EPTThings Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 216
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria3880 Posts
On February 15 2024 09:29 Jockmcplop wrote: It seems to me that the civilians have been systematically pushed into Rafah, rather than it being an unfortunate consequence of circumstances. You don't get over a million people in an area that tiny by accident. The problem here is that there is now a standoff. Its pretty hard for Israel to do anything at all without causing absolute carnage among civilians, so I don't really see what their endgame could possibly be. The pro-Israel camp has justified all future deaths regardless of the count and regardless of the destruction. There is no limit. War is peace. | ||
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FriedrichNietzsche
92 Posts
On February 15 2024 09:00 Cerebrate1 wrote: Oh, I never said it was easy or pleasant. War is hell and should never be entered into lightly. Reasonable alternatives are almost always preferable if they are available. I'm sure the IDF was hoping for a better alternative to arise by the time they got to this juncture instead of a second mass evacuation as well. But negotiations aren't going well and it seems like Hamas leadership and the hostages have been moved south to Rafah. Cerebrate give me a quick number: what % does "the hostage" situation acccount for what is happening in the last months/weeks. I am curious. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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FriedrichNietzsche
92 Posts
On February 15 2024 10:00 JimmiC wrote: The problem with the Israelis are evil fan fiction you keep writing is you miss any nuance making it wholly unrealistic. He did not write that? | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24973 Posts
On February 15 2024 10:12 JimmiC wrote: You are not aware that basically all Israelis are pro Israel? Even the ones who are anti war are pro Israel, basically every Jewish person in the world is pro Israel. So when you write what MP writes you are calling all Israelis and likely all Jewish people evil. Whether or not that is intended or not only he knows, but that is the message he is writing with his hot takes. Within a thread that massively discusses the Israeli/Palestine conflict almost exclusively, I feel contextually ‘pro-Israel camp’ should be pretty likely to be referring to ‘pro Israel’s conduct in this conflict’ rather than ‘pro Israel existing’. And in addition MP goes on to talk specifically about deaths, destruction and indeed war. Sure crossed wires happen, but how did you pivot that all the way over to ‘…likely all Jewish people evil’ being the messaging here? In fairness you did add a caveat regarding intent, but it’s a ludicrously uncharitable interpretation of what he wrote. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13972 Posts
On February 15 2024 08:05 Cerebrate1 wrote: I don't think anyone ever said Rafah would be some sort of permanent war free zone. The IDF just encouraged civilians to evacuate the areas they were planning to engage Hamas in in the North. Once no countries accepted Gazan refugees to areas entirely outside of Hamas control, it was basically inevitable (short of a Hamas surrender) that the IDF would eventually move South and have to ask Gazans to evacuate a second time. Evacuate where? | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21624 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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FriedrichNietzsche
92 Posts
Exactly.. | ||
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FriedrichNietzsche
92 Posts
On February 15 2024 22:47 JimmiC wrote: More or less ludicrous than his interpretation of everyone of Cerebrates posts? There is plenty of actual bad things the IDF is doing and saying they are doing to talk about that there is no need to pretend someone knows what they “actually want to do”. The power imbalance is such (and MP spent ample time discussing the power imbalance this is why he thinks IDF has all agency and this is Hamas only option) that the IDF can do what every they want. If they actually wanted to kill as many Palestinians as possible they simply would, they easily could. You can discuss how they are willing to destroy massive amounts of civilian infrastructure to get Hamas. You can discuss how they are willing to kill more civilians, even children, to get Hamas. You can talk about how wrong that is. How it will create an endless loop of hate. There is plenty of other real things you can discuss. But when you start moving into the “they want them all dead” category, you end up dangerously close to the blood libel category of antisemitism. Next there is absolutely no need to be a complete asshole to Cerebrate1 every time he posts. Disagree with what he actually says do not make fan fiction about what MP thinks he really feels, especially when that is so hateful. It basically shows a mirror into how MP feels as Cerebrate1 has never exposed hate. The interesting thing about this site is you have people all over the world with different backgrounds and experiences. The different opinions are what makes it interesting. Cerebrate has a way more in depth knowledge than anyone else here on the conflict. I’m not saying you have to agree but the bar is pretty low at not transforming everything he says into some hateful message he never gave. Even with how powerful Israel is in terms or propaganda and how closely allied with USA they can not actually do whatever they want. I always cringe like hell when I hear this argument. I heard it in 2-3 "Destiny vs X debates" too. "Why are there only X amount of dead" when there could be twice or 3x 4x that number. I dont think any nation is so powerful that in can actually OPENLY exterminate hundred thousands without facing lashback/ problems. Not even Israel. tell me / quote me where precisely MP said that "they want them all dead" - I dont see it. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12144 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12144 Posts
On February 15 2024 23:13 JimmiC wrote: Clearly you know this is your presumption and not factual correct? You can choose to believe it, but it is a hateful interpretation of his words. I choose to not take the hateful interpretation. The reasons are in his words but also in reading about Israeli politics and culture. He can correct me if I’m wrong but I would guess he would fall center or perhaps even center right. He is open to a 2 state solution and he would be completely willing to end the settlements if some sort of lasting peace was agreed upon. There are Israelis that hold the views you presume Cerebrate1 to hold, maybe upwards of 15%. But none of his words have said that, so why be so sure of the worst? Why not use your facts an knowledge to counter his posts with your truth? Even if you are right, which I do not believe you to be, why wouldn’t you use his strategy but beat him with the truth? It would be far more interesting and informative than to have a couple of people twisting what ever he says to the most evil possibility and then insult him. It’s lazy and weak. Yes I agree we have a different opinion, which is what is beautiful about this forum. I'm fine with that. That 15% figure is very low there friend, you might want to update that. A culture that is exposed to a lot of propaganda by the far right, constantly, will develop views that are in line with the far right's vision, unfortunately. It is true that it's a common problem for me that when someone is either saying nonsense or dishonest, I tend to assume that they're dishonest, so that's a bias that I have. I have often found that I agree with the sentiment that "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity" sure does a lot of heavy lifting for malice. But I don't think it's happening in this specific situation. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24973 Posts
On February 15 2024 22:47 JimmiC wrote: More or less ludicrous than his interpretation of everyone of Cerebrates posts? There is plenty of actual bad things the IDF is doing and saying they are doing to talk about that there is no need to pretend someone knows what they “actually want to do”. The power imbalance is such (and MP spent ample time discussing the power imbalance this is why he thinks IDF has all agency and this is Hamas only option) that the IDF can do what every they want. If they actually wanted to kill as many Palestinians as possible they simply would, they easily could. You can discuss how they are willing to destroy massive amounts of civilian infrastructure to get Hamas. You can discuss how they are willing to kill more civilians, even children, to get Hamas. You can talk about how wrong that is. How it will create an endless loop of hate. There is plenty of other real things you can discuss. But when you start moving into the “they want them all dead” category, you end up dangerously close to the blood libel category of antisemitism. Next there is absolutely no need to be a complete asshole to Cerebrate1 every time he posts. Disagree with what he actually says do not make fan fiction about what MP thinks he really feels, especially when that is so hateful. It basically shows a mirror into how MP feels as Cerebrate1 has never exposed hate. The interesting thing about this site is you have people all over the world with different backgrounds and experiences. The different opinions are what makes it interesting. Cerebrate has a way more in depth knowledge than anyone else here on the conflict. I’m not saying you have to agree but the bar is pretty low at not transforming everything he says into some hateful message he never gave. Sure but it’s that difference between, if one feels so positioned, ‘your angle on this is bollocks’, and jumping a couple of steps to making wider claims about Jews as a wider collective, it’s specifically the latter I have issues with. Maybe it’s a cultural thing, I don’t know. Israel is obviously still considered a Jewish state over here, but less considered as any kind of representative or avatar for Jewish people outside of its borders. Jewishness is a lot less represented in our wider culture too, at least visibly. You’ll hear a prominent actor is Jewish and go ‘oh I didn’t know that, cool’, you don’t have too many Mel Brooks or Larry David types who are very prominent and whose comedy pokes fun of certain Jewish stereotypes. Wires may be being crossed merely, but from where I’m situated and spitballing it feels there’s a much closer association between Jews and Israel across the Atlantic, especially the US, whereas we tend to treat them as separate, discrete entities. So something I may casually say and just assume is a contained criticism of Israel that will be received as such, will actually be perceived as something with a wider scope than I intended. Agreed that Cerebrate posts well and provides a valuable perspective, and that across the board we probably should try not to be dicks to each other wherever possible. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12144 Posts
On February 16 2024 00:26 JimmiC wrote: I don’t think it’s stupidity or malice, I think it is what he says is true to him. We disagree a fair bit actually it just gets drowned out because I’m not insulting him. Calling it one or the other is needlessly insulting, I’m not sure why you feel the need to go there so often, unlike some you are capable of much more and better and show it with some consistency. I get my 15% from the polling, that I have shared, where do you get your above 15% from? And how high do you estimate it to be? For example this: https://time.com/6333781/israel-hamas-poll-palestine/ "Poll results were also hawkish when it came to the use of force in Gaza: 57.5% of Israeli Jews said that they believed the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) were using too little firepower in Gaza, 36.6% said the IDF was using an appropriate amount of firepower, while just 1.8% said they believed the IDF was using too much fire power, while 4.2% said they weren’t sure whether it was using too much or too little firepower." | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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