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On October 08 2024 23:17 KT_Elwood wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2024 20:22 Magic Powers wrote:
Let me rewrite this just a bit:
.... That's a rather useless exercise. To me the existence of israel can't be questioned. Hamas tried one year ago.. again.. and their shit kingdom has since collapsed. Hamas&Fatah are indoctrinating boys to become martyrs..girls to become obedient housewifes and mothers to martyrs.. how the fuck do you defend that kind of bullcrap? What kind of society does that?
The existence of Palestine can also not be questioned, and yet Israel always seems to find a way. Whether that is by stealing more land in the West bank, creating a forever war that prevents the establishment of a Palestinian state, blocking negotiations over a Palestinian state and outright condemning the idea of it, etc.
Seems quite radical in my book, and yet it's so hard for people to call a spade a spade.
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Palestine does exist and yet not exist since even you have the need to discuss that with israel
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On October 09 2024 02:29 KT_Elwood wrote:
Palestine does exist and yet not exist since even you have the need to discuss that with israel
Palestine exists.
But if you're talking about a Palestinian state, I wonder what could be the reason why it doesn't exist. Have you ever considered the part Israel plays in that? Or is it always only the fault of Palestinians and their allies?
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When occupation of gaza was dropped, rockets startet flying again.
So I thinkg Palestine had it's chances, and now it hasn't.
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On October 09 2024 04:00 KT_Elwood wrote:
When occupation of gaza was dropped, rockets startet flying again.
So I thinkg Palestine had it's chances, and now it hasn't.
So the backwards Palestinians just need to be oppressed and robbed and killed a little harder and that will solve it?
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There are about half as many people in gaza than coming to germany from syria in 2015-2016.
Pretty sure there is a solution that involves making them a good offer to live somewhere else - despite being urged by iranian proxies to further play the human shield.
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On October 09 2024 04:32 KT_Elwood wrote:
There are about half as many people in gaza than coming to germany from syria in 2015-2016.
Pretty sure there is a solution that involves making them a good offer to live somewhere else - despite being urged by iranian proxies to further play the human shield.
Interesting. So you are in favor of ethnic cleansing because it's "realistic"? Do you actually believe it is realistic or do you just wish it were realistic? And why do you wish for this rather than for Israel's allies to stop funding Israel?
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On October 09 2024 06:18 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2024 04:32 KT_Elwood wrote:
There are about half as many people in gaza than coming to germany from syria in 2015-2016.
Pretty sure there is a solution that involves making them a good offer to live somewhere else - despite being urged by iranian proxies to further play the human shield. Interesting. So you are in favor of ethnic cleansing because it's "realistic"? Do you actually believe it is realistic or do you just wish it were realistic? And why do you wish for this rather than for Israel's allies to stop funding Israel?
Note: I am saying all this assuming Israel will continue to be powerful enough to make all these decisions themselves. I think Israel losing American support or otherwise crumbling is unlikely to the point that no one should use it as an assumption for any argument. And its certainly not reasonable to use it as some beacon of hope for Palestinians.
I don't think anyone is "in favor" of forced displacement. It is similar to no one being "in favor" of abortions, even if someone believes a woman has a right to decide if she aborts a pregnancy. When someone is terminally ill and suffering from extreme pain, assisted suicide or similar decisions are not celebrated but they are "favored" because the situation had no "hooray" options available. I think the specific detail you are touching on here is a common source of misunderstanding and results in people talking past each other.
Speaking personally, I advocate for "run away" rather than "stay and fight" for the same reason a doctor may advocate for letting someone terminally ill die rather than endure extreme suffering for a few days before still dying. The "run away" option has been chosen by victims of conflict all around the world, resulting in a UN estimate of ~43 million refugees today. If Hamas and the Arab world as a whole advocated for relocation, it would happen.
And just to reiterate, I view Palestinian relocation as a tragedy. But I view Palestinian "stay and fight" as significantly more tragic. Even though 2 state solutions and other such diplomatic situations are ideal and I'd love for them to happen, I think it is dishonest when people say they think they are even slightly possible.
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On October 09 2024 09:12 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2024 06:18 Magic Powers wrote:On October 09 2024 04:32 KT_Elwood wrote:
There are about half as many people in gaza than coming to germany from syria in 2015-2016.
Pretty sure there is a solution that involves making them a good offer to live somewhere else - despite being urged by iranian proxies to further play the human shield. Interesting. So you are in favor of ethnic cleansing because it's "realistic"? Do you actually believe it is realistic or do you just wish it were realistic? And why do you wish for this rather than for Israel's allies to stop funding Israel? Note: I am saying all this assuming Israel will continue to be powerful enough to make all these decisions themselves. I think Israel losing American support or otherwise crumbling is unlikely to the point that no one should use it as an assumption for any argument. And its certainly not reasonable to use it as some beacon of hope for Palestinians. I don't think anyone is "in favor" of forced displacement. It is similar to no one being "in favor" of abortions, even if someone believes a woman has a right to decide if she aborts a pregnancy. When someone is terminally ill and suffering from extreme pain, assisted suicide or similar decisions are not celebrated but they are "favored" because the situation had no "hooray" options available. I think the specific detail you are touching on here is a common source of misunderstanding and results in people talking past each other. Speaking personally, I advocate for "run away" rather than "stay and fight" for the same reason a doctor may advocate for letting someone terminally ill die rather than endure extreme suffering for a few days before still dying. The "run away" option has been chosen by victims of conflict all around the world, resulting in a UN estimate of ~43 million refugees today. If Hamas and the Arab world as a whole advocated for relocation, it would happen. And just to reiterate, I view Palestinian relocation as a tragedy. But I view Palestinian "stay and fight" as significantly more tragic. Even though 2 state solutions and other such diplomatic situations are ideal and I'd love for them to happen, I think it is dishonest when people say they think they are even slightly possible.
How about Ukraine? Vietnam? Are / were those also cases where it would be / would've been preferable for people to just "relocate"?
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On October 09 2024 09:59 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2024 09:12 Mohdoo wrote:On October 09 2024 06:18 Magic Powers wrote:On October 09 2024 04:32 KT_Elwood wrote:
There are about half as many people in gaza than coming to germany from syria in 2015-2016.
Pretty sure there is a solution that involves making them a good offer to live somewhere else - despite being urged by iranian proxies to further play the human shield. Interesting. So you are in favor of ethnic cleansing because it's "realistic"? Do you actually believe it is realistic or do you just wish it were realistic? And why do you wish for this rather than for Israel's allies to stop funding Israel? Note: I am saying all this assuming Israel will continue to be powerful enough to make all these decisions themselves. I think Israel losing American support or otherwise crumbling is unlikely to the point that no one should use it as an assumption for any argument. And its certainly not reasonable to use it as some beacon of hope for Palestinians. I don't think anyone is "in favor" of forced displacement. It is similar to no one being "in favor" of abortions, even if someone believes a woman has a right to decide if she aborts a pregnancy. When someone is terminally ill and suffering from extreme pain, assisted suicide or similar decisions are not celebrated but they are "favored" because the situation had no "hooray" options available. I think the specific detail you are touching on here is a common source of misunderstanding and results in people talking past each other. Speaking personally, I advocate for "run away" rather than "stay and fight" for the same reason a doctor may advocate for letting someone terminally ill die rather than endure extreme suffering for a few days before still dying. The "run away" option has been chosen by victims of conflict all around the world, resulting in a UN estimate of ~43 million refugees today. If Hamas and the Arab world as a whole advocated for relocation, it would happen. And just to reiterate, I view Palestinian relocation as a tragedy. But I view Palestinian "stay and fight" as significantly more tragic. Even though 2 state solutions and other such diplomatic situations are ideal and I'd love for them to happen, I think it is dishonest when people say they think they are even slightly possible. How about Ukraine? Vietnam? Are / were those also cases where it would be / would've been preferable for people to just "relocate"?
In Ukraine they did, only the soldiers stay behind to defend the country.
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On October 09 2024 10:01 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2024 09:59 Magic Powers wrote:On October 09 2024 09:12 Mohdoo wrote:On October 09 2024 06:18 Magic Powers wrote:On October 09 2024 04:32 KT_Elwood wrote:
There are about half as many people in gaza than coming to germany from syria in 2015-2016.
Pretty sure there is a solution that involves making them a good offer to live somewhere else - despite being urged by iranian proxies to further play the human shield. Interesting. So you are in favor of ethnic cleansing because it's "realistic"? Do you actually believe it is realistic or do you just wish it were realistic? And why do you wish for this rather than for Israel's allies to stop funding Israel? Note: I am saying all this assuming Israel will continue to be powerful enough to make all these decisions themselves. I think Israel losing American support or otherwise crumbling is unlikely to the point that no one should use it as an assumption for any argument. And its certainly not reasonable to use it as some beacon of hope for Palestinians. I don't think anyone is "in favor" of forced displacement. It is similar to no one being "in favor" of abortions, even if someone believes a woman has a right to decide if she aborts a pregnancy. When someone is terminally ill and suffering from extreme pain, assisted suicide or similar decisions are not celebrated but they are "favored" because the situation had no "hooray" options available. I think the specific detail you are touching on here is a common source of misunderstanding and results in people talking past each other. Speaking personally, I advocate for "run away" rather than "stay and fight" for the same reason a doctor may advocate for letting someone terminally ill die rather than endure extreme suffering for a few days before still dying. The "run away" option has been chosen by victims of conflict all around the world, resulting in a UN estimate of ~43 million refugees today. If Hamas and the Arab world as a whole advocated for relocation, it would happen. And just to reiterate, I view Palestinian relocation as a tragedy. But I view Palestinian "stay and fight" as significantly more tragic. Even though 2 state solutions and other such diplomatic situations are ideal and I'd love for them to happen, I think it is dishonest when people say they think they are even slightly possible. How about Ukraine? Vietnam? Are / were those also cases where it would be / would've been preferable for people to just "relocate"? In Ukraine they did, only the soldiers stay behind to defend the country.
Ah, that's what we call "relocation" now. War refugees. No wonder the propaganda is working wonders on you.
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On October 09 2024 10:11 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2024 10:01 Billyboy wrote:On October 09 2024 09:59 Magic Powers wrote:On October 09 2024 09:12 Mohdoo wrote:On October 09 2024 06:18 Magic Powers wrote:On October 09 2024 04:32 KT_Elwood wrote:
There are about half as many people in gaza than coming to germany from syria in 2015-2016.
Pretty sure there is a solution that involves making them a good offer to live somewhere else - despite being urged by iranian proxies to further play the human shield. Interesting. So you are in favor of ethnic cleansing because it's "realistic"? Do you actually believe it is realistic or do you just wish it were realistic? And why do you wish for this rather than for Israel's allies to stop funding Israel? Note: I am saying all this assuming Israel will continue to be powerful enough to make all these decisions themselves. I think Israel losing American support or otherwise crumbling is unlikely to the point that no one should use it as an assumption for any argument. And its certainly not reasonable to use it as some beacon of hope for Palestinians. I don't think anyone is "in favor" of forced displacement. It is similar to no one being "in favor" of abortions, even if someone believes a woman has a right to decide if she aborts a pregnancy. When someone is terminally ill and suffering from extreme pain, assisted suicide or similar decisions are not celebrated but they are "favored" because the situation had no "hooray" options available. I think the specific detail you are touching on here is a common source of misunderstanding and results in people talking past each other. Speaking personally, I advocate for "run away" rather than "stay and fight" for the same reason a doctor may advocate for letting someone terminally ill die rather than endure extreme suffering for a few days before still dying. The "run away" option has been chosen by victims of conflict all around the world, resulting in a UN estimate of ~43 million refugees today. If Hamas and the Arab world as a whole advocated for relocation, it would happen. And just to reiterate, I view Palestinian relocation as a tragedy. But I view Palestinian "stay and fight" as significantly more tragic. Even though 2 state solutions and other such diplomatic situations are ideal and I'd love for them to happen, I think it is dishonest when people say they think they are even slightly possible. How about Ukraine? Vietnam? Are / were those also cases where it would be / would've been preferable for people to just "relocate"? In Ukraine they did, only the soldiers stay behind to defend the country. Ah, that's what we call "relocation" now. War refugees. No wonder the propaganda is working wonders on you.
I'm trying to explain to you his point. It is that better for the civilians to leave than to stay. Perhaps everyone if they want to live.
I'm not making a judgement here, just explaining to you his point.
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No, you don't understand the point at all. This is about all Palestinians being displaced for good. They can't return in the case that we're arguing about. Stop interferring when you don't know what people are talking about.
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'Israel has the moral high ground and they're just defending themselves.'
'Also, the only solution here is ethnically cleansing several million people because clearly Israel won't stop themselves and our superior, moral, and rules-based Western civilization won't do anything to stop them, either.'
'But we totally have the moral high ground because they, like, hate gays or something.'
Yeah, this totally tracks.
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On October 09 2024 06:18 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2024 04:32 KT_Elwood wrote:
There are about half as many people in gaza than coming to germany from syria in 2015-2016.
Pretty sure there is a solution that involves making them a good offer to live somewhere else - despite being urged by iranian proxies to further play the human shield. Interesting. So you are in favor of ethnic cleansing because it's "realistic"? Do you actually believe it is realistic or do you just wish it were realistic? And why do you wish for this rather than for Israel's allies to stop funding Israel?
Occupation and re-education. Worked for Nazi germany after 1945.
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On October 09 2024 15:19 KT_Elwood wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2024 06:18 Magic Powers wrote:On October 09 2024 04:32 KT_Elwood wrote:
There are about half as many people in gaza than coming to germany from syria in 2015-2016.
Pretty sure there is a solution that involves making them a good offer to live somewhere else - despite being urged by iranian proxies to further play the human shield. Interesting. So you are in favor of ethnic cleansing because it's "realistic"? Do you actually believe it is realistic or do you just wish it were realistic? And why do you wish for this rather than for Israel's allies to stop funding Israel? Occupation and re-education. Worked for Nazi germany after 1945.
Right, because after WW2, we took all the Germans and moved them all to Canada, and that's how peace was achieved.
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On October 09 2024 17:15 KT_Elwood wrote:
You know the GDR right?
I guess I don't, since I can't recall when did Germans ever get ethnically cleansed there. Care to teach me?
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On October 09 2024 15:19 KT_Elwood wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2024 06:18 Magic Powers wrote:On October 09 2024 04:32 KT_Elwood wrote:
There are about half as many people in gaza than coming to germany from syria in 2015-2016.
Pretty sure there is a solution that involves making them a good offer to live somewhere else - despite being urged by iranian proxies to further play the human shield. Interesting. So you are in favor of ethnic cleansing because it's "realistic"? Do you actually believe it is realistic or do you just wish it were realistic? And why do you wish for this rather than for Israel's allies to stop funding Israel? Occupation and re-education. Worked for Nazi germany after 1945.
Germany didn't have an oppressor pre-war, and no oppressor post-war in West Germany either. That's why that region was so easily "re-educated". There wasn't much education needed to begin with, as the people didn't want any more hostilities. It took only a few years until their ascension to NATO. This is what happens when a country truly has no enemy. No oppressor, no threat, only hope for a better life. That's when people come together.
Unfortunately in East Germany they then had to fight for liberation - with help from the US - against an actual oppressor, the USSR. Several generations later the Berlin wall fell and people were free. Ever since that day they've been in the process of rebuilding their economy. The resentment never caused new hostilities on the German side, they were done with it all. Only Putin continued to resent, but Germany was well protected by NATO.
Unsurprisingly, when there is no oppressor and no real threat, people are willing to work towards peace. But when there is an oppressor - just like Israel is oppressing Palestinians - they fight a war on both sides because the oppressor wants to maintain power and the oppressed want liberation. This is exactly how things work in reality. The other union states of the USSR experienced something very similar, with multiple revolutions happening at once until the USSR fell apart. They all wanted liberation from the oppressor, and they got their wish. The Berlin wall already fell before the official collapse of the USSR (triggered by Russia's loss of power due to the various revolutions).
Vietnam is another example of liberation, in their case it happened after a very brutal war against the US/France had ended. It cost many people their lives, but they succeeded. How did they succeed? They were much weaker, realistically they couldn't win. But they did, because all they had to do was to bleed out the aggressor. A thousand cuts was finally enough, and the US withdrew.
Why was this war fought? It was an ideological war by the US against the spread of communism. On the Vietnamese side it was a war for liberation. That isn't to say Vietnam is now a place of perfect freedom and prosperity with no major problems, but their people are no longer being massacred by the thousands, or even millions. What was it all for? Why did the US not relent sooner? Was the fear of communism worth all this?
Similarly, Israel's colonization of Palestine (currently the West bank) is also ideological. It's about the Zionist quest to create more space, more Lebensraum, for Jewish people. This is a war against anything that's non-Jewish. Palestinians are fighting for liberation. If you think they all only know erasure of Israel and they can't make compromises, then you've bought into pro-Israel propaganda. Hamas thinks this way, Hezbollah sure does, but countries like Egypt have largely made peace with Israel's existence - and that's despite Israel continuing to steal land and killing many civilians and committing various other war crimes. Despite all that, Israel's enemies are somehow not coming together to erase it from the map. They're fractured.
So what's the matter with Israel? Why does it continue to kill and steal? Because they have the backing of the US. So many wars in this world could've ended if the most powerful player had simply withdrawn from the conflict.
This is why people are arguing that this is a war of colonization. Nothing has really changed, it's the same old.
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EPT
