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On November 08 2020 08:39 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2020 08:21 LegalLord wrote:On November 08 2020 07:54 Nevuk wrote:On November 08 2020 07:42 LegalLord wrote:If it’s not for corporate handouts, there simply aren’t enough trillions in the budget to afford something like getting rid of student debt. The money just isn’t there. I feel like you're being sarcastic, but am not 100% sure. If Biden doesn't do it, the GOP candidate elected in 2024 will, debt be damned. That's how much of a non starter the idea of not doing it is. Unless you're from the US you don't really have an idea of just how badly the <40 crowd has been affected by US student loans. This on top of going through a great recession and covid, both of which are going to damage our long term earnings. It is simply impossible to not cave to the biggest demand of the biggest voting bloc. Student debt was eventually going to be eliminated, that was obvious at least 8 years ago. Saying that you'll eliminate student debt then failing to do so is standard fare for getting a momentary bump in support from gullible young people. Delay payment and offer new repayment options, certainly - but no way, no how can it simply be written off. For instance, the housing bubble will collapse once people realize millennials literally can't afford houses. Student debt is just one of the many trillion-dollar debt bubbles that the US has, and not even the smartest one to tackle (given that unless you deal with the fundamental problem of education costs, it won't matter in the end). But promising it then failing to deliver is one of the best ways to make a million indebted graduates quiver with anticipation for debt relief. Student debt is different in that our entire economy is predicated on 25-55 year olds spending above their means, and student debt means that this "demo" will be spending 1/10 of what boomers did at their age. The economy will die if they don't stop the payments. For instance, the housing bubble will explode if people realize that millennials are too poor to buy housing. If these were debts being paid to a private company that'd be one thing. Instead, it's just straight to the government : these are essentially taxes that are narrowly targeted at a specific age group. Our older generations cut taxes and instead made us take out loans for things they got from their parent's taxes (education, which used to be far cheaper due to state funding). Whether the economy's current structure SHOULD die is a different question, but there's definitely no will to kick that hornet's nest (as should be indicated by this coming from Schumer, rather than Pelosi. For all that Pelosi is something of a centrist, she's always been much more open to progressive policies than Chuck).
Your mistake is not in seeing student debt as important, but in thinking that it's somehow unique. There are many classes of debts in the US that shackle people to a poor economic situation. Being stuck with student debts is not much different than a car payment, house payment, medical bill, etc., that people can't afford that stops them from making other purchases more beneficial to the consumption-based economy. Each of these are trillion-dollar debt traps that show no sign of slowing down. The only real unique thing about student debt is that it's majority owned by the government, which means I suppose they could write it off if they're up for a haircut of a third of the federal government's assets. They're obviously no more interested in that than in unwinding the circumstances of all the other forms of self-destructive debt the US has spun up over the years for the majority of the population.
Not that it matters anyways, since young people don't vote. Not worth wasting the effort it'd take to help them.
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United States10530 Posts
Fantastic speech. Hope, empathy, unity, determination, I could go on about what that speech sounded like to me. 78 year old, sounded like a freshman senator making his first victory speech. America is behind you Joe, go prove to us you're the man we need right now.
Awesome fireworks show too. Time to grab myself a drink and enjoy the night.
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Bisutopia19371 Posts
On November 08 2020 10:57 Oukka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2020 10:49 BisuDagger wrote:On November 08 2020 10:47 WombaT wrote:On November 08 2020 10:01 KungKras wrote:
There's something satisfying in the atmosphere of the crowd.
Just this deep feeling of relief that runs through everything. Jesus yeah. Feels good man. No doubt tomorrow I'll return to being pissed off but this feels, temporarily, nice. Just grab a bottle of buckfest and enjoy the night! That stuff doesn't make even the night enjoyable. And the next day would be even worse.
It’s the Scottish national drink! 
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United States10530 Posts
My friends: So FlaSh, how does it feel having voted for the winner the past two presidential elections?
IM JUST A WINNER BABYYYYYY
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Not usually one to post tweets, but as Biden and Harris deliver a much-needed speech to a deeply burned country, Trump's group of Only the Best People outperforms the creative genius at The Onion.
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Northern Ireland27235 Posts
On November 08 2020 11:15 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2020 08:39 Nevuk wrote:On November 08 2020 08:21 LegalLord wrote:On November 08 2020 07:54 Nevuk wrote:On November 08 2020 07:42 LegalLord wrote:If it’s not for corporate handouts, there simply aren’t enough trillions in the budget to afford something like getting rid of student debt. The money just isn’t there. I feel like you're being sarcastic, but am not 100% sure. If Biden doesn't do it, the GOP candidate elected in 2024 will, debt be damned. That's how much of a non starter the idea of not doing it is. Unless you're from the US you don't really have an idea of just how badly the <40 crowd has been affected by US student loans. This on top of going through a great recession and covid, both of which are going to damage our long term earnings. It is simply impossible to not cave to the biggest demand of the biggest voting bloc. Student debt was eventually going to be eliminated, that was obvious at least 8 years ago. Saying that you'll eliminate student debt then failing to do so is standard fare for getting a momentary bump in support from gullible young people. Delay payment and offer new repayment options, certainly - but no way, no how can it simply be written off. For instance, the housing bubble will collapse once people realize millennials literally can't afford houses. Student debt is just one of the many trillion-dollar debt bubbles that the US has, and not even the smartest one to tackle (given that unless you deal with the fundamental problem of education costs, it won't matter in the end). But promising it then failing to deliver is one of the best ways to make a million indebted graduates quiver with anticipation for debt relief. Student debt is different in that our entire economy is predicated on 25-55 year olds spending above their means, and student debt means that this "demo" will be spending 1/10 of what boomers did at their age. The economy will die if they don't stop the payments. For instance, the housing bubble will explode if people realize that millennials are too poor to buy housing. If these were debts being paid to a private company that'd be one thing. Instead, it's just straight to the government : these are essentially taxes that are narrowly targeted at a specific age group. Our older generations cut taxes and instead made us take out loans for things they got from their parent's taxes (education, which used to be far cheaper due to state funding). Whether the economy's current structure SHOULD die is a different question, but there's definitely no will to kick that hornet's nest (as should be indicated by this coming from Schumer, rather than Pelosi. For all that Pelosi is something of a centrist, she's always been much more open to progressive policies than Chuck). Your mistake is not in seeing student debt as important, but in thinking that it's somehow unique. There are many classes of debts in the US that shackle people to a poor economic situation. Being stuck with student debts is not much different than a car payment, house payment, medical bill, etc., that people can't afford that stops them from making other purchases more beneficial to the consumption-based economy. Each of these are trillion-dollar debt traps that show no sign of slowing down. The only real unique thing about student debt is that it's majority owned by the government, which means I suppose they could write it off if they're up for a haircut of a third of the federal government's assets. They're obviously no more interested in that than in unwinding the circumstances of all the other forms of self-destructive debt the US has spun up over the years for the majority of the population. Not that it matters anyways, since young people don't vote. Not worth wasting the effort it'd take to help them.
They don’t stay young forever.
That said I don’t think the forms of debt are necessarily that comparable. Yeah you’re paying car debt off, but a car is quite a useful thing to have. More so in areas of America than over here given both city planning and transport links. Quite useful to have in terms of employment too. Yeah a house can be pretty pricey and cut spending on various nick-knacks, but you’re on the ladder and there’s some long-term stability benefits. Also I’m not sure of such things as I’m perpetually broke but mortgage payments don’t have to be much more than rent right?
You still at least have something in the tradeoff. Many students do subsequently have the earning boost that make the debt accrued more than worthwhile. For those that do not they’re not just saddled with debt that confers them nothing much in return, there’s also the matter of years deferred from entering the job market.
As someone who is beyond broke having started degree number 2, from a purely selfish point of view making it cheaper or free would be nice (and our fees are small fry compared to across the Atlantic), I do think the overall college/university pipeline is just fundamentally broken and in need of more nuanced reform than merely subsidising the end users of the broken system.
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Northern Ireland27235 Posts
On November 08 2020 11:30 FlaShFTW wrote:
My friends: So FlaSh, how does it feel having voted for the winner the past two presidential elections?
IM JUST A WINNER BABYYYYYY
Are you a winner at the soul level having voted for Trump last time though?
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United States44205 Posts
On November 08 2020 08:21 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2020 07:54 Nevuk wrote:On November 08 2020 07:42 LegalLord wrote:If it’s not for corporate handouts, there simply aren’t enough trillions in the budget to afford something like getting rid of student debt. The money just isn’t there. I feel like you're being sarcastic, but am not 100% sure. If Biden doesn't do it, the GOP candidate elected in 2024 will, debt be damned. That's how much of a non starter the idea of not doing it is. Unless you're from the US you don't really have an idea of just how badly the <40 crowd has been affected by US student loans. This on top of going through a great recession and covid, both of which are going to damage our long term earnings. It is simply impossible to not cave to the biggest demand of the biggest voting bloc. Student debt was eventually going to be eliminated, that was obvious at least 8 years ago. Saying that you'll eliminate student debt then failing to do so is standard fare for getting a momentary bump in support from gullible young people. Delay payment and offer new repayment options, certainly - but no way, no how can it simply be written off. Student debt is just one of the many trillion-dollar debt bubbles that the US has, and not even the smartest one to tackle (given that unless you deal with the fundamental problem of education costs, it won't matter in the end). But promising it then failing to deliver is one of the best ways to make a million indebted graduates quiver with anticipation for debt relief.
The government can write off Federal student debt. It’s their debt. They can do it whenever they want. As for paying for it, apparently deficits don’t matter and you can do what you like. The amount of loan payments students make must be less than the $4,000,000,000,000 Trump borrowed for his budget.
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I can't wait for the lore on the Four Seasons Total Landscaping decision to come out. Did they realize before or after they put the address in the car navigation.
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On November 08 2020 11:44 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
I can't wait for the lore on the Four Seasons Total Landscaping decision to come out. Did they realize before or after they put the address in the car navigation.
They wanted to get the Four Seasons Hotel, but they Trumped it up.
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On November 08 2020 11:15 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2020 08:39 Nevuk wrote:On November 08 2020 08:21 LegalLord wrote:On November 08 2020 07:54 Nevuk wrote:On November 08 2020 07:42 LegalLord wrote:If it’s not for corporate handouts, there simply aren’t enough trillions in the budget to afford something like getting rid of student debt. The money just isn’t there. I feel like you're being sarcastic, but am not 100% sure. If Biden doesn't do it, the GOP candidate elected in 2024 will, debt be damned. That's how much of a non starter the idea of not doing it is. Unless you're from the US you don't really have an idea of just how badly the <40 crowd has been affected by US student loans. This on top of going through a great recession and covid, both of which are going to damage our long term earnings. It is simply impossible to not cave to the biggest demand of the biggest voting bloc. Student debt was eventually going to be eliminated, that was obvious at least 8 years ago. Saying that you'll eliminate student debt then failing to do so is standard fare for getting a momentary bump in support from gullible young people. Delay payment and offer new repayment options, certainly - but no way, no how can it simply be written off. For instance, the housing bubble will collapse once people realize millennials literally can't afford houses. Student debt is just one of the many trillion-dollar debt bubbles that the US has, and not even the smartest one to tackle (given that unless you deal with the fundamental problem of education costs, it won't matter in the end). But promising it then failing to deliver is one of the best ways to make a million indebted graduates quiver with anticipation for debt relief. Student debt is different in that our entire economy is predicated on 25-55 year olds spending above their means, and student debt means that this "demo" will be spending 1/10 of what boomers did at their age. The economy will die if they don't stop the payments. For instance, the housing bubble will explode if people realize that millennials are too poor to buy housing. If these were debts being paid to a private company that'd be one thing. Instead, it's just straight to the government : these are essentially taxes that are narrowly targeted at a specific age group. Our older generations cut taxes and instead made us take out loans for things they got from their parent's taxes (education, which used to be far cheaper due to state funding). Whether the economy's current structure SHOULD die is a different question, but there's definitely no will to kick that hornet's nest (as should be indicated by this coming from Schumer, rather than Pelosi. For all that Pelosi is something of a centrist, she's always been much more open to progressive policies than Chuck). Your mistake is not in seeing student debt as important, but in thinking that it's somehow unique. There are many classes of debts in the US that shackle people to a poor economic situation. Being stuck with student debts is not much different than a car payment, house payment, medical bill, etc., that people can't afford that stops them from making other purchases more beneficial to the consumption-based economy. Each of these are trillion-dollar debt traps that show no sign of slowing down. The only real unique thing about student debt is that it's majority owned by the government, which means I suppose they could write it off if they're up for a haircut of a third of the federal government's assets. They're obviously no more interested in that than in unwinding the circumstances of all the other forms of self-destructive debt the US has spun up over the years for the majority of the population. Not that it matters anyways, since young people don't vote. Not worth wasting the effort it'd take to help them.
Um, millennials+genz+genx were the largest voting group already 2 years ago. This isn't true, in the slightest.
![[image loading]](https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/FT_19.05.23_GenerationsVoting_YoungergenerationsoutvotedBoomerpriorgenerations2018.png?resize=420,704)
We're not only talking about Gen Z and young millenials only (who still voted at 56% rates in 2020). We aren't talking about 20 year olds. Student debt has been an issue in the US for anyone whose college years happened after 1996.
I'm not arguing a value proposition here. I'm telling you, it's going to happen, regardless of how stupid of an idea it is to do it without systematic reform (I agree, very). That it's being proposed by known radical leftist, Chuck Schumer, should tell you that it's inevitable. It being owned purely by the government really does make it very different from those other issues. And the government has bailed out those bubbles when they've crashed in the past (specifically Real Estate and Cars).
It's not a coincidence that as soon as milennials over took baby boomers as the biggest voting group, even Trump was deferring student loans.
It's also generally viewed as an investment by the government to have an educated populace, which is how it usually gets spun.
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On November 08 2020 11:50 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2020 11:44 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
I can't wait for the lore on the Four Seasons Total Landscaping decision to come out. Did they realize before or after they put the address in the car navigation. They wanted to get the Four Seasons Hotel, but they Trumped it up.
In the rusty lot of a landscaping company, between a dildo shop and a crematorium, it's the most fitting end to the Trump presidency that no one could have predicted.
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On November 08 2020 11:37 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2020 11:15 LegalLord wrote:On November 08 2020 08:39 Nevuk wrote:On November 08 2020 08:21 LegalLord wrote:On November 08 2020 07:54 Nevuk wrote:On November 08 2020 07:42 LegalLord wrote:If it’s not for corporate handouts, there simply aren’t enough trillions in the budget to afford something like getting rid of student debt. The money just isn’t there. I feel like you're being sarcastic, but am not 100% sure. If Biden doesn't do it, the GOP candidate elected in 2024 will, debt be damned. That's how much of a non starter the idea of not doing it is. Unless you're from the US you don't really have an idea of just how badly the <40 crowd has been affected by US student loans. This on top of going through a great recession and covid, both of which are going to damage our long term earnings. It is simply impossible to not cave to the biggest demand of the biggest voting bloc. Student debt was eventually going to be eliminated, that was obvious at least 8 years ago. Saying that you'll eliminate student debt then failing to do so is standard fare for getting a momentary bump in support from gullible young people. Delay payment and offer new repayment options, certainly - but no way, no how can it simply be written off. For instance, the housing bubble will collapse once people realize millennials literally can't afford houses. Student debt is just one of the many trillion-dollar debt bubbles that the US has, and not even the smartest one to tackle (given that unless you deal with the fundamental problem of education costs, it won't matter in the end). But promising it then failing to deliver is one of the best ways to make a million indebted graduates quiver with anticipation for debt relief. Student debt is different in that our entire economy is predicated on 25-55 year olds spending above their means, and student debt means that this "demo" will be spending 1/10 of what boomers did at their age. The economy will die if they don't stop the payments. For instance, the housing bubble will explode if people realize that millennials are too poor to buy housing. If these were debts being paid to a private company that'd be one thing. Instead, it's just straight to the government : these are essentially taxes that are narrowly targeted at a specific age group. Our older generations cut taxes and instead made us take out loans for things they got from their parent's taxes (education, which used to be far cheaper due to state funding). Whether the economy's current structure SHOULD die is a different question, but there's definitely no will to kick that hornet's nest (as should be indicated by this coming from Schumer, rather than Pelosi. For all that Pelosi is something of a centrist, she's always been much more open to progressive policies than Chuck). Your mistake is not in seeing student debt as important, but in thinking that it's somehow unique. There are many classes of debts in the US that shackle people to a poor economic situation. Being stuck with student debts is not much different than a car payment, house payment, medical bill, etc., that people can't afford that stops them from making other purchases more beneficial to the consumption-based economy. Each of these are trillion-dollar debt traps that show no sign of slowing down. The only real unique thing about student debt is that it's majority owned by the government, which means I suppose they could write it off if they're up for a haircut of a third of the federal government's assets. They're obviously no more interested in that than in unwinding the circumstances of all the other forms of self-destructive debt the US has spun up over the years for the majority of the population. Not that it matters anyways, since young people don't vote. Not worth wasting the effort it'd take to help them. They don’t stay young forever. That said I don’t think the forms of debt are necessarily that comparable. Yeah you’re paying car debt off, but a car is quite a useful thing to have. More so in areas of America than over here given both city planning and transport links. Quite useful to have in terms of employment too. Yeah a house can be pretty pricey and cut spending on various nick-knacks, but you’re on the ladder and there’s some long-term stability benefits. Also I’m not sure of such things as I’m perpetually broke but mortgage payments don’t have to be much more than rent right? You still at least have something in the tradeoff. Many students do subsequently have the earning boost that make the debt accrued more than worthwhile. For those that do not they’re not just saddled with debt that confers them nothing much in return, there’s also the matter of years deferred from entering the job market. As someone who is beyond broke having started degree number 2, from a purely selfish point of view making it cheaper or free would be nice (and our fees are small fry compared to across the Atlantic), I do think the overall college/university pipeline is just fundamentally broken and in need of more nuanced reform than merely subsidising the end users of the broken system.
A car, house, and education are all “a useful thing to have” but for which the debt can bury you if you acquired it under less than stable financial circumstances or just get unlucky. Cars can break, houses can put you on the hook for expensive repairs, and an education can be a wash for any number of reasons. Student debt really doesn’t stand out from the perspective of forcing you into many years of barely affordable payments. Notably, no defense of the US healthcare system was given because that really is quite indefensible.
Depending on who you ask, you should just pull yourself up by your bootstraps, donate plasma for a second income stream, get a night job as a taxi driver, etc. The US government as a whole seems to be more or less of that approach overall as well.
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Debt acquired for post-secondary education has the unique distinction of being something attributed almost exclusively to younger people. That's the difference. Car and home debt are taken on all the time by people at all stages of their adult life, often with far more resources than someone who hasn't had a chance to start a career in an artificially bloated job market. Nothing technically makes the debt different, maybe whether the government holds it, but the context of the debt and the reason it's taken on in the first place are everything.
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United States10530 Posts
On November 08 2020 11:38 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2020 11:30 FlaShFTW wrote:
My friends: So FlaSh, how does it feel having voted for the winner the past two presidential elections?
IM JUST A WINNER BABYYYYYY Are you a winner at the soul level having voted for Trump last time though?
listen.... we dont talk about my soul at that point. but i am a winner.
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I hope all the dumb far left dip shits saying Biden doesn’t have the mental capability to be president watched Biden’s speech. This whole situation is so gratifying
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On November 08 2020 12:02 Mohdoo wrote:
I hope all the dumb far left dip shits saying Biden doesn’t have the mental capability to be president watched Biden’s speech. This whole situation is so gratifying
He held onto thoughts and spoke through them clearly and coherently. You were lucky if one of Trump's sentences ended where it looked like it was going when he started. All in all, not a high bar, but fuck me if we can't clear that first.
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On November 08 2020 12:02 Mohdoo wrote:
I hope all the dumb far left dip shits saying Biden doesn’t have the mental capability to be president watched Biden’s speech. This whole situation is so gratifying
you mean the far right dip shits?
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GO AMERICA! Historic Voter Turnout. Educated Americans stood up and took the country back. Gotta love it ^^
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This is just a start. I'm telling myself this constantly. We need to remain motivated to turning out and holding politicians responsible at all points in time, not just when a historic assclown with a bad fake tan is desecrating American insititutions left and right. And when even in 2020, you had people vote who never even bothered to go down-ballot to vote beyond the President, that's worrisome. It's the most important part. Mitch McConnell leading the Republican senate comes from down-ballot voting. They need to be ousted even worse than Trump.
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EPT
