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Norway28701 Posts
I don't know how it's been elsewhere but in Norway, one month ago, the left and far left both immediately jumped to 'we entirely condemn Hamas' atrocious terrorist act.' Most commentators I saw even said that 'we say this without any qualifiers, because nothing about Israel's occupation or treatment of the palestinians warrants this'. There were voices that said stuff like 'while we condemn the terrorist attack, it's inevitable that the occupation would lead to acts like these', but the 'no qualifiers' crowd was louder and more numerous.
Then, gradually, over the past month, these same people have become more and more critical of Israel. It's not because of some inherent antisemitism that makes them default towards an anti-Israel position, it's because they're anti atrocities and anti civilian suffering and they first saw Hamas as the cause, because they were, and now see the Israeli response as a cause, because it is.
And here, aside from the far right, mostly everyone has joined in on condemning stuff like the blockade or ordering a million people to move in 24 hours, and urging that humanitarian aid must be allowed to enter and be distributed. Now, Israel hasn't ended up committing the worst atrocities it threatened to commit - but I'm guessing international pressure should get at least some credit.
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On November 08 2023 03:55 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2023 03:44 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 03:38 RenSC2 wrote:On November 08 2023 03:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 08 2023 02:24 Mohdoo wrote:On November 08 2023 01:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 08 2023 01:39 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 01:35 Mohdoo wrote:
“uhhh uhhhh I am just saying Israel is bad! Because of colonies or whatever I forget, but long story short they are killing children” Sounds like they have a good point Even if someone buys into Israel's propaganda, they've shown nothing to remotely rationalize killing 4000+ children. There's no reason to assume 4000 children have been killed. The numbers are not provided by a credible source, and in fact a source that has consistently been extremely dishonest. Can't just quote Hamas and pretend its worth taking seriously. What difference to your position would it make if the real number was 1000, 10,000, 100,000? Your insistence on attempting to rationalize Israel's ongoing massacre of innocent children seems independent of how many they kill. The better point is that Israel is not committing the massacre. Hamas has set up the Trolley problem for Israel and Israel has been forced into a position of throwing the switch or not. They've chosen to throw the switch. All these deaths are the fault of Hamas. So they are committing the massacre. Your read of the Trolley problem is that the person should never throw the switch? That's a new take. The whole point of the problem is that it is an unsolvable one. The situation is awful and the person at the switch is not at fault for bad circumstances no matter what he chooses. In real life, if you know who keeps sending trolleys at occupied tracks, you can put the blame squarely on them. That's Hamas. Hamas needs to stop sending trolleys down the track and Israel is finally going after the source of the trolleys, but Hamas won't go out without sending some last trolleys at innocent Palestinians. If you want to use the trolley analogy. Israel is purposefully choosing the track with the most people on it to run over.
That is not how the trolley problem is supposed to be solved...
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On November 08 2023 04:00 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2023 03:55 RenSC2 wrote:On November 08 2023 03:44 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 03:38 RenSC2 wrote:On November 08 2023 03:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 08 2023 02:24 Mohdoo wrote:On November 08 2023 01:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 08 2023 01:39 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 01:35 Mohdoo wrote:
“uhhh uhhhh I am just saying Israel is bad! Because of colonies or whatever I forget, but long story short they are killing children” Sounds like they have a good point Even if someone buys into Israel's propaganda, they've shown nothing to remotely rationalize killing 4000+ children. There's no reason to assume 4000 children have been killed. The numbers are not provided by a credible source, and in fact a source that has consistently been extremely dishonest. Can't just quote Hamas and pretend its worth taking seriously. What difference to your position would it make if the real number was 1000, 10,000, 100,000? Your insistence on attempting to rationalize Israel's ongoing massacre of innocent children seems independent of how many they kill. The better point is that Israel is not committing the massacre. Hamas has set up the Trolley problem for Israel and Israel has been forced into a position of throwing the switch or not. They've chosen to throw the switch. All these deaths are the fault of Hamas. So they are committing the massacre. Your read of the Trolley problem is that the person should never throw the switch? That's a new take. The whole point of the problem is that it is an unsolvable one. The situation is awful and the person at the switch is not at fault for bad circumstances no matter what he chooses. In real life, if you know who keeps sending trolleys at occupied tracks, you can put the blame squarely on them. That's Hamas. Hamas needs to stop sending trolleys down the track and Israel is finally going after the source of the trolleys, but Hamas won't go out without sending some last trolleys at innocent Palestinians. I'm sorry I'm a little hazy on trolley problems I guess what happens if you don't throw the switch?
Sorry I'm used to Twitter where it's faster to ask than to look for myself, so I went and looked.
In a trolley problem, someone launches a trolley and you have an option A and an option B, where the option A is worse than option B. You have the option to divert the trolley from A to B, but then the outcome B is your responsibility because you had direct impact on where the trolley went. The question is then, do you get to choose that outcome B is better than outcome A.
Here are some differences between what Israel is doing and a trolley problem:
- Outcome B is worse than outcome A. Way more people are dying when we pull the lever. The difference is that those people aren't humans.
- There is nobody on track A. This isn't "Some people are going to die as a direct consequence of my inaction". If you didn't do this act, nobody would die as a consequence. The Israeli people were on the track earlier, they are already dead, we can't save them by diverting the trolley into Gaza. Your only option is to decide if the trolley kills other people or if it doesn't.
- Diverting the trolley doesn't stop Hamas from launching other trolleys in the future. We've pulled the trolley numerous times in the past and that hasn't stopped people from dying on the next track A.
- We have a seething hatred of the people on track B, and we want to steal their land from them. It would be beneficial to our goals if the trolley went on track B. In fact, before Hamas launched its trolley we were already mistreating and killing people on track B recreationally.
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On November 08 2023 04:27 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I don't know how it's been elsewhere but in Norway, one month ago, the left and far left both immediately jumped to 'we entirely condemn Hamas' atrocious terrorist act.' Most commentators I saw even said that 'we say this without any qualifiers, because nothing about Israel's occupation or treatment of the palestinians warrants this'. There were voices that said stuff like 'while we condemn the terrorist attack, it's inevitable that the occupation would lead to acts like these', but the 'no qualifiers' crowd was louder and more numerous.
Then, gradually, over the past month, these same people have become more and more critical of Israel. It's not because of some inherent antisemitism that makes them default towards an anti-Israel position, it's because they're anti atrocities and anti civilian suffering and they first saw Hamas as the cause, because they were, and now see the Israeli response as a cause, because it is.
And here, aside from the far right, mostly everyone has joined in on condemning stuff like the blockade or ordering a million people to move in 24 hours, and urging that humanitarian aid must be allowed to enter and be distributed. Now, Israel hasn't ended up committing the worst atrocities it threatened to commit - but I'm guessing international pressure should get at least some credit.
Hamas is still the cause because the terror attack isn't over yet. They still hold the hostages. Israel has been very clear that nothing is over until that is resolved. Last couple of days there has been more hints (heavier emphasis) on that a cease fire comes after the hostages are released. I think one of the first statements was to the effect that a ground invasion was the only chance to free them, even if it was slim.
You can't expect a country to just abandon it's weakest citizens to terrorists after such an attack.
I suspect that the answer every politician that tries to get Israel to agree to a cease fire is "sure, talk to Hamas and get them to release everyone unconditionally and we'll talk". And there is really no response to that.
Hamas is still the cause, and the ball is firmly in their court. And until they decide to kick it (which they won't, dead civilians is good for their cause, the more the better) Israel will tear Gaza apart looking for their people.
And no, negotiations with terrorists is not the solution. This terror attack was so horrible it would leave a permanent scar in any country. If you just let it pass, and then reward the terrorists by releasing all Hamas members or something similar and come next election the guy who proposed nuking Gaza is going to be running it instead of being out on the bench.
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On November 08 2023 04:00 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2023 03:55 RenSC2 wrote:On November 08 2023 03:44 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 03:38 RenSC2 wrote:On November 08 2023 03:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 08 2023 02:24 Mohdoo wrote:On November 08 2023 01:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 08 2023 01:39 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 01:35 Mohdoo wrote:
“uhhh uhhhh I am just saying Israel is bad! Because of colonies or whatever I forget, but long story short they are killing children” Sounds like they have a good point Even if someone buys into Israel's propaganda, they've shown nothing to remotely rationalize killing 4000+ children. There's no reason to assume 4000 children have been killed. The numbers are not provided by a credible source, and in fact a source that has consistently been extremely dishonest. Can't just quote Hamas and pretend its worth taking seriously. What difference to your position would it make if the real number was 1000, 10,000, 100,000? Your insistence on attempting to rationalize Israel's ongoing massacre of innocent children seems independent of how many they kill. The better point is that Israel is not committing the massacre. Hamas has set up the Trolley problem for Israel and Israel has been forced into a position of throwing the switch or not. They've chosen to throw the switch. All these deaths are the fault of Hamas. So they are committing the massacre. Your read of the Trolley problem is that the person should never throw the switch? That's a new take. The whole point of the problem is that it is an unsolvable one. The situation is awful and the person at the switch is not at fault for bad circumstances no matter what he chooses. In real life, if you know who keeps sending trolleys at occupied tracks, you can put the blame squarely on them. That's Hamas. Hamas needs to stop sending trolleys down the track and Israel is finally going after the source of the trolleys, but Hamas won't go out without sending some last trolleys at innocent Palestinians. I'm sorry I'm a little hazy on trolley problems I guess what happens if you don't throw the switch?
The traditional trolley problem is that there are 5 people tied to a track and one person tied to an alternative track. A trolley is bearing down on the 5 people and will kill them. You happen to be standing next to a switch that would send the trolley down the alternative track, but then you'd be "responsible" for killing the one person while saving the 5. If you don't, you didn't take any "responsibility", but you let 5 people die. Should you throw the switch?
More generally, it's a question of "if you have the power, what is your responsibility?" Are you culpable for the deaths of the 5 if you choose to do nothing? Are you to blame for the death of the one if you choose to throw the switch? Most people choose to throw the switch and kill the one to save the 5 and consider it the more ethical option.
But then the problem becomes, what number is okay? If it's 2 on the track and 1 on the alternative track is it still okay? Or even, if it's one person on each track, is it okay to throw the switch? Either way, one person dies. Are you to blame for that person dying by throwing the switch? Are you to blame by doing nothing? There are also variations around you knowing people on one track or the other and how that plays a part.
No matter the numbers, the trolley problem is an ethics question where you're forced to choose who lives and who dies. My answer will always be that the situation is at fault, not the person who finds themselves next to the switch. Whoever tied those people to the tracks and sent a trolley deserves the blame and the person at the switch is faultless, no matter their choice.
If we apply it to Israel vs Hamas. Hamas is tying people to both tracks (direct attack on Israeli civilians on the main track, blending into the Palestinian civilians on the alternative track) and sending the trolleys. Therefore, I blame Hamas for all the deaths on both sides. Israel is at the switch and they've chosen to throw it. Admittedly, if Israel simply doesn't throw the switch, less people will probably die overall. Israel has chosen to care more about the people on the original track than the alternate track. Still, I cannot fault them for protecting their own and going after the people who keep tying innocents to the tracks. The fault will always be Hamas's for creating the situation.
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On November 08 2023 04:45 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2023 04:00 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 03:55 RenSC2 wrote:On November 08 2023 03:44 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 03:38 RenSC2 wrote:On November 08 2023 03:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 08 2023 02:24 Mohdoo wrote:On November 08 2023 01:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 08 2023 01:39 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 01:35 Mohdoo wrote:
“uhhh uhhhh I am just saying Israel is bad! Because of colonies or whatever I forget, but long story short they are killing children” Sounds like they have a good point Even if someone buys into Israel's propaganda, they've shown nothing to remotely rationalize killing 4000+ children. There's no reason to assume 4000 children have been killed. The numbers are not provided by a credible source, and in fact a source that has consistently been extremely dishonest. Can't just quote Hamas and pretend its worth taking seriously. What difference to your position would it make if the real number was 1000, 10,000, 100,000? Your insistence on attempting to rationalize Israel's ongoing massacre of innocent children seems independent of how many they kill. The better point is that Israel is not committing the massacre. Hamas has set up the Trolley problem for Israel and Israel has been forced into a position of throwing the switch or not. They've chosen to throw the switch. All these deaths are the fault of Hamas. So they are committing the massacre. Your read of the Trolley problem is that the person should never throw the switch? That's a new take. The whole point of the problem is that it is an unsolvable one. The situation is awful and the person at the switch is not at fault for bad circumstances no matter what he chooses. In real life, if you know who keeps sending trolleys at occupied tracks, you can put the blame squarely on them. That's Hamas. Hamas needs to stop sending trolleys down the track and Israel is finally going after the source of the trolleys, but Hamas won't go out without sending some last trolleys at innocent Palestinians. I'm sorry I'm a little hazy on trolley problems I guess what happens if you don't throw the switch? Sorry I'm used to Twitter where it's faster to ask than to look for myself, so I went and looked. In a trolley problem, someone launches a trolley and you have an option A and an option B, where the option A is worse than option B. You have the option to divert the trolley from A to B, but then the outcome B is your responsibility because you had direct impact on where the trolley went. The question is then, do you get to choose that outcome B is better than outcome A. Here are some differences between what Israel is doing and a trolley problem: - Outcome B is worse than outcome A. Way more people are dying when we pull the lever. The difference is that those people aren't humans. - There is nobody on track A. This isn't "Some people are going to die as a direct consequence of my inaction". If you didn't do this act, nobody would die as a consequence. The Israeli people were on the track earlier, they are already dead, we can't save them by diverting the trolley into Gaza. Your only option is to decide if the trolley kills other people or if it doesn't. - Diverting the trolley doesn't stop Hamas from launching other trolleys in the future. We've pulled the trolley numerous times in the past and that hasn't stopped people from dying on the next track A. - We have a seething hatred of the people on track B, and we want to steal their land from them. It would be beneficial to our goals if the trolley went on track B. In fact, before Hamas launched its trolley we were already mistreating and killing people on track B recreationally.
People will die if nothing is done. Hamas said they will repeat attacks like October 7 in the future, and we have every reason to assume that is true. So if Israel simply ignored the attack entirely, the attacks would continue until all Israelis are dead. This is what Hamas themselves directly said. They have clearly stated that the only condition Hamas will accept for stopping their attacks is for the entirety of Israel to no longer exist. All Israelis dead is their condition for stopping their attacks. We have every reason to assume they are being truthful. So yes, people are going to die even if Israel ignores the attack entirely.
That is the big thing that everyone loves to ignore. Israeli civilians will die if nothing is done. So there is not a solution which does not lead to anyone dying. Is there another option I am not aware of?
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Norway28701 Posts
By the logic that more dead civilians is good for Hamas, the expectation that military action will lead to the release of the hostages is at best incoherent.
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On November 08 2023 05:04 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2023 04:45 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 04:00 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 03:55 RenSC2 wrote:On November 08 2023 03:44 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 03:38 RenSC2 wrote:On November 08 2023 03:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 08 2023 02:24 Mohdoo wrote:On November 08 2023 01:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 08 2023 01:39 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Sounds like they have a good point Even if someone buys into Israel's propaganda, they've shown nothing to remotely rationalize killing 4000+ children. There's no reason to assume 4000 children have been killed. The numbers are not provided by a credible source, and in fact a source that has consistently been extremely dishonest. Can't just quote Hamas and pretend its worth taking seriously. What difference to your position would it make if the real number was 1000, 10,000, 100,000? Your insistence on attempting to rationalize Israel's ongoing massacre of innocent children seems independent of how many they kill. The better point is that Israel is not committing the massacre. Hamas has set up the Trolley problem for Israel and Israel has been forced into a position of throwing the switch or not. They've chosen to throw the switch. All these deaths are the fault of Hamas. So they are committing the massacre. Your read of the Trolley problem is that the person should never throw the switch? That's a new take. The whole point of the problem is that it is an unsolvable one. The situation is awful and the person at the switch is not at fault for bad circumstances no matter what he chooses. In real life, if you know who keeps sending trolleys at occupied tracks, you can put the blame squarely on them. That's Hamas. Hamas needs to stop sending trolleys down the track and Israel is finally going after the source of the trolleys, but Hamas won't go out without sending some last trolleys at innocent Palestinians. I'm sorry I'm a little hazy on trolley problems I guess what happens if you don't throw the switch? Sorry I'm used to Twitter where it's faster to ask than to look for myself, so I went and looked. In a trolley problem, someone launches a trolley and you have an option A and an option B, where the option A is worse than option B. You have the option to divert the trolley from A to B, but then the outcome B is your responsibility because you had direct impact on where the trolley went. The question is then, do you get to choose that outcome B is better than outcome A. Here are some differences between what Israel is doing and a trolley problem: - Outcome B is worse than outcome A. Way more people are dying when we pull the lever. The difference is that those people aren't humans. - There is nobody on track A. This isn't "Some people are going to die as a direct consequence of my inaction". If you didn't do this act, nobody would die as a consequence. The Israeli people were on the track earlier, they are already dead, we can't save them by diverting the trolley into Gaza. Your only option is to decide if the trolley kills other people or if it doesn't. - Diverting the trolley doesn't stop Hamas from launching other trolleys in the future. We've pulled the trolley numerous times in the past and that hasn't stopped people from dying on the next track A. - We have a seething hatred of the people on track B, and we want to steal their land from them. It would be beneficial to our goals if the trolley went on track B. In fact, before Hamas launched its trolley we were already mistreating and killing people on track B recreationally. People will die if nothing is done. Hamas said they will repeat attacks like October 7 in the future, and we have every reason to assume that is true. So if Israel simply ignored the attack entirely, the attacks would continue until all Israelis are dead. This is what Hamas themselves directly said. They have clearly stated that the only condition Hamas will accept for stopping their attacks is for the entirety of Israel to no longer exist. All Israelis dead is their condition for stopping their attacks. We have every reason to assume they are being truthful. So yes, people are going to die even if Israel ignores the attack entirely. That is the big thing that everyone loves to ignore. Israeli civilians will die if nothing is done. So there is not a solution which does not lead to anyone dying. Is there another option I am not aware of?
"There will be another trolley in the future" is not morally the same as "you didn't pull the lever". It's not a direct consequence.
There is nothing about putting the trolley on track B that changes any of what you said regarding Hamas. All of that is still true. The only difference is that a bunch more people are dead.
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On November 08 2023 05:07 Liquid`Drone wrote:
By the logic that more dead civilians is good for Hamas, the expectation that military action will lead to the release of the hostages is at best incoherent.
Yes, I think many of us would agree that Hamas has generally flawed perspectives. But here we are, suffering from their problems because Iran and Qatar love the idea of Hamas killing Israelis.
However, we have words directly from Hamas's mouth indicating they view all Palestinians, whether "civilian" or otherwise, as martyrs, and they prove it with their actions. They actively create situations where they know the outcome will be Palestinian civilians dying when they otherwise would not have. So they say it, then do it, and then they go on to explain all Palestinian lives that are lost in pursuit of wiping out Jews is a net-positive and that these civilians die honorable deaths.
And since Muslim nations have indicated they will militarily intervene if some kind of line is crossed regarding Israel's involvement in Gaza, it sounds like they are receiving feedback that their plan might work. I doubt it, because I think Iran and Lebanon understand those carrier groups will flatten them if they try anything.
Hamas are essentially just accelerationists. They want this war to happen and they believe Palestinians dying is a great way to work towards it.
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Norway28701 Posts
So attacking Gaza is basically playing into Hamas' hands?
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On November 08 2023 05:11 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2023 05:04 Mohdoo wrote:On November 08 2023 04:45 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 04:00 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 03:55 RenSC2 wrote:On November 08 2023 03:44 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 03:38 RenSC2 wrote:On November 08 2023 03:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 08 2023 02:24 Mohdoo wrote:On November 08 2023 01:55 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Even if someone buys into Israel's propaganda, they've shown nothing to remotely rationalize killing 4000+ children. There's no reason to assume 4000 children have been killed. The numbers are not provided by a credible source, and in fact a source that has consistently been extremely dishonest. Can't just quote Hamas and pretend its worth taking seriously. What difference to your position would it make if the real number was 1000, 10,000, 100,000? Your insistence on attempting to rationalize Israel's ongoing massacre of innocent children seems independent of how many they kill. The better point is that Israel is not committing the massacre. Hamas has set up the Trolley problem for Israel and Israel has been forced into a position of throwing the switch or not. They've chosen to throw the switch. All these deaths are the fault of Hamas. So they are committing the massacre. Your read of the Trolley problem is that the person should never throw the switch? That's a new take. The whole point of the problem is that it is an unsolvable one. The situation is awful and the person at the switch is not at fault for bad circumstances no matter what he chooses. In real life, if you know who keeps sending trolleys at occupied tracks, you can put the blame squarely on them. That's Hamas. Hamas needs to stop sending trolleys down the track and Israel is finally going after the source of the trolleys, but Hamas won't go out without sending some last trolleys at innocent Palestinians. I'm sorry I'm a little hazy on trolley problems I guess what happens if you don't throw the switch? Sorry I'm used to Twitter where it's faster to ask than to look for myself, so I went and looked. In a trolley problem, someone launches a trolley and you have an option A and an option B, where the option A is worse than option B. You have the option to divert the trolley from A to B, but then the outcome B is your responsibility because you had direct impact on where the trolley went. The question is then, do you get to choose that outcome B is better than outcome A. Here are some differences between what Israel is doing and a trolley problem: - Outcome B is worse than outcome A. Way more people are dying when we pull the lever. The difference is that those people aren't humans. - There is nobody on track A. This isn't "Some people are going to die as a direct consequence of my inaction". If you didn't do this act, nobody would die as a consequence. The Israeli people were on the track earlier, they are already dead, we can't save them by diverting the trolley into Gaza. Your only option is to decide if the trolley kills other people or if it doesn't. - Diverting the trolley doesn't stop Hamas from launching other trolleys in the future. We've pulled the trolley numerous times in the past and that hasn't stopped people from dying on the next track A. - We have a seething hatred of the people on track B, and we want to steal their land from them. It would be beneficial to our goals if the trolley went on track B. In fact, before Hamas launched its trolley we were already mistreating and killing people on track B recreationally. People will die if nothing is done. Hamas said they will repeat attacks like October 7 in the future, and we have every reason to assume that is true. So if Israel simply ignored the attack entirely, the attacks would continue until all Israelis are dead. This is what Hamas themselves directly said. They have clearly stated that the only condition Hamas will accept for stopping their attacks is for the entirety of Israel to no longer exist. All Israelis dead is their condition for stopping their attacks. We have every reason to assume they are being truthful. So yes, people are going to die even if Israel ignores the attack entirely. That is the big thing that everyone loves to ignore. Israeli civilians will die if nothing is done. So there is not a solution which does not lead to anyone dying. Is there another option I am not aware of? "There will be another trolley in the future" is not morally the same as "you didn't pull the lever". It's not a direct consequence. There is nothing about putting the trolley on track B that changes any of what you said regarding Hamas. All of that is still true. The only difference is that a bunch more people are dead.
You are advocating for people assuming Hamas attacks won't happen in the future. That is not reasonable. You can't just toss an unsubstantiated "yeah but maybe not" to the situation when they've already done it before and they have expressed intent to do it again. They have the intentions, the history, and the tools to do it again. It is clearly reasonable to assume leaving Hamas alone will lead to Israelis dying.
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On November 08 2023 05:23 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2023 05:11 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 05:04 Mohdoo wrote:On November 08 2023 04:45 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 04:00 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 03:55 RenSC2 wrote:On November 08 2023 03:44 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 03:38 RenSC2 wrote:On November 08 2023 03:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 08 2023 02:24 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
There's no reason to assume 4000 children have been killed. The numbers are not provided by a credible source, and in fact a source that has consistently been extremely dishonest. Can't just quote Hamas and pretend its worth taking seriously. What difference to your position would it make if the real number was 1000, 10,000, 100,000? Your insistence on attempting to rationalize Israel's ongoing massacre of innocent children seems independent of how many they kill. The better point is that Israel is not committing the massacre. Hamas has set up the Trolley problem for Israel and Israel has been forced into a position of throwing the switch or not. They've chosen to throw the switch. All these deaths are the fault of Hamas. So they are committing the massacre. Your read of the Trolley problem is that the person should never throw the switch? That's a new take. The whole point of the problem is that it is an unsolvable one. The situation is awful and the person at the switch is not at fault for bad circumstances no matter what he chooses. In real life, if you know who keeps sending trolleys at occupied tracks, you can put the blame squarely on them. That's Hamas. Hamas needs to stop sending trolleys down the track and Israel is finally going after the source of the trolleys, but Hamas won't go out without sending some last trolleys at innocent Palestinians. I'm sorry I'm a little hazy on trolley problems I guess what happens if you don't throw the switch? Sorry I'm used to Twitter where it's faster to ask than to look for myself, so I went and looked. In a trolley problem, someone launches a trolley and you have an option A and an option B, where the option A is worse than option B. You have the option to divert the trolley from A to B, but then the outcome B is your responsibility because you had direct impact on where the trolley went. The question is then, do you get to choose that outcome B is better than outcome A. Here are some differences between what Israel is doing and a trolley problem: - Outcome B is worse than outcome A. Way more people are dying when we pull the lever. The difference is that those people aren't humans. - There is nobody on track A. This isn't "Some people are going to die as a direct consequence of my inaction". If you didn't do this act, nobody would die as a consequence. The Israeli people were on the track earlier, they are already dead, we can't save them by diverting the trolley into Gaza. Your only option is to decide if the trolley kills other people or if it doesn't. - Diverting the trolley doesn't stop Hamas from launching other trolleys in the future. We've pulled the trolley numerous times in the past and that hasn't stopped people from dying on the next track A. - We have a seething hatred of the people on track B, and we want to steal their land from them. It would be beneficial to our goals if the trolley went on track B. In fact, before Hamas launched its trolley we were already mistreating and killing people on track B recreationally. People will die if nothing is done. Hamas said they will repeat attacks like October 7 in the future, and we have every reason to assume that is true. So if Israel simply ignored the attack entirely, the attacks would continue until all Israelis are dead. This is what Hamas themselves directly said. They have clearly stated that the only condition Hamas will accept for stopping their attacks is for the entirety of Israel to no longer exist. All Israelis dead is their condition for stopping their attacks. We have every reason to assume they are being truthful. So yes, people are going to die even if Israel ignores the attack entirely. That is the big thing that everyone loves to ignore. Israeli civilians will die if nothing is done. So there is not a solution which does not lead to anyone dying. Is there another option I am not aware of? "There will be another trolley in the future" is not morally the same as "you didn't pull the lever". It's not a direct consequence. There is nothing about putting the trolley on track B that changes any of what you said regarding Hamas. All of that is still true. The only difference is that a bunch more people are dead. You are advocating for people assuming Hamas attacks won't happen in the future. That is not reasonable. You can't just toss an unsubstantiated "yeah but maybe not" to the situation when they've already done it before and they have expressed intent to do it again. They have the intentions, the history, and the tools to do it again. It is clearly reasonable to assume leaving Hamas alone will lead to Israelis dying.
Hamas will definitely attack again in the future. You're, in my opinion intentionally, misreading what I said.
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On November 08 2023 05:07 Liquid`Drone wrote:
By the logic that more dead civilians is good for Hamas, the expectation that military action will lead to the release of the hostages is at best incoherent.
I completely agree with you. The military pressure and civilian suffering is unlikely to phase Hamas and finding the hostages is like finding the needle in the haystack.
Still, politically and morally I think it's impossible to not try right now.
And also if people around the world were shouting "release the hostages" instead of "river to coast" maybe the situation would have already been resolved.
I'd prefer it if Israel just quit trying based on minimising casualties and suffering but I 100 % understand that they won't and why that is. And I don't think telling them to abandon their people when there is the option to tell the other side to release the hostages is in any way a valid argument.
With Hamas loving the current situation and the rest of the world not doing much to stop that or even playing into their hands I have extremely low confidence of this not getting worse.
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On November 08 2023 05:20 Liquid`Drone wrote:
So attacking Gaza is basically playing into Hamas' hands?
Sure, phrase it however you'd like. Hamas has indicated their job is not done until all Jews are dead. If Israel does nothing, Israelis die. If Israel does something, Israelis die. It is almost like Israel is not the one defining the boundary conditions of the situation and Hamas is the issue.
This whole pacifism thing would be a lot more reasonable if Hamas did not recently kill 1300 people, still have hostages, and indicate they plan to do this all again. The mistake you are making is pretending there is a situation where Hamas stops killing Israelis while Israelis are still alive.
Hamas is assuming their allies are just as insane as they are and that they will decide to engage in direct military conflict with the US. That is where their logic falls apart. Iran and Lebanon both intend to continue existing and as such will not step over the US's line they've drawn. Hamas sees dying in pursuit of killing Jews as a jolly good time worthy of any amount of attention folks can afford to spend on it. Iran likes to talk big, but they and Lebanon are not as enthusiastic about dying. Hamas is wrong, and Israel knows that, which is why Israel is not playing into their hand. Hamas are not rational actors.
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On November 08 2023 05:26 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2023 05:23 Mohdoo wrote:On November 08 2023 05:11 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 05:04 Mohdoo wrote:On November 08 2023 04:45 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 04:00 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 03:55 RenSC2 wrote:On November 08 2023 03:44 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 03:38 RenSC2 wrote:On November 08 2023 03:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
What difference to your position would it make if the real number was 1000, 10,000, 100,000?
Your insistence on attempting to rationalize Israel's ongoing massacre of innocent children seems independent of how many they kill. The better point is that Israel is not committing the massacre. Hamas has set up the Trolley problem for Israel and Israel has been forced into a position of throwing the switch or not. They've chosen to throw the switch. All these deaths are the fault of Hamas. So they are committing the massacre. Your read of the Trolley problem is that the person should never throw the switch? That's a new take. The whole point of the problem is that it is an unsolvable one. The situation is awful and the person at the switch is not at fault for bad circumstances no matter what he chooses. In real life, if you know who keeps sending trolleys at occupied tracks, you can put the blame squarely on them. That's Hamas. Hamas needs to stop sending trolleys down the track and Israel is finally going after the source of the trolleys, but Hamas won't go out without sending some last trolleys at innocent Palestinians. I'm sorry I'm a little hazy on trolley problems I guess what happens if you don't throw the switch? Sorry I'm used to Twitter where it's faster to ask than to look for myself, so I went and looked. In a trolley problem, someone launches a trolley and you have an option A and an option B, where the option A is worse than option B. You have the option to divert the trolley from A to B, but then the outcome B is your responsibility because you had direct impact on where the trolley went. The question is then, do you get to choose that outcome B is better than outcome A. Here are some differences between what Israel is doing and a trolley problem: - Outcome B is worse than outcome A. Way more people are dying when we pull the lever. The difference is that those people aren't humans. - There is nobody on track A. This isn't "Some people are going to die as a direct consequence of my inaction". If you didn't do this act, nobody would die as a consequence. The Israeli people were on the track earlier, they are already dead, we can't save them by diverting the trolley into Gaza. Your only option is to decide if the trolley kills other people or if it doesn't. - Diverting the trolley doesn't stop Hamas from launching other trolleys in the future. We've pulled the trolley numerous times in the past and that hasn't stopped people from dying on the next track A. - We have a seething hatred of the people on track B, and we want to steal their land from them. It would be beneficial to our goals if the trolley went on track B. In fact, before Hamas launched its trolley we were already mistreating and killing people on track B recreationally. People will die if nothing is done. Hamas said they will repeat attacks like October 7 in the future, and we have every reason to assume that is true. So if Israel simply ignored the attack entirely, the attacks would continue until all Israelis are dead. This is what Hamas themselves directly said. They have clearly stated that the only condition Hamas will accept for stopping their attacks is for the entirety of Israel to no longer exist. All Israelis dead is their condition for stopping their attacks. We have every reason to assume they are being truthful. So yes, people are going to die even if Israel ignores the attack entirely. That is the big thing that everyone loves to ignore. Israeli civilians will die if nothing is done. So there is not a solution which does not lead to anyone dying. Is there another option I am not aware of? "There will be another trolley in the future" is not morally the same as "you didn't pull the lever". It's not a direct consequence. There is nothing about putting the trolley on track B that changes any of what you said regarding Hamas. All of that is still true. The only difference is that a bunch more people are dead. You are advocating for people assuming Hamas attacks won't happen in the future. That is not reasonable. You can't just toss an unsubstantiated "yeah but maybe not" to the situation when they've already done it before and they have expressed intent to do it again. They have the intentions, the history, and the tools to do it again. It is clearly reasonable to assume leaving Hamas alone will lead to Israelis dying. Hamas will definitely attack again in the future. You're, in my opinion intentionally, misreading what I said.
So if Hamas will definitely attack again, is it fair to say Israelis will definitely die? What are you saying isn't a guarantee? So long as it is guaranteed, there is no break down of the trolley problem. The trolley problem points out that so long as death is guaranteed, the only choice is who dies. If you agree the attacks are guaranteed, and you agree Israeli deaths are guaranteed, that means it is accurate to point out someone dies regardless of what Israel decides to do.
The fact that Israel's decision making is irrelevant when determining whether or not people will die should make people wonder if maybe there is a better solution somewhere out there. It should make people wonder if someone else's decision making could have more of an impact as to whether or not people die. Maybe Hamas has that choice. And maybe nations supporting Hamas have a choice whether or not they facilitate Hamas's goals.
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On November 08 2023 05:33 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2023 05:26 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 05:23 Mohdoo wrote:On November 08 2023 05:11 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 05:04 Mohdoo wrote:On November 08 2023 04:45 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 04:00 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 03:55 RenSC2 wrote:On November 08 2023 03:44 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 03:38 RenSC2 wrote:
[quote]
The better point is that Israel is not committing the massacre. Hamas has set up the Trolley problem for Israel and Israel has been forced into a position of throwing the switch or not. They've chosen to throw the switch. All these deaths are the fault of Hamas. So they are committing the massacre. Your read of the Trolley problem is that the person should never throw the switch? That's a new take. The whole point of the problem is that it is an unsolvable one. The situation is awful and the person at the switch is not at fault for bad circumstances no matter what he chooses. In real life, if you know who keeps sending trolleys at occupied tracks, you can put the blame squarely on them. That's Hamas. Hamas needs to stop sending trolleys down the track and Israel is finally going after the source of the trolleys, but Hamas won't go out without sending some last trolleys at innocent Palestinians. I'm sorry I'm a little hazy on trolley problems I guess what happens if you don't throw the switch? Sorry I'm used to Twitter where it's faster to ask than to look for myself, so I went and looked. In a trolley problem, someone launches a trolley and you have an option A and an option B, where the option A is worse than option B. You have the option to divert the trolley from A to B, but then the outcome B is your responsibility because you had direct impact on where the trolley went. The question is then, do you get to choose that outcome B is better than outcome A. Here are some differences between what Israel is doing and a trolley problem: - Outcome B is worse than outcome A. Way more people are dying when we pull the lever. The difference is that those people aren't humans. - There is nobody on track A. This isn't "Some people are going to die as a direct consequence of my inaction". If you didn't do this act, nobody would die as a consequence. The Israeli people were on the track earlier, they are already dead, we can't save them by diverting the trolley into Gaza. Your only option is to decide if the trolley kills other people or if it doesn't. - Diverting the trolley doesn't stop Hamas from launching other trolleys in the future. We've pulled the trolley numerous times in the past and that hasn't stopped people from dying on the next track A. - We have a seething hatred of the people on track B, and we want to steal their land from them. It would be beneficial to our goals if the trolley went on track B. In fact, before Hamas launched its trolley we were already mistreating and killing people on track B recreationally. People will die if nothing is done. Hamas said they will repeat attacks like October 7 in the future, and we have every reason to assume that is true. So if Israel simply ignored the attack entirely, the attacks would continue until all Israelis are dead. This is what Hamas themselves directly said. They have clearly stated that the only condition Hamas will accept for stopping their attacks is for the entirety of Israel to no longer exist. All Israelis dead is their condition for stopping their attacks. We have every reason to assume they are being truthful. So yes, people are going to die even if Israel ignores the attack entirely. That is the big thing that everyone loves to ignore. Israeli civilians will die if nothing is done. So there is not a solution which does not lead to anyone dying. Is there another option I am not aware of? "There will be another trolley in the future" is not morally the same as "you didn't pull the lever". It's not a direct consequence. There is nothing about putting the trolley on track B that changes any of what you said regarding Hamas. All of that is still true. The only difference is that a bunch more people are dead. You are advocating for people assuming Hamas attacks won't happen in the future. That is not reasonable. You can't just toss an unsubstantiated "yeah but maybe not" to the situation when they've already done it before and they have expressed intent to do it again. They have the intentions, the history, and the tools to do it again. It is clearly reasonable to assume leaving Hamas alone will lead to Israelis dying. Hamas will definitely attack again in the future. You're, in my opinion intentionally, misreading what I said. So if Hamas will definitely attack again, is it fair to say Israelis will definitely die? What are you saying isn't a guarantee? So long as it is guaranteed, there is no break down of the trolley problem. The trolley problem points out that so long as death is guaranteed, the only choice is who dies. If you agree the attacks are guaranteed, and you agree Israeli deaths are guaranteed, that means it is accurate to point out someone dies regardless of what Israel decides to do. The fact that Israel's decision making is irrelevant when determining whether or not people will die should make people wonder if maybe there is a better solution somewhere out there. It should make people wonder if someone else's decision making could have more of an impact as to whether or not people die. Maybe Hamas has that choice. And maybe nations supporting Hamas have a choice whether or not they facilitate Hamas's goals.
In the trolley problem, when you divert the trolley, the people on track A don't die. Your choice to not do an action has a direct consequence.
In the real world, there is no connection between your decision of pulling the lever or not pulling the lever and the death of the next people who are going to die on track A. As you said yourself, they are going to die regardless. So therefore, the only thing that pulling the lever does is kill people on track B also.
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Norway28701 Posts
The 'numbers dead' is actually an, if not the essential component of the trolley problem. Then sometimes people make adjustments like 'but what if it's 5 85 year old nazis on one track and one saintly 20 year old woman poised to cure cancer on the other'. So phrasing this as a trolley problem basically necessitates one of two to justify 'pulling the lever': Either pulling the lever reduces the amount of people killed (and so far, reasonable people will agree that the retaliations has killed more than 5 times as many people than Hamas has killed in the past 15 years), or Israeli lives are worth more than Gazan lives. I can be on board with the notion that a) Israeli civilian lives are worth more than those of Hamas soldiers, and I can understand that Israel cares more about Israeli lives than they do about Palestinian lives, but myself, I don't think Isreali civilians are worth more than Palestinian civilians and no matter how you slice it and how you're going to calculate 'who is a combatant' and if you're gonna insist that Hamas is inflating the numbers, more Palestinian civilians have died than Israeli civilians.
Thus pulling the lever is not trolley-problem-justified.
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On November 08 2023 05:37 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2023 05:33 Mohdoo wrote:On November 08 2023 05:26 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 05:23 Mohdoo wrote:On November 08 2023 05:11 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 05:04 Mohdoo wrote:On November 08 2023 04:45 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 04:00 Nebuchad wrote:On November 08 2023 03:55 RenSC2 wrote:On November 08 2023 03:44 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
So they are committing the massacre. Your read of the Trolley problem is that the person should never throw the switch? That's a new take. The whole point of the problem is that it is an unsolvable one. The situation is awful and the person at the switch is not at fault for bad circumstances no matter what he chooses. In real life, if you know who keeps sending trolleys at occupied tracks, you can put the blame squarely on them. That's Hamas. Hamas needs to stop sending trolleys down the track and Israel is finally going after the source of the trolleys, but Hamas won't go out without sending some last trolleys at innocent Palestinians. I'm sorry I'm a little hazy on trolley problems I guess what happens if you don't throw the switch? Sorry I'm used to Twitter where it's faster to ask than to look for myself, so I went and looked. In a trolley problem, someone launches a trolley and you have an option A and an option B, where the option A is worse than option B. You have the option to divert the trolley from A to B, but then the outcome B is your responsibility because you had direct impact on where the trolley went. The question is then, do you get to choose that outcome B is better than outcome A. Here are some differences between what Israel is doing and a trolley problem: - Outcome B is worse than outcome A. Way more people are dying when we pull the lever. The difference is that those people aren't humans. - There is nobody on track A. This isn't "Some people are going to die as a direct consequence of my inaction". If you didn't do this act, nobody would die as a consequence. The Israeli people were on the track earlier, they are already dead, we can't save them by diverting the trolley into Gaza. Your only option is to decide if the trolley kills other people or if it doesn't. - Diverting the trolley doesn't stop Hamas from launching other trolleys in the future. We've pulled the trolley numerous times in the past and that hasn't stopped people from dying on the next track A. - We have a seething hatred of the people on track B, and we want to steal their land from them. It would be beneficial to our goals if the trolley went on track B. In fact, before Hamas launched its trolley we were already mistreating and killing people on track B recreationally. People will die if nothing is done. Hamas said they will repeat attacks like October 7 in the future, and we have every reason to assume that is true. So if Israel simply ignored the attack entirely, the attacks would continue until all Israelis are dead. This is what Hamas themselves directly said. They have clearly stated that the only condition Hamas will accept for stopping their attacks is for the entirety of Israel to no longer exist. All Israelis dead is their condition for stopping their attacks. We have every reason to assume they are being truthful. So yes, people are going to die even if Israel ignores the attack entirely. That is the big thing that everyone loves to ignore. Israeli civilians will die if nothing is done. So there is not a solution which does not lead to anyone dying. Is there another option I am not aware of? "There will be another trolley in the future" is not morally the same as "you didn't pull the lever". It's not a direct consequence. There is nothing about putting the trolley on track B that changes any of what you said regarding Hamas. All of that is still true. The only difference is that a bunch more people are dead. You are advocating for people assuming Hamas attacks won't happen in the future. That is not reasonable. You can't just toss an unsubstantiated "yeah but maybe not" to the situation when they've already done it before and they have expressed intent to do it again. They have the intentions, the history, and the tools to do it again. It is clearly reasonable to assume leaving Hamas alone will lead to Israelis dying. Hamas will definitely attack again in the future. You're, in my opinion intentionally, misreading what I said. So if Hamas will definitely attack again, is it fair to say Israelis will definitely die? What are you saying isn't a guarantee? So long as it is guaranteed, there is no break down of the trolley problem. The trolley problem points out that so long as death is guaranteed, the only choice is who dies. If you agree the attacks are guaranteed, and you agree Israeli deaths are guaranteed, that means it is accurate to point out someone dies regardless of what Israel decides to do. The fact that Israel's decision making is irrelevant when determining whether or not people will die should make people wonder if maybe there is a better solution somewhere out there. It should make people wonder if someone else's decision making could have more of an impact as to whether or not people die. Maybe Hamas has that choice. And maybe nations supporting Hamas have a choice whether or not they facilitate Hamas's goals. In the trolley problem, when you divert the trolley, the people on track A don't die. Your choice to not do an action has a direct consequence. In the real world, there is no connection between your decision of pulling the lever or not pulling the lever and the death of the next people who are going to die on track A. As you said yourself, they are going to die regardless. So therefore, the only thing that pulling the lever does is kill people on track B also.
Kind of. You are correct that the real world switch is not binary. It's not "A or B" in reality. However, the dismantling of Hamas's power base will greatly reduce the numbers of deaths on track A which is why Israel is throwing the switch to track B.
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On November 08 2023 05:45 Liquid`Drone wrote:
The 'numbers dead' is actually an, if not the essential component of the trolley problem. Then sometimes people make adjustments like 'but what if it's 5 85 year old nazis on one track and one saintly 20 year old woman poised to cure cancer on the other'. So phrasing this as a trolley problem basically necessitates one of two to justify 'pulling the lever': Either pulling the lever reduces the amount of people killed (and so far, reasonable people will agree that the retaliations has killed more than 5 times as many people than Hamas has killed in the past 15 years), or Israeli lives are worth more than Gazan lives. I can be on board with the notion that a) Israeli civilian lives are worth more than those of Hamas soldiers, and I can understand that Israel cares more about Israeli lives than they do about Palestinian lives, but myself, I don't think Isreali civilians are worth more than Palestinian civilians and no matter how you slice it and how you're going to calculate 'who is a combatant' and if you're gonna insist that Hamas is inflating the numbers, more Palestinian civilians have died than Israeli civilians.
Thus pulling the lever is not trolley-problem-justified.
Morally, my answer is to sidestep the initial question of the Trolley problem. The person at the lever is faultless, whether they pull it or not. There could be 1 person on track A and 1 million people on track B, I still won't fault them if they pull that lever. The blame falls squarely on the people who tied a million people to the track and then sent a trolley. The people who did that are Hamas.
Hamas is responsible for 4000 or 10000 or whatever the number of dead Palestinians right now. As soon as everyone accepts that Hamas is the one responsible, then there is a path forward.
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EPT
