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Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 156

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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17782 Posts
July 04 2022 20:01 GMT
#3101
Another thing to note is that while they did lose Lysychansk they inflicted heavy casualties on the Russians and destroyed 7 of their ammo depots. This will stymie Russian progress I assume.

Kremlin also introduces new laws to effectively allow them to take over businesses and enforce labor during special operations just like during war time. I guess they are running into supply issues.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
July 04 2022 21:49 GMT
#3102
Don't know why you are all acting so suprised that Russia is capable of taking a city that has been slowly encircled for weeks, when I did say they are learning lessons and their army is coordinating over a month ago. Can't remember where I got this from, but it was reported that Russia is throwing about 50 thousand artillery shells a day. This sounds like a lot, and it is if if you are in the target area, but for point of comparison WW1 could see a million shells on certain days. There is no chance Russia will run into supply issues as long as Ukraine cannot strike deep into Russian supply points and Russia keeps its slow rate of advance.
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4478 Posts
July 04 2022 23:45 GMT
#3103
On July 05 2022 06:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Don't know why you are all acting so suprised that Russia is capable of taking a city that has been slowly encircled for weeks, when I did say they are learning lessons and their army is coordinating over a month ago. Can't remember where I got this from, but it was reported that Russia is throwing about 50 thousand artillery shells a day. This sounds like a lot, and it is if if you are in the target area, but for point of comparison WW1 could see a million shells on certain days. There is no chance Russia will run into supply issues as long as Ukraine cannot strike deep into Russian supply points and Russia keeps its slow rate of advance.


Russia hasn't learned much of a lesson then, as they've only claimed as much ground as they've surrendered, and in the process they've depleted a lot of their arsenal. Russia is already facing supply issues, and has been for weeks at least.

For us to misunderstand the situation would mean that Russia has been significantly holding back so far, which is certainly not the case, with the exception of the nuclear option. They're factually incapable of meaningfully striking deeper into Ukraine. They've directed their fire onto certain regions more than others, resulting in a success like encircling Severodonetsk and Lysychansk and that whole region, while at the same time relinguishing control over numerous other regions that nobody has spoken about in recent weeks, but it's been happening continuously.

My assumption would be that Russia, in order to have that one success, ordered a reduction of manpower in those other regions. So as has been said a few times, claiming territory is one thing, but holding it is another, and I guess that's especially true during an offensive war. Hence why I'd consider this phase the special stalling operations.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4478 Posts
July 05 2022 06:21 GMT
#3104
This Russian Youtuber going by Niki Proshin shows how interviews are being done by 1420, a channel that's giving insight into Russian people's views. At 2:44 it's mentioned that <10% of people want to answer questions about the war. I strictly do not believe that Russian support for the war is overall favorable, contrary to "surveys" saying otherwise, which I believe are pure propaganda.

If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11912 Posts
July 05 2022 07:56 GMT
#3105
On July 05 2022 15:21 Magic Powers wrote:
This Russian Youtuber going by Niki Proshin shows how interviews are being done by 1420, a channel that's giving insight into Russian people's views. At 2:44 it's mentioned that <10% of people want to answer questions about the war. I strictly do not believe that Russian support for the war is overall favorable, contrary to "surveys" saying otherwise, which I believe are pure propaganda.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjH3Ub89CDQ


Sounds reasonable. I wouldn't talk about the war either if i were in Russia. Saying the wrong thing on camera can lead to very critical medical problems, like falling out of windows.
Ardias
Profile Joined January 2014
Russian Federation618 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-07-05 09:35:32
July 05 2022 08:44 GMT
#3106
On July 05 2022 15:21 Magic Powers wrote:
This Russian Youtuber going by Niki Proshin shows how interviews are being done by 1420, a channel that's giving insight into Russian people's views. At 2:44 it's mentioned that <10% of people want to answer questions about the war. I strictly do not believe that Russian support for the war is overall favorable, contrary to "surveys" saying otherwise, which I believe are pure propaganda.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjH3Ub89CDQ

Well, bear in mind that 1420 is working in Moscow, and, together with St. Petersburg, these are the most liberal and western-oriented places in Russia. Interviews in Salehard, Chita, Volgograd or Mahachkala could provide quite different outcome.
Here (Arkhangelsk) in my surroundings view on the war is mostly neutral. By "neutral" I mean that that most people don't want to neither actively support or join the war, nor protest or fight against it. A lot of those still have some kind of opinion on the matter (either "starting the war is bad" or "Ukraine had it coming" mostly, with somewhat even percentage of both), though there are many, who just don't think much about it, since it doesn't heavily impact their everyday life, at least for now ("prices went up again" is nothing new for Russia, especially for those who lived through 90's, and there isn't any shortages of common goods in stores, for now at least).
Mess with the best or die like the rest.
0x64
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Finland4628 Posts
July 05 2022 08:47 GMT
#3107
This video has me really in a rollercoaster of emotions. In some level, it feels so unfair that people are living normal lives in Moscow. Yet they have survived for generations by shutting the fuk up. And then you see these young guys doing something incredibly brave, at the limit of what it ok. Not hiding, funny hair etc.

We tell kids to standup to bullying while we let Putin bully his neighbours.
Dump of assembler code from 0xffffffec to 0x64: End of assembler dump.
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
July 05 2022 09:39 GMT
#3108
If going to war were unpopular, Putin wouldn't be doing it like clockwork. In fact, it seems to be a sure-fire way to stabilize his dictatorship. It distracts the masses from the problems at home, it allows for more draconian measures for cracking down on the opposition, etc. Unfortunately, unless RU and its people change, the regimes will keep fighting wars every few years for domestic reasons.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4478 Posts
July 05 2022 10:30 GMT
#3109
On July 05 2022 18:39 Ghanburighan wrote:
If going to war were unpopular, Putin wouldn't be doing it like clockwork. In fact, it seems to be a sure-fire way to stabilize his dictatorship. It distracts the masses from the problems at home, it allows for more draconian measures for cracking down on the opposition, etc. Unfortunately, unless RU and its people change, the regimes will keep fighting wars every few years for domestic reasons.


That's a highly fallacious argument that I'm completely convinced doesn't match with reality. Is this idea born out of hatred for the Russian people, who I think by and large just want to live and let live?
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
July 05 2022 11:20 GMT
#3110
On July 05 2022 19:30 Magic Powers wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2022 18:39 Ghanburighan wrote:
If going to war were unpopular, Putin wouldn't be doing it like clockwork. In fact, it seems to be a sure-fire way to stabilize his dictatorship. It distracts the masses from the problems at home, it allows for more draconian measures for cracking down on the opposition, etc. Unfortunately, unless RU and its people change, the regimes will keep fighting wars every few years for domestic reasons.


That's a highly fallacious argument that I'm completely convinced doesn't match with reality. Is this idea born out of hatred for the Russian people, who I think by and large just want to live and let live?


What hatred? That's a direct insult based on your own prejudices.

If you assume that Russian people want to "live and let live", it doesn't make sense to continue to think about the popularity of wars in Russia because you have the answer. It's empirically wrong, but you have your answer.

You might not like it, but people "rally around the flag" during a war. This isn't a "Russian" thing. It's a "human" thing. People might not like the idea of starting a war, but once they're in one, they'll support whoever is in charge. Happened to Bush in 2001, and many others throughout history.

What makes this especially unfortunate is that Russian regimes are well placed to start these wars: they have no checks and balances, they are a nuclear power so they cannot be stopped using conventional arms, they are surrounded by smaller and weaker states, etc.

Now add what I said about oppression and propaganda, they have probably the world's second most effective totalitarian machinery, well-practiced and modern. A single individual or even a powerful group has little chance at getting their ideas heard. So, propaganda will manage to do its work. Ardias here said that most people around him are neutral. There is no strong anti-war movement that survived the oppression of February and March. And all of Putin's worries from before February have been successfully swept under the rug until the fighting stops.

So, as long as these factors remain the same, Russian regimes will continue to wage wars for personal gain, making everyone suffer directly or through indirect means such as economic hardships. This can change through external factors, or by Russian people forcefully rejecting being treated this way. I don't see either happening any time soon.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4478 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-07-05 12:50:27
July 05 2022 11:45 GMT
#3111
I recommend you watch some of the videos by 1420, it shows that Russians are not anywhere near as much in favor of this war as the Russian propaganda is trying to make us believe.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
SSIII
Profile Joined June 2022
China60 Posts
July 05 2022 12:46 GMT
#3112
Russian Army's enquipments are not digitized, too old even compared to PLA, they gave really poor performances in Sino-Russian Joint Military Exercises in 2018&2021, so it is not a suprise that they made tardy progresses in Ukraine.
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
July 05 2022 14:43 GMT
#3113
Edward Lucas, one of the people who continued to research Russia's imperialism after the Soviet Union fell, wrote a thought-provoking article on the similarities and differences between the old and new Cold War. Notice that his suggested reapplication of the policy of "containment" has unfortunate implications on Ukraine... unless they free themselves from Russian troops, they'll be considered to be on the wrong side of the demarcation line, or, at best, in the no-man-zone.

(spoilered due to length)
+ Show Spoiler +


The West Needs a Cure for Cold War Fever

The less you know about the old Cold War, the more you’ll be tempted to feel nostalgia—or shivers down your spine. One narrative glorifies the decadeslong conflict as a time of crystalline moral clarity—a Manichean struggle between good and evil, pursued with exemplary collective purpose and discipline. It ended in triumph with the collapse of communism: the disintegration first of the Soviet empire in Eastern Europe and then of the Soviet Union itself. Never mind that the East-West struggle played out very differently for many countries in Latin America, Africa, and Asia, where it was an era of proxy wars fueled by ruthless superpower competition.

Another all-too-simple narrative sees the Cold War as a barely avoided apocalypse. The terrifying era of nuclear brinkmanship was marked by near-disasters including the 1962 Cuban missile crisis and the 1983 Able Archer incident, where the Kremlin misinterpreted a NATO exercise of that name as preparations for a surprise attack. If the Cold War ended peacefully, this narrative goes, it was only by the skin of our teeth. Had we been just a tad less lucky, I wouldn’t be here to write this article, nor would you be here to read it.

So, when people describe the current conflict between the rich democracies and the Sino-Russian authoritarian axis as a new cold war, they bring their views of the old Cold War with them. Is this a final chance to complete the unfinished business of 1989, nailing stakes through the heart of the Russian and Chinese empires? Is talk of a new cold war a distraction cooked up by the military-industrial complex to stoke arms sales—and a last hurrah for the neoconservatives who failed so badly with their wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?

I distrust simplistic schemes of thought, not least because I have the advantage of remembering the old Cold War. I was a child when the Soviets and their vassals invaded Czechoslovakia and spent my teens campaigning for political prisoners behind the Iron Curtain. I thrilled to the upheaval the Polish pope, John Paul II, sparked in his communist-ruled homeland. I then lived, studied, and worked in the Eastern Bloc, covering the collapse of communism in Czechoslovakia and chronicling the Baltic states’ emergence from Soviet occupation to restored nationhood. But at the same time, I remember my native Britain’s claustrophobic culture of official secrecy, its deplorable moral compromises such as tacit support for the South African apartheid regime, and the pervasive climate of fear. The Cold War needed to be fought, but it is nothing to be nostalgic about.

Unlike most journalists who specialized in the region in that era, I did not move on after the West’s Cold War victory. I started worrying that the West was misreading post-Soviet Russia. Although the planned economy and one-party state were gone, the ingrained imperialist mindset, it seemed to me, was not. Sergey Karaganov, an advisor to the supposedly pro-Western Russian President Boris Yeltsin, said in 1992 that Russia had the right—indeed the duty—to intervene in neighboring countries on behalf of people the Kremlin considered Russians. This could be people who were Russian by ethnic descent, by linguistic or cultural affiliation, or through political loyalty. This view—which was around long before Russian President Vladimir Putin turned it into official policy—was as slippery as Adolf Hitler’s campaign on behalf of Volksdeutsche—the ethnic Germans whose mistreatment was the pretext for the Third Reich’s territorial claims on Czechoslovakia.

The biggest and most important difference between the Cold War era and today is that the West has forgotten the rules of the game and how to win it.

As my worries about Russia’s latent—and increasingly not-so-latent—imperialism grew, so did my concerns about the Western failure to react. The old democracies, such as Britain, Germany, France, and Italy, were stunningly ignorant about the countries to their east. This ignorance stoked arrogance and complacency. Greed played another big role in distorting perceptions: Bankers, lawyers, accountants, advisors, and assorted fixers and grifters all flocked to Moscow on the caviar express, as the procession of unscrupulous, high-earning Western expats became known. Many of them made their personal fortunes as Russia staggered toward what seemed to be a market economy.

Exasperated by the continuing underestimation of the threat, I wrote a book, The New Cold War. Published in 2008, it warned readers that the rest of the world was in an undeclared but fierce struggle with a Russian regime that hewed to repression at home and aggression abroad. They should wake up or risk losing. Although the book’s title succeeded in grabbing attention, I made it explicit that the new cold war was very different from the old one. For a start, Russia is far weaker than the Soviet Union. The latter, for all its failings, was indeed a superpower. Russia is the world’s largest country by landmass and has a huge nuclear arsenal—but its economy is only one-tenth the size of the European Union’s. Its defense spending is less than one-tenth that of the United States.

Secondly, Russia lacks a soft power arsenal. Communism was a coherent ideology with global appeal. Putinism—a mixture of anti-Westernism, religious obscurantism, Russian chauvinism, and Soviet nostalgia—is incoherent and of limited appeal in the outside world. The Soviet Union was a magnet for intellectuals and cultural figures, such as the American singer Paul Robeson, who was incensed by the injustices and racism of 1930s America. Communism as a theory—not so much in reality—was attractive to a swath of idealists around the world. That is not the case for Russia now, of course. The most prominent foreign catches for Putin’s regime are the fugitive U.S. intelligence contractor Edward Snowden and the martial arts star Steven Seagal. These are hardly the counterparts of luminaries such as the French philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre and the British socialists Sidney and Beatrice Webb.

Yet in some respects the new cold war at least rhymes with the old one. The West has a serious military confrontation with Moscow in Europe with Putin’s invasion of Ukraine. The Cold War standoff over West Berlin—which started with the Soviet blockade in 1948, peaked with the 1961 Berlin crisis, and abated only with the four-power agreement of 1971—is mirrored these days in the Baltic states. Like West Berlin during the Cold War, they are hard, perhaps even impossible, to defend but symbolically vital. If Putin does not get his way in Ukraine, testing NATO’s unity and resolve over its willingness to defend these three small countries will be a tempting option. And if he does gain something to depict as victory in Ukraine, then moving on to the Baltics to exploit the perceived failure of the United States and its allies will be even more tempting.


Despite Russia’s lack of a globally attractive ideology, there is a clear clash of ideas. The West likes to think the argument is about democracy and the rule of law, but that is only partly true. In the good-government rankings, some Russian allies, such as Armenia, would probably score better than some Western ones, such as Turkey under President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. That, too, recalls the old Cold War, when the fact that Spain, Portugal, Greece, and Turkey were at various times dictatorships did not impede their membership in NATO.

The real clash of ideas today is about sovereignty. The United States and its European allies wish to uphold the post-1991 settlement in which countries can make their own choices about security and geopolitical orientation. Russia regards that as impermissible. In the Kremlin’s mind, any deals made in the early 1990s were the result of economic duress and negated by subsequently broken Western promises (such as the long-debunked assurance that NATO would not enlarge). Russia now states very clearly that it wishes the United States to end its security role in Europe and NATO to abandon any practical defense of its post-1991 members.

In today’s version of the Cold War, financial and economic relations play a far more significant role. The Soviet Union and its satellite countries did not have Eurobonds or companies listed on Western stock exchanges. They exported limited amounts of natural gas and oil. Russia has created quite different conditions, thanks to global integration since 1991: At the heart of political decision-making in countries such as Germany, economic integration has created a pro-Russian lobby, which blunted reactions to the Kremlin’s mischief for many decades. Today, the era of so-called win-win trade and investment relations has given way to a chilling (literally) realization of the costs. We have discovered how hard it is for some European countries to reduce their dependence on Russian natural gas, oil, and coal. In the Soviet era, the Kremlin mismanaged agriculture so badly that the country had to import grain, whereas capitalism has turned post-independence Ukraine into one of the world’s largest food exporters. The threat of global famine as a result of Russia’s invasion is shaping the world’s diplomatic response.

The Soviet high command knew that an attack on a well-prepared adversary would be costly and likely fruitless.

The biggest and most important difference, however, is that the West has forgotten the rules of the game and how to win it. Over four decades of the old Cold War, the United States and its allies learned many useful lessons. They worked out how to combat communist propaganda and subversion. They configured their military posture to provide credible conventional and nuclear defense of Western Europe. They controlled their supply chains, put a tight lid on dual-use exports, and built military and civilian infrastructure. The successes of the Soviet space program provided the impetus to take science and technology seriously. Government information policy prepared the civilian population for the possibility of nuclear war and tried hard to ensure that the gruesome failures of Soviet rule were well understood by publics on both sides of the Iron Curtain. Western countries devoted enormous diplomatic resources to countering Soviet influence in the rest of the world and within international organizations from the United Nations on down. In all, the United States and its allies spent colossal amounts of money on these and other national security priorities.

All this boosted deterrence: The Soviet high command knew that an attack on a well-prepared adversary would be costly and likely fruitless.

While the West certainly needs to relearn deterrence, it is only one of the lessons from the old Cold War. The United States and its allies also worked out something else: how to manage a constant but changing conflict. The success of the Berlin airlift showed that the Soviet Union could be faced down. The alarming ebb and flow of the Korean War showed the dangers of weakness and overstretch. Heady talk of so-called rollback—the toppling of Soviet domination of Eastern Europe—ended with the West’s failure to support the 1956 Hungarian uprising. Instead, the emphasis became containment, ensuring that the Soviet empire did not expand—by exploiting the collapse of European colonial rule in Africa, for example. From Nikita Khrushchev onward, every Soviet leader was seen by the West as a potential interlocutor. To minimize the risk of escalation and convey the West’s resolve to defend itself, it was all the more important to find channels of communication.

All these lessons need to be learned anew. For all its military superiority over Russia’s decrepit forces, NATO is struggling to create a credible defense for the Baltic states, for Poland, and in the Black Sea region. Washington and its allies also need a comprehensive defense against the full spectrum of hybrid warfare that Moscow—and, for that matter, Beijing—are already deploying. That will require hard thinking on questions ranging from restrictions affecting higher education to the role of technology companies in curbing propaganda attacks. Cybersecurity, supply chain resilience, and boosting social trust and cohesion are priorities in this new type of cold war, too.

While doing all that, the other big task is creating a diplomatic framework for dealing with the Kremlin. One aim must be better Western cohesion that puts a stop to Russia’s ability to divide NATO and the EU. Another lesson from the old Cold War is to communicate unambiguously the colossal costs Russia will incur with any military adventure against the Baltic states or other NATO member. A third is to minimize the risk of accidental escalation, particularly with hotlines, to avoid a misunderstanding leading to the use of nuclear weapons.

This is not a call for endless, empty dialogue—the kind long promoted by the now-discredited German foreign-policy establishment. The point is not to befriend Russia or seek to change the nature of the regime through economic or cultural entanglement. These diplomatic frameworks and processes are a means to an end, not an end in themselves.

Yes, the world is now in a new cold war. That is all the more reason not to be confused about the old one. The differences and similarities are important and offer many useful lessons. But they are relevant only if we act on them.
Source



On July 05 2022 20:45 Magic Powers wrote:
I recommend you watch some of the videos by 1420, it shows that Russians are not anywhere near as much in favor of this war as the Russian propaganda is trying to make us believe.


The Ukrainians have the appropriate memes for this occasion:



Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4478 Posts
July 05 2022 14:55 GMT
#3114
On July 05 2022 23:43 Ghanburighan wrote:
Edward Lucas, one of the people who continued to research Russia's imperialism after the Soviet Union fell, wrote a thought-provoking article on the similarities and differences between the old and new Cold War. Notice that his suggested reapplication of the policy of "containment" has unfortunate implications on Ukraine... unless they free themselves from Russian troops, they'll be considered to be on the wrong side of the demarcation line, or, at best, in the no-man-zone.

(spoilered due to length)
+ Show Spoiler +


The West Needs a Cure for Cold War Fever

The less you know about the old Cold War, the more you’ll be tempted to feel nostalgia—or shivers down your spine. One narrative glorifies the decadeslong conflict as a time of crystalline moral clarity—a Manichean struggle between good and evil, pursued with exemplary collective purpose and discipline. It ended in triumph with the collapse of communism: the disintegration first of the Soviet empire in Eastern Europe and then of the Soviet Union itself. Never mind that the East-West struggle played out very differently for many countries in Latin America, Africa, and Asia, where it was an era of proxy wars fueled by ruthless superpower competition.

Another all-too-simple narrative sees the Cold War as a barely avoided apocalypse. The terrifying era of nuclear brinkmanship was marked by near-disasters including the 1962 Cuban missile crisis and the 1983 Able Archer incident, where the Kremlin misinterpreted a NATO exercise of that name as preparations for a surprise attack. If the Cold War ended peacefully, this narrative goes, it was only by the skin of our teeth. Had we been just a tad less lucky, I wouldn’t be here to write this article, nor would you be here to read it.

So, when people describe the current conflict between the rich democracies and the Sino-Russian authoritarian axis as a new cold war, they bring their views of the old Cold War with them. Is this a final chance to complete the unfinished business of 1989, nailing stakes through the heart of the Russian and Chinese empires? Is talk of a new cold war a distraction cooked up by the military-industrial complex to stoke arms sales—and a last hurrah for the neoconservatives who failed so badly with their wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?

I distrust simplistic schemes of thought, not least because I have the advantage of remembering the old Cold War. I was a child when the Soviets and their vassals invaded Czechoslovakia and spent my teens campaigning for political prisoners behind the Iron Curtain. I thrilled to the upheaval the Polish pope, John Paul II, sparked in his communist-ruled homeland. I then lived, studied, and worked in the Eastern Bloc, covering the collapse of communism in Czechoslovakia and chronicling the Baltic states’ emergence from Soviet occupation to restored nationhood. But at the same time, I remember my native Britain’s claustrophobic culture of official secrecy, its deplorable moral compromises such as tacit support for the South African apartheid regime, and the pervasive climate of fear. The Cold War needed to be fought, but it is nothing to be nostalgic about.

Unlike most journalists who specialized in the region in that era, I did not move on after the West’s Cold War victory. I started worrying that the West was misreading post-Soviet Russia. Although the planned economy and one-party state were gone, the ingrained imperialist mindset, it seemed to me, was not. Sergey Karaganov, an advisor to the supposedly pro-Western Russian President Boris Yeltsin, said in 1992 that Russia had the right—indeed the duty—to intervene in neighboring countries on behalf of people the Kremlin considered Russians. This could be people who were Russian by ethnic descent, by linguistic or cultural affiliation, or through political loyalty. This view—which was around long before Russian President Vladimir Putin turned it into official policy—was as slippery as Adolf Hitler’s campaign on behalf of Volksdeutsche—the ethnic Germans whose mistreatment was the pretext for the Third Reich’s territorial claims on Czechoslovakia.

The biggest and most important difference between the Cold War era and today is that the West has forgotten the rules of the game and how to win it.

As my worries about Russia’s latent—and increasingly not-so-latent—imperialism grew, so did my concerns about the Western failure to react. The old democracies, such as Britain, Germany, France, and Italy, were stunningly ignorant about the countries to their east. This ignorance stoked arrogance and complacency. Greed played another big role in distorting perceptions: Bankers, lawyers, accountants, advisors, and assorted fixers and grifters all flocked to Moscow on the caviar express, as the procession of unscrupulous, high-earning Western expats became known. Many of them made their personal fortunes as Russia staggered toward what seemed to be a market economy.

Exasperated by the continuing underestimation of the threat, I wrote a book, The New Cold War. Published in 2008, it warned readers that the rest of the world was in an undeclared but fierce struggle with a Russian regime that hewed to repression at home and aggression abroad. They should wake up or risk losing. Although the book’s title succeeded in grabbing attention, I made it explicit that the new cold war was very different from the old one. For a start, Russia is far weaker than the Soviet Union. The latter, for all its failings, was indeed a superpower. Russia is the world’s largest country by landmass and has a huge nuclear arsenal—but its economy is only one-tenth the size of the European Union’s. Its defense spending is less than one-tenth that of the United States.

Secondly, Russia lacks a soft power arsenal. Communism was a coherent ideology with global appeal. Putinism—a mixture of anti-Westernism, religious obscurantism, Russian chauvinism, and Soviet nostalgia—is incoherent and of limited appeal in the outside world. The Soviet Union was a magnet for intellectuals and cultural figures, such as the American singer Paul Robeson, who was incensed by the injustices and racism of 1930s America. Communism as a theory—not so much in reality—was attractive to a swath of idealists around the world. That is not the case for Russia now, of course. The most prominent foreign catches for Putin’s regime are the fugitive U.S. intelligence contractor Edward Snowden and the martial arts star Steven Seagal. These are hardly the counterparts of luminaries such as the French philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre and the British socialists Sidney and Beatrice Webb.

Yet in some respects the new cold war at least rhymes with the old one. The West has a serious military confrontation with Moscow in Europe with Putin’s invasion of Ukraine. The Cold War standoff over West Berlin—which started with the Soviet blockade in 1948, peaked with the 1961 Berlin crisis, and abated only with the four-power agreement of 1971—is mirrored these days in the Baltic states. Like West Berlin during the Cold War, they are hard, perhaps even impossible, to defend but symbolically vital. If Putin does not get his way in Ukraine, testing NATO’s unity and resolve over its willingness to defend these three small countries will be a tempting option. And if he does gain something to depict as victory in Ukraine, then moving on to the Baltics to exploit the perceived failure of the United States and its allies will be even more tempting.


Despite Russia’s lack of a globally attractive ideology, there is a clear clash of ideas. The West likes to think the argument is about democracy and the rule of law, but that is only partly true. In the good-government rankings, some Russian allies, such as Armenia, would probably score better than some Western ones, such as Turkey under President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. That, too, recalls the old Cold War, when the fact that Spain, Portugal, Greece, and Turkey were at various times dictatorships did not impede their membership in NATO.

The real clash of ideas today is about sovereignty. The United States and its European allies wish to uphold the post-1991 settlement in which countries can make their own choices about security and geopolitical orientation. Russia regards that as impermissible. In the Kremlin’s mind, any deals made in the early 1990s were the result of economic duress and negated by subsequently broken Western promises (such as the long-debunked assurance that NATO would not enlarge). Russia now states very clearly that it wishes the United States to end its security role in Europe and NATO to abandon any practical defense of its post-1991 members.

In today’s version of the Cold War, financial and economic relations play a far more significant role. The Soviet Union and its satellite countries did not have Eurobonds or companies listed on Western stock exchanges. They exported limited amounts of natural gas and oil. Russia has created quite different conditions, thanks to global integration since 1991: At the heart of political decision-making in countries such as Germany, economic integration has created a pro-Russian lobby, which blunted reactions to the Kremlin’s mischief for many decades. Today, the era of so-called win-win trade and investment relations has given way to a chilling (literally) realization of the costs. We have discovered how hard it is for some European countries to reduce their dependence on Russian natural gas, oil, and coal. In the Soviet era, the Kremlin mismanaged agriculture so badly that the country had to import grain, whereas capitalism has turned post-independence Ukraine into one of the world’s largest food exporters. The threat of global famine as a result of Russia’s invasion is shaping the world’s diplomatic response.

The Soviet high command knew that an attack on a well-prepared adversary would be costly and likely fruitless.

The biggest and most important difference, however, is that the West has forgotten the rules of the game and how to win it. Over four decades of the old Cold War, the United States and its allies learned many useful lessons. They worked out how to combat communist propaganda and subversion. They configured their military posture to provide credible conventional and nuclear defense of Western Europe. They controlled their supply chains, put a tight lid on dual-use exports, and built military and civilian infrastructure. The successes of the Soviet space program provided the impetus to take science and technology seriously. Government information policy prepared the civilian population for the possibility of nuclear war and tried hard to ensure that the gruesome failures of Soviet rule were well understood by publics on both sides of the Iron Curtain. Western countries devoted enormous diplomatic resources to countering Soviet influence in the rest of the world and within international organizations from the United Nations on down. In all, the United States and its allies spent colossal amounts of money on these and other national security priorities.

All this boosted deterrence: The Soviet high command knew that an attack on a well-prepared adversary would be costly and likely fruitless.

While the West certainly needs to relearn deterrence, it is only one of the lessons from the old Cold War. The United States and its allies also worked out something else: how to manage a constant but changing conflict. The success of the Berlin airlift showed that the Soviet Union could be faced down. The alarming ebb and flow of the Korean War showed the dangers of weakness and overstretch. Heady talk of so-called rollback—the toppling of Soviet domination of Eastern Europe—ended with the West’s failure to support the 1956 Hungarian uprising. Instead, the emphasis became containment, ensuring that the Soviet empire did not expand—by exploiting the collapse of European colonial rule in Africa, for example. From Nikita Khrushchev onward, every Soviet leader was seen by the West as a potential interlocutor. To minimize the risk of escalation and convey the West’s resolve to defend itself, it was all the more important to find channels of communication.

All these lessons need to be learned anew. For all its military superiority over Russia’s decrepit forces, NATO is struggling to create a credible defense for the Baltic states, for Poland, and in the Black Sea region. Washington and its allies also need a comprehensive defense against the full spectrum of hybrid warfare that Moscow—and, for that matter, Beijing—are already deploying. That will require hard thinking on questions ranging from restrictions affecting higher education to the role of technology companies in curbing propaganda attacks. Cybersecurity, supply chain resilience, and boosting social trust and cohesion are priorities in this new type of cold war, too.

While doing all that, the other big task is creating a diplomatic framework for dealing with the Kremlin. One aim must be better Western cohesion that puts a stop to Russia’s ability to divide NATO and the EU. Another lesson from the old Cold War is to communicate unambiguously the colossal costs Russia will incur with any military adventure against the Baltic states or other NATO member. A third is to minimize the risk of accidental escalation, particularly with hotlines, to avoid a misunderstanding leading to the use of nuclear weapons.

This is not a call for endless, empty dialogue—the kind long promoted by the now-discredited German foreign-policy establishment. The point is not to befriend Russia or seek to change the nature of the regime through economic or cultural entanglement. These diplomatic frameworks and processes are a means to an end, not an end in themselves.

Yes, the world is now in a new cold war. That is all the more reason not to be confused about the old one. The differences and similarities are important and offer many useful lessons. But they are relevant only if we act on them.
Source



Show nested quote +
On July 05 2022 20:45 Magic Powers wrote:
I recommend you watch some of the videos by 1420, it shows that Russians are not anywhere near as much in favor of this war as the Russian propaganda is trying to make us believe.


The Ukrainians have the appropriate memes for this occasion:

https://twitter.com/kristin_mkvn/status/1544311742888542208



Right, and all Americans are gun-crazy and all Germans are always angry.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
Silvanel
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Poland4768 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-07-05 15:29:51
July 05 2022 15:27 GMT
#3115
@Magic Powers
Your takes on this are very weird. Majority of Russians are ok with invasion. The support for Putin rose after 24 February.
This is supported by multiple sources:
1)Polls
2)Analytics & intelligence
3)Tons of anecdotal evidence

Your comments on the military situation are so off it's not even worth arguing with them. Hence, I will limit myself to pointing out this gem:
On July 05 2022 08:45 Magic Powers wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2022 06:49 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Don't know why you are all acting so suprised that Russia is capable of taking a city that has been slowly encircled for weeks, when I did say they are learning lessons and their army is coordinating over a month ago. Can't remember where I got this from, but it was reported that Russia is throwing about 50 thousand artillery shells a day. This sounds like a lot, and it is if is you are in the target area, but for point of comparison WW1 could see a million shells on certain days. There is no chance Russia will run into supply issues as long as Ukraine cannot strike deep into Russian supply points and Russia keeps its slow rate of advance.


Russia hasn't learned much of a lesson then, as they've only claimed as much ground as they've surrendered, and in the process they've depleted a lot of their arsenal. Russia is already facing supply issues, and has been for weeks at least.

If anything the fall of Lisiczańsk and Siewierdonieck proves that Russians did learn the lessons from the first stage of this war.
Pathetic Greta hater.
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4478 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-07-05 16:03:18
July 05 2022 15:32 GMT
#3116
Which reputable polling stations have asked Russian civilians for their views?


Edit:

There are big issues with Russian polls about the war. For example Denis Volkov hasn't answered questions regarding the validity of his polls. And his work is not truly "independent" from the Russian state.

The following article explains why the authenticity of polls conducted in Russia about the war cannot be readily believed. I strongly recommend reading this one because it's an eye-opener.

https://ridl.io/on-the-harmfulness-of-russian-polls/

The quote Niki posted in his YT video further supports the idea that Russians may be afraid of speaking their mind freely about the war. They've been interviewing Russians for years, so if this behavior sticks out to them, that raises flags.

I prefer not to engage in unreasonable and open hatred of people who live under an oppressive regime, as Russians do. Ukrainians are justified in their hate, but we are not, because we are only observers.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44171 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-07-05 16:24:44
July 05 2022 16:03 GMT
#3117
Propaganda works. Putin has control over the media and has been pushing a specific worldview to a largely insular population. It’s not unreasonable that they would favour his policies and it says little about Russians. People are susceptible to propaganda and there has been a colossal effort into creating systems to pull their levers. Same with Argentines and the Falklands, historical Germans and everyone else in Europe, and Americans and the Middle East. Humans are generally good with tribalism.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
maybenexttime
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Poland5836 Posts
July 05 2022 16:07 GMT
#3118
On July 06 2022 00:32 Magic Powers wrote:
Which reputable polling stations have asked Russian civilians for their views?

Levada. It's independent. You also have polls among the Russia diaspora in the West. The problem with reliability of polls conducted in Russia seems less relevant when you notice that every single source of information - polls among the Russian diaspora, street interviews, intelligence reports, interactions with Russians online, interactions with Russians IRL and information about the opinions of Russian immigrants in the West - paint the exact same picture.
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
July 05 2022 16:20 GMT
#3119
--- Nuked ---
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria4478 Posts
July 05 2022 16:29 GMT
#3120
On July 06 2022 01:07 maybenexttime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2022 00:32 Magic Powers wrote:
Which reputable polling stations have asked Russian civilians for their views?

Levada. It's independent. You also have polls among the Russia diaspora in the West. The problem with reliability of polls conducted in Russia seems less relevant when you notice that every single source of information - polls among the Russian diaspora, street interviews, intelligence reports, interactions with Russians online, interactions with Russians IRL and information about the opinions of Russian immigrants in the West - paint the exact same picture.


The Levada Center is Russian based, they can't be trusted to report accurate numbers. Denis Volkov did not disclose key information. "Independent" in this context has about as much meaning as "democracy", of which there is none in Russia.

And no, the picture is not the same everywhere, hence why I recommend watching the interviews by 1420.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
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