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On November 10 2020 03:04 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2020 02:40 Neneu wrote:On November 10 2020 02:19 Simberto wrote:On November 10 2020 02:12 Starlightsun wrote:
Election night party... lose the presidency and give everybody covid.
Re: Wegandi's comments of the working class conservatives being "talked down to", goes to show the power of pandering in American politics. You can rob people blind so long as you pretend you are on their team. I guess Democrats do the same with minorities but not as egregiously and with less collateral damage. Honestly, if you vote for Trump you kind of deserve to be "talked down to", because you are clearly not a responsible adult. Clearly you have never met any Trump voters who are living a quite shitty life. Gonna have to throw some whiteness into this one. Trump voters are living quite a shitty life "for white people". Highly doubt they are worse off than the average poor person of color in urban areas... (thanks for your answer about libs in Norway btw)
Only if You dont consider Eastern Europeans and Balkans white.
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On November 10 2020 03:04 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2020 02:40 Neneu wrote:On November 10 2020 02:19 Simberto wrote:On November 10 2020 02:12 Starlightsun wrote:
Election night party... lose the presidency and give everybody covid.
Re: Wegandi's comments of the working class conservatives being "talked down to", goes to show the power of pandering in American politics. You can rob people blind so long as you pretend you are on their team. I guess Democrats do the same with minorities but not as egregiously and with less collateral damage. Honestly, if you vote for Trump you kind of deserve to be "talked down to", because you are clearly not a responsible adult. Clearly you have never met any Trump voters who are living a quite shitty life. Gonna have to throw some whiteness into this one. Trump voters are living quite a shitty life "for white people". Highly doubt they are worse off than the average poor person of color in urban areas... (thanks for your answer about libs in Norway btw)
There are of course degrees of shittines. However it is not a competition, the focus should be on improving the life for everyone who are struggling to make the ends meet or living a life without a future. A lot of the citizens in previous coal towns or farmers in the flyover states aren't exactly living the dream life. Historically, at least in Europe, they are some of the people (aka people with shitty lives) who the left have cared the most about. That's why we e.g. got original pension in Norway in 1932 (implemented 1936), to help those who lived a long poor life where they worked long and hard with forestry or on the farm.
My point is that there are very understandable reasons why some of them voted Trump, in a nation where they feel abandoned. Rather than talking down to them, one should listen to what they have to say and try to improve their impoverished lives. Same as one should do for anyone who are living a shitty life in US. Fix the institutional failures and make them understand that what the Left is proposing, will actually improve their lives. Since after all, they should be one of your core voters, but atm they are the opposite.
(Oh and no worries )
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On November 10 2020 03:29 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2020 03:04 Nebuchad wrote:On November 10 2020 02:40 Neneu wrote:On November 10 2020 02:19 Simberto wrote:On November 10 2020 02:12 Starlightsun wrote:
Election night party... lose the presidency and give everybody covid.
Re: Wegandi's comments of the working class conservatives being "talked down to", goes to show the power of pandering in American politics. You can rob people blind so long as you pretend you are on their team. I guess Democrats do the same with minorities but not as egregiously and with less collateral damage. Honestly, if you vote for Trump you kind of deserve to be "talked down to", because you are clearly not a responsible adult. Clearly you have never met any Trump voters who are living a quite shitty life. Gonna have to throw some whiteness into this one. Trump voters are living quite a shitty life "for white people". Highly doubt they are worse off than the average poor person of color in urban areas... (thanks for your answer about libs in Norway btw) Only if You dont consider Eastern Europeans and Balkans white.
I was thinking of US context rather than world context but, I mean, sure, Eastern Europe and the Balkans are definitely less white in this analysis.
On November 10 2020 03:45 Neneu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2020 03:04 Nebuchad wrote:On November 10 2020 02:40 Neneu wrote:On November 10 2020 02:19 Simberto wrote:On November 10 2020 02:12 Starlightsun wrote:
Election night party... lose the presidency and give everybody covid.
Re: Wegandi's comments of the working class conservatives being "talked down to", goes to show the power of pandering in American politics. You can rob people blind so long as you pretend you are on their team. I guess Democrats do the same with minorities but not as egregiously and with less collateral damage. Honestly, if you vote for Trump you kind of deserve to be "talked down to", because you are clearly not a responsible adult. Clearly you have never met any Trump voters who are living a quite shitty life. Gonna have to throw some whiteness into this one. Trump voters are living quite a shitty life "for white people". Highly doubt they are worse off than the average poor person of color in urban areas... (thanks for your answer about libs in Norway btw) There are of course degrees of shittines. However it is not a competition, the focus should be on improving the life for everyone who are struggling to make the ends meet or living a life without a future. A lot of the citizens in previous coal towns or farmers in the flyover states aren't exactly living the dream life. Historically, at least in Europe, they are some of the people (aka people with shitty lives) who the left have cared the most about. That's why we e.g. got original pension in Norway in 1932 (implemented 1936), to help those who lived a long poor life where they worked long and hard with forestry or on the farm. My point is that there are very understandable reasons why some of them voted Trump, in a nation where they feel abandoned. Rather than talking down to them, one should listen to what they have to say and try to improve their impoverished lives. Same as one should do for anyone who are living a shitty life in US. Fix the institutional failures and make them understand that what the Left is proposing, will actually improve their lives. Since after all, they should be one of your core voters, but atm they are the opposite. (Oh and no worries )
I think voting for Trump is perfectly understandable but I think it's a little more complicated than just "they're poor". The idea of being above other people, while still poor, should definitely be part of that analysis imo.
So you live in a "meritocratic" system and you're at the bottom, the system is telling you that you don't deserve a good life because you're lacking in skills or intelligence. You might perceive that it's unjust because you know yourself, you're quite a solid human, you shouldn't be at the bottom. You remember however a time in which some other people were treated worse than you because of their identity, instead of their skills, and you still see a lot of evidence of that former world around you. By reinforcing the systems that caused other people to be below you before, you think you're going to improve your own conditions. There is a logic there. It's egoistic, it's unlikely to bring the result they want and it is plagued by capitalist realism, but it is understandable.
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Its also fed by Republicans imo, they don't want that mentality to die out when it makes for such a fervent base of voters. Its hard to educate these people about this stuff because Republicans want to keep them feeling above others without appreciating the ones above all of us.
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I don't necessarily think they all believe that they are above others. Some definitely do, but there are good segment of them who don't really care about stuff like that. They just want the opportunity to live a decent life. However, a lot of people in power have more use of people living shitty lives fighting each other, rather than them.
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On a tangentially related note, folks should not discount the impact that the widespread closure of dining rooms has had on the psyche of quotidian America, the incredible amounts of abuse that serving staff have endured during 'rona times tells a tale of a population of people that thrive on petty subjugations of the kind our society turns on (or used to, at least).
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On November 10 2020 04:09 Neneu wrote:
I don't necessarily think they all believe that they are above others. Some definitely do, but there are good segment of them who don't really care about stuff like that. They just want the opportunity to live a decent life. However, a lot of people in power have more use of people living shitty lives fighting each other, rather than them.
They might not be conscious of it but there are two ways to create decent lives for a person that's at the bottom, you can either reduce the inequalities in the social hierarchy or you can fuck over some other people to get treated better. By choosing Trump they pick the second option. It is true that because the left is so weak in the US (and in the world to an extent), the first option hasn't really been presented to them. I have no doubt that a good percentage of them would pick the first option if they could - and if you manage to deprogram the negative associations that come with 'socialism' in their mind. Historically in Europe, a lot of similar people did.
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On November 10 2020 04:14 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2020 04:09 Neneu wrote:
I don't necessarily think they all believe that they are above others. Some definitely do, but there are good segment of them who don't really care about stuff like that. They just want the opportunity to live a decent life. However, a lot of people in power have more use of people living shitty lives fighting each other, rather than them. They might not be conscious of it but there are two ways to create decent lives for a person that's at the bottom, you can either reduce the inequalities in the social hierarchy or you can fuck over some other people to get treated better. By choosing Trump they pick the second option. It is true that because the left is so weak in the US (and in the world to an extent), the first option hasn't really been presented to them. I have no doubt that a good percentage of them would pick the first option if they could - and if you manage to deprogram the negative associations that come with 'socialism' in their mind. Historically in Europe, a lot of similar people did.
From our point of view, they chose the second. However if you talk to them, you will find that a lot of them are of the opinion that they chose the first option. There is a mismatch of how we view the world and it can only be solved by listening.
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On November 10 2020 03:16 Nevuk wrote:Trump has fired Mike Esper, Secretary of Defense. I've never heard of his replacement. edit: His wikipedia page is literally two (three after a refresh) sentences long. No idea if this "unanimous confirmation" claim is correct. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_C._Miller
Esper was one of the few remaining government officials who seemed to be decent, level-headed people. A prime candidate for a lame-duck culling.
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On the other hand, I think it's also hard to generalize Trump voters to the poor and uneducated. Apparently my parents voted for Trump, and they're well-educated, solidly middle class first-generation immigrants. However, when I asked them a bit about why they voted the way they did, their reasons seemed rather superficial and misinformed. I think similar sorts of voters are found across the social and wealth spectrum, and they're political wildcards that can feel unintuitive to identify and win over.
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Trump's definitely doing his best to require that whoever replaces him better have been taking good notes on all the shit they'll have to undo, and people to replace. He's gonna spend the next 2 months throwing the highest temper tantrum in all the land.
+ Show Spoiler +As if I could distinguish that from the past 4 years. lol
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On November 10 2020 05:01 eviltomahawk wrote:
On the other hand, I think it's also hard to generalize Trump voters to the poor and uneducated. Apparently my parents voted for Trump, and they're well-educated, solidly middle class first-generation immigrants. However, when I asked them a bit about why they voted the way they did, their reasons seemed rather superficial and misinformed. I think similar sorts of voters are found across the social and wealth spectrum, and they're political wildcards that can feel unintuitive to identify and win over.
The focus on the lower class Trump voters isnt because theyre all of his base imo, mostly that they're the part of Trump's base that progressives are going to be most able to appeal to since progressive policies are all about the working class and such.
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Yes, Republicans use no identity politics, Trump definitely doesn't use identity politics, appealing to any demographic, which basically all politicians do, is definitely not identity politics.
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On November 10 2020 05:15 Zambrah wrote:
Yes, Republicans use no identity politics, Trump definitely doesn't use identity politics, appealing to any demographic, which basically all politicians do, is definitely not identity politics.
Is this where I believe Trump the white supremacist received the highest minority vote total of any Republican in...I don't know a very long time. I suppose your hypothesis is they're all just dumb or misinformed or racist themselves (Cubans racist against Mexicans, etc. etc.).
Plus, nice deflection there. It couldn't be that minorities hate privileged white college educated folks telling them what and how to think, call themselves, etc.
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Do you also complain about there being no "Straight Pride" month during LGBTQ+ Pride? Here's the inside scoop that breaks it all down for you: every month is Straight Pride Month, by default.
The reason we have to play "Identity Politics" is because we have an extremely exclusionary default. When the existing power dynamic - especially among Republicans - prohibits anything but Christian White Men from holding office, they don't have to advertise themselves. Doesn't mean they're not playing those vile Identity Politics you dislike so much.
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United States43982 Posts
On November 10 2020 05:15 Zambrah wrote:
Yes, Republicans use no identity politics, Trump definitely doesn't use identity politics, appealing to any demographic, which basically all politicians do, is definitely not identity politics.
It's baffling that conservatives don't see a specific appeal to the return to the white male Christian dominated past, encapsulated by MAGA, as identity politics. It's like how if the country is 70% white and 30% non white they believe that tv should feature 100% white people because white is the default and that anyone non white is some kind of intrusion by diversity obsessed leftists. They're a narrow identity group that has convinced themselves that they're the default and that it means they can't be an identity group. That "Happy Holidays" is identity politics but that "Merry Christmas" is not.
No-one is more invested in identity politics than the modern conservatives.
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On November 10 2020 05:21 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2020 05:15 Zambrah wrote:
Yes, Republicans use no identity politics, Trump definitely doesn't use identity politics, appealing to any demographic, which basically all politicians do, is definitely not identity politics. Is this where I believe Trump the white supremacist received the highest minority vote total of any Republican in...I don't know a very long time. I suppose your hypothesis is they're all just dumb or misinformed or racist themselves (Cubans racist against Mexicans, etc. etc.). Plus, nice deflection there. It couldn't be that minorities hate privileged white college educated folks telling them what and how to think, call themselves, etc.
I'm positive youre in a position to speak for what minorities hate, lol
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On November 10 2020 05:24 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2020 05:21 Wegandi wrote:On November 10 2020 05:15 Zambrah wrote:
Yes, Republicans use no identity politics, Trump definitely doesn't use identity politics, appealing to any demographic, which basically all politicians do, is definitely not identity politics. Is this where I believe Trump the white supremacist received the highest minority vote total of any Republican in...I don't know a very long time. I suppose your hypothesis is they're all just dumb or misinformed or racist themselves (Cubans racist against Mexicans, etc. etc.). Plus, nice deflection there. It couldn't be that minorities hate privileged white college educated folks telling them what and how to think, call themselves, etc. I'm positive youre in a position to speak for what minorities hate, lol
My White-ass Trump voting father loved to speak for minorities, women, and people in other countries. Conveniently, every single person who would upturn his ass-backwards worldview.
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EPT
