highway and tanks and walking people don’t move that fast. So maybe some forces can move in trucks and get there later today or tomorrow but most of the army won’t be there until at least 2 days
Edit According to another poster above they are now in a closet city called Voronezhe, but still
It's possible that they weren't stationed all in the same place. It's not Prigozhin who is heading to Moscow, afaik, but his troops.
On June 25 2023 00:10 [Phantom] wrote: Well… we’ll see what happens. I think it is still suspicious but we’ll see.
According to google maps… moscu is 1255 km away from Rostov or 15 hours. But that’s going fast in a highway and tanks and walking people don’t move that fast. So maybe some forces can move in trucks and get there later today or tomorrow but most of the army won’t be there until at least 2 days
Edit According to another poster above they are now in a closet city called Voronezhe, but still
The march started something like 18 hours ago and they're all in trucks and amored vehicles, no one's storming Moscow 1000+ km by foot.
Just saw an interview with US General Hodges where says that he thinks this is the beginning of the end of the war and that we'll see Russian troops go home within weeks.
I don't see it at all myself, but i'm not a general.
On June 25 2023 00:23 Jockmcplop wrote: Just saw an interview with US General Hodges where says that he thinks this is the beginning of the end of the war and that we'll see Russian troops go home within weeks.
I don't see it at all myself, but i'm not a general.
That feels extremely premature. Even if Prig wins there is no telling how he will continue. This would be a perfect excuse to pull back but I am not counting on Russia taking it based on their stubborn refusal so far.
Crimea will be a sticking point for sure. If Prigozhin wins then he could restore 2022 borders and blame Putin but giving up Crimea would be tough to justify to Russians unless it was already lost.
On June 25 2023 00:23 Jockmcplop wrote: Just saw an interview with US General Hodges where says that he thinks this is the beginning of the end of the war and that we'll see Russian troops go home within weeks.
I don't see it at all myself, but i'm not a general.
That feels extremely premature. Even if Prig wins there is no telling how he will continue. This would be a perfect excuse to pull back but I am not counting on Russia taking it based on their stubborn refusal so far.
Yeah I agree... The most likely outcomes imo seem to all be in favour of the war continuing.
Of course the war will continue but what is unknown is how far this will weaken Russian forces in Ukraine. And how Ukraine can take advantage of that. I mean as there been any evidence or news of Russian forces are even aware of what is going on right now?
On June 25 2023 00:10 [Phantom] wrote: Well… we’ll see what happens. I think it is still suspicious but we’ll see.
According to google maps… moscu is 1255 km away from Rostov or 15 hours. But that’s going fast in a highway and tanks and walking people don’t move that fast. So maybe some forces can move in trucks and get there later today or tomorrow but most of the army won’t be there until at least 2 days
Edit According to another poster above they are now in a closet city called Voronezhe, but still
I'd also like to mention that i don't think people here are pro-Prigozhin.
Most people here are pro-Ukraine. We just view this from the perspective that shit happening in Russia has a good chance to make them no longer want to be in a war, or that it makes conducting said war harder.
Prigozhin is a murderous criminal. Putin is also a murderous criminal. Them fighting is good.
I truly hope that Russia somehow manages to pull out of this as a prosperous real democracy which respects the human rights of its citizens and the borders of its neighbours. I just view this as unlikely. So for now, anything that leads to them keeping their shit in their country is also good. Weird rebellion/coup stuff happening in the enemy nation is usually a good thing.
EPT
