Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 401
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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28714 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
Or consider the Baltic states basically stripping their own military all but naked for the duration of the war just because they're eager to send everything they have to Ukraine. Also, from which nation did we receive brutal images of saboteurs setting recruitment stations on fire and shooting recruitment officers? Russia. Not Ukraine. Many Russians themselves agree that this war is unjust. I've yet to hear from a single Ukrainian disagreeing. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18131 Posts
On March 11 2023 19:27 Magic Powers wrote: For additional good guy status, imagine being hugely dependent on the invading nation and deciding to cut ties with them as much as possible within the span of just one year - not because you have to, but mostly because you want to signal full support to the defending nation. It's not like Putin himself would've decided to cut ties with the EU at any point now or later, he was also hugely profiting off of this relationship. Although the job isn't quite done yet, a lot of progress has been made and more will be done. Or consider the Baltic states basically stripping their own military all but naked for the duration of the war just because they're eager to send everything they have to Ukraine. Also, from which nation did we receive brutal images of saboteurs setting recruitment stations on fire and shooting recruitment officers? Russia. Not Ukraine. Many Russians themselves agree that this war is unjust. I've yet to hear from a single Ukrainian disagreeing. You should probably watch some Russian propaganda then, because they exist. You might no-true-Scotsman that, but there are Ukrainians who support the Russian invasion of their country. I don't really know why you're making this argument tho. There's people who think the earth is flat. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On March 11 2023 21:54 Acrofales wrote: You should probably watch some Russian propaganda then, because they exist. You might no-true-Scotsman that, but there are Ukrainians who support the Russian invasion of their country. I don't really know why you're making this argument tho. There's people who think the earth is flat. My point isn't that there are no pro-war Ukrainians, but that they're a tiny minority compared to the anti-war Russians. | ||
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Falling
Canada11375 Posts
Because I think that's what is more or less meant. I don't know how many people in this thread hold to an absolutist moral framework, and certainly no-one is arguing that Russians are intrinsically evil. This whole chain began when people were reacting to the human cost to the Ukrainians who fled- that teens were growing up with the intention of returning to fight in a war rather than dreaming of their future career, family etc. This was called evil. Malango says it's more complex. And while denying there 'may' not be a global conspiracy that western enterprises benefit from the war. And further, he does not support either side (hence, my characterization of aggressive neutrality.) How does this add complexity? Did western enterprises create the conditions that justified the war? Did western enterprises start the war? Are western enterprises encouraging the Russians to continue the war in some way? Are western enterprises intentionally or unintentionally prolonging the war? (Besides just allowing Ukraine to be over-run. In which case, I suppose the morally simple thing to do is to cut off supplies and just let Russia win= no more war.) Are western enterprises funding the Russian invasion? How does the involvement of western enterprises make an unprovoked invasion by the Russians 'more complex'? Is it because they also make money? In which case, if they gave weapons away for free, does that simplify the morality of the war? If it does, then the issue has really nothing to do with the war and its complexities and everything to do with an a priori belief about profits. Or is it not the money but of all the western enterprises, the US is involved- if it was just Europe supplying Ukraine, does that simplify the morality? Or did Ukraine have to stand against Russia all on its own to remove the grey morality of the war? How does the involvement of western enterprises to help Ukraine defend its own country add a layer of grey morality? | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17450 Posts
![]() This is supposedly a picture of a field near Bakhmut after another failed Russian attack. Red checkmarks show where the bodies are... | ||
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Agh
United States1013 Posts
On March 11 2023 22:55 Magic Powers wrote: My point isn't that there are no pro-war Ukrainians, but that they're a tiny minority compared to the anti-war Russians. Hard to be pro-war when the the country was just being used as a stepping stone in the instigation. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18131 Posts
On March 11 2023 22:55 Magic Powers wrote: My point isn't that there are no pro-war Ukrainians, but that they're a tiny minority compared to the anti-war Russians. Won't you be able to say that pretty much any time a country invades another and turns it into a battleground? Regardless of whether that war is justifiable? Most people would rather not live in a battleground... The number of people for or against something doesn't really figure into the morality of the thing. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On March 13 2023 00:08 Acrofales wrote: Won't you be able to say that pretty much any time a country invades another and turns it into a battleground? Regardless of whether that war is justifiable? Most people would rather not live in a battleground... The number of people for or against something doesn't really figure into the morality of the thing. I agree with you, but a lot of people do believe that the majority does decide over what's good and right. A lot of people also hold the belief that the majority is more often right than not. Despite my strong disagreement with such ideas, I think it'd be foolish to outright dismiss them, because - whether we like it or not - these beliefs are driving forces in society. | ||
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sertas
Sweden889 Posts
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ZeroByte13
778 Posts
You probably know few people in Russia personally, if any (please correct me if I'm wrong), I know hundreeds of people personally and know the overall "mood" over there. The vast majority of them do NOT think like you've described here. Of course, I might be not very representative here, most of my friends and colleagues are good people and also they're pretty smart. But still, I'm 100% sure even in general only a small percentage think the war is awesome. A bigger percentage think it's shit but "probably those guys above know better" - as they want to believe all this shit is at least somewhat justified. A lot of people understand it will end up in really bad consequences and they are super unhappy about the war. Don't get me wrong - in absolute numbers a LOT of people support the war. Russia has population of 145 millions or so, so even 10% is 15 millions. But not majority. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8193 Posts
On March 13 2023 05:36 ZeroByte13 wrote: The majority of russians does NOT think the war is awesome and they're gonna win. You probably know few people in Russia personally, if any (please correct me if I'm wrong), I know hundreeds of people personally and know the overall "mood" over there. The vast majority of them do NOT think like you've described here. Of course, I might be not very representative here, most of my friends and colleagues are good people and also they're pretty smart. But still, I'm 100% sure even in general only a small percentage think the war is awesome. A bigger percentage think it's shit but "probably those guys above know better" - as they want to believe all this shit is at least somewhat justified. A lot of people understand it will end up in really bad consequences and they are super unhappy about the war. Don't get me wrong - in absolute numbers a LOT of people support the war. Russia has population of 145 millions or so, so even 10% is 15 millions. But not majority. I'll be honest, with the casualty numbers we're seeing from the Russian side, I'm extremely surprised we haven't seen more protests yet. Sure, protesting is dangerous, but when you lose enough friends and loved ones, that starts mattering a lot less. If the war was somewhat justified, you could kind of see it as the cost of protecting your country, but if what you're saying is true, then people there knows it isn't so. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
Russia’s tank shortage is worse than some observers previously thought. The Kremlin’s stocks of its most numerous tank, the Cold War-vintage T-72, are running out fast. The worsening T-72 shortfall helps to explain why the Russians increasingly are equipping their newly-mobilized battalions with obsolete T-62 and T-80B tanks. When it comes to assessing the Russian tank arsenal, one of the best independent sources is a Twitter user with the handle @partizan_oleg. Drawing on unclassified data from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute and other sources, including the Oryx blog’s painstaking count of visually-confirmed vehicle losses in the current phase of the Russia-Ukraine war, @partizan_oleg estimates how many tanks the Russians have left after more than a year of hard fighting. Their assessment of T-72 stocks has changed—for the worse. In a mid-February count, @partizan_oleg assumed Russia went to war with nearly 2,000 of the 50-ton, three-person T-72s with their 125-millimeter smoothbore main guns. In the first 12 months of fighting, the Ukrainians destroyed or captured nearly 1,200 T-72s or likely T-72s that Oryx could confirm. Since there undoubtedly have been tank losses that didn’t leave video or photographic evidence, the Oryx count is an undercount. If Oryx confirmed 80 percent of losses, then the Russians actually have written off 1,500 T-72s. But per @partizan_oleg’s earlier count, the Russians had 6,900 old T-72s in storage, around a third of which might’ve been recoverable after decades of corrosive exposure to rain, snow and cycles of hot and cold. The problem, for the Kremlin, is that @partizan_oleg’s February count was off. Double-checking their numbers on Tuesday, @partizan_oleg realized that, in fact, the Russians probably only have 1,500, not 6,900, old T-72s in storage. “And many of them are probably not in good shape,” they pointed out. The recount was pretty straightforward. @partizan_oleg started with the number of T-72 hulls that Soviet industry produced in a 23-year production run between 1968 and 1991—18,000—and started subtracting tanks the Soviets and Russians either lost in combat or exported to foreign customers. That’s how they arrived at the much lower number of war-reserve T-72s. The big variable, @partizan_oleg acknowledged, is that their production data might not include the very first T-72 model, the crude T-72 “Ural.” It’s unclear how many Urals the Uralvagonzavod factory in Sverdlovsk Oblast may have produced then stored. Perhaps hundreds. Perhaps a couple thousand. But even after adding some very old Urals to @partizan_oleg’s T-72 survey, a stark conclusion is unavoidable. The Russians have lost potentially two-thirds of the T-72s that are in active service or in recoverable storage. So it makes a lot more sense why the Kremlin is pulling out of storage T-62 tanks that are even older than any T-72, as well as T-80Bs that are roughly contemporaneous with early T-72s. Russian industry can produce just a handful of new tanks every month—far too few to make good monthly losses in the triple digits. All that is to say, the Russians are running out of tanks. And quickly. Source | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15725 Posts
On March 13 2023 20:49 Excludos wrote: I'll be honest, with the casualty numbers we're seeing from the Russian side, I'm extremely surprised we haven't seen more protests yet. Sure, protesting is dangerous, but when you lose enough friends and loved ones, that starts mattering a lot less. If the war was somewhat justified, you could kind of see it as the cost of protecting your country, but if what you're saying is true, then people there knows it isn't so. I think recent data has suggested the war is becoming more normalized and accepted in Russia. But I don't remember where I read that so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. | ||
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ZeroByte13
778 Posts
I doubt more people start supporting it, I'd guess it's another way around. After a year without much success, you'd think quite a few former supporters should have been disillusioned about whatever good things this conflict might bring by their opinion. Then again, it's just my personal feeling | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
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Ardias
Russian Federation614 Posts
On March 12 2023 09:13 Manit0u wrote: ![]() This is supposedly a picture of a field near Bakhmut after another failed Russian attack. Red checkmarks show where the bodies are... These "bodies" seem to be present month and a half ago in the territory quite deep in Ukrainian rear at time. So in short, it's a fake from Ukrainian tg channel "Whacked Ruskies" - https://t.me/rysnya200 | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17450 Posts
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Slydie
1927 Posts
On March 14 2023 07:12 Manit0u wrote: That's why I wrote "supposedly" in there. Can't really trust most of the stuff like that from either side unfortunately. Bad news confirmed by the side at a disadvantage usually seem pretty solid to me, just toned down. Everything else:🧂🧂🧂 | ||
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Neneu
Norway492 Posts
I find it hard to believe that it's just rocks. | ||
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![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/nQBdhGR.jpg)