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Agreeing with one thing and disagreeing with another to give the illusion of balance isn't 'nuance'.
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Northern Ireland25159 Posts
On July 18 2025 01:54 Jockmcplop wrote:
Agreeing with one thing and disagreeing with another to give the illusion of balance isn't 'nuance'.
Edit - NVM
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On July 18 2025 01:54 Jockmcplop wrote:
Agreeing with one thing and disagreeing with another to give the illusion of balance isn't 'nuance'.
Understanding that not everything is black and white and that there may be multiple reasons why people and nations act the way they do (especially in a place as complex as the Middle East) is exactly what nuance is.
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On July 18 2025 01:51 RJGooner wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2025 22:28 Jankisa wrote:
It's not hard to categorize people on this issue, you might think of yourself as neutral but your instincts are, every time, be it because of your media diet or inherent biases to, after some new developments like this one happen come here and provide explanations for Israel's actions that frame them as pragmatic and reasonable.
It's a pattern, another pattern is that you get very annoyed when people point this out.
My speculation is that's because deep down you feel that you are on the wrong side of history here and that's why calling you out on it gets such a strong emotional response.
That's kind of rich considering your posting history and that of some other people in this thread. You've already decided (wrongly, but we don't have to relitigate that) that Israel is committing a genocide in Gaza. If you think Israel is a genocidal state then of course your only instinct is to believe that literally every single action they do is unreasonable and/or nefarious. There can be multiple reasons for doing things as Billyboy said. We don't fully know for sure of course, but it's quite possible that Israel struck Syria because A. Israel has a Druze community that is super patriotic and wants its brethren in Syria protected, and Israel is actually taking steps to do that and B. that Netanyahu wants to keep Syria weak and factionalized. I can agree with A while disagreeing with B. Others might think that neither applies or is a good thing and that's fine too. That's why this thread is a debate. You are anything but neutral. Maybe examine your own biases first before psychoanalyzing people like Billyboy who are actually trying to treat this subject and the topic of broader Middle East geopolitics with the nuance they deserve.
The one major difference is that I never pronounced myself as a neutral and that I don't get angry and lash out when people tell me that.
I presented why I think Israel is doing a genocide, I don't think any state is anything, I, as I wrote many times think that Nethyanahu and parts of his government are genocidal warmongers.
If Israel had a mass protest movement to remove them from power I would happily be on the "yey Israel" train, I have no love for jihadists or Islamists, I hate terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hesbolah.
I find it hilarious that you guys think you are "neutral critical thinkers" and think you can call others out for lack of nuance when all you can is deny wrongdoing by Israel and attack anyone who doesn't think like you guys. Spectacular lack of self awareness.
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On July 17 2025 22:28 Jankisa wrote:
It's not hard to categorize people on this issue, you might think of yourself as neutral but your instincts are, every time, be it because of your media diet or inherent biases to, after some new developments like this one happen come here and provide explanations for Israel's actions that frame them as pragmatic and reasonable.
It's a pattern, another pattern is that you get very annoyed when people point this out.
My speculation is that's because deep down you feel that you are on the wrong side of history here and that's why calling you out on it gets such a strong emotional response.
If people ever bothered to call me out on things I actually said then you might be onto something. Everyone thinks they have a balanced opinion, otherwise they would not hold that opinion., I do not think I'm immune to bias quite the opposite. I do think I do better then most on this issue because I actually put in time and effort to make sure my media diet is balanced. What upsets people on this thread for being "pro-Israel" upsets actual pro-Israel elsewhere. I fail the purity tests of both extremes and I'm completely OK with that. If I ever find myself agreeing with oBlade or GH on any issue I instantly get concerned. People that have concluded that Israel is completely evil and every action they miss are never going come close to understanding what my position is because my position is no binary. But that also gives me a much better chance of keeping up with what is going on, because the situation is not binary. Over this thread I've basically answered every question asked of me regardless of its tone or intention or difficulty. When I have asked questions of people generally they either disappear or insult and disappear.
And ya, anyone who is not wholly in Israel being the great Satan camp is going to come off as pro-Israel in here, actual pro-Israel people can not last because of the hate. Rjgooner will tire shortly and you will lose the opportunity to actually learn what people with a different opinion then you think. I don't personally agree with a lot of what he says, but he is still less extreme than many of you, just in the opposite direction. It is also just a nice change of pace.
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On July 18 2025 02:06 RJGooner wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2025 01:54 Jockmcplop wrote:
Agreeing with one thing and disagreeing with another to give the illusion of balance isn't 'nuance'.
Understanding that not everything is black and white and that there may be multiple reasons why people and nations act the way they do (especially in a place as complex as the Middle East) is exactly what nuance is.
There's got to be a name for people who over and over present a manichaean view of a topic but end every post with "ooh the world is so nuanced not everything is black and white"
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On July 18 2025 01:51 RJGooner wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2025 22:28 Jankisa wrote:
It's not hard to categorize people on this issue, you might think of yourself as neutral but your instincts are, every time, be it because of your media diet or inherent biases to, after some new developments like this one happen come here and provide explanations for Israel's actions that frame them as pragmatic and reasonable.
It's a pattern, another pattern is that you get very annoyed when people point this out.
My speculation is that's because deep down you feel that you are on the wrong side of history here and that's why calling you out on it gets such a strong emotional response.
That's kind of rich considering your posting history and that of some other people in this thread. You've already decided (wrongly, but we don't have to relitigate that) that Israel is committing a genocide in Gaza. If you think Israel is a genocidal state then of course your only instinct is to believe that literally every single action they do is unreasonable and/or nefarious. There can be multiple reasons for doing things as Billyboy said. We don't fully know for sure of course, but it's quite possible that Israel struck Syria because A. Israel has a Druze community that is super patriotic and wants its brethren in Syria protected, and Israel is actually taking steps to do that and B. that Netanyahu wants to keep Syria weak and factionalized. I can agree with A while disagreeing with B. Others might think that neither applies or is a good thing and that's fine too. That's why this thread is a debate. You are anything but neutral. Maybe examine your own biases first before psychoanalyzing people like Billyboy who are actually trying to treat this subject and the topic of broader Middle East geopolitics with the nuance they deserve.
Under Netanyahu's administration it makes more sense to assume nefarious intent than anything else. That is irrespective of any labels such as genocide. It's the same as with Trump, people should always assume nefarious intent first before anything else.
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On July 18 2025 03:23 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2025 01:51 RJGooner wrote:On July 17 2025 22:28 Jankisa wrote:
It's not hard to categorize people on this issue, you might think of yourself as neutral but your instincts are, every time, be it because of your media diet or inherent biases to, after some new developments like this one happen come here and provide explanations for Israel's actions that frame them as pragmatic and reasonable.
It's a pattern, another pattern is that you get very annoyed when people point this out.
My speculation is that's because deep down you feel that you are on the wrong side of history here and that's why calling you out on it gets such a strong emotional response.
That's kind of rich considering your posting history and that of some other people in this thread. You've already decided (wrongly, but we don't have to relitigate that) that Israel is committing a genocide in Gaza. If you think Israel is a genocidal state then of course your only instinct is to believe that literally every single action they do is unreasonable and/or nefarious. There can be multiple reasons for doing things as Billyboy said. We don't fully know for sure of course, but it's quite possible that Israel struck Syria because A. Israel has a Druze community that is super patriotic and wants its brethren in Syria protected, and Israel is actually taking steps to do that and B. that Netanyahu wants to keep Syria weak and factionalized. I can agree with A while disagreeing with B. Others might think that neither applies or is a good thing and that's fine too. That's why this thread is a debate. You are anything but neutral. Maybe examine your own biases first before psychoanalyzing people like Billyboy who are actually trying to treat this subject and the topic of broader Middle East geopolitics with the nuance they deserve. Under Netanyahu's administration it makes more sense to assume nefarious intent than anything else. That is irrespective of any labels such as genocide. It's the same as with Trump, people should always assume nefarious intent first before anything else.
I think self interest would be the best place to start. You are likely going to get more nefarious than good. A big difference between the two is Netanyahu is far more calculated, intelligent and informed.
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On July 18 2025 03:04 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2025 22:28 Jankisa wrote:
It's not hard to categorize people on this issue, you might think of yourself as neutral but your instincts are, every time, be it because of your media diet or inherent biases to, after some new developments like this one happen come here and provide explanations for Israel's actions that frame them as pragmatic and reasonable.
It's a pattern, another pattern is that you get very annoyed when people point this out.
My speculation is that's because deep down you feel that you are on the wrong side of history here and that's why calling you out on it gets such a strong emotional response.
**If people ever bothered to call me out on things I actually said then you might be onto something.** Everyone thinks they have a balanced opinion, otherwise they would not hold that opinion., I do not think I'm immune to bias quite the opposite. I do think I do better then most on this issue because I actually put in time and effort to make sure my media diet is balanced. What upsets people on this thread for being "pro-Israel" upsets actual pro-Israel elsewhere. I fail the purity tests of both extremes and I'm completely OK with that. If I ever find myself agreeing with oBlade or GH on any issue I instantly get concerned. People that have concluded that Israel is completely evil and every action they miss are never going come close to understanding what my position is because my position is no binary. But that also gives me a much better chance of keeping up with what is going on, because the situation is not binary. Over this thread I've basically answered every question asked of me regardless of its tone or intention or difficulty. When I have asked questions of people generally they either disappear or insult and disappear. And ya, anyone who is not wholly in Israel being the great Satan camp is going to come off as pro-Israel in here, actual pro-Israel people can not last because of the hate. Rjgooner will tire shortly and you will lose the opportunity to actually learn what people with a different opinion then you think. I don't personally agree with a lot of what he says, but he is still less extreme than many of you, just in the opposite direction. It is also just a nice change of pace.
A few pages back I explained this exact thing to you but you decided to ignore it (weird for someone who brags about answering everything and accusing people of not doing the same):
On July 11 2025 01:52 Jankisa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2025 01:23 Billyboy wrote:On July 10 2025 23:22 Jankisa wrote:On July 10 2025 22:39 Billyboy wrote:On July 10 2025 18:05 Jankisa wrote:To reply to RJ who is perplexed how could someone come to a conclusion that hostages are important to Nethyanahu: Netanyahu: Return of hostages important, but war’s ‘supreme goal’ is victory over enemiesThis, after the reports of his aide being arrested for leaking information and sabotaguing negotiations really pissed the families of hostages off, because when you say something like this you are basically giving a free hand to Hamas to kill them, since they don't really mean much to IDF, according to their leader. As far as BillyBoy's incredibly obtuse statement where he knows how Gazans should be happy to be ethnically cleansed to somewhere else, I wonder how he'd react if I kept throwing bombs at his house for almost 2 years and then offered him a tent somewhere in a desert to relocate since "his house is clearly not safe", I'm sure he'd be supper happy and would consider that a big win! That is not at all what I said, why go full asshole on me? It is so tiring. Do you really think everyone in Gaza wants to stay there? How many times do we here it is a large open air prison and you think no one wants to leave? Tons of them want what every human wants. What does sicken me is that people, who consider themselves the righteous ones, won't take the refugees because the Syrian ones cause the rise of the right and made it more difficult on them. Selfish self righteous cunts in my opinion. This is their home. This is the only place they have known. They have an absolute right to stay there. The reason why they might want to leave is because Israel through their policy of ethnic cleansing and genocide made it impossible for them to stay. In a just world they would be provided reparations and their city would be rebuilt, what Israel is offering is to put them in a concentration camp. What happened in Gaza is not the fault of Egypt or Jordan, or any of the other countries around them that are "supposed to take them because they are also brown". The country that is the most complicit in the destruction of Gaza after Israel is the US, are you down with a plan for Israel and US to pay to relocate 2 million people to Texas? As someone who's family was driven from their home which was subsequently looted and they were never able to return there I can tell you that the people who are selfish cunts in this hypothetical are people like you who both don't care about these people enough to be on board a humane solution which lets them stay in their home as well as calling for countries that had nothing to do with this whole fucking mess to take 2 million refugees because Israel decided that their security means flattening a city. What is tiring is that you can't see that you went full asshole the moment that you decided that Israel is unimpeachable and
everyone else is responsible for fixing their mess. Germany didn't fuck up Syria, neither did Turkey. It wasn't Lebanon or Jordan either. They most certainly didn't occupy Gaza in 1967 and they for sure didn't decide that a normal reaction to a terrorist attack that was only this successful because Israel's security forces were focused on taking more land in the West bank instead of protecting their citizens was to destroy or render uninhabitable 80 % + of buildings in a city of 2+ million while killing 60 + K people. This is what you are defending and this is who you are explaining should shoulder the burden of fixing it, otherwise they are selfish cunts, gotcha, how very righteous of you. I did not decide the bolded part, and for the 1000 time go try to find me saying it. I get that you have to say it because otherwise you would have to deal with what I'm actually saying and that is way harder, but it does not make it any less frustrating. I'm also not suggesting that people should be forced to go, I'm just not some self righteous asshole that is forcing them to stay in a hell hole. Everyone who decided it was a good idea to send all the Jews to Israel shares some of the responsibility along with all the assholes along the way that decided the best policy was to try to kill each other instead of getting along. But here we are and someone needs to start thinking about what is an actual go forward plan for the 6 million people living in various levels of hell. **You are communicating exactly as a person who decided exactly that, I'm sure I couldn't get or find GH admitting he's a tankie, but he reacts to news, writes and communicates exactly as a tankie would, so as far as I'm concerned he's a tankie.** You aren't suggesting people should be forced to go, just saying that them "voluntarily" leaving after their homes got wrecked is a huge win because all choices are bad, well, the choices are bad because Israel never attempted or considered any good choices, and this is the part of the responsibility Israel has that you keep ignoring. On top of that you refuse to acknowledge that Israel has bad intent, going into a densely populated area and deciding to kill, regardless of amount of collateral damage every Hamas member as their stated war goal on which they didn't really specify how that would actually work, without any attempt of presenting an alternative to Hamas (except arming street gangs) and by any means necessary, including refusing to let aid in is evidence enough of genocidal intent to anyone who hasn't decided that Israel just "wouldn't do that". Also interesting how you expanded the population to basically all Palestinians, not just Gazans, so you are already OK with Israel expelling all of them. Very Laura Loomer aligator alcatraz 65 million tweet vibes.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and swims like a duck, it might be a duck.
I don't think my views are nearly as extreme as yours, my view is that Israel has a bad, genocidal government (as evidenced by their genocidal statements and actions) and Israeli people should remove them.
Your view is that Israel has the right to kill as many people as they want, bomb as many countries as they wand and relocate any population if it feels threatened by them.
That seems much more extreme.
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On July 18 2025 04:37 Jankisa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2025 03:04 Billyboy wrote:On July 17 2025 22:28 Jankisa wrote:
It's not hard to categorize people on this issue, you might think of yourself as neutral but your instincts are, every time, be it because of your media diet or inherent biases to, after some new developments like this one happen come here and provide explanations for Israel's actions that frame them as pragmatic and reasonable.
It's a pattern, another pattern is that you get very annoyed when people point this out.
My speculation is that's because deep down you feel that you are on the wrong side of history here and that's why calling you out on it gets such a strong emotional response.
**If people ever bothered to call me out on things I actually said then you might be onto something.** Everyone thinks they have a balanced opinion, otherwise they would not hold that opinion., I do not think I'm immune to bias quite the opposite. I do think I do better then most on this issue because I actually put in time and effort to make sure my media diet is balanced. What upsets people on this thread for being "pro-Israel" upsets actual pro-Israel elsewhere. I fail the purity tests of both extremes and I'm completely OK with that. If I ever find myself agreeing with oBlade or GH on any issue I instantly get concerned. People that have concluded that Israel is completely evil and every action they miss are never going come close to understanding what my position is because my position is no binary. But that also gives me a much better chance of keeping up with what is going on, because the situation is not binary. Over this thread I've basically answered every question asked of me regardless of its tone or intention or difficulty. When I have asked questions of people generally they either disappear or insult and disappear. And ya, anyone who is not wholly in Israel being the great Satan camp is going to come off as pro-Israel in here, actual pro-Israel people can not last because of the hate. Rjgooner will tire shortly and you will lose the opportunity to actually learn what people with a different opinion then you think. I don't personally agree with a lot of what he says, but he is still less extreme than many of you, just in the opposite direction. It is also just a nice change of pace. A few pages back I explained this exact thing to you but you decided to ignore it (weird for someone who brags about answering everything and accusing people of not doing the same): Show nested quote +On July 11 2025 01:52 Jankisa wrote:On July 11 2025 01:23 Billyboy wrote:On July 10 2025 23:22 Jankisa wrote:On July 10 2025 22:39 Billyboy wrote:On July 10 2025 18:05 Jankisa wrote:To reply to RJ who is perplexed how could someone come to a conclusion that hostages are important to Nethyanahu: Netanyahu: Return of hostages important, but war’s ‘supreme goal’ is victory over enemiesThis, after the reports of his aide being arrested for leaking information and sabotaguing negotiations really pissed the families of hostages off, because when you say something like this you are basically giving a free hand to Hamas to kill them, since they don't really mean much to IDF, according to their leader. As far as BillyBoy's incredibly obtuse statement where he knows how Gazans should be happy to be ethnically cleansed to somewhere else, I wonder how he'd react if I kept throwing bombs at his house for almost 2 years and then offered him a tent somewhere in a desert to relocate since "his house is clearly not safe", I'm sure he'd be supper happy and would consider that a big win! That is not at all what I said, why go full asshole on me? It is so tiring. Do you really think everyone in Gaza wants to stay there? How many times do we here it is a large open air prison and you think no one wants to leave? Tons of them want what every human wants. What does sicken me is that people, who consider themselves the righteous ones, won't take the refugees because the Syrian ones cause the rise of the right and made it more difficult on them. Selfish self righteous cunts in my opinion. This is their home. This is the only place they have known. They have an absolute right to stay there. The reason why they might want to leave is because Israel through their policy of ethnic cleansing and genocide made it impossible for them to stay. In a just world they would be provided reparations and their city would be rebuilt, what Israel is offering is to put them in a concentration camp. What happened in Gaza is not the fault of Egypt or Jordan, or any of the other countries around them that are "supposed to take them because they are also brown". The country that is the most complicit in the destruction of Gaza after Israel is the US, are you down with a plan for Israel and US to pay to relocate 2 million people to Texas? As someone who's family was driven from their home which was subsequently looted and they were never able to return there I can tell you that the people who are selfish cunts in this hypothetical are people like you who both don't care about these people enough to be on board a humane solution which lets them stay in their home as well as calling for countries that had nothing to do with this whole fucking mess to take 2 million refugees because Israel decided that their security means flattening a city. What is tiring is that you can't see that you went full asshole the moment that you decided that Israel is unimpeachable and
everyone else is responsible for fixing their mess. Germany didn't fuck up Syria, neither did Turkey. It wasn't Lebanon or Jordan either. They most certainly didn't occupy Gaza in 1967 and they for sure didn't decide that a normal reaction to a terrorist attack that was only this successful because Israel's security forces were focused on taking more land in the West bank instead of protecting their citizens was to destroy or render uninhabitable 80 % + of buildings in a city of 2+ million while killing 60 + K people. This is what you are defending and this is who you are explaining should shoulder the burden of fixing it, otherwise they are selfish cunts, gotcha, how very righteous of you. I did not decide the bolded part, and for the 1000 time go try to find me saying it. I get that you have to say it because otherwise you would have to deal with what I'm actually saying and that is way harder, but it does not make it any less frustrating. I'm also not suggesting that people should be forced to go, I'm just not some self righteous asshole that is forcing them to stay in a hell hole. Everyone who decided it was a good idea to send all the Jews to Israel shares some of the responsibility along with all the assholes along the way that decided the best policy was to try to kill each other instead of getting along. But here we are and someone needs to start thinking about what is an actual go forward plan for the 6 million people living in various levels of hell. **You are communicating exactly as a person who decided exactly that, I'm sure I couldn't get or find GH admitting he's a tankie, but he reacts to news, writes and communicates exactly as a tankie would, so as far as I'm concerned he's a tankie.** You aren't suggesting people should be forced to go, just saying that them "voluntarily" leaving after their homes got wrecked is a huge win because all choices are bad, well, the choices are bad because Israel never attempted or considered any good choices, and this is the part of the responsibility Israel has that you keep ignoring. On top of that you refuse to acknowledge that Israel has bad intent, going into a densely populated area and deciding to kill, regardless of amount of collateral damage every Hamas member as their stated war goal on which they didn't really specify how that would actually work, without any attempt of presenting an alternative to Hamas (except arming street gangs) and by any means necessary, including refusing to let aid in is evidence enough of genocidal intent to anyone who hasn't decided that Israel just "wouldn't do that". Also interesting how you expanded the population to basically all Palestinians, not just Gazans, so you are already OK with Israel expelling all of them. Very Laura Loomer aligator alcatraz 65 million tweet vibes. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and swims like a duck, it might be a duck. I don't think my views are nearly as extreme as yours, my view is that Israel has a bad, genocidal government (as evidenced by their genocidal statements and actions) and Israeli people should remove them. Your view is that Israel has the right to kill as many people as they want, bomb as many countries as they wand and relocate any population if it feels threatened by them. That seems much more extreme.
None of that is related to things that I have said. People on the thread get annoying at back and forths so it seemed silly to respond.
I'm saying that people should be allowed to go and that the western world should provide them a good place to stay since the western world is the ones who decided on this great plan to begin with. Not all will go but some will and that will be better for everyone because the current situation even without bombs falling is unsustainable (and is so on purpose).
I've also many times on repeat said that the IDF actions in Gaza are immoral and awful. Killing civilians because you think one fighter is there horrible. Even non war crimes like attacking a hospital because it has a missile depot or base under it is still morally reprehensible.
What separates me from people on this thread is I put lots of the blame also on Iran and Hamas. Just because I don't 100% blame Israel means I 100% blame Hamas. What is always telling is once in a while I tell someone they support Hamas because they talk a bunch of shit about Israel, never once has it clicked that holy shit when this other guy talks shit about Hamas that does not mean he supports everything Israel does.
I do not say nearly the awful things about you that you say about me, so just maybe I'm not actually the problem here and you and others need to figure out how to have a conversation with people that don't 100% agree with you on everything. The purity test shit is bullshit and leads you to many many false conclusions.
I'm taking a break for a while so do not expect a response from me until next week.
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On July 18 2025 04:47 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2025 04:37 Jankisa wrote:On July 18 2025 03:04 Billyboy wrote:On July 17 2025 22:28 Jankisa wrote:
It's not hard to categorize people on this issue, you might think of yourself as neutral but your instincts are, every time, be it because of your media diet or inherent biases to, after some new developments like this one happen come here and provide explanations for Israel's actions that frame them as pragmatic and reasonable.
It's a pattern, another pattern is that you get very annoyed when people point this out.
My speculation is that's because deep down you feel that you are on the wrong side of history here and that's why calling you out on it gets such a strong emotional response.
**If people ever bothered to call me out on things I actually said then you might be onto something.** Everyone thinks they have a balanced opinion, otherwise they would not hold that opinion., I do not think I'm immune to bias quite the opposite. I do think I do better then most on this issue because I actually put in time and effort to make sure my media diet is balanced. What upsets people on this thread for being "pro-Israel" upsets actual pro-Israel elsewhere. I fail the purity tests of both extremes and I'm completely OK with that. If I ever find myself agreeing with oBlade or GH on any issue I instantly get concerned. People that have concluded that Israel is completely evil and every action they miss are never going come close to understanding what my position is because my position is no binary. But that also gives me a much better chance of keeping up with what is going on, because the situation is not binary. Over this thread I've basically answered every question asked of me regardless of its tone or intention or difficulty. When I have asked questions of people generally they either disappear or insult and disappear. And ya, anyone who is not wholly in Israel being the great Satan camp is going to come off as pro-Israel in here, actual pro-Israel people can not last because of the hate. Rjgooner will tire shortly and you will lose the opportunity to actually learn what people with a different opinion then you think. I don't personally agree with a lot of what he says, but he is still less extreme than many of you, just in the opposite direction. It is also just a nice change of pace. A few pages back I explained this exact thing to you but you decided to ignore it (weird for someone who brags about answering everything and accusing people of not doing the same): On July 11 2025 01:52 Jankisa wrote:On July 11 2025 01:23 Billyboy wrote:On July 10 2025 23:22 Jankisa wrote:On July 10 2025 22:39 Billyboy wrote:On July 10 2025 18:05 Jankisa wrote:To reply to RJ who is perplexed how could someone come to a conclusion that hostages are important to Nethyanahu: Netanyahu: Return of hostages important, but war’s ‘supreme goal’ is victory over enemiesThis, after the reports of his aide being arrested for leaking information and sabotaguing negotiations really pissed the families of hostages off, because when you say something like this you are basically giving a free hand to Hamas to kill them, since they don't really mean much to IDF, according to their leader. As far as BillyBoy's incredibly obtuse statement where he knows how Gazans should be happy to be ethnically cleansed to somewhere else, I wonder how he'd react if I kept throwing bombs at his house for almost 2 years and then offered him a tent somewhere in a desert to relocate since "his house is clearly not safe", I'm sure he'd be supper happy and would consider that a big win! That is not at all what I said, why go full asshole on me? It is so tiring. Do you really think everyone in Gaza wants to stay there? How many times do we here it is a large open air prison and you think no one wants to leave? Tons of them want what every human wants. What does sicken me is that people, who consider themselves the righteous ones, won't take the refugees because the Syrian ones cause the rise of the right and made it more difficult on them. Selfish self righteous cunts in my opinion. This is their home. This is the only place they have known. They have an absolute right to stay there. The reason why they might want to leave is because Israel through their policy of ethnic cleansing and genocide made it impossible for them to stay. In a just world they would be provided reparations and their city would be rebuilt, what Israel is offering is to put them in a concentration camp. What happened in Gaza is not the fault of Egypt or Jordan, or any of the other countries around them that are "supposed to take them because they are also brown". The country that is the most complicit in the destruction of Gaza after Israel is the US, are you down with a plan for Israel and US to pay to relocate 2 million people to Texas? As someone who's family was driven from their home which was subsequently looted and they were never able to return there I can tell you that the people who are selfish cunts in this hypothetical are people like you who both don't care about these people enough to be on board a humane solution which lets them stay in their home as well as calling for countries that had nothing to do with this whole fucking mess to take 2 million refugees because Israel decided that their security means flattening a city. What is tiring is that you can't see that you went full asshole the moment that you decided that Israel is unimpeachable and
everyone else is responsible for fixing their mess. Germany didn't fuck up Syria, neither did Turkey. It wasn't Lebanon or Jordan either. They most certainly didn't occupy Gaza in 1967 and they for sure didn't decide that a normal reaction to a terrorist attack that was only this successful because Israel's security forces were focused on taking more land in the West bank instead of protecting their citizens was to destroy or render uninhabitable 80 % + of buildings in a city of 2+ million while killing 60 + K people. This is what you are defending and this is who you are explaining should shoulder the burden of fixing it, otherwise they are selfish cunts, gotcha, how very righteous of you. I did not decide the bolded part, and for the 1000 time go try to find me saying it. I get that you have to say it because otherwise you would have to deal with what I'm actually saying and that is way harder, but it does not make it any less frustrating. I'm also not suggesting that people should be forced to go, I'm just not some self righteous asshole that is forcing them to stay in a hell hole. Everyone who decided it was a good idea to send all the Jews to Israel shares some of the responsibility along with all the assholes along the way that decided the best policy was to try to kill each other instead of getting along. But here we are and someone needs to start thinking about what is an actual go forward plan for the 6 million people living in various levels of hell. **You are communicating exactly as a person who decided exactly that, I'm sure I couldn't get or find GH admitting he's a tankie, but he reacts to news, writes and communicates exactly as a tankie would, so as far as I'm concerned he's a tankie.** You aren't suggesting people should be forced to go, just saying that them "voluntarily" leaving after their homes got wrecked is a huge win because all choices are bad, well, the choices are bad because Israel never attempted or considered any good choices, and this is the part of the responsibility Israel has that you keep ignoring. On top of that you refuse to acknowledge that Israel has bad intent, going into a densely populated area and deciding to kill, regardless of amount of collateral damage every Hamas member as their stated war goal on which they didn't really specify how that would actually work, without any attempt of presenting an alternative to Hamas (except arming street gangs) and by any means necessary, including refusing to let aid in is evidence enough of genocidal intent to anyone who hasn't decided that Israel just "wouldn't do that". Also interesting how you expanded the population to basically all Palestinians, not just Gazans, so you are already OK with Israel expelling all of them. Very Laura Loomer aligator alcatraz 65 million tweet vibes. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and swims like a duck, it might be a duck. I don't think my views are nearly as extreme as yours, my view is that Israel has a bad, genocidal government (as evidenced by their genocidal statements and actions) and Israeli people should remove them. Your view is that Israel has the right to kill as many people as they want, bomb as many countries as they wand and relocate any population if it feels threatened by them. That seems much more extreme. None of that is related to things that I have said. People on the thread get annoying at back and forths so it seemed silly to respond. I'm saying that people should be allowed to go and that the western world should provide them a good place to stay since the western world is the ones who decided on this great plan to begin with. Not all will go but some will and that will be better for everyone because the current situation even without bombs falling is unsustainable (and is so on purpose). I've also many times on repeat said that the IDF actions in Gaza are immoral and awful. Killing civilians because you think one fighter is there horrible. Even non war crimes like attacking a hospital because it has a missile depot or base under it is still morally reprehensible. What separates me from people on this thread is I put lots of the blame also on Iran and Hamas. Just because I don't 100% blame Israel means I 100% blame Hamas. What is always telling is once in a while I tell someone they support Hamas because they talk a bunch of shit about Israel, never once has it clicked that holy shit when this other guy talks shit about Hamas that does not mean he supports everything Israel does. I do not say nearly the awful things about you that you say about me, so just maybe I'm not actually the problem here and you and others need to figure out how to have a conversation with people that don't 100% agree with you on everything. The purity test shit is bullshit and leads you to many many false conclusions. I'm taking a break for a while so do not expect a response from me until next week.
Absolutely DRIPPING with nuance.
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Good faith argumentation is a forgotten discipline. And it's needed more than ever here on tl.net.
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On July 18 2025 02:34 Jankisa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2025 01:51 RJGooner wrote:On July 17 2025 22:28 Jankisa wrote:
It's not hard to categorize people on this issue, you might think of yourself as neutral but your instincts are, every time, be it because of your media diet or inherent biases to, after some new developments like this one happen come here and provide explanations for Israel's actions that frame them as pragmatic and reasonable.
It's a pattern, another pattern is that you get very annoyed when people point this out.
My speculation is that's because deep down you feel that you are on the wrong side of history here and that's why calling you out on it gets such a strong emotional response.
That's kind of rich considering your posting history and that of some other people in this thread. You've already decided (wrongly, but we don't have to relitigate that) that Israel is committing a genocide in Gaza. If you think Israel is a genocidal state then of course your only instinct is to believe that literally every single action they do is unreasonable and/or nefarious. There can be multiple reasons for doing things as Billyboy said. We don't fully know for sure of course, but it's quite possible that Israel struck Syria because A. Israel has a Druze community that is super patriotic and wants its brethren in Syria protected, and Israel is actually taking steps to do that and B. that Netanyahu wants to keep Syria weak and factionalized. I can agree with A while disagreeing with B. Others might think that neither applies or is a good thing and that's fine too. That's why this thread is a debate. You are anything but neutral. Maybe examine your own biases first before psychoanalyzing people like Billyboy who are actually trying to treat this subject and the topic of broader Middle East geopolitics with the nuance they deserve. The one major difference is that I never pronounced myself as a neutral and that I don't get angry and lash out when people tell me that. I presented why I think Israel is doing a genocide, I don't think any state is anything, I, as I wrote many times think that Nethyanahu and parts of his government are genocidal warmongers. If Israel had a mass protest movement to remove them from power I would happily be on the "yey Israel" train, I have no love for jihadists or Islamists, I hate terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hesbolah. I find it hilarious that you guys think you are "neutral critical thinkers" and think you can call others out for lack of nuance when all you can is deny wrongdoing by Israel and attack anyone who doesn't think like you guys. Spectacular lack of self awareness.
I never proclaimed that I was neutral either. At least that is something we can both agree on. I'm a Jewish American, so of course I have my blind spots and it's good to acknowledge such things. I just wish you and others in this thread would acknowledge yours.
I literally have a five-point post (page 450 or 449 of this thread) which lays out five separate things that I think Israel is doing wrong in this conflict. And the list is for sure even longer than that. So I can and do acknowledge when Israel does bad things or gets things wrong.
For you and some other people in this thread it seems like Israel is always the bad guy no matter what. Everything that Israel does ALWAYS has some nefarious intention behind it or is unreasonable. It's a very black and white view that often in my estimation ignores context and facts on the ground in what is a very complicated conflict and region of the world. This latest strike in Syria is no exception.
It's a bit ironic that you accuse others of lacking self-awareness. Nobody has been attacking you - we have been disagreeing with you. Maybe you see that as the same thing. We're also not the ones here who are doing some kind of weird psychoanalysis of people when they get annoyed that you're twisting their arguments.
Your view is that Israel has the right to kill as many people as they want, bomb as many countries as they wand and relocate any population if it feels threatened by them.
Just adding this as an edit to show that the above statement you made is literally exactly what I'm talking about. Literally nobody in this thread has argued this. You just put out pure ragebait and then are shocked that people get frustrated. You're not engaging in good faith argument.
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On July 18 2025 06:48 RJGooner wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2025 02:34 Jankisa wrote:On July 18 2025 01:51 RJGooner wrote:On July 17 2025 22:28 Jankisa wrote:
It's not hard to categorize people on this issue, you might think of yourself as neutral but your instincts are, every time, be it because of your media diet or inherent biases to, after some new developments like this one happen come here and provide explanations for Israel's actions that frame them as pragmatic and reasonable.
It's a pattern, another pattern is that you get very annoyed when people point this out.
My speculation is that's because deep down you feel that you are on the wrong side of history here and that's why calling you out on it gets such a strong emotional response.
That's kind of rich considering your posting history and that of some other people in this thread. You've already decided (wrongly, but we don't have to relitigate that) that Israel is committing a genocide in Gaza. If you think Israel is a genocidal state then of course your only instinct is to believe that literally every single action they do is unreasonable and/or nefarious. There can be multiple reasons for doing things as Billyboy said. We don't fully know for sure of course, but it's quite possible that Israel struck Syria because A. Israel has a Druze community that is super patriotic and wants its brethren in Syria protected, and Israel is actually taking steps to do that and B. that Netanyahu wants to keep Syria weak and factionalized. I can agree with A while disagreeing with B. Others might think that neither applies or is a good thing and that's fine too. That's why this thread is a debate. You are anything but neutral. Maybe examine your own biases first before psychoanalyzing people like Billyboy who are actually trying to treat this subject and the topic of broader Middle East geopolitics with the nuance they deserve. The one major difference is that I never pronounced myself as a neutral and that I don't get angry and lash out when people tell me that. I presented why I think Israel is doing a genocide, I don't think any state is anything, I, as I wrote many times think that Nethyanahu and parts of his government are genocidal warmongers. If Israel had a mass protest movement to remove them from power I would happily be on the "yey Israel" train, I have no love for jihadists or Islamists, I hate terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hesbolah. I find it hilarious that you guys think you are "neutral critical thinkers" and think you can call others out for lack of nuance when all you can is deny wrongdoing by Israel and attack anyone who doesn't think like you guys. Spectacular lack of self awareness. I never proclaimed that I was neutral either. At least that is something we can both agree on. I'm a Jewish American, so of course I have my blind spots and it's good to acknowledge such things. I just wish you and others in this thread would acknowledge yours. I literally have a five-point post (page 450 or 449 of this thread) which lays out five separate things that I think Israel is doing wrong in this conflict. And the list is for sure even longer than that. So I can and do acknowledge when Israel does bad things or gets things wrong. For you and some other people in this thread it seems like Israel is always the bad guy no matter what. Everything that Israel does ALWAYS has some nefarious intention behind it or is unreasonable. It's a very black and white view that often in my estimation ignores context and facts on the ground in what is a very complicated conflict and region of the world. This latest strike in Syria is no exception. It's a bit ironic that you accuse others of lacking self-awareness. Nobody has been attacking you - we have been disagreeing with you. Maybe you see that as the same thing. We're also not the ones here who are doing some kind of weird psychoanalysis of people when they get annoyed that you're twisting their arguments.
When Netanyahu wipes his ass, his most likely intent is to kill a species of bacteria that he hates for absolutely no reason. The man has no good bone in his body.
I hope you understand that Netanyahu is not Israel. He is the head of Israel. It's a pretty important and fairly obvious difference.
So when people blame Israel, they mean Netanyahu's administration. Not the average Jewish person playing basketball in their backyard or going to the cinemas to watch Superman. When people blame Israel, they mean Netanyahu's administration.
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On July 18 2025 06:53 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2025 06:48 RJGooner wrote:On July 18 2025 02:34 Jankisa wrote:On July 18 2025 01:51 RJGooner wrote:On July 17 2025 22:28 Jankisa wrote:
It's not hard to categorize people on this issue, you might think of yourself as neutral but your instincts are, every time, be it because of your media diet or inherent biases to, after some new developments like this one happen come here and provide explanations for Israel's actions that frame them as pragmatic and reasonable.
It's a pattern, another pattern is that you get very annoyed when people point this out.
My speculation is that's because deep down you feel that you are on the wrong side of history here and that's why calling you out on it gets such a strong emotional response.
That's kind of rich considering your posting history and that of some other people in this thread. You've already decided (wrongly, but we don't have to relitigate that) that Israel is committing a genocide in Gaza. If you think Israel is a genocidal state then of course your only instinct is to believe that literally every single action they do is unreasonable and/or nefarious. There can be multiple reasons for doing things as Billyboy said. We don't fully know for sure of course, but it's quite possible that Israel struck Syria because A. Israel has a Druze community that is super patriotic and wants its brethren in Syria protected, and Israel is actually taking steps to do that and B. that Netanyahu wants to keep Syria weak and factionalized. I can agree with A while disagreeing with B. Others might think that neither applies or is a good thing and that's fine too. That's why this thread is a debate. You are anything but neutral. Maybe examine your own biases first before psychoanalyzing people like Billyboy who are actually trying to treat this subject and the topic of broader Middle East geopolitics with the nuance they deserve. The one major difference is that I never pronounced myself as a neutral and that I don't get angry and lash out when people tell me that. I presented why I think Israel is doing a genocide, I don't think any state is anything, I, as I wrote many times think that Nethyanahu and parts of his government are genocidal warmongers. If Israel had a mass protest movement to remove them from power I would happily be on the "yey Israel" train, I have no love for jihadists or Islamists, I hate terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hesbolah. I find it hilarious that you guys think you are "neutral critical thinkers" and think you can call others out for lack of nuance when all you can is deny wrongdoing by Israel and attack anyone who doesn't think like you guys. Spectacular lack of self awareness. I never proclaimed that I was neutral either. At least that is something we can both agree on. I'm a Jewish American, so of course I have my blind spots and it's good to acknowledge such things. I just wish you and others in this thread would acknowledge yours. I literally have a five-point post (page 450 or 449 of this thread) which lays out five separate things that I think Israel is doing wrong in this conflict. And the list is for sure even longer than that. So I can and do acknowledge when Israel does bad things or gets things wrong. For you and some other people in this thread it seems like Israel is always the bad guy no matter what. Everything that Israel does ALWAYS has some nefarious intention behind it or is unreasonable. It's a very black and white view that often in my estimation ignores context and facts on the ground in what is a very complicated conflict and region of the world. This latest strike in Syria is no exception. It's a bit ironic that you accuse others of lacking self-awareness. Nobody has been attacking you - we have been disagreeing with you. Maybe you see that as the same thing. We're also not the ones here who are doing some kind of weird psychoanalysis of people when they get annoyed that you're twisting their arguments. When Netanyahu wipes his ass, his most likely intent is to kill a species of bacteria that he hates for absolutely no reason. The man has no good bone in his body. I hope you understand that Netanyahu is not Israel. He is the head of Israel. It's a pretty important and fairly obvious difference. So when people blame Israel, they mean Netanyahu's administration. Not the average Jewish person playing basketball in their backyard or going to the cinemas to watch Superman. When people blame Israel, they mean Netanyahu's administration.
Just to be very clear. I don't accuse you or anyone else of blaming/attacking Jewish people. Please don't misunderstand me. I do think you and most other people in this thread are wrong but I don't assume anyone's views here are motivated by hatred. I only brought up my background because as a Jewish person I have a connection to Israel which informs how I see the world and where my blind spots/biases might be.
Netanyahu may not be Israel but he certainly represents Israel on the world stage and his administration makes policy. I don't like or support him and I hope he gets defeated at the next election, but I don't agree with your characterization that he is some nefarious evil plotter who always has some grand evil plan behind what he is doing. That is not how I see it based on my judgment of the facts on the ground.
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On July 18 2025 07:16 RJGooner wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2025 06:53 Magic Powers wrote:On July 18 2025 06:48 RJGooner wrote:On July 18 2025 02:34 Jankisa wrote:On July 18 2025 01:51 RJGooner wrote:On July 17 2025 22:28 Jankisa wrote:
It's not hard to categorize people on this issue, you might think of yourself as neutral but your instincts are, every time, be it because of your media diet or inherent biases to, after some new developments like this one happen come here and provide explanations for Israel's actions that frame them as pragmatic and reasonable.
It's a pattern, another pattern is that you get very annoyed when people point this out.
My speculation is that's because deep down you feel that you are on the wrong side of history here and that's why calling you out on it gets such a strong emotional response.
That's kind of rich considering your posting history and that of some other people in this thread. You've already decided (wrongly, but we don't have to relitigate that) that Israel is committing a genocide in Gaza. If you think Israel is a genocidal state then of course your only instinct is to believe that literally every single action they do is unreasonable and/or nefarious. There can be multiple reasons for doing things as Billyboy said. We don't fully know for sure of course, but it's quite possible that Israel struck Syria because A. Israel has a Druze community that is super patriotic and wants its brethren in Syria protected, and Israel is actually taking steps to do that and B. that Netanyahu wants to keep Syria weak and factionalized. I can agree with A while disagreeing with B. Others might think that neither applies or is a good thing and that's fine too. That's why this thread is a debate. You are anything but neutral. Maybe examine your own biases first before psychoanalyzing people like Billyboy who are actually trying to treat this subject and the topic of broader Middle East geopolitics with the nuance they deserve. The one major difference is that I never pronounced myself as a neutral and that I don't get angry and lash out when people tell me that. I presented why I think Israel is doing a genocide, I don't think any state is anything, I, as I wrote many times think that Nethyanahu and parts of his government are genocidal warmongers. If Israel had a mass protest movement to remove them from power I would happily be on the "yey Israel" train, I have no love for jihadists or Islamists, I hate terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hesbolah. I find it hilarious that you guys think you are "neutral critical thinkers" and think you can call others out for lack of nuance when all you can is deny wrongdoing by Israel and attack anyone who doesn't think like you guys. Spectacular lack of self awareness. I never proclaimed that I was neutral either. At least that is something we can both agree on. I'm a Jewish American, so of course I have my blind spots and it's good to acknowledge such things. I just wish you and others in this thread would acknowledge yours. I literally have a five-point post (page 450 or 449 of this thread) which lays out five separate things that I think Israel is doing wrong in this conflict. And the list is for sure even longer than that. So I can and do acknowledge when Israel does bad things or gets things wrong. For you and some other people in this thread it seems like Israel is always the bad guy no matter what. Everything that Israel does ALWAYS has some nefarious intention behind it or is unreasonable. It's a very black and white view that often in my estimation ignores context and facts on the ground in what is a very complicated conflict and region of the world. This latest strike in Syria is no exception. It's a bit ironic that you accuse others of lacking self-awareness. Nobody has been attacking you - we have been disagreeing with you. Maybe you see that as the same thing. We're also not the ones here who are doing some kind of weird psychoanalysis of people when they get annoyed that you're twisting their arguments. When Netanyahu wipes his ass, his most likely intent is to kill a species of bacteria that he hates for absolutely no reason. The man has no good bone in his body. I hope you understand that Netanyahu is not Israel. He is the head of Israel. It's a pretty important and fairly obvious difference. So when people blame Israel, they mean Netanyahu's administration. Not the average Jewish person playing basketball in their backyard or going to the cinemas to watch Superman. When people blame Israel, they mean Netanyahu's administration. Just to be very clear. I don't accuse you or anyone else of blaming/attacking Jewish people. Please don't misunderstand me. I do think you and most other people in this thread are wrong but I don't assume anyone's views here are motivated by hatred. I only brought up my background because as a Jewish person I have a connection to Israel which informs how I see the world and where my blind spots/biases might be. Netanyahu may not be Israel but he certainly represents Israel on the world stage and his administration makes policy. I don't like or support him and I hope he gets defeated at the next election, but I don't agree with your characterization that he is some nefarious evil plotter who always has some grand evil plan behind what he is doing. That is not how I see it based on my judgment of the facts on the ground.
To me it doesn't matter whether he does or doesn't have a grand evil plan. I think he does, but it's irrelevant. The outcome is the same either way.
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I have quoted posts from billyboy who was calling me a raging asshole, hypocrite and many more things, but sure, no one is attacking me.
A few pages back I pushed back on someone saying that what IDF did against Hesbolah and Hamas was all unjustified, providing specific reasons why it's not and why it actually contributes to security of Israel.
Just a few posts back I specified I think Hamas and Hesbolah, Jihadists and Islamists are horrible, how all I wish for is to get the warmongers at the head of Israel to get out.
None of that is good enough for you guys, because you see red when someone criticizes Israel, I think that they are conducting a genocide so I am now a caricature straw man you constructed in your heads.
I explained my stances quite a few times, I presented what I think yours are, and instead of explaining how they aren't all billyboy and you can do is say "well I didn't say exactly that, find where I did" and "why are you attacking me".
Even if we put genocide aside, the things that I 100 % believe to be true and which make me dislike posters who defend them, and you do defend them are:
1. Ethnic cleansing as a strategy for Gaza
2. The extend to which Israel is disrespecting sovereignty of their neighboring states
3. Complete disregard of Israel for civilian casualties
4. Disingenuous reasons for Israel's actions (not letting aid in, taking over distribution of aid, bombing Damascus over tribal conflict, bombing Iran under false pretenses)
In the end, it all boils down to one thing, dehumanization. Israel is acting as if thinks that one Israeli life is worth at least 50 Palestinian, Syrian, Iranian, Lebanese life.
They think that everything is justified in order for them to feel secure, from destroying 90 % of buildings in Gaza, to bombing and killing political prisoners in broad daylight in Iran, bombing a TV station, bombing a ministry of defense building with high ordinance in a center of a Syrian city, bombing churches, hospitals, ambulances, it just doesn't matter.
I want this killing to stop because i think all lives are worth the same, I also think that long term this is horrible for Israel because asymmetrical terrorism will be the response to this sooner or later, they aren't making Israel safer, they aren't making Druze safer, they aren't making the Middle east safer, and we will all suffer consequences, not just them.
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On July 18 2025 16:54 Jankisa wrote:
I want this killing to stop because i think all lives are worth the same, I also think that long term this is horrible for Israel because asymmetrical terrorism will be the response to this sooner or later, they aren't making Israel safer, they aren't making Druze safer, they aren't making the Middle east safer, and we will all suffer consequences, not just them.
I think you know that few in Israel would agree with your take on security.
Especially the terror response which already happened and resulted in maybe about a dozen dead Israelis since October 2023.
That's nothing that would change Israel's trajectory of an aspiring regional power.
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So al-Hirij wants goverment forces back to protect the druze now and Israel will "allow" security forces for 48 hours.
They don't seem that keen on doing that since they took massive casualties from al-Hirijs militia and Israeli airstrikes the first time around.
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EPT
