Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 217

On February 16 2024 01:26 JimmiC wrote:

I stand corrected. I would guess that since then the anger has dropped but not down to the 15% I suggested. It is 15% that support Bibi.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/only-15-israelis-want-netanyahu-keep-job-after-gaza-war-poll-finds-2024-01-02/

On February 15 2024 22:57 Nebuchad wrote:
Cerebrate is obviously hateful in that he takes a situation where a group is being oppressed and destroyed by another group, and he finds quirks and justifications to explain why this is either not happening or not a big deal. My perception of the situation is that, since he's obviously smart, he knows what's happening. He just thinks it's a good thing that it's happening, but also that he shouldn't admit that he thinks that. That he can fool some people with his words speaks to his rhetorical talent, not to his heart. You wouldn't be doing what he's doing if you didn't have hatred.

On February 16 2024 01:48 Ryzel wrote:


I get why you’re saying this, but it’s disingenuous to say he is trying to say bad things aren’t happening and/or aren’t a big deal. While he’s debated certain specific instances, I’ve never seen him deny that tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians are dying. I've also never seen him say that tens of thousands of Palestinians dying aren’t a big deal. I DO think that there are other things he views as a bigger deal though, things that you vehemently disagree warrant the importance he places on them.

It seems to me from Cerebrate’s posting history that the foundation of his value hierarchy stems from Israeli self-defense. Most of the content he chooses to share references the pervasiveness of anti-Israeli thoughts and actions, particularly in places one would least expect, as well as debunking specific claims that portray Israel in a negative light. He’s never made a post actively attacking Palestinians (in fact his knowledge of on-the-ground prices of aid for an average Gazan indicates he cares about understanding their problems). While it’s theoretically possible he’s intentionally dog whistling in an attempt to low key spread hatred of Palestinians, that requires a level of bad faith presupposition that could just as easily (if not more so) apply to you if someone chose.

The core of your disagreement lies in your disagreement of the priority of Israeli self-defense, specifically over the lives of Palestinian civilians. Cerebrate’s rhetorical approach is to show how dangerous and insidious the bad actors (Hamas et al.) are, as well as their negative effects on Palestinian civilians, to convince the reader that the terrible consequences of IDF actions are justified. That premise does not necessitate a hatred of Palestinians. Your rhetorical approach, on the other hand, seems to be rooted in discrediting the idea of Israeli self-defense as a priority by attacking the character of Israelis/Israel, by bringing evidence that indicates they are bad actors undeserving of support due to their malicious intent to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians. Ergo, based on rhetorical strategies used it’s much more likely that you harbor hatred of Israelis than Cerebrate harbors hatred of Palestinians.

That being said, I honestly don’t think either of you hate a particular group of people like that, but I just wanted to help moderate the discussion a bit.

DUBAI—Egyptian authorities, fearful that an Israeli military push further into southern Gaza will set off a flood of refugees, are building an 8-square-mile walled enclosure in the Sinai Desert near the border, according to Egyptian officials and security analysts.

For weeks, Egypt has sought to bolster security along the frontier to keep Palestinians out, deploying soldiers and armored vehicles and reinforcing fences. The massive new compound is part of contingency plans if large numbers of Gazans do manage to get in.

More than 100,000 people could be accommodated in the camp, Egyptian officials said. It is surrounded by concrete walls and far from any Egyptian settlements. Large numbers of tents, as yet unassembled, have been delivered to the site, these people said.

With Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu saying his army will need to fight Hamas in Rafah, a Palestinian city on the Egyptian border, Egyptian officials think a broad Israeli offensive could happen within weeks.

In the event of a major exodus of Palestinians from Gaza, Egypt would seek to limit the number of refugees to well below the capacity of the area—ideally to around 50,000 to 60,000—Egyptian officials said.

Egypt has long sought to avoid a flood of refugees from spilling over its borders, even threatening to abandon its decades-old peace treaty with Israel if that occurs as a result of its offensive against Hamas. The fact that Egypt is now urgently proceeding with contingency plans signals that Egyptian officials see a rising danger of such a scenario.

The governor of Egypt’s North Sinai region on Thursday denied initial reports of the construction of a potential refugee camp for Palestinians, saying the activity in the area was part of an effort to take an inventory of houses destroyed during Egypt’s past military campaign against Islamic State extremists in the area.

Israel pulled out of the negotiations over a potential cease-fire deal on Wednesday, heightening fears that the country will move forward with its Rafah offensive. On Thursday, CIA Director William Burns met with Netanyahu and Mossad Director David Barnea to continue talks, according to people familiar with the matter.

President Biden, U.N. officials and Palestinian leaders have also sought to avoid a mass displacement of Palestinians from Gaza, fearing that many wouldn’t be able to return. Israel has said those who leave their homes in Gaza will be allowed to come back. The concern over displacement is especially sensitive for Palestinians because of the exodus from their homes during the war at the creation of Israel in 1948.

“You cannot imagine the terror and fear in the hearts of civilians here in Rafah,” said Fatima Majdi Hamouda, a woman from Beit Lahiya in the northern Gaza Strip who like thousands of others fled to the south in the early days of the war following an Israeli evacuation notice.

“Some people are already on the Egyptian border, and if the bombing intensifies, they will go directly to Sinai. It’s the worst of decisions,” said Hamouda, who is 32 and sheltering with her family in a tent on the edge of Rafah near the Mediterranean.

If Israel does proceed with the offensive on Rafah, the military would seek to move the civilian population northward—out of the battle zone but within the Gaza Strip—a senior Israeli military official said. Israel has also assured the U.S. that it would create a safe corridor to the north, according to a former U.S. official. Israel hasn’t publicly outlined any plan for what it would do with the civilians in the area.

Palestinians who enter the enclosed area wouldn’t be allowed to leave unless they are departing for another country, Egyptian officials said, outlining contingency plans discussed within the government.

If Egypt were to begin accepting a large number of Palestinian refugees, it would tighten entry and exit restrictions on a larger area of the northern Sinai, including the regional capital of Al-Arish, Egyptian officials said.

Sinai Foundation for Human Rights, a nonprofit organization monitoring events in the region, published a report this week documenting the construction of the concrete enclosure, including photos of what it said were concrete walls more than 7 yards high.

The report cited witnesses on the ground and included a map of the rough area of the enclosure. Egyptian officials confirmed to The Wall Street Journal that the area identified by the foundation was the general location of the planned enclosure.

Though many Palestinians living in the enclave are desperate to leave for their own safety, many also oppose any mass migration to Egypt, fearing that they wouldn’t be allowed to return home. Egyptian officials have taken a hard line against Palestinian refugees but some privately concede that an exodus on some level may now be inevitable.

The fortified camp being set up by Egypt could ultimately be used in different ways, said regional officials and analysts. In one scenario, it could serve as a safety net if Palestinians rush the border. In another, Egypt could agree to accept a limited number of Palestinian refugees in return for financial or other incentives, they said.

“It’s a multipronged effort from Egypt to counter any scenario that is not according to its accepted conditions,” said Mohannad Sabry, an Egyptian security analyst and author of a book on Sinai.

The enclosure could serve as a backstop to prevent refugees from flooding over the border unabated. “Even if the Israelis push a million and a half people to spill over the border, Egypt can throw the ball back into Israel’s lap by simply limiting the movement of Palestinians further in,” he said.

Israeli military officials say that they must expand the military operation into Rafah to pursue Hamas leaders and militants who have fled there. Palestinian officials and relief groups have warned that large-scale fighting in the area could result in a humanitarian catastrophe because of the huge civilian population, which includes many thousands of people crammed into tent cities, schools and abandoned buildings in the area.

Within Gaza, 1.7 million people have fled their homes during the war, according to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. Israel has issued evacuation notices urging civilians to leave roughly two-thirds of the strip, according to the U.N. Israel says the evacuations are necessary to protect civilians and give the military a freer hand to fight Hamas.

Israel has been pressuring Egypt to accept a military operation in Rafah, arguing that Israeli forces have to cut off Gaza’s border with Egypt to block Hamas’s ability to smuggle weapons. Egypt has urged Israel not to carry out such an operation, saying that it has already clamped down on underground smuggling tunnels in the area.

On February 16 2024 02:28 Nebuchad wrote:


I think if we loop back to the original exchange that you had with him a few years ago, we see a better representation of Cerebrate's position, because it's something that he wrote to you specifically, as a friend, and not something written in the context of writing to an audience on a forum. I don't know if you'll disagree but I don't see the same kind of rhetoric in that specific post. This post is more about winning, and when you win, you get to dictate the terms on the loser. I don't see a ton of concern for what's happening to those losers, which was the Nakba, an ethnic cleansing, in this specific case. There is a ton of separation for every Israeli organization, this group is self-defense, this group is violent, this group is terrorist, but the other side is "The Arabs".

As for me, I think it's fair to say that I hate Israel in its present form. It's not the exact wording that I would use because my brain is stuck in Geoguessr so if you just say Israel I think about what the country looks like and not about its politics. My hope is that I manage to keep my hatred directed specifically at fascist political systems and at the most exemplary fascist people, figures like Danielle Weiss or Smotrich. If I ended up hating Israelis as a people, I would see that as a failure on my part. While I clearly understand how racist sentiments develop both in Israel and in Palestine given their material conditions, I must ultimately stick to the belief that it's the systems that are problematic more than the people, and if you feel I sometimes go over that line I would like to be called out for it.

On February 15 2024 22:57 Nebuchad wrote:
Cerebrate is obviously hateful in that he takes a situation where a group is being oppressed and destroyed by another group, and he finds quirks and justifications to explain why this is either not happening or not a big deal. My perception of the situation is that, since he's obviously smart, he knows what's happening. He just thinks it's a good thing that it's happening, but also that he shouldn't admit that he thinks that. That he can fool some people with his words speaks to his rhetorical talent, not to his heart. You wouldn't be doing what he's doing if you didn't have hatred.

On February 15 2024 09:59 FriedrichNietzsche wrote:


Cerebrate give me a quick number: what % does "the hostage" situation acccount for what is happening in the last months/weeks.

I am curious.

On February 16 2024 02:28 Nebuchad wrote:

I think if we loop back to the original exchange that you had with him a few years ago, we see a better representation of Cerebrate's position, because it's something that he wrote to you specifically, as a friend, and not something written in the context of writing to an audience on a forum. I don't know if you'll disagree but I don't see the same kind of rhetoric in that specific post. This post is more about winning, and when you win, you get to dictate the terms on the loser. I don't see a ton of concern for what's happening to those losers, which was the Nakba, an ethnic cleansing, in this specific case. There is a ton of separation for every Israeli organization, this group is self-defense, this group is violent, this group is terrorist, but the other side is "The Arabs".

On February 16 2024 12:16 Cerebrate1 wrote:

Your presumptions that lead you to this conclusion are:

1. Your understanding of the conflict is accurate. (This is fair. Most people assume their own stance to be true, at least until encountering evidence to the contrary. I have actually brought a lot of evidence to the contrary that you haven't disputed, but you could still weigh your own points more heavily than mine in moral relevance [as Ryzel summarized] if you'd like.)

2. No rational person could possibly see this conflict differently than you. (This is a baffling assumption to make about a conflict that is so clearly divisive the world over. You really think that all nations and individuals who support Israel are hateful and [b]intentionally deceptive about their beliefs? [\b] It seems to me that there is a bit of hubris in believing that no intelligent person could legitimately disagree with you on a topic as complex as this.)

On February 16 2024 23:10 ChristianS wrote:
“Local Arabs didn’t even call themselves [Palestinians] yet?” Is that… true? The region had been called “Palestine” for nearly a couple thousand years, hadn’t it?

On February 16 2024 23:25 JimmiC wrote:
Ya, it was initially Greek, then the Roman’s brought it back when they took over, then it stopped again until the ottomans lost control and Brits brought it back.

I could be wrong but I’m not sure if Palestinians have really ever had self determination, basically just taken over by different over and over. Even right now it’s a battle between Israel and Iran for control. When Isreal won the war it was part of Jordan and Syria, not even one country, they have a pretty terrible history.

On February 16 2024 23:54 mcxds wrote:

Cerebrate1 has talked about this in Post #3928 in this Thread.