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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9794 Posts
On November 10 2025 17:03 Nebuchad wrote: Maybe opening the post with "i dont give 3 fks about antisemitism or racism" was a clue. Haha right? I only replied because it seems like there's a gotcha coming and I'm curious what that will be | ||
KwarK
United States43752 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26463 Posts
On November 10 2025 12:52 aseq wrote: Guess you won't last long. Just wondering why the rage, if you're from Chile and the situation has nothing to do with you (or are you muslim?). Why is this conflict so much more interesting than any other conflict in the world? Why are jews so divisive and we need a separate word for hate against them? I'm not defending them, btw, just wondering why they generate so much emotion. Probably the support of the US is a big part of it. Then the matter of how asymmetric the conflict is, if it was a ‘fair fight’ so to speak, with a similar ability (rather than will) to commit atrocity on both sides, perceptions would likely be different. Then you’ve got the whole history and rationale for such a state in the first place, a sort of sense that if any people should know better from their own history to avoid pitfalls of oppression, Israelis would be right up there. Plus, Israel being a democracy and having a significant liberal tradition as well. To the degree that oppression in a theocracy, or civil war in a failed state is less ‘newsworthy’ because well, that’s just what happens in such scenarios. It is worth noting that at least in my neck of the woods (UK, Northern Ireland, Republic of Ireland), the wider conflict was much less prominent versus others worldwide prior to Israel’s response to October 7th. At least in terms of the more general public, it has been quite a prominent one amongst people who tend to being very into political activism on the regular. Would generally be reasons I’ve seen that this particular conflict gets a lot of attention. Outside of anti-Semitism of course, which is obviously a factor for some (probably many) too. My crude understanding for anti-Semitism being its own term is because one was needed I suppose. It’s not a wholly racial scourge, or an ethnic one, nor a religious one. Which makes sense, although it is of course lamentable that the term even has need of existing. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26463 Posts
On November 10 2025 17:11 KwarK wrote: “Fuck your money” was certainly a choice. In a way I find it kind of neat that I share a board/pseudo hobby with someone as famous as Kanye West | ||
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Billyboy
1584 Posts
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KwarK
United States43752 Posts
On November 11 2025 00:16 Billyboy wrote: Glad I'm not crazy then. I was into my pain killers and saw a one week ban for martyring. Which seemed crazy given the post and that his last post was a video of Osama Bin Laden saying he was going to kill everyone in the middle east that was not part of his religion and that the Jews had subjugated the US. I don't really ban for post content, just for basic TL rules violations. Any time anyone says "I don't care if you ban me for saying this" they automatically get a ban. Another mod can review the actual content of his post and decide whether to issue a ban for that, as a poster in this topic that is outside of my domain. So the 1 week wasn't for any of the vile shit he was saying about Jews, it was specifically for the martyring. | ||
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Billyboy
1584 Posts
On November 11 2025 00:21 KwarK wrote: I don't really ban for post content, just for basic TL rules violations. Any time anyone says "I don't care if you ban me for saying this" they automatically get a ban. Another mod can review the actual content of his post and decide whether to issue a ban for that, as a poster in this topic that is outside of my domain. So the 1 week wasn't for any of the vile shit he was saying about Jews, it was specifically for the martyring. Seems reasonable, I hope it gets looked at. Based on his two posts here I’d rather not interact with him about anything. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26463 Posts
Oddly enough I wasn’t exactly backed up on those instances by people who frequently invoke anti-Semitism in this thread. I mean which is it? | ||
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Billyboy
1584 Posts
On November 11 2025 06:13 WombaT wrote: I mean it’s pretty angry, but really I don’t think it’s any worse than posts like ‘Mossad killed Charlie Kirk and are coming for Candace Owens’ that I raised issues with and reported in other threads. Oddly enough I wasn’t exactly backed up on those instances by people who frequently invoke anti-Semitism in this thread. I mean which is it? JJR should be banned probably 100 times over. But yes I would have liked him to be actioned for that. I'm not sure what you mean by support. Why wouldn't I want that? These things you bring up are so strange and so wrong its odd you keep doing it. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26463 Posts
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mindjames
Israel433 Posts
Imagine thinking pro-Israelis take no issue with conspiracy theories about Mossad just because they reacted more passionately to an even more unhinged post. | ||
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Jankisa
Croatia1292 Posts
Conspiracies are mainstream now, are we also going to ban anyone who thinks that COVID was man made and released by China? How about anyone in the Russia thread who thinks that neo-Nazis rule Ukraine and CIA had bio-labs there? Are we also going to ban people who think that Putin is dead and we see his body double on the TV? How about banning anyone who thinks Epstein didn't kill himself? In the end, we'll get to a point, if we say ban JJ for believing this stupidity where you and I can get banned for saying that the IDF shoot at a camera crew with a tank round, I mean, IDF has a different story, they are the arbiters of truth there so going against that is conspiracy thinking, right? I think the Chilean guy getting a ban, be it martyring or the content is completely justified, the quality and tone of his post alone deserves it, not to mention a complete denial of Jewish culture and history, which we all know where it leads down to. But if he came with a long, structured post going into his crazy belief how history doesn't support this or that, I wouldn't ban him at all, same with JJ, he has a stupid view based on listening to a grifter, stupidity shouldn't be a bannable offense. | ||
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Yurie
12076 Posts
On November 11 2025 23:15 Jankisa wrote: First, I am obviously in a minority but I don't think that conspiracy riddled thinking and posting should get you banned, buying into stupid shit shouldn't be banned, otherwise half of USA wouldn't be able to post, given who they elected. Conspiracies are mainstream now, are we also going to ban anyone who thinks that COVID was man made and released by China? How about anyone in the Russia thread who thinks that neo-Nazis rule Ukraine and CIA had bio-labs there? Are we also going to ban people who think that Putin is dead and we see his body double on the TV? How about banning anyone who thinks Epstein didn't kill himself? In the end, we'll get to a point, if we say ban JJ for believing this stupidity where you and I can get banned for saying that the IDF shoot at a camera crew with a tank round, I mean, IDF has a different story, they are the arbiters of truth there so going against that is conspiracy thinking, right? I think the Chilean guy getting a ban, be it martyring or the content is completely justified, the quality and tone of his post alone deserves it, not to mention a complete denial of Jewish culture and history, which we all know where it leads down to. But if he came with a long, structured post going into his crazy belief how history doesn't support this or that, I wouldn't ban him at all, same with JJ, he has a stupid view based on listening to a grifter, stupidity shouldn't be a bannable offense. The fun part with a few of your examples is that you can disagree on them on a factual basis. Covid being man made is a maybe to me, released on purpose is a strong no. Center of release was a city doing research on the topic. Hard to conclusively prove natural cause with that as a baseline. Epstein killing himself is more likely than not to me. Evidence seems to point to him killing himself while the prison did normal prison stuff where none of the employees really care about doing their job to the letter which would have stopped it. Perhaps somebody was bribed to make it easier but even that is lacking in proof. It was very convenient for a lot of rich people, but that doesn't prove they did it. The main thing is if you are going to argue in a contested information sphere it needs to be nuanced and backed up by facts either way. While some of the other examples are in the moon landing is a hoax and the earth is flat area, which doesn't really have much ground to stand on and just wastes everyone's time. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6271 Posts
On October 27 2025 20:08 Jankisa wrote: There is not much there that has anything more then what West bank Palestinians don't have, just a different flavor of repression, and from everything I've read, less violent. Also, another thing that crossed my mind when reading this, China, in general is a police state for most of it's citizens, obviously not to the extent of what is being done to Uyughurs but way more then what Israel does to non-West bank Palestinian citizens. China being a police state in general isn't an argument in favour of your point. Israel's occupation does not take the form of a police state. It has no control over the education system, the press, or civil administration in area A and B. Their control is mostly in area C (largest by landmass but lowest by population), and overall security control of the West Bank. In area A and B that's primarily via frequent raids and checkpoints. You also, haven't really provided any evidence for what you wrote, yes, this city has all this, there is 12 million Uygurhs, going around and providing one article and extrapolating it to "no Uyghur who live a nice and stable life" is quite a leap, especially when you put it after an arrogant "you're wrong". In general you are trying to project some sort of "factually you are wrong" stance when you are obviously quite ignorant on this outside of "how can this guy say something I disagree with". The article is about Xinjiang as a whole. It uses Hotan as a case study. That's how articles like this are frequently structured. It specifically says so as well. If you want more evidence then there's a lot. China has locked up an estimated 0.9m - 1.8m in the detention camps [1] specifically targetting heads of households and community figures pushing their families into poverty, hundreds of thousands of their children are put into boarding schools and schools are transformed into prisons [2], up to half a million, most of them not detained, are in forced labour [3], birth control via intrauterine devices, sterilization and abortion is forced on hundreds of thousands [4]. That's on top of the 1.1 million government officials living with half of families and grid system as mentioned in the Economist article. Then there's the pomegrenate flower policy that does the same thing for children [5], forced labour where they're sent outside of Xinjiang, and the deaths inside the camps. All of which I could not find numbers for but which are significant. In one camp alone 150 detainees died in a period of 6 months [6]. Xinjiang spans over 1.6 million square kilometers, Uyghur dominated areas are about a quarter of that, still bigger then any European country. Average GDP for a Palestinian in 2024 according to IMF is $2,440. Average for Xinjiang is around $10,500. The size of Xinjiang is not relevant. I dont understand why you mention it. The statistics from the IMF are for the West Bank and Gaza [7]. The argument is specifically about the West Bank. It's also not adjusted for PPP. Aditionally, China has a huge rural/urban and Han/minority disparity. E.g. Hotans gdp per capita was 20k yuan[8] (approximately 2.8k USD) in 2023 compared to 74k [9](approximately 10.3k USD) for Xinjiang as a whole. Unless you can adjust for that using an average is meaningless. There is plenty of programs that aren't just incredibly repressive to Uyghurs, such as affirmative action that actually help them, there are plenty of Uyghurs who have a much better chance of a good life then Palestinians. And then there is the random and state sponsored violence and living under a military occupation. This is why I'd much rather be a Uyghur. Maybe I don't have a problem with saying fuck my religion or national identity, so it's easier for me to imagine having a better life, but it's very wrong to say "You're wrong" on saying that on average there are both who live normal lives and I'd like my chances in China more. Again, fuck the CCP for doing this shit, it's a slow roll Ethnic Cleansing and Cultural Genocide, too bad that people like you who attack me for saying it's not as bad as West Bank can't say the same about policies that Israel implements there. I dont see much of an argument to respond here. As to Israel and their violations in the West Bank I've been critical of it in this thread. It's a long thread and you were not there so it's not a surprise that you did not read it but I'm also not going to reiterate them. | ||
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stilt
France2754 Posts
On November 13 2025 13:31 RvB wrote: China being a police state in general isn't an argument in favour of your point. Israel's occupation does not take the form of a police state. It has no control over the education system, the press, or civil administration in area A and B. Their control is mostly in area C (largest by landmass but lowest by population), and overall security control of the West Bank. In area A and B that's primarily via frequent raids and checkpoints. The article is about Xinjiang as a whole. It uses Hotan as a case study. That's how articles like this are frequently structured. It specifically says so as well. If you want more evidence then there's a lot. China has locked up an estimated 0.9m - 1.8m in the detention camps [1] specifically targetting heads of households and community figures pushing their families into poverty, hundreds of thousands of their children are put into boarding schools and schools are transformed into prisons [2], up to half a million, most of them not detained, are in forced labour [3], birth control via intrauterine devices, sterilization and abortion is forced on hundreds of thousands [4]. That's on top of the 1.1 million government officials living with half of families and grid system as mentioned in the Economist article. Then there's the pomegrenate flower policy that does the same thing for children [5], forced labour where they're sent outside of Xinjiang, and the deaths inside the camps. All of which I could not find numbers for but which are significant. In one camp alone 150 detainees died in a period of 6 months [6]. The size of Xinjiang is not relevant. I dont understand why you mention it. The statistics from the IMF are for the West Bank and Gaza [7]. The argument is specifically about the West Bank. It's also not adjusted for PPP. Aditionally, China has a huge rural/urban and Han/minority disparity. E.g. Hotans gdp per capita was 20k yuan[8] (approximately 2.8k USD) in 2023 compared to 74k [9](approximately 10.3k USD) for Xinjiang as a whole. Unless you can adjust for that using an average is meaningless. I dont see much of an argument to respond here. As to Israel and their violations in the West Bank I've been critical of it in this thread. It's a long thread and you were not there so it's not a surprise that you did not read it but I'm also not going to reiterate them. It's a very weird post. Israel has the whole control over the west bank economy and has a puppet at the head of this administration who cooperates in the repression. How on earth Israel has no control there ? It's not all uyghurs neither just the elites who can escape, it's the ones who reject or accept to totally depoliticize their culture which is very close to the same. It is a political and cultural repression of a central state which can indeed be interpreted as colonial logics. This is what is asked for now not to palestinian citizen but to arabs israelis, the latter however are asked to leave. To be fair, the israeli far right who is gaining more and more traction asks the same to every arab israeli while "moderate" scholar are very ambiguous to say the very least. As for the obvious subtext of this discussion which is why caring for palestine and not the uyghur or others people, basically the good old whataboutism :. Here's what herzl, daddy of the zionism has to say : We... as representatives of Western civilization, would bring cleanliness, order and the well-distilled customs of the Occident." He presented palestine as "plague ridden" which will become then an "outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism." Herzl is presented as a "paternalist colonist" by scholar like edward saïd but this kind of speech belongs as well to a eugenistic thought. Since him, all the israeli leaders from Ben Gourion, Meier, Begin and of course "Bibi" as he is affectionately called there have constantly used this rhetoric of the "war of civilization" and has constantly ignated all the racists and supremacists dumbfucks who regreat the good old time where blacks, arabs and all other "inferior races" were subversient. The direct consequence is the diplomatic, economic and military support Israel is enjoying from the west against the palestinian population which China, the houthis and the belligerants in Sudan don't enjoy at all. And as to justify this, we are forced to align our views with Israel. Hence, we gave a academic censorships of almost all the western governements, as it is my field I can confirm france is very brutal about it and the judicial repression under false pretext. Furthermore, the extreme surveillance and control the palestinian population is subject to with the project Nimbus by amazon and google is what is awaiting us all as Palestine is a laboratory of the tool used to control us. It's not like alex karp of the surveillance society Palantir is making a secret of it. I hope this is the end of all the "whataboutism". | ||
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mindjames
Israel433 Posts
Israel has the whole control over the west bank economy Please substantiate. and has a puppet at the head of this administration who cooperates in the repression. A puppet in what way, and according to whom? Please substantiate. How on earth Israel has no control there ? Military control != administration in effect. Israel does not dictate how the PA governs itself as far as I'm aware. If you know something I don't, please share. This is what is asked for now not to palestinian citizen but to arabs israelis, the latter however are asked to leave. Arab Israelis are absolutely not asked to leave Israel, unless you know something I don't. There are racist Israelis that wish arabs weren't a part of society, as is the case with literally every multiethnic country or region in the world. Maybe you'd like to argue America is "asking" black people to leave? As for the obvious subtext of this discussion which is why caring for palestine and not the uyghur or others people, basically the good old whataboutism A whataboutism is when you deflect from the subject of discussion by attacking a different subject. But the subject of the current discussion is explicitly a comparison between these different conflicts and whether they merit the amount of focus each of them get. No one here is arguing that Israel is totally chill because there are worse things happening elsewhere. Here's what herzl, daddy of the zionism has to say : We... as representatives of Western civilization, would bring cleanliness, order and the well-distilled customs of the Occident." He presented palestine as "plague ridden" which will become then an "outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism." Ah, good old quote mining. What could he have meant by "plague-ridden"? Malaria was a major issue in Mandatory Palestine, having been attested as endemic to the region since the biblical period. In the early 20th century, multiple malaria epidemics resulted in widespread deaths. [...] However, a large-scale effort was undertaken by Zionist immigrants to drain the swamps, clear dense vegetation, and implement public health measures to defend against and suppress the mosquito population, transforming the previously uninhabitable areas into viable land for agriculture and settlement and eventually leading to the complete eradication of malaria in the region by the 1960s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaria_in_Mandatory_Palestine As for the rest of it, no shit, Herzl had Eurocentric opinions. We're talking about a European dude from the 1800s. I'd challenge you to find one thought leader of a major nationalistic or ideological movement - especially one from a different time - who doesn't sound even a little bigoted. It's not very reasonable to write off a movement or ideology because the guy who initially popularized it had opinions that you would oppose. And believe it or not, Zionism is not monolithic. Since him, all the israeli leaders from Ben Gourion, Meier, Begin and of course "Bibi" as he is affectionately called there have constantly used this rhetoric of the "war of civilization" and has constantly ignated all the racists and supremacists dumbfucks who regreat the good old time where blacks, arabs and all other "inferior races" were subversient. This is a gross misrepresentation of the history of the nation's politics, and honestly, I'm not sure where to start. While there have been issues with racism in Israeli society, and there have been leaders who have engaged in populism (I noticed you left out leaders like Rabin, Peres and Barak - curious!), those have been rather similar to - again - other multiethnic societies, or in the case of anti-Palestinian sentiment - comparable to other nations in conflict. Your generalizations show an attempt to smear rather than analyze, and are wholly unserious. Maybe if you can submit particular examples for us to look at and then build the case that Israel is some kind of a uniquely evil society, that'd be interesting to examine. Also, there is no common use in Israel of terms like "racial inferiority" or "subservience", and I don't believe there has been in the decades prior. It is simply not part of the national dialogue or media environment. The much more common thread is the one about separation of the two peoples (including or excluding population transfers), which is mostly popular on rightwing circles, and is politically regarded as unviable and extreme. This is further evident by the topic being left off the table, even by Israel's most extreme rightwing government to date. "Bibi" as he is affectionately called there Why do you say things when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about? It's just a nickname. It's used by everyone, including his biggest detractors, because it's easier than saying "Binyamin Netanyahu". Same for Bougie (Isaac Herzog) and Bogie (Moshe Ya'alon). These are just the names these people go by. The direct consequence is the diplomatic, economic and military support Israel is enjoying from the west against the palestinian population which China, the houthis and the belligerants in Sudan don't enjoy at all. And as to justify this, we are forced to align our views with Israel. Ah yes, because everyone in the US is so aligned on Israel! And in Europe, holy! There's so much forcing of alignment everywhere, yelled the billionth pro-Palestinian westerner. The fact that you would bring up enemies of the west and actual Iran-backed terror organizations among the groups you lament not getting help from the west, shows how clueless you are about geopolitics as a whole. This is unserious. Hence, we gave a academic censorships of almost all the western governements, as it is my field I can confirm france is very brutal about it and the judicial repression under false pretext. Furthermore, the extreme surveillance and control the palestinian population is subject to with the project Nimbus by amazon and google is what is awaiting us all as Palestine is a laboratory of the tool used to control us. It's not like alex karp of the surveillance society Palantir is making a secret of it. I'd like someone else to read this section and tell me if I'm having an aneurysm or this is just conspiracist rabbit-hole brain rot. | ||
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mindjames
Israel433 Posts
For anyone about to "well actually" me, please let me know first if you share the opinions of the above post, so I can know whether I should treat you as an honest interlocutor, or as someone who enjoys reading outrage memes on Twitter and considers it a good way to learn about the conflict. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26463 Posts
Stilt seems to have a certain myopia on the topic and disregards anything that might not be especially convenient to their overall conclusions. A problem can still exist without over-egging it on basically every level. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12421 Posts
On November 14 2025 00:47 mindjames wrote: It's funny, you can see how my patience gradually runs out as I go through his post. For anyone about to "well actually" me, please let me know first if you share the opinions of the above post, so I can know whether I should treat you as an honest interlocutor, or as someone who enjoys reading outrage memes on Twitter and considers it a good way to learn about the conflict. I don't see a ton of opinions in the above post, but in the broad lines I think it describes facts in a way that is similar to how I would describe them, it's pretty good. So I'm letting you know that. | ||
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mindjames
Israel433 Posts
On November 14 2025 01:36 Nebuchad wrote: I don't see a ton of opinions in the above post, but in the broad lines I think it describes facts in a way that is similar to how I would describe them, it's pretty good. So I'm letting you know that. Brave! So to recap, you think: * Israel directly controls the economy of the west bank * Abbas is an Israeli puppet * The Israeli government is actively asking Arab Israelis to leave * Herzl was alluding to Arabs when he said the area is "plague-ridden" * Israeli leaders have historically garnered support by promising to make blacks, arabs and all other "inferior races" "subservient" * People in the west are "forced" to align with the pro-Israeli side * The support Israel gets from the west is for the purpose of combating "the Palestinian population" * It is unfair that Israel is being aided by the west while the literal enemies of the west, as well as groups it classifies as terrorist, are not enjoying the same treatment * And my favorite: "the extreme surveillance and control the palestinian population is subject to with the project Nimbus by amazon and google is what is awaiting us all as Palestine is a laboratory of the tool used to control us" Is that the case? At which point in reading that post did you go "man, this guy's cooking"? | ||
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