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On August 24 2007 11:01 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2007 10:59 Phyre wrote:
Does anyone know the laws regarding leaving Iran? With regards to all this talk of "tolerating other cultures", it seems like it could work if all citizens were able to leave and apply for entrance into another country of their choosing. Don't like the rules in the USA? You can leave. Don't like the rules in Iran? Somehow I doubt you can freely leave. Outside the EU no country operates that policy and even within the EU it is only for citizens of other member states. As a citizen of America you could probably get a permit to live and work pretty much anywhere you wanted. As a citizen of Iran you'd stand pretty much 0 chance of being allowed to live and work within America, or to be honest, within most of the Western world. It's pretty shameful.
My apologies, I'm not terribly up and up on how immigration laws work. I was under the impression that most more modern countries allow their citizens to leave whenever they want for any reason pretty much. Also, I thought going to other countries was relatively easy. Plenty of international students at the college I go to and it doesn't seem like it would be that hard for most of them to begin working and living here if they so chose. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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United States43061 Posts
On August 24 2007 11:07 Fab Abs wrote:
You have to think like a sociologist. Just because their culture is different from your's doesn't make what they do wrong or right. Everyone is brought up differently according. Your behavior is shaped according to what your nation/society holds dear in order to survive.
Hopefully when you grow up you will understand the world around you better.
There is no such thing as right and wrong. What you are told is 'natural' is in fact unnatural. Nothing we do is natural. Sure, we share many biological/physical attributes except for skin color. Hell, one of my profs even said it: 'We're all shades of black.'
You are raised and shaped to believe certain myths that are the foundation of your nations, i.e. Americans - individualistic, equality and freedom ways whereas Muslims live based on a Patriarchal, male dominated society where religious ideals are favored heavily to maintain order in a chaotic world. They do it to preserve their system and anyone intolerant should know they will receive the same punishment if they don't obey.
You should pick up an American History Textbook sometime. It is the most sugarcoated, Patriotic load of crap I have ever read in my entire life. Read anything based on the Frontier - from the East to the West.
Every society does this though. They want you to catter to the basis of what their society is.
Why do you everyone thinks Canadians are so friendly? It's because Canada was built on a collective system not to mention the winter weather used to be so bad the first settlers had to work together just to survive.
You're right. Their culture isn't bad because it's different. It's bad because of the widespread and systematic human rights abuses. Any questions?
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On August 24 2007 08:20 Kwark wrote:
Short answer is that tolerance is not an absolute. It is based upon whether an action infringes upon human rights. If it does not then we tolerate it. If it does then we do not.
Youre not tolerating their definition of humans rights.
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United States43061 Posts
On August 24 2007 11:09 Phyre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2007 11:01 Kwark wrote:On August 24 2007 10:59 Phyre wrote:
Does anyone know the laws regarding leaving Iran? With regards to all this talk of "tolerating other cultures", it seems like it could work if all citizens were able to leave and apply for entrance into another country of their choosing. Don't like the rules in the USA? You can leave. Don't like the rules in Iran? Somehow I doubt you can freely leave. Outside the EU no country operates that policy and even within the EU it is only for citizens of other member states. As a citizen of America you could probably get a permit to live and work pretty much anywhere you wanted. As a citizen of Iran you'd stand pretty much 0 chance of being allowed to live and work within America, or to be honest, within most of the Western world. It's pretty shameful. My apologies, I'm not terribly up and up on how immigration laws work. I was under the impression that most more modern countries allow their citizens to leave whenever they want for any reason pretty much. Also, I thought going to other countries was relatively easy. Plenty of international students at the college I go to and it doesn't seem like it would be that hard for most of them to begin working and living here if they so chose. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Leave, yes? Enter, no. You can't leave unless you've got somewhere to go.
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United States43061 Posts
On August 24 2007 11:10 XCetron wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2007 08:20 Kwark wrote:
Short answer is that tolerance is not an absolute. It is based upon whether an action infringes upon human rights. If it does not then we tolerate it. If it does then we do not. Youre not tolerating their definition of humans rights.
Correct, I am not. You disagree with the commonly held definition of human rights?
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I think the point is that there is no meta-definition of human rights. Your appeal to "commonly held" is clearly problematic.
Though in principle, as I stated early, I agree with your rejection of post-modern "tolerance".
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That guy sure does have some gay underwear.
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United States43061 Posts
+ Show Spoiler +Now, Therefore THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.
Article 1.
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
Article 3.
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
Article 4.
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.
Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
Article 6.
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.
Article 7.
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.
Article 8.
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.
Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
Article 10.
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.
Article 11.
(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.
Article 12.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
Article 14.
(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
Article 15.
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
Article 16.
(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.
Article 17.
(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.
Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
Article 20.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.
Article 21.
(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.
Article 22.
Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.
Article 23.
(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
Article 24.
Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.
Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.
Article 26.
(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.
Article 27.
(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.
Article 28.
Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.
Article 29.
(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
Article 30.
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.
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In their society there is no such thing as human rights. That is the foundation of Western Society, whereas the communal rite of way in Muslim soceity is to have strict laws to strength their ideology. Everything is punishable by law. They have everyone watch so they know what waits them if they decide not to follow the code.
One right they DO have is to leave the country in exile because they beg to differ, wish to have more freedoms, etc. But, to do that you need money and many do not.
I have many Muslim friends who left on their own accord and yes for some it is against their religious/cultural beliefs to drink, etc. Some do, some choose not to.
They are in America now for a reason.
As for your GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS (rofl)
No society has to follow this declaration and they have every right not to.
In fact, many societies/tribes that you would call primitive (there are thousands of them) don't follow it and would never follow it because they have no need for it.
They simply do what they have to do to survive. If that means beating the hell out of one of their citizens in public then so be it. They are doing what they have to do to the intolerant to preserve the basis of their society.
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On August 24 2007 11:08 HeadBangaa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2007 11:04 Kwark wrote:On August 24 2007 10:39 HeadBangaa wrote:On August 24 2007 10:30 Kwark wrote:On August 24 2007 10:26 HeadBangaa wrote:On August 24 2007 10:15 iosef wrote:
this is what happens when there is no separation of church and state. this is what happens when the state has the power to limit people's individual freedoms and civil rights.
don't blame 'Islam' for this shit. don't blame 'their values' or 'their society.' religious nuts would institute exactly the same rules in the USA if they were given free sway over the government, and you know it. what's scary is that the people who would turn the US into an Iran-style theocracy have tremendous political strength (read: the Christian Right). orly Yes. There are no shortage of campaigns for america to be governed by biblical law. Fortunately there are sufficient moderates for that to be turned down. Examples? Since there's "no shortage", give 3 mainstream examples. Also, remember that the original poster claimed that religious nuts in the US would implement "exactly the same" rules, so list something reasonably comparable. You ask for mainstream examples of extremism. You must see why that's difficult to provide. Hmm, I knew you misunderstood, which is why I directed you to iosef's post, which was what I responded to. He stated that contemporary religious people in the United States would implement the same laws. I questioned that. You said there's no shortage of such political bids. I said "show me a few". You said, "i can't, that's hard". lol Rather than admit your hyperbole, you give me that garbage post. Pffft
your logic here is deficient. there are people in the US that would implement these same laws. a fairlylarge number even. you dismissed them because they are not 'mainstream,' well, of course they aren't, by definition. they aren't mainstream because the US has separation of church and state. it has civil rights. Iran is an example of a state without such protections.
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sadly it's quite barbaric in that part of the world. they don't know anything other than fighting, war, and hard religion so it's hard to judge them from outside the bubble. however, i think we all can agree that forced punishment on religious premise shouldn't be happening, period. this is the kind of stuff that richard dawkins warns us about when people say religion is not harmful.
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On August 24 2007 11:19 Kwark wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Now, Therefore THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.
Article 1.
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
Article 3.
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
Article 4.
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.
Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
Article 6.
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.
Article 7.
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.
Article 8.
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.
Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
Article 10.
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.
Article 11.
(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.
Article 12.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
Article 14.
(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
Article 15.
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
Article 16.
(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.
Article 17.
(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.
Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
Article 20.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.
Article 21.
(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.
Article 22.
Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.
Article 23.
(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
Article 24.
Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.
Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.
Article 26.
(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.
Article 27.
(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.
Article 28.
Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.
Article 29.
(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
Article 30.
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.
Are you implying that this was authored in a context-free environment?
I think you miss my point.
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Did the women get caught having sex with him? Man I feel bad for him, women arent treated much better though, they get beaten up from their husbands. I saw this one like documentary sorta ish but it was more of a movie, about some white woman married to an islamic man and he convinces her to go to iran for their family and says its gonna be ok but when they get there he beats the crap out of her. she somehow escapes with these nice islam people, great movie.
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United States43061 Posts
On August 24 2007 11:19 Fab Abs wrote:
In their society there is no such thing as human rights. That is the foundation of Western Society, whereas the communal rite of way in Muslim soceity is to have strict laws to strength their ideology. Everything is punishable by law. They have everyone watch so they know what waits them if they decide not to follow the code.
One right they DO have is to leave the country in exile because they beg to differ, wish to have more freedoms, etc. But, to do that you need money and many do not.
I have many Muslim friends who left on their own accord and yes for some it is against their religious/cultural beliefs to drink, etc. Some do, some choose not to.
They are in America now for a reason.
As for your GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS (rofl)
No society has to follow this declaration and they have every right not to.
In fact, many societies/tribes that you would call primitive (there are thousands of them) don't follow it and would never follow it because they have no need for it.
The thing you are so happily 'rofl'ing at was the UN statute on human rights. Just so you know. Oh, and the UN is considered an important organisation by many.
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On August 24 2007 11:21 iosef wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2007 11:08 HeadBangaa wrote:On August 24 2007 11:04 Kwark wrote:On August 24 2007 10:39 HeadBangaa wrote:On August 24 2007 10:30 Kwark wrote:On August 24 2007 10:26 HeadBangaa wrote:On August 24 2007 10:15 iosef wrote:
this is what happens when there is no separation of church and state. this is what happens when the state has the power to limit people's individual freedoms and civil rights.
don't blame 'Islam' for this shit. don't blame 'their values' or 'their society.' religious nuts would institute exactly the same rules in the USA if they were given free sway over the government, and you know it. what's scary is that the people who would turn the US into an Iran-style theocracy have tremendous political strength (read: the Christian Right). orly Yes. There are no shortage of campaigns for america to be governed by biblical law. Fortunately there are sufficient moderates for that to be turned down. Examples? Since there's "no shortage", give 3 mainstream examples. Also, remember that the original poster claimed that religious nuts in the US would implement "exactly the same" rules, so list something reasonably comparable. You ask for mainstream examples of extremism. You must see why that's difficult to provide. Hmm, I knew you misunderstood, which is why I directed you to iosef's post, which was what I responded to. He stated that contemporary religious people in the United States would implement the same laws. I questioned that. You said there's no shortage of such political bids. I said "show me a few". You said, "i can't, that's hard". lol Rather than admit your hyperbole, you give me that garbage post. Pffft your logic here is deficient. there are people in the US that would implement these same laws. a fairlylarge number even. you dismissed them because they are not 'mainstream,' well, of course they aren't, by definition. they aren't mainstream because the US has separation of church and state. it has civil rights. Iran is an example of a state without such protections.
First of all, I'm going to leave you with whatever definitions of "separation" and "civil rights" you currently have.
Secondly, when making a qualitative comparison between cultures, it's unfair to not weigh-in the proliferation of the individual ideologies you're comparing. The dumbasses have control in Iran, but not here. Our culture would never allow it, because the extremist would never be able to garner support for, from your example, "death penalty for gays". This distinguishes our culture from that of Iran's.
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United States43061 Posts
On August 24 2007 11:22 HeadBangaa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2007 11:19 Kwark wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Now, Therefore THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.
Article 1.
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
Article 3.
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
Article 4.
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.
Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
Article 6.
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.
Article 7.
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.
Article 8.
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.
Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
Article 10.
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.
Article 11.
(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.
Article 12.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
Article 14.
(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
Article 15.
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
Article 16.
(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.
Article 17.
(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.
Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
Article 20.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.
Article 21.
(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.
Article 22.
Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.
Article 23.
(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
Article 24.
Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.
Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.
Article 26.
(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.
Article 27.
(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.
Article 28.
Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.
Article 29.
(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
Article 30.
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein. Are you implying that this was authored in a context-free environment? I think you miss my point.
Of course it was written in a context. 50 years ago gay marriage would have been a shocking idea to everyone. In 50 years I hope the idea of it not being legal is equally shocking. The UN declaration of human rights is however authored in the most recent international context. If I could see into the future and find a human rights document from a context in which humanity is even more civilised I would be eager to apply that one. However given my inability to do so I shall rely on the most recent context.
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On August 24 2007 11:27 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2007 11:19 Fab Abs wrote:
In their society there is no such thing as human rights. That is the foundation of Western Society, whereas the communal rite of way in Muslim soceity is to have strict laws to strength their ideology. Everything is punishable by law. They have everyone watch so they know what waits them if they decide not to follow the code.
One right they DO have is to leave the country in exile because they beg to differ, wish to have more freedoms, etc. But, to do that you need money and many do not.
I have many Muslim friends who left on their own accord and yes for some it is against their religious/cultural beliefs to drink, etc. Some do, some choose not to.
They are in America now for a reason.
As for your GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS (rofl)
No society has to follow this declaration and they have every right not to.
In fact, many societies/tribes that you would call primitive (there are thousands of them) don't follow it and would never follow it because they have no need for it. The thing you are so happily 'rofl'ing at was the UN statute on human rights. Just so you know. Oh, and the UN is considered an important organisation by many.
And in the end, even you admit that the validity of the viewpoint depends on the amount of support it's purporting institution has. There is no self-proving definition of human rights.
I just don't see how such impositions are to be seen as valid within a culture which views itself as discrete from, not just the UN, but Western Civilization.
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United States43061 Posts
On August 24 2007 11:08 HeadBangaa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2007 11:04 Kwark wrote:On August 24 2007 10:39 HeadBangaa wrote:On August 24 2007 10:30 Kwark wrote:On August 24 2007 10:26 HeadBangaa wrote:On August 24 2007 10:15 iosef wrote:
this is what happens when there is no separation of church and state. this is what happens when the state has the power to limit people's individual freedoms and civil rights.
don't blame 'Islam' for this shit. don't blame 'their values' or 'their society.' religious nuts would institute exactly the same rules in the USA if they were given free sway over the government, and you know it. what's scary is that the people who would turn the US into an Iran-style theocracy have tremendous political strength (read: the Christian Right). orly Yes. There are no shortage of campaigns for america to be governed by biblical law. Fortunately there are sufficient moderates for that to be turned down. Examples? Since there's "no shortage", give 3 mainstream examples. Also, remember that the original poster claimed that religious nuts in the US would implement "exactly the same" rules, so list something reasonably comparable. You ask for mainstream examples of extremism. You must see why that's difficult to provide. Hmm, I knew you misunderstood, which is why I directed you to iosef's post, which was what I responded to. He stated that contemporary religious people in the United States would implement the same laws. I questioned that. You said there's no shortage of such political bids. I said "show me a few". You said, "i can't, that's hard". lol Rather than admit your hyperbole, you give me that garbage post. Pffft
You twisted what I said. I simply said there was no shortage of Americans who wanted biblical law and rule. You asked me to find mainstream examples. My defence that there were no mainstream examples was correct, not because there were no examples of extremism but because, to repeat the obvious, extremism isn't mainstream.
However to meet your request I present you with this guy.
http://www.teamtancredo.com/
I believe he's standing on a Dominionist platform.
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United States43061 Posts
On August 24 2007 11:31 HeadBangaa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2007 11:27 Kwark wrote:On August 24 2007 11:19 Fab Abs wrote:
In their society there is no such thing as human rights. That is the foundation of Western Society, whereas the communal rite of way in Muslim soceity is to have strict laws to strength their ideology. Everything is punishable by law. They have everyone watch so they know what waits them if they decide not to follow the code.
One right they DO have is to leave the country in exile because they beg to differ, wish to have more freedoms, etc. But, to do that you need money and many do not.
I have many Muslim friends who left on their own accord and yes for some it is against their religious/cultural beliefs to drink, etc. Some do, some choose not to.
They are in America now for a reason.
As for your GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS (rofl)
No society has to follow this declaration and they have every right not to.
In fact, many societies/tribes that you would call primitive (there are thousands of them) don't follow it and would never follow it because they have no need for it. The thing you are so happily 'rofl'ing at was the UN statute on human rights. Just so you know. Oh, and the UN is considered an important organisation by many. And in the end, even you admit that the validity of the viewpoint depends on the amount of support it's purporting institution has. There is no self-proving definition of human rights. I just don't see how such impositions are to be seen as valid within a culture which views itself as discrete from, not just the UN, but Western Civilization.
They don't have to be seen as valid to be correct. Every now and then in Britain right wing tabloids go crazy when an asylum seeker rapes someone. Basically this is some retard who declares he has a right to sex and because British women do not wear veils they are all whores and thus should submit to his desires. When we imprison them they rant on about the great injustice being done to them. That doesn't make it any less just. It just makes them more retarded.
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On August 24 2007 11:30 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2007 11:22 HeadBangaa wrote:On August 24 2007 11:19 Kwark wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Now, Therefore THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.
Article 1.
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
Article 3.
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
Article 4.
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.
Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
Article 6.
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.
Article 7.
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.
Article 8.
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.
Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
Article 10.
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.
Article 11.
(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.
Article 12.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
Article 14.
(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
Article 15.
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
Article 16.
(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.
Article 17.
(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.
Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
Article 20.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.
Article 21.
(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.
Article 22.
Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.
Article 23.
(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
Article 24.
Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.
Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.
Article 26.
(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.
Article 27.
(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.
Article 28.
Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.
Article 29.
(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
Article 30.
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein. Are you implying that this was authored in a context-free environment? I think you miss my point. Of course it was written in a context. 50 years ago gay marriage would have been a shocking idea to everyone. In 50 years I hope the idea of it not being legal is equally shocking. The UN declaration of human rights is however authored in the most recent international context. If I could see into the future and find a human rights document from a context in which humanity is even more civili(z)ed I would be eager to apply that one. However given my inability to do so I shall rely on the most recent context.
I'm just whittling the argument down to the point where you use a personal opinion to separate the chaff from the wheat. Implying that society is moving towards enlightenment, and that we can objectively differentiate between "good" ideas and "bad" ideas by choosing them according to timescale. But again, the cultural evolution you speak of is within your own culture, and you still haven't stepped out of the box.
Sorry if this is not making sense, I'm altered state right now. wink wink nod nod
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EPT
