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United States43918 Posts
On July 21 2025 00:48 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2025 00:28 Nebuchad wrote:
Kwark does this to everyone, it's how he gets to feel superior. It doesn't absolve you from making correct points. No, he doesn't do this to everyone. Absolutely not. He has favorite targets. See his above comment. I never defended the Wehrmacht, and when KwarK claimed that I did, literally everyone in the thread disagreed with him. To this day he brings this point up and lies about what I actually said. He also repeatedly accused me of being a Nazi sympathizer, and he also insinuated that my grandparents are/were Nazis.
My recollection is that I suggested your absolute refusal to believe in the historical fact of Wehrmacht participation in genocide might be to do with a family connection to someone who served on the Eastern Front and an emotional inability to disconnect your idea of that person with the crimes that took place.
At which point if my recollection serves you immediately lost your shit, started screaming, crying, and shitting yourself simultaneously, while all caps posting about how dare I talk shit about your Opa Adolf. Paraphrasing of course but in any case your reaction didn’t do much to disprove my theory.
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On July 21 2025 00:54 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2025 00:48 Magic Powers wrote:On July 21 2025 00:28 Nebuchad wrote:
Kwark does this to everyone, it's how he gets to feel superior. It doesn't absolve you from making correct points. No, he doesn't do this to everyone. Absolutely not. He has favorite targets. See his above comment. I never defended the Wehrmacht, and when KwarK claimed that I did, literally everyone in the thread disagreed with him. To this day he brings this point up and lies about what I actually said. He also repeatedly accused me of being a Nazi sympathizer, and he also insinuated that my grandparents are/were Nazis. My recollection is that I suggested your absolute refusal to believe in the historical fact of Wehrmacht participation in genocide might be to do with a family connection to someone who served on the Eastern Front and an emotional inability to disconnect your idea of that person with the crimes that took place. At which point of my recollection serves you immediately lost your shit, started screaming, crying, and shitting yourself simultaneously, while all caps posting about how dare I talk shit about your Opa Adolf. Paraphrasing of course but in any case your reaction didn’t do much to disprove my theory.
"Opa Adolf". There it is.
It's so blatant what you're really doing, KwarK. You can stop lying.
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Lol, that has to count as a warning for Kwark
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United States43918 Posts
It’s just a theory about why you’d be so invested in Nazi apologism. And honestly it’s quite a generous theory, there are far worse reasons that someone could deny the crimes of the Wehrmacht than love for a grandparent.
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On July 21 2025 01:01 KwarK wrote:
It’s just a theory about why you’d be so invested in Nazi apologism. And honestly it’s quite a generous theory, there are far worse reasons that someone could deny the crimes of the Wehrmacht than love for a grandparent.
"It's just a theory" that warrants you bullying me for years and years and years. Nobody's buying your shit, KwarK. You're the worst person in this whole forum.
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"Your grandparents were nazi war criminals but I mean that in a nice way" is potentially the silliest thing I've read on here since I last read one of blackjack's posts this morning.
You guys are trying to be ridiculous, right?
Following up with "Hey I was trying to be nice, I only said it because you are obviously a nazi apologist"
*Chef's kiss*
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United States43918 Posts
On July 21 2025 01:02 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2025 01:01 KwarK wrote:
It’s just a theory about why you’d be so invested in Nazi apologism. And honestly it’s quite a generous theory, there are far worse reasons that someone could deny the crimes of the Wehrmacht than love for a grandparent. "It's just a theory" that warrants you bullying me for years and years and years. Nobody's buying your shit, KwarK. You're the worst person in this whole forum.
You: "The Wehrmacht did nothing wrong"
Me: "They absolutely did and most people who deny this are neo-Nazis"
You: "No they didn't"
Me: "It's possible that based on your heritage and family connections your refusal to accept this basic historical fact is driven by an emotional connection rather than Nazism"
You: "KwarK is bullying everyone on this forum"
You'll note that despite your insistence that I do this to everyone there is a 100% overlap between posters who promote the myth of the Clean Wehrmacht and posters who I accuse of promoting the myth of the Clean Wehrmacht.
In any case, speculating that it was due to the family connection was the generous interpretation. And also, and again I'm paraphrasing, was also entirely correct. MP did subsequently admit that I got it right, that Opa was there.
Edit: That said, if he really does want to make it clear that he's not a Nazi apologist for the good reason and that his Nazi apologism is entirely due to the bad reason that is, of course, his prerogative.
Edit2: Or he could even say that he'd subsequently looked into it and it turns out that the Wehrmacht was actively involved in the mass genocide of Slavs and others on the Eastern Front and that large numbers of the Wehrmacht were complicit, even though there were very few convictions after the war. There's always the option to just say that. People who don't promote the Clean Wehrmacht myth can say that.
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I wonder if the people who "had no way of knowing what was happening" in WW2 were as full of shit as the people who have no way of knowing what's happening today are.
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On July 21 2025 01:09 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2025 01:02 Magic Powers wrote:On July 21 2025 01:01 KwarK wrote:
It’s just a theory about why you’d be so invested in Nazi apologism. And honestly it’s quite a generous theory, there are far worse reasons that someone could deny the crimes of the Wehrmacht than love for a grandparent. "It's just a theory" that warrants you bullying me for years and years and years. Nobody's buying your shit, KwarK. You're the worst person in this whole forum. You: "The Wehrmacht did nothing wrong" Me: "They absolutely did and most people who deny this are neo-Nazis" You: "No they didn't" Me: "It's possible that based on your heritage and family connections your refusal to accept this basic historical fact is driven by an emotional connection rather than Nazism" You: "KwarK is bullying everyone on this forum" You'll note that despite your insistence that I do this to everyone there is a 100% overlap between posters who promote the myth of the Clean Wehrmacht and posters who I accuse of promoting the myth of the Clean Wehrmacht. In any case, speculating that it was due to the family connection was the generous interpretation. And also, and again I'm paraphrasing, was also entirely correct. MP did subsequently admit that I got it right, that Opa was there. Edit: That said, if he really does want to make it clear that he's not a Nazi apologist for the good reason and that his Nazi apologism is entirely due to the bad reason that is, of course, his prerogative. Edit2: Or he could even say that he'd subsequently looked into it and it turns out that the Wehrmacht was actively involved in the mass genocide of Slavs and others on the Eastern Front and that large numbers of the Wehrmacht were complicit, even though there were very few convictions after the war. There's always the option to just say that. People who don't promote the Clean Wehrmacht myth can say that.
You could also just shut the fuck up once. Every time someone else loses their shit because of the awful way you are posting, instead of taking the win you so obviously crave you just go on. MPs argument was silly, you kept making it worse and worse and worse.
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United States43918 Posts
On July 21 2025 01:20 Nebuchad wrote:I wonder if the people who "had no way of knowing what was happening" in WW2 were as full of shit as the people who have no way of knowing what's happening today are.
There were escapees from death camps pretty early on and their accounts made it to the West.
For example Abraham (Jakub) Krzepicki escaped Treblinka and described the layout, operations, function etc. of the camp in 1942.
The Polish government in exile received reports and provided them to the BBC who broadcast a program detailing the Holocaust. It was common knowledge. Millions of Germans had first hand knowledge of parts of it, the death camps were located close to rail hubs and major cities, the possessions of murdered Jews were sold throughout Germany, it was understood that the people who went to the camps were not coming back.
That said, there are millions of Americans who can't find the United States on a map of the world so the degree to which anything can be called common knowledge is somewhat debatable. But in so much as anyone knows anything, Germans in WW2 knew about the Holocaust.
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United States43918 Posts
We need a multinational peacekeeping/administration force yesterday, the day before, and every day before that for decades but the realist in me says that we'll never get one.
Even the pro-Palestinian nations like Ireland have done the calculation and concluded that they don't think Gazans are worth a drop of Irish blood.
The world turns and nothing gets better. We hope for a ceasefire as if decades of ceasefire isn't how things got as bad as they are. Even our hopes are that things continue to get worse, but more slowly.
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On July 21 2025 02:08 KwarK wrote:+ Show Spoiler +We need a multinational peacekeeping/administration force yesterday, the day before, and every day before that for decades but the realist in me says that we'll never get one.
Even the pro-Palestinian nations like Ireland have done the calculation and concluded that they don't think Gazans are worth a drop of Irish blood.
The world turns and nothing gets better. We hope for a ceasefire as if decades of ceasefire isn't how things got as bad as they are. Even our hopes are that things continue to get worse, but more slowly.
You sure you're not a Democrat? 
Making things better is hard, but not aiding and abetting genocide is relatively easy. We need to make that the reality in the ostensibly democratic countries we live in.
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On July 21 2025 02:15 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2025 02:08 KwarK wrote:+ Show Spoiler +We need a multinational peacekeeping/administration force yesterday, the day before, and every day before that for decades but the realist in me says that we'll never get one.
Even the pro-Palestinian nations like Ireland have done the calculation and concluded that they don't think Gazans are worth a drop of Irish blood.
The world turns and nothing gets better. We hope for a ceasefire as if decades of ceasefire isn't how things got as bad as they are. Even our hopes are that things continue to get worse, but more slowly. You sure you're not a Democrat? Making things better is hard, but not aiding and abetting genocide is relatively easy. We need to make that the reality in the ostensibly democratic countries we live in.
We're reaching the point in the UK where you can be arrested for even politely asking for the government to stop supporting Israel.
In the encounter, which she filmed, one officer told her: “Mentioning freedom of Gaza, Israel, genocide, all of that all come under proscribed groups, which are terror groups that have been dictated by the government.”
He went on to say that the phrase “Free Gaza” was “supportive of Palestine Action”, adding it was an offence “to express an opinion or belief that is supportive of a proscribed organisation, namely Palestine Action is an offence under section 12(1A) of the Terrorism Act”. The officer told her she had committed that offence.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/17/armed-police-threatened-to-arrest-kent-protester-for-holding-palestinian-flag
Not surprising since the Israel lobby in the UK was so easily able to get rid of a socialist Labour leader and replace him with the current one.
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Northern Ireland26643 Posts
On July 21 2025 02:08 KwarK wrote:We need a multinational peacekeeping/administration force yesterday, the day before, and every day before that for decades but the realist in me says that we'll never get one. Even the pro-Palestinian nations like Ireland have done the calculation and concluded that they don't think Gazans are worth a drop of Irish blood. The world turns and nothing gets better. We hope for a ceasefire as if decades of ceasefire isn't how things got as bad as they are. Even our hopes are that things continue to get worse, but more slowly.
I’m not sure that particular calculation has been made in Pro-Palestinian countries. Such a role simply isn’t on the table to reject in the first place.
There is a certain lack of enthusiasm for peacekeeping operations, even in somewhere like Ireland but a lot of that comes from being not given the remit to well, keep the peace. You get to stand largely on the periphery of things and lose some soldiers, maybe to Hamas, maybe this time to Hezbollah, or hey maybe it’s the IDF, variety and the spice of life and all that. Indeed, there’s an argument that peacekeeping presence in certain areas just frees up IDF resources.
I was listening to a podcast with the bloke who used to command the Irish peacekeeping contingent in the region, and those kinda things were my big takeaways.
I do 100% agree that peacekeepers/administrators with some kind of teeth and authority would be a vast, vast improvement on the status quo.
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On July 21 2025 03:06 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2025 02:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 21 2025 02:08 KwarK wrote:+ Show Spoiler +We need a multinational peacekeeping/administration force yesterday, the day before, and every day before that for decades but the realist in me says that we'll never get one.
Even the pro-Palestinian nations like Ireland have done the calculation and concluded that they don't think Gazans are worth a drop of Irish blood.
The world turns and nothing gets better. We hope for a ceasefire as if decades of ceasefire isn't how things got as bad as they are. Even our hopes are that things continue to get worse, but more slowly. You sure you're not a Democrat? Making things better is hard, but not aiding and abetting genocide is relatively easy. We need to make that the reality in the ostensibly democratic countries we live in. We're reaching the point in the UK where you can be arrested for even politely asking for the government to stop supporting Israel. Show nested quote +In the encounter, which she filmed, one officer told her: “Mentioning freedom of Gaza, Israel, genocide, all of that all come under proscribed groups, which are terror groups that have been dictated by the government.”
He went on to say that the phrase “Free Gaza” was “supportive of Palestine Action”, adding it was an offence “to express an opinion or belief that is supportive of a proscribed organisation, namely Palestine Action is an offence under section 12(1A) of the Terrorism Act”. The officer told her she had committed that offence. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/17/armed-police-threatened-to-arrest-kent-protester-for-holding-palestinian-flagNot surprising since the Israel lobby in the UK was so easily able to get rid of a socialist Labour leader and replace him with the current one.
*shocked pikachu face* from those of us that have been critical of UK's policing of speech that it has slippery sloped its way to arresting people for criticizing Israel.
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On July 21 2025 03:16 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2025 02:08 KwarK wrote:We need a multinational peacekeeping/administration force yesterday, the day before, and every day before that for decades but the realist in me says that we'll never get one. Even the pro-Palestinian nations like Ireland have done the calculation and concluded that they don't think Gazans are worth a drop of Irish blood. The world turns and nothing gets better. We hope for a ceasefire as if decades of ceasefire isn't how things got as bad as they are. Even our hopes are that things continue to get worse, but more slowly. I’m not sure that particular calculation has been made in Pro-Palestinian countries. Such a role simply isn’t on the table to reject in the first place. There is a certain lack of enthusiasm for peacekeeping operations, even in somewhere like Ireland but a lot of that comes from being not given the remit to well, keep the peace. You get to stand largely on the periphery of things and lose some soldiers, maybe to Hamas, maybe this time to Hezbollah, or hey maybe it’s the IDF, variety and the spice of life and all that. Indeed, there’s an argument that peacekeeping presence in certain areas just frees up IDF resources. I was listening to a podcast with the bloke who used to command the Irish peacekeeping contingent in the region, and those kinda things were my big takeaways. I do 100% agree that peacekeepers/administrators with some kind of teeth and authority would be a vast, vast improvement on the status quo.
Agreed and agree that there would need to be the proper authority to keep the peace. We saw how toothless the Irish operation was in Lebanon. The question is - are there countries that are ready to send their troops into an urban environment with a massive tunnel network and actually conduct counterterrorism operations? I am not convinced - considering that even the "pro-Palestine" countries have done absolutely nothing to help the Palestinians at all in two years.
The only real possibility imo is that Arab countries step up and take over administration of Gaza at least for a time. It would be nice for these countries to actually show that they care about Palestinians as a people and not as a political tool. Then there would need to be a campaign of deradicalization combined with investment and rebuilding of the place. I think the IDF would need to be responsible for security in this case. This seems the most likely scenario to me.
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On July 21 2025 01:09 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2025 01:02 Magic Powers wrote:On July 21 2025 01:01 KwarK wrote:
It’s just a theory about why you’d be so invested in Nazi apologism. And honestly it’s quite a generous theory, there are far worse reasons that someone could deny the crimes of the Wehrmacht than love for a grandparent. "It's just a theory" that warrants you bullying me for years and years and years. Nobody's buying your shit, KwarK. You're the worst person in this whole forum. You: "The Wehrmacht did nothing wrong" Me: "They absolutely did and most people who deny this are neo-Nazis" You: "No they didn't" Me: "It's possible that based on your heritage and family connections your refusal to accept this basic historical fact is driven by an emotional connection rather than Nazism" You: "KwarK is bullying everyone on this forum" You'll note that despite your insistence that I do this to everyone there is a 100% overlap between posters who promote the myth of the Clean Wehrmacht and posters who I accuse of promoting the myth of the Clean Wehrmacht. In any case, speculating that it was due to the family connection was the generous interpretation. And also, and again I'm paraphrasing, was also entirely correct. MP did subsequently admit that I got it right, that Opa was there. Edit: That said, if he really does want to make it clear that he's not a Nazi apologist for the good reason and that his Nazi apologism is entirely due to the bad reason that is, of course, his prerogative. Edit2: Or he could even say that he'd subsequently looked into it and it turns out that the Wehrmacht was actively involved in the mass genocide of Slavs and others on the Eastern Front and that large numbers of the Wehrmacht were complicit, even though there were very few convictions after the war. There's always the option to just say that. People who don't promote the Clean Wehrmacht myth can say that.
Except I never said anything of that sort, and every single person sided against you. To this day you don't care that you were outnumbered 10:1. You are the only one. Literally the only one. Nobody agreed with you.
That is the mark of a narcissist who can't handle the truth.
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On July 21 2025 03:50 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2025 03:06 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 21 2025 02:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 21 2025 02:08 KwarK wrote:+ Show Spoiler +We need a multinational peacekeeping/administration force yesterday, the day before, and every day before that for decades but the realist in me says that we'll never get one.
Even the pro-Palestinian nations like Ireland have done the calculation and concluded that they don't think Gazans are worth a drop of Irish blood.
The world turns and nothing gets better. We hope for a ceasefire as if decades of ceasefire isn't how things got as bad as they are. Even our hopes are that things continue to get worse, but more slowly. You sure you're not a Democrat? Making things better is hard, but not aiding and abetting genocide is relatively easy. We need to make that the reality in the ostensibly democratic countries we live in. We're reaching the point in the UK where you can be arrested for even politely asking for the government to stop supporting Israel. In the encounter, which she filmed, one officer told her: “Mentioning freedom of Gaza, Israel, genocide, all of that all come under proscribed groups, which are terror groups that have been dictated by the government.”
He went on to say that the phrase “Free Gaza” was “supportive of Palestine Action”, adding it was an offence “to express an opinion or belief that is supportive of a proscribed organisation, namely Palestine Action is an offence under section 12(1A) of the Terrorism Act”. The officer told her she had committed that offence. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/17/armed-police-threatened-to-arrest-kent-protester-for-holding-palestinian-flagNot surprising since the Israel lobby in the UK was so easily able to get rid of a socialist Labour leader and replace him with the current one. *shocked pikachu face* from those of us that have been critical of UK's policing of speech that it has slippery sloped its way to arresting people for criticizing Israel.
It's not a slippery slope. If you want to make speech in opposition to genocide illegal, you don't have to make speech in favor of racism illegal first.
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On July 21 2025 03:50 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2025 03:06 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 21 2025 02:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 21 2025 02:08 KwarK wrote:+ Show Spoiler +We need a multinational peacekeeping/administration force yesterday, the day before, and every day before that for decades but the realist in me says that we'll never get one.
Even the pro-Palestinian nations like Ireland have done the calculation and concluded that they don't think Gazans are worth a drop of Irish blood.
The world turns and nothing gets better. We hope for a ceasefire as if decades of ceasefire isn't how things got as bad as they are. Even our hopes are that things continue to get worse, but more slowly. You sure you're not a Democrat? Making things better is hard, but not aiding and abetting genocide is relatively easy. We need to make that the reality in the ostensibly democratic countries we live in. We're reaching the point in the UK where you can be arrested for even politely asking for the government to stop supporting Israel. In the encounter, which she filmed, one officer told her: “Mentioning freedom of Gaza, Israel, genocide, all of that all come under proscribed groups, which are terror groups that have been dictated by the government.”
He went on to say that the phrase “Free Gaza” was “supportive of Palestine Action”, adding it was an offence “to express an opinion or belief that is supportive of a proscribed organisation, namely Palestine Action is an offence under section 12(1A) of the Terrorism Act”. The officer told her she had committed that offence. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/17/armed-police-threatened-to-arrest-kent-protester-for-holding-palestinian-flagNot surprising since the Israel lobby in the UK was so easily able to get rid of a socialist Labour leader and replace him with the current one. *shocked pikachu face* from those of us that have been critical of UK's policing of speech that it has slippery sloped its way to arresting people for criticizing Israel.
What you have mostly been critical about is things like that woman telling a bunch of people rioting outside a hotel of asylum seekers to set fire to the hotel, which they then went and tried to do. That's the equivalent of shouting fire in a theatre or other obvious examples of speech that needs policing for public safety reasons.
That's not even remotely similar to arresting someone for holding a 'free gaza' sign. The way we got to b had absolutely nothing to do with a.
This is actually less to do with free speech laws and more to do with anti-terrorism laws being incredibly badly applied by the government.
The decision to proscribe Palestine Action as a terrorist group was reached after they broke into an army base and painted an aeroplane.
They have never planned or executed a terrorist attack, but the government simply doesn't like the pro-Palestine message because it was Israel who put Starmer where he is.
Therefore, by applying these anti-terror laws to Palestine Action, any speech that 'supports' Palestine Action becomes illegal because you are supporting a terror group. Because they aren't a terror group, but one that simply conveys the pro-Palestine message, any pro-Palestine speech can now be interpreted by idiot cops as illegal.
I don't think it would ever make it through the courts because its obviously bullshit.
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