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On November 07 2023 23:37 MaGic~PhiL wrote: What is annoying me the most is.. otherwise sane and honest people just acting as if "being for less suffering and more freedom for Palestine, and civilians of the area" equates to "being pro hamas"
Honestly flabbergasted how normally solid intellectuals (David Deutsch, Sam Harris come to mind) either fail to make that distinction or are completely intellectually dishonest..
what bothers me is... The level of economic opportunity in canada has declined quite a bit the past 15 years. Instead of focusing on that issue politicians at all levels of government get to avoid accountability by talking about conflicts going on 10,000 KM away.
On November 07 2023 23:37 MaGic~PhiL wrote: normally solid intellectuals (Sam Harris)
I see the issue there
But yes I agree with your general point that this conflict is quite revealing when it comes to the principles that a lot of people, especially liberals, claim to adhere to.
On November 07 2023 23:37 MaGic~PhiL wrote: Also what angers me is the lack of JEWS/BIG NAMES openly criticising Israel/the goverment/Nethanjau/the overall horrible policy the last couple of decades..
(I know they exist but they are few and far between..)
On November 08 2023 00:32 Velr wrote: The anti-jewish rhetoric among much of the (internet) left is far beyond anything that can be explained by concerns for palestinians.
This is shitty. You can't equate any criticisms of Isreal as being anti jewish. Its just a free pass to do whatever they want by being shielded by their race. Its much worse than the hysterics the right makes about being called racist over anything.
On November 08 2023 00:32 Velr wrote: The anti-jewish rhetoric among much of the (internet) left is far beyond anything that can be explained by concerns for palestinians.
This is shitty. You can't equate any criticisms of Isreal as being anti jewish. Its just a free pass to do whatever they want by being shielded by their race. Its much worse than the hysterics the right makes about being called racist over anything.
just to nit pick a detail here. jew/judaism is not a race. it is an interpretation of the bible and i think its an alternative interpretation of the abrahamic era prophets. i get what you are saying though.
The anti Israel stuff is 100% bleeding into antisemitism as well. It is shameful. I had no idea there was such issues with antisemitism within the knee jerk “anti imperialism” crowd, but here we are. Apparently a big part of imperialism in conducted by the classic scapegoat in the eyes of the knee jerk reaction left.
I dunno who will be trying to primary Tlaib, but I think she will be the first person who I donate against. The way antisemitism is being dishonestly framed as “uhhh uhhhh I am just saying Israel is bad! Because of colonies or whatever I forget, but long story short they are killing children”
On November 08 2023 01:35 Mohdoo wrote: “uhhh uhhhh I am just saying Israel is bad! Because of colonies or whatever I forget, but long story short they are killing children”
On November 08 2023 01:35 Mohdoo wrote: “uhhh uhhhh I am just saying Israel is bad! Because of colonies or whatever I forget, but long story short they are killing children”
Sounds like they have a good point
Even if someone buys into Israel's propaganda, they've shown nothing to remotely rationalize killing 4000+ children.
On November 08 2023 01:35 Mohdoo wrote: “uhhh uhhhh I am just saying Israel is bad! Because of colonies or whatever I forget, but long story short they are killing children”
Sounds like they have a good point
Even if we made a conscious decision to believe the numbers provided by the same terrorists who said 500 people died when a hospital was destroyed, which wasn’t destroyed, the situation is not caused by Israel. Iran and other nations going out of their way to use Palestinians as martyrs is a decision they made all on their own. Putting Israel in a situation where they need to kill some terrorists is not the fault of Israel. The world is making a conscious decision to ignore the fact that Hamas recently reiterated the fact that “civilians” dying is intentional and that it is honorable for those who are killed.
So we have Iran and other nations creating the situation. Then Hamas expanding on that by forcing “civilian” structures or areas to be bombed. Then blame it on Israel. It’s a perfectly dishonest situation. The fact that no one has any intention of dismantling the network propping up Hamas is all we need to know. The goal is to artificially create situations where Palestinians are killed by Israel and then blame Israel for doing it. Either people get mad at Israel or Israelis die. Either way it’s a win/win situation for the people pretending they don’t understand why or how the situation is being created.
On November 08 2023 01:35 Mohdoo wrote: “uhhh uhhhh I am just saying Israel is bad! Because of colonies or whatever I forget, but long story short they are killing children”
Sounds like they have a good point
Even if someone buys into Israel's propaganda, they've shown nothing to remotely rationalize killing 4000+ children.
I'm afraid mentioning the deaths of those children might fall under some people's definition of anti-Semitism.
On November 08 2023 01:35 Mohdoo wrote: The anti Israel stuff is 100% bleeding into antisemitism as well. It is shameful.
i just show the open minded coherent ones a map of israel from 1948 to today and explain why israel took extra land. after that, they often soften their stance. i do not know how to deal with the incoherent and/or close minded ones though.
2 guys from the gang i played SC1 with at a PC Bang regularly for 10 years were super hard core antisemites. after some talks with me and their own research and deeper investigations ( they should get credit for putting in the work rather than mindlessly spouting drivel) they changed their stance on Israel.
antisemitism will always be around. Keep in mind that the purpose of news outlets in 2023 is not to inform you. the purpose of news outlets in 2023 is to get you to watch more news. So the media makes the sleepiest, most nonviolent suburb in Canada look like a "hotbed of antisemitism". ok guys. LOL.
On November 08 2023 01:35 Mohdoo wrote: “uhhh uhhhh I am just saying Israel is bad! Because of colonies or whatever I forget, but long story short they are killing children”
Sounds like they have a good point
Even if we made a conscious decision to believe the numbers provided by the same terrorists who said 500 people died when a hospital was destroyed, which wasn’t destroyed, the situation is not caused by Israel. Iran and other nations going out of their way to use Palestinians as martyrs is a decision they made all on their own. Putting Israel in a situation where they need to kill some terrorists is not the fault of Israel. The world is making a conscious decision to ignore the fact that Hamas recently reiterated the fact that “civilians” dying is intentional and that it is honorable for those who are killed.
So we have Iran and other nations creating the situation. Then Hamas expanding on that by forcing “civilian” structures or areas to be bombed. Then blame it on Israel. It’s a perfectly dishonest situation. The fact that no one has any intention of dismantling the network propping up Hamas is all we need to know. The goal is to artificially create situations where Palestinians are killed by Israel and then blame Israel for doing it. Either people get mad at Israel or Israelis die. Either way it’s a win/win situation for the people pretending they don’t understand why or how the situation is being created.
Its not surprising you are seeing a massive wave of antisemitism spreading all around the world.
On November 08 2023 01:35 Mohdoo wrote: “uhhh uhhhh I am just saying Israel is bad! Because of colonies or whatever I forget, but long story short they are killing children”
Sounds like they have a good point
Even if someone buys into Israel's propaganda, they've shown nothing to remotely rationalize killing 4000+ children.
There's no reason to assume 4000 children have been killed. The numbers are not provided by a credible source, and in fact a source that has consistently been extremely dishonest. Can't just quote Hamas and pretend its worth taking seriously.
You should go take a look at earlier conflicts where israel and hamas both give casualty numbers and see if they significantly differ. Hint:they dont, and i saw the un state that the reason why they generally trust hamas numbers is they have a good track record in this regard. They differ from israel in who they regard as combatants, but not casualties, or even age of people killed.
What more is I dont understand why you are repeatedly choosing this hill. Your main argument is that hamas forces israel to kill civilians by fighting in areas where civilians are clustered. Why then is it hard to accept that lots of civilians die?
On November 08 2023 01:35 Mohdoo wrote: “uhhh uhhhh I am just saying Israel is bad! Because of colonies or whatever I forget, but long story short they are killing children”
Sounds like they have a good point
Even if someone buys into Israel's propaganda, they've shown nothing to remotely rationalize killing 4000+ children.
There's no reason to assume 4000 children have been killed. The numbers are not provided by a credible source, and in fact a source that has consistently been extremely dishonest. Can't just quote Hamas and pretend its worth taking seriously.
What difference to your position would it make if the real number was 1000, 10,000, 100,000?
Your insistence on attempting to rationalize Israel's ongoing massacre of innocent children seems independent of how many they kill.
On November 08 2023 01:35 Mohdoo wrote: “uhhh uhhhh I am just saying Israel is bad! Because of colonies or whatever I forget, but long story short they are killing children”
Sounds like they have a good point
Even if someone buys into Israel's propaganda, they've shown nothing to remotely rationalize killing 4000+ children.
There's no reason to assume 4000 children have been killed. The numbers are not provided by a credible source, and in fact a source that has consistently been extremely dishonest. Can't just quote Hamas and pretend its worth taking seriously.
What difference to your position would it make if the real number was 1000, 10,000, 100,000?
Your insistence on attempting to rationalize Israel's ongoing massacre of innocent children seems independent of how many they kill.
His point is that you shouldn't trust numbers coming from Hamas. The hospital case which destroyed US peace talks was total bullshit. Hamas lied about who do it. They lied about what got hit. They lied about how many died. Hamas will gladly lie about numbers and have proven to do so in this very conflict.
The better point is that Israel is not committing the massacre. Hamas has set up the Trolley problem for Israel and Israel has been forced into a position of throwing the switch or not. They've chosen to throw the switch. All these deaths are the fault of Hamas.
On November 07 2023 23:37 MaGic~PhiL wrote: What is annoying me the most is.. otherwise sane and honest people just acting as if "being for less suffering and more freedom for Palestine, and civilians of the area" equates to "being pro hamas"
Honestly flabbergasted how normally solid intellectuals (David Deutsch, Sam Harris come to mind) either fail to make that distinction or are completely intellectually dishonest..
Whoever feels in this conflict that Isreal is 100% to blame and "evil" and vice versa Palestine/Hamas is 100% to blame and "evil" is either completely biased and dishonest or a fucking moron.
Also what angers me is the lack of JEWS/BIG NAMES openly criticising Israel/the goverment/Nethanjau/the overall horrible policy the last couple of decades..
(I know they exist but they are few and far between..)
Being from Germany has its downsides regarding certain historical topics but I will NEVER accept how unreal dumb it is that for basically 70 years + now "critique of Isreal" equates to "antisemitsm"
Fuck that logic. I wont accept it one bit.
You complain about "critique of Israel" not being "antisemitism" in the exact same post that you are angry at JEWS for not openly criticizing the Israeli government, as if they had anything to do with Israel. Should the king Jew go out and declare Israel wrong? Perhaps they should deactivate their space lasers?
Do all Muslims need to apologize for and condemn Hamas? Or is it that most Muslims have nothing to do with Hamas and don't need to make a statement at all?
On November 08 2023 01:35 Mohdoo wrote: “uhhh uhhhh I am just saying Israel is bad! Because of colonies or whatever I forget, but long story short they are killing children”
Sounds like they have a good point
Even if someone buys into Israel's propaganda, they've shown nothing to remotely rationalize killing 4000+ children.
There's no reason to assume 4000 children have been killed. The numbers are not provided by a credible source, and in fact a source that has consistently been extremely dishonest. Can't just quote Hamas and pretend its worth taking seriously.
What difference to your position would it make if the real number was 1000, 10,000, 100,000?
Your insistence on attempting to rationalize Israel's ongoing massacre of innocent children seems independent of how many they kill.
The better point is that Israel is not committing the massacre. Hamas has set up the Trolley problem for Israel and Israel has been forced into a position of throwing the switch or not. They've chosen to throw the switch. All these deaths are the fault of Hamas.
On November 08 2023 01:35 Mohdoo wrote: “uhhh uhhhh I am just saying Israel is bad! Because of colonies or whatever I forget, but long story short they are killing children”
Sounds like they have a good point
Even if someone buys into Israel's propaganda, they've shown nothing to remotely rationalize killing 4000+ children.
There's no reason to assume 4000 children have been killed. The numbers are not provided by a credible source, and in fact a source that has consistently been extremely dishonest. Can't just quote Hamas and pretend its worth taking seriously.
What difference to your position would it make if the real number was 1000, 10,000, 100,000?
Your insistence on attempting to rationalize Israel's ongoing massacre of innocent children seems independent of how many they kill.
The better point is that Israel is not committing the massacre. Hamas has set up the Trolley problem for Israel and Israel has been forced into a position of throwing the switch or not. They've chosen to throw the switch. All these deaths are the fault of Hamas.
So they are committing the massacre.
Your read of the Trolley problem is that the person should never throw the switch? That's a new take. The whole point of the problem is that it is an unsolvable one. The situation is awful and the person at the switch is not at fault for bad circumstances no matter what he chooses.
In real life, if you know who keeps sending trolleys at occupied tracks, you can put the blame squarely on them. That's Hamas. Hamas needs to stop sending trolleys down the track and Israel is finally going after the source of the trolleys, but Hamas won't go out without sending some last trolleys at innocent Palestinians.
On November 08 2023 01:35 Mohdoo wrote: “uhhh uhhhh I am just saying Israel is bad! Because of colonies or whatever I forget, but long story short they are killing children”
Sounds like they have a good point
Even if someone buys into Israel's propaganda, they've shown nothing to remotely rationalize killing 4000+ children.
There's no reason to assume 4000 children have been killed. The numbers are not provided by a credible source, and in fact a source that has consistently been extremely dishonest. Can't just quote Hamas and pretend its worth taking seriously.
What difference to your position would it make if the real number was 1000, 10,000, 100,000?
Your insistence on attempting to rationalize Israel's ongoing massacre of innocent children seems independent of how many they kill.
The better point is that Israel is not committing the massacre. Hamas has set up the Trolley problem for Israel and Israel has been forced into a position of throwing the switch or not. They've chosen to throw the switch. All these deaths are the fault of Hamas.
So they are committing the massacre.
Your read of the Trolley problem is that the person should never throw the switch? That's a new take. The whole point of the problem is that it is an unsolvable one. The situation is awful and the person at the switch is not at fault for bad circumstances no matter what he chooses.
In real life, if you know who keeps sending trolleys at occupied tracks, you can put the blame squarely on them. That's Hamas. Hamas needs to stop sending trolleys down the track and Israel is finally going after the source of the trolleys, but Hamas won't go out without sending some last trolleys at innocent Palestinians.
I'm sorry I'm a little hazy on trolley problems I guess what happens if you don't throw the switch?
On November 08 2023 01:35 Mohdoo wrote: “uhhh uhhhh I am just saying Israel is bad! Because of colonies or whatever I forget, but long story short they are killing children”
Sounds like they have a good point
Even if someone buys into Israel's propaganda, they've shown nothing to remotely rationalize killing 4000+ children.
There's no reason to assume 4000 children have been killed. The numbers are not provided by a credible source, and in fact a source that has consistently been extremely dishonest. Can't just quote Hamas and pretend its worth taking seriously.
I also have no reason to believe that less than 4000 have been killed. Israel has been dropping apartment complex after apartment complex, dozens per day for the last month, while cutting food and water supplies. Quite frankly I'd be surprised if less than 4000 have been directly or indirectly killed so far.
Hamas are shit, Israel isn't that much better at this point, but they have about 1000x the military value, so one side gets bombed to shit.
And yes, I agree that it's a real life trolley problem.
EPT
