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On November 06 2020 19:58 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2020 19:44 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2020 19:43 Biff The Understudy wrote:
The more it goes, the more I can imagine that they will actually go after him when he is out. It's hard to imagine a former president in jail or in serious legal jeopardy, but I start to kind of think that they won't let him slip out. I imagine it will turn out out being a cunt to basically everyone isn’t a great long-term strategy. You say that but without Covid he may well have won.
with Covid he may well have won. some might say thats not in trumps book, but trump did take hurricane responses professionally
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On November 06 2020 20:07 KungKras wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2020 20:05 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 20:04 KungKras wrote:On November 06 2020 20:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 19:53 Slydie wrote:That page is very useful, thanks! This looks over. My bullet proof prediction: Trump gets North Carolina and Alaska Biden retains Nevada, Georgia and Arizona, and a Pennsylvania flip is inbound with incoming votes heavily trending Biden. The EC vote will not be that close in the end with 298 to 240. Might be that actually, Biden will be remembered to have performed very well, both in the popular vote and the electoral college. The way I see it, the only problem facing democrats is that they need to convince folks in many rural / poorer / southern states that just don't vote for them; which is just punishing considering how the system is designed. I know that centrists think that the whole "socialist" message is a suicide and progressive think that the centrist way has failed and is the root of all problems. I think they are both right and that the dems need a synthesis: truly progressive policies package in a way that won't scare the voters they trail with off. I hope that the longer time goes on since the cold war ended, "socialism" will lose its boogeyman status. I mean there isn't a big bad soviet union around to be paranoid about anymore. Or just use a better word. Sanders is muuuuch more a social democrat than a socialist for example. I'm still perplexed why Sanders didn't call himself a social democrat. I mean out of all the terms he could have used, it's the one that's most positively charged, and the one with the most success stories around the world under its banner.
The people you want to convince don't give a shit about what's going on in the rest of the world anyway. What I retain from all of this is that your country is even more divided than what I thought. I still cannot understand how Trump got more votes that what he got in 2016, to a foreigner it's just crazy (understatement).
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On November 06 2020 20:05 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2020 20:04 KungKras wrote:On November 06 2020 20:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 19:53 Slydie wrote:That page is very useful, thanks! This looks over. My bullet proof prediction: Trump gets North Carolina and Alaska Biden retains Nevada, Georgia and Arizona, and a Pennsylvania flip is inbound with incoming votes heavily trending Biden. The EC vote will not be that close in the end with 298 to 240. Might be that actually, Biden will be remembered to have performed very well, both in the popular vote and the electoral college. The way I see it, the only problem facing democrats is that they need to convince folks in many rural / poorer / southern states that just don't vote for them; which is just punishing considering how the system is designed. I know that centrists think that the whole "socialist" message is a suicide and progressive think that the centrist way has failed and is the root of all problems. I think they are both right and that the dems need a synthesis: truly progressive policies package in a way that won't scare the voters they trail with off. I hope that the longer time goes on since the cold war ended, "socialism" will lose its boogeyman status. I mean there isn't a big bad soviet union around to be paranoid about anymore. Or just use a better word. Sanders is muuuuch more a social democrat than a socialist for example.
I don't think so. I think he was being pragmatic about what can be achieved in the US but he definitely wanted the good stuff.
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On November 06 2020 20:05 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2020 20:04 KungKras wrote:On November 06 2020 20:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 19:53 Slydie wrote:That page is very useful, thanks! This looks over. My bullet proof prediction: Trump gets North Carolina and Alaska Biden retains Nevada, Georgia and Arizona, and a Pennsylvania flip is inbound with incoming votes heavily trending Biden. The EC vote will not be that close in the end with 298 to 240. Might be that actually, Biden will be remembered to have performed very well, both in the popular vote and the electoral college. The way I see it, the only problem facing democrats is that they need to convince folks in many rural / poorer / southern states that just don't vote for them; which is just punishing considering how the system is designed. I know that centrists think that the whole "socialist" message is a suicide and progressive think that the centrist way has failed and is the root of all problems. I think they are both right and that the dems need a synthesis: truly progressive policies package in a way that won't scare the voters they trail with off. I hope that the longer time goes on since the cold war ended, "socialism" will lose its boogeyman status. I mean there isn't a big bad soviet union around to be paranoid about anymore. Or just use a better word. Sanders is muuuuch more a social democrat than a socialist for example.
Do you really think that that would make a difference to the people who are scared of socialism? It is about politics and involves social. To those people, "social democrat" and "socialist" are the exact same thing.
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On November 06 2020 20:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2020 19:59 pmh wrote:On November 06 2020 19:43 Biff The Understudy wrote:
The more it goes, the more I can imagine that they will actually go after him when he is out. It's hard to imagine a former president in jail or in serious legal jeopardy, but I start to kind of think that they won't let him slip out. Its starting to become a greek tragedy. Trump would probably do best to try safe whats left. While no doubt enjoyable to see for some i think it would be better for everyone if this ends in a somewhat decent way. The country has to unite and move on,and that should include the trump supporters if you like it or not. This to not make the same mistake that led to trump in the first place. You are probably right. It's a fine balance though because that's also sending a message for future Trumps that they can shit all over everything with exactly zero personal consequence. There is no good option in my opinion. Israel jailing its prime minister at least sends a clear message to both its people and its political class.
What? They did? Netanyahu ? Can't find any news about that, or are you talking about something else?
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He means Olmert, Netanyahu's predecessor.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehud_Olmert
Ehud Olmert (/ˈoʊlmərt, -mɛərt/; Hebrew: אֶהוּד אוֹלְמֶרְט, IPA: [eˈhud ˈolmeʁt]; born 30 September 1945) is an Israeli politician and lawyer. He served as the 12th Prime Minister of Israel from 2006 to 2009 and before that as a cabinet minister from 1988 to 1992 and from 2003 to 2006. Between his first and second stints as a cabinet member, he served as mayor of Jerusalem from 1993 to 2003. After serving as PM he was sentenced to serve a prison term over convictions for accepting bribes and for obstruction of justice during his terms as mayor of Jerusalem and as trade minister.
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On November 06 2020 20:20 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2020 20:05 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 20:04 KungKras wrote:On November 06 2020 20:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 19:53 Slydie wrote:That page is very useful, thanks! This looks over. My bullet proof prediction: Trump gets North Carolina and Alaska Biden retains Nevada, Georgia and Arizona, and a Pennsylvania flip is inbound with incoming votes heavily trending Biden. The EC vote will not be that close in the end with 298 to 240. Might be that actually, Biden will be remembered to have performed very well, both in the popular vote and the electoral college. The way I see it, the only problem facing democrats is that they need to convince folks in many rural / poorer / southern states that just don't vote for them; which is just punishing considering how the system is designed. I know that centrists think that the whole "socialist" message is a suicide and progressive think that the centrist way has failed and is the root of all problems. I think they are both right and that the dems need a synthesis: truly progressive policies package in a way that won't scare the voters they trail with off. I hope that the longer time goes on since the cold war ended, "socialism" will lose its boogeyman status. I mean there isn't a big bad soviet union around to be paranoid about anymore. Or just use a better word. Sanders is muuuuch more a social democrat than a socialist for example. I don't think so. I think he was being pragmatic about what can be achieved in the US but he definitely wanted the good stuff.
Social democracy has a better historical track record of being the "good stuff" than actual socialism.
Also if you think that Sanders wants to abolish private property, give the entire control of the means of production to the workers, end capitalism and take his ideas from Vladimir Lenin, you haven't been following. All he's fought for all his life is to make the US look like something like Denmark, not a hypothetical successful USSR fantasyland.
But again, it's all about the ambiguity of the word socialism, and that's why it's a shit word. Sanders uses it in a French way, to mean, social democracy. And the older folk think that he wants what you want, and so of course they get scared and vote against it because no one except five guys want to retry Lenin but *this time* get it right.
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On November 06 2020 20:26 Nouar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2020 20:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 19:59 pmh wrote:On November 06 2020 19:43 Biff The Understudy wrote:
The more it goes, the more I can imagine that they will actually go after him when he is out. It's hard to imagine a former president in jail or in serious legal jeopardy, but I start to kind of think that they won't let him slip out. Its starting to become a greek tragedy. Trump would probably do best to try safe whats left. While no doubt enjoyable to see for some i think it would be better for everyone if this ends in a somewhat decent way. The country has to unite and move on,and that should include the trump supporters if you like it or not. This to not make the same mistake that led to trump in the first place. You are probably right. It's a fine balance though because that's also sending a message for future Trumps that they can shit all over everything with exactly zero personal consequence. There is no good option in my opinion. Israel jailing its prime minister at least sends a clear message to both its people and its political class. What? They did? Netanyahu ? Can't find any news about that, or are you talking about something else?
Ehud Olmert.
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On November 06 2020 20:18 Furikawari wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2020 20:07 KungKras wrote:On November 06 2020 20:05 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 20:04 KungKras wrote:On November 06 2020 20:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 19:53 Slydie wrote:That page is very useful, thanks! This looks over. My bullet proof prediction: Trump gets North Carolina and Alaska Biden retains Nevada, Georgia and Arizona, and a Pennsylvania flip is inbound with incoming votes heavily trending Biden. The EC vote will not be that close in the end with 298 to 240. Might be that actually, Biden will be remembered to have performed very well, both in the popular vote and the electoral college. The way I see it, the only problem facing democrats is that they need to convince folks in many rural / poorer / southern states that just don't vote for them; which is just punishing considering how the system is designed. I know that centrists think that the whole "socialist" message is a suicide and progressive think that the centrist way has failed and is the root of all problems. I think they are both right and that the dems need a synthesis: truly progressive policies package in a way that won't scare the voters they trail with off. I hope that the longer time goes on since the cold war ended, "socialism" will lose its boogeyman status. I mean there isn't a big bad soviet union around to be paranoid about anymore. Or just use a better word. Sanders is muuuuch more a social democrat than a socialist for example. I'm still perplexed why Sanders didn't call himself a social democrat. I mean out of all the terms he could have used, it's the one that's most positively charged, and the one with the most success stories around the world under its banner. The people you want to convince don't give a shit about what's going on in the rest of the world anyway. What I retain from all of this is that your country is even more divided than what I thought. I still cannot understand how Trump got more votes that what he got in 2016, to a foreigner it's just crazy (understatement).
To a native... it's downright disheartening.
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On November 06 2020 20:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2020 20:20 Nebuchad wrote:On November 06 2020 20:05 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 20:04 KungKras wrote:On November 06 2020 20:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 19:53 Slydie wrote:That page is very useful, thanks! This looks over. My bullet proof prediction: Trump gets North Carolina and Alaska Biden retains Nevada, Georgia and Arizona, and a Pennsylvania flip is inbound with incoming votes heavily trending Biden. The EC vote will not be that close in the end with 298 to 240. Might be that actually, Biden will be remembered to have performed very well, both in the popular vote and the electoral college. The way I see it, the only problem facing democrats is that they need to convince folks in many rural / poorer / southern states that just don't vote for them; which is just punishing considering how the system is designed. I know that centrists think that the whole "socialist" message is a suicide and progressive think that the centrist way has failed and is the root of all problems. I think they are both right and that the dems need a synthesis: truly progressive policies package in a way that won't scare the voters they trail with off. I hope that the longer time goes on since the cold war ended, "socialism" will lose its boogeyman status. I mean there isn't a big bad soviet union around to be paranoid about anymore. Or just use a better word. Sanders is muuuuch more a social democrat than a socialist for example. I don't think so. I think he was being pragmatic about what can be achieved in the US but he definitely wanted the good stuff. Social democracy has a better historical track record of being the "good stuff" than actual socialism. Also if you think that Sanders wants to abolish private property, give the entire control of the means of production to the workers, end capitalism and take his ideas from Vladimir Lenin, you haven't been following. All he's fought for all his life is to make the US look like something like Denmark, not a hypothetical successful USSR fantasyland. But again, it's all about the ambiguity of the word socialism, and that's why it's a shit word. Sanders uses it in a French way, to mean, social democracy. And the older folk think that he wants what you want, and so of course they get scared and vote against it because no one except five guys want to retry Lenin but *this time* get it right.
His program contained incentives for worker co-ops, which a social democrat has no use for and we socialists do. So yeah I've been following.
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On November 06 2020 20:38 Tictock wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2020 20:18 Furikawari wrote:On November 06 2020 20:07 KungKras wrote:On November 06 2020 20:05 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 20:04 KungKras wrote:On November 06 2020 20:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 19:53 Slydie wrote:That page is very useful, thanks! This looks over. My bullet proof prediction: Trump gets North Carolina and Alaska Biden retains Nevada, Georgia and Arizona, and a Pennsylvania flip is inbound with incoming votes heavily trending Biden. The EC vote will not be that close in the end with 298 to 240. Might be that actually, Biden will be remembered to have performed very well, both in the popular vote and the electoral college. The way I see it, the only problem facing democrats is that they need to convince folks in many rural / poorer / southern states that just don't vote for them; which is just punishing considering how the system is designed. I know that centrists think that the whole "socialist" message is a suicide and progressive think that the centrist way has failed and is the root of all problems. I think they are both right and that the dems need a synthesis: truly progressive policies package in a way that won't scare the voters they trail with off. I hope that the longer time goes on since the cold war ended, "socialism" will lose its boogeyman status. I mean there isn't a big bad soviet union around to be paranoid about anymore. Or just use a better word. Sanders is muuuuch more a social democrat than a socialist for example. I'm still perplexed why Sanders didn't call himself a social democrat. I mean out of all the terms he could have used, it's the one that's most positively charged, and the one with the most success stories around the world under its banner. The people you want to convince don't give a shit about what's going on in the rest of the world anyway. What I retain from all of this is that your country is even more divided than what I thought. I still cannot understand how Trump got more votes that what he got in 2016, to a foreigner it's just crazy (understatement). To a native... it's downright disheartening.
Makes no sense at all.
Even Trump winning doing less votes than last time, because Biden would have underperformed like crazy would be more understandable than Trump losing but doing better than in 16.
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On November 06 2020 20:40 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2020 20:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 20:20 Nebuchad wrote:On November 06 2020 20:05 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 20:04 KungKras wrote:On November 06 2020 20:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 19:53 Slydie wrote:That page is very useful, thanks! This looks over. My bullet proof prediction: Trump gets North Carolina and Alaska Biden retains Nevada, Georgia and Arizona, and a Pennsylvania flip is inbound with incoming votes heavily trending Biden. The EC vote will not be that close in the end with 298 to 240. Might be that actually, Biden will be remembered to have performed very well, both in the popular vote and the electoral college. The way I see it, the only problem facing democrats is that they need to convince folks in many rural / poorer / southern states that just don't vote for them; which is just punishing considering how the system is designed. I know that centrists think that the whole "socialist" message is a suicide and progressive think that the centrist way has failed and is the root of all problems. I think they are both right and that the dems need a synthesis: truly progressive policies package in a way that won't scare the voters they trail with off. I hope that the longer time goes on since the cold war ended, "socialism" will lose its boogeyman status. I mean there isn't a big bad soviet union around to be paranoid about anymore. Or just use a better word. Sanders is muuuuch more a social democrat than a socialist for example. I don't think so. I think he was being pragmatic about what can be achieved in the US but he definitely wanted the good stuff. Social democracy has a better historical track record of being the "good stuff" than actual socialism. Also if you think that Sanders wants to abolish private property, give the entire control of the means of production to the workers, end capitalism and take his ideas from Vladimir Lenin, you haven't been following. All he's fought for all his life is to make the US look like something like Denmark, not a hypothetical successful USSR fantasyland. But again, it's all about the ambiguity of the word socialism, and that's why it's a shit word. Sanders uses it in a French way, to mean, social democracy. And the older folk think that he wants what you want, and so of course they get scared and vote against it because no one except five guys want to retry Lenin but *this time* get it right. His program contained incentives for worker co-ops, which a social democrat has no use for and we socialists do. So yeah I've been following.
Most social democrats are totally positive about workers co-op, what are you talking about?
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On November 06 2020 20:41 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2020 20:40 Nebuchad wrote:On November 06 2020 20:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 20:20 Nebuchad wrote:On November 06 2020 20:05 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 20:04 KungKras wrote:On November 06 2020 20:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 19:53 Slydie wrote:That page is very useful, thanks! This looks over. My bullet proof prediction: Trump gets North Carolina and Alaska Biden retains Nevada, Georgia and Arizona, and a Pennsylvania flip is inbound with incoming votes heavily trending Biden. The EC vote will not be that close in the end with 298 to 240. Might be that actually, Biden will be remembered to have performed very well, both in the popular vote and the electoral college. The way I see it, the only problem facing democrats is that they need to convince folks in many rural / poorer / southern states that just don't vote for them; which is just punishing considering how the system is designed. I know that centrists think that the whole "socialist" message is a suicide and progressive think that the centrist way has failed and is the root of all problems. I think they are both right and that the dems need a synthesis: truly progressive policies package in a way that won't scare the voters they trail with off. I hope that the longer time goes on since the cold war ended, "socialism" will lose its boogeyman status. I mean there isn't a big bad soviet union around to be paranoid about anymore. Or just use a better word. Sanders is muuuuch more a social democrat than a socialist for example. I don't think so. I think he was being pragmatic about what can be achieved in the US but he definitely wanted the good stuff. Social democracy has a better historical track record of being the "good stuff" than actual socialism. Also if you think that Sanders wants to abolish private property, give the entire control of the means of production to the workers, end capitalism and take his ideas from Vladimir Lenin, you haven't been following. All he's fought for all his life is to make the US look like something like Denmark, not a hypothetical successful USSR fantasyland. But again, it's all about the ambiguity of the word socialism, and that's why it's a shit word. Sanders uses it in a French way, to mean, social democracy. And the older folk think that he wants what you want, and so of course they get scared and vote against it because no one except five guys want to retry Lenin but *this time* get it right. His program contained incentives for worker co-ops, which a social democrat has no use for and we socialists do. So yeah I've been following. Most social democrats are totally positive about workers co-op, what are you talking about?
What kind of definitions are you using?
Social democracy maintains a mixed economy: private owners and a strong welfare state. Co-ops are basically the difference between market socialism and social democracy.
If you're for co-ops and a social democracy you're a socialist.
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Northern Ireland26798 Posts
On November 06 2020 19:58 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2020 19:44 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2020 19:43 Biff The Understudy wrote:
The more it goes, the more I can imagine that they will actually go after him when he is out. It's hard to imagine a former president in jail or in serious legal jeopardy, but I start to kind of think that they won't let him slip out. I imagine it will turn out out being a cunt to basically everyone isn’t a great long-term strategy. You say that but without Covid he may well have won.
I’m referring more to Trump’s own personal well-being once he’s out of office.
Being a cunt in his way has been politically successful for him, but he’s stuck his head above the parapet and has made innumerable enemies in interpersonal terms.
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On November 06 2020 20:45 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2020 20:41 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 20:40 Nebuchad wrote:On November 06 2020 20:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 20:20 Nebuchad wrote:On November 06 2020 20:05 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 20:04 KungKras wrote:On November 06 2020 20:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 19:53 Slydie wrote:That page is very useful, thanks! This looks over. My bullet proof prediction: Trump gets North Carolina and Alaska Biden retains Nevada, Georgia and Arizona, and a Pennsylvania flip is inbound with incoming votes heavily trending Biden. The EC vote will not be that close in the end with 298 to 240. Might be that actually, Biden will be remembered to have performed very well, both in the popular vote and the electoral college. The way I see it, the only problem facing democrats is that they need to convince folks in many rural / poorer / southern states that just don't vote for them; which is just punishing considering how the system is designed. I know that centrists think that the whole "socialist" message is a suicide and progressive think that the centrist way has failed and is the root of all problems. I think they are both right and that the dems need a synthesis: truly progressive policies package in a way that won't scare the voters they trail with off. I hope that the longer time goes on since the cold war ended, "socialism" will lose its boogeyman status. I mean there isn't a big bad soviet union around to be paranoid about anymore. Or just use a better word. Sanders is muuuuch more a social democrat than a socialist for example. I don't think so. I think he was being pragmatic about what can be achieved in the US but he definitely wanted the good stuff. Social democracy has a better historical track record of being the "good stuff" than actual socialism. Also if you think that Sanders wants to abolish private property, give the entire control of the means of production to the workers, end capitalism and take his ideas from Vladimir Lenin, you haven't been following. All he's fought for all his life is to make the US look like something like Denmark, not a hypothetical successful USSR fantasyland. But again, it's all about the ambiguity of the word socialism, and that's why it's a shit word. Sanders uses it in a French way, to mean, social democracy. And the older folk think that he wants what you want, and so of course they get scared and vote against it because no one except five guys want to retry Lenin but *this time* get it right. His program contained incentives for worker co-ops, which a social democrat has no use for and we socialists do. So yeah I've been following. Most social democrats are totally positive about workers co-op, what are you talking about? What kind of definitions are you using? Social democracy maintains a mixed economy between private owners and a strong welfare state. Co-ops are basically the difference between market socialism and social democracy. If you're for co-ops and a social democracy you're a socialist.
Jesus, are there *any* nuances in your world or do you only work with 100% this or 100% that?
It's not because you are positive about workers co-ops that you want to expropriate and nationalize the whole economy and consider anyone who owns a business a parasitic kulak. There is absolutely room for workers cooperatives in a social democracy, and most social democrats see that as a very good thing to be encouraged. Including Sanders.
So again. Sanders wants a very strong welfare state, a highly regulated economy, high taxation, and, yes, help workers cooperatives when they are viable. It's the exact definition of a social democrat program.
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On November 06 2020 20:51 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2020 20:45 Nebuchad wrote:On November 06 2020 20:41 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 20:40 Nebuchad wrote:On November 06 2020 20:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 20:20 Nebuchad wrote:On November 06 2020 20:05 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 20:04 KungKras wrote:On November 06 2020 20:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 19:53 Slydie wrote:[quote] That page is very useful, thanks! This looks over. My bullet proof prediction: Trump gets North Carolina and Alaska Biden retains Nevada, Georgia and Arizona, and a Pennsylvania flip is inbound with incoming votes heavily trending Biden. The EC vote will not be that close in the end with 298 to 240. Might be that actually, Biden will be remembered to have performed very well, both in the popular vote and the electoral college. The way I see it, the only problem facing democrats is that they need to convince folks in many rural / poorer / southern states that just don't vote for them; which is just punishing considering how the system is designed. I know that centrists think that the whole "socialist" message is a suicide and progressive think that the centrist way has failed and is the root of all problems. I think they are both right and that the dems need a synthesis: truly progressive policies package in a way that won't scare the voters they trail with off. I hope that the longer time goes on since the cold war ended, "socialism" will lose its boogeyman status. I mean there isn't a big bad soviet union around to be paranoid about anymore. Or just use a better word. Sanders is muuuuch more a social democrat than a socialist for example. I don't think so. I think he was being pragmatic about what can be achieved in the US but he definitely wanted the good stuff. Social democracy has a better historical track record of being the "good stuff" than actual socialism. Also if you think that Sanders wants to abolish private property, give the entire control of the means of production to the workers, end capitalism and take his ideas from Vladimir Lenin, you haven't been following. All he's fought for all his life is to make the US look like something like Denmark, not a hypothetical successful USSR fantasyland. But again, it's all about the ambiguity of the word socialism, and that's why it's a shit word. Sanders uses it in a French way, to mean, social democracy. And the older folk think that he wants what you want, and so of course they get scared and vote against it because no one except five guys want to retry Lenin but *this time* get it right. His program contained incentives for worker co-ops, which a social democrat has no use for and we socialists do. So yeah I've been following. Most social democrats are totally positive about workers co-op, what are you talking about? What kind of definitions are you using? Social democracy maintains a mixed economy between private owners and a strong welfare state. Co-ops are basically the difference between market socialism and social democracy. If you're for co-ops and a social democracy you're a socialist. Jesus, are there *any* nuances in your world or do you only work with 100% this or 100% that? It's not because you are positive about workers co-ops that you want to expropriate and nationalize the whole economy and consider anyone who owns a business a parasitic kulak. There is absolutely room for workers cooperatives in a social democracy, and most social democrats see that as a very good thing to be encouraged. Including Sanders. So again. Sanders wants a very strong welfare state, a highly regulated economy, high taxation, and, yes, help workers cooperatives when they are viable. It's the exact definition of a social democrat program.
Well typically if your program contains incentives for something it's because you want more of that thing?
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On November 06 2020 20:38 Tictock wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2020 20:18 Furikawari wrote:On November 06 2020 20:07 KungKras wrote:On November 06 2020 20:05 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 20:04 KungKras wrote:On November 06 2020 20:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 19:53 Slydie wrote:That page is very useful, thanks! This looks over. My bullet proof prediction: Trump gets North Carolina and Alaska Biden retains Nevada, Georgia and Arizona, and a Pennsylvania flip is inbound with incoming votes heavily trending Biden. The EC vote will not be that close in the end with 298 to 240. Might be that actually, Biden will be remembered to have performed very well, both in the popular vote and the electoral college. The way I see it, the only problem facing democrats is that they need to convince folks in many rural / poorer / southern states that just don't vote for them; which is just punishing considering how the system is designed. I know that centrists think that the whole "socialist" message is a suicide and progressive think that the centrist way has failed and is the root of all problems. I think they are both right and that the dems need a synthesis: truly progressive policies package in a way that won't scare the voters they trail with off. I hope that the longer time goes on since the cold war ended, "socialism" will lose its boogeyman status. I mean there isn't a big bad soviet union around to be paranoid about anymore. Or just use a better word. Sanders is muuuuch more a social democrat than a socialist for example. I'm still perplexed why Sanders didn't call himself a social democrat. I mean out of all the terms he could have used, it's the one that's most positively charged, and the one with the most success stories around the world under its banner. The people you want to convince don't give a shit about what's going on in the rest of the world anyway. What I retain from all of this is that your country is even more divided than what I thought. I still cannot understand how Trump got more votes that what he got in 2016, to a foreigner it's just crazy (understatement). To a native... it's downright disheartening.
CNN had a short op-ed that summed it up fairly well, I thought. It's hardly a controversial position, but it really is beyond belief that this is truly what half of America seems to think.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/04/opinions/us-global-image-after-election-night-2020-wierson/index.html
No matter the outcome, America's standing in the world took a big hit on election night
Joe Biden may still end up winning this election, but no matter how you cut it, it was clear here and around the globe that roughly half of America believes that the character of our President doesn't matter all that much, an impeachment is meaningless and the Department of Justice really should serve as the chief executive's personal law firm.
More importantly, from a global perspective, roughly one in two of American voters signaled to the world that not only are capricious trade wars palatable, but long-standing global alliances like the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) don't matter anymore.
What about withholding funding from the World Health Organization amid a global pandemic that has claimed well over a million lives across the globe? Many voters apparently thought that was OK. Abrogating leadership on the existential issue of climate change? Another check. Not to mention what this split decision says about the US and our moral fabric on the topics of social justice, racial equality and inclusiveness.
[...]
Our friends across the world can no longer count on us to do the right thing. No matter who wins this election, America is already weaker for it. We had an opportunity as a country to turn a page on this dark chapter in our history, but we, as a people and a nation, came up well short.
Fool me once, and all that. The world is a much scarier place since Tuesday morning.
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On November 06 2020 20:54 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2020 20:38 Tictock wrote:On November 06 2020 20:18 Furikawari wrote:On November 06 2020 20:07 KungKras wrote:On November 06 2020 20:05 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 20:04 KungKras wrote:On November 06 2020 20:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 19:53 Slydie wrote:That page is very useful, thanks! This looks over. My bullet proof prediction: Trump gets North Carolina and Alaska Biden retains Nevada, Georgia and Arizona, and a Pennsylvania flip is inbound with incoming votes heavily trending Biden. The EC vote will not be that close in the end with 298 to 240. Might be that actually, Biden will be remembered to have performed very well, both in the popular vote and the electoral college. The way I see it, the only problem facing democrats is that they need to convince folks in many rural / poorer / southern states that just don't vote for them; which is just punishing considering how the system is designed. I know that centrists think that the whole "socialist" message is a suicide and progressive think that the centrist way has failed and is the root of all problems. I think they are both right and that the dems need a synthesis: truly progressive policies package in a way that won't scare the voters they trail with off. I hope that the longer time goes on since the cold war ended, "socialism" will lose its boogeyman status. I mean there isn't a big bad soviet union around to be paranoid about anymore. Or just use a better word. Sanders is muuuuch more a social democrat than a socialist for example. I'm still perplexed why Sanders didn't call himself a social democrat. I mean out of all the terms he could have used, it's the one that's most positively charged, and the one with the most success stories around the world under its banner. The people you want to convince don't give a shit about what's going on in the rest of the world anyway. What I retain from all of this is that your country is even more divided than what I thought. I still cannot understand how Trump got more votes that what he got in 2016, to a foreigner it's just crazy (understatement). To a native... it's downright disheartening. CNN had a short op-ed that summed it up fairly well, I thought. It's hardly a controversial position, but it really is beyond belief that this is truly what half of America seems to think. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/04/opinions/us-global-image-after-election-night-2020-wierson/index.htmlShow nested quote +No matter the outcome, America's standing in the world took a big hit on election night
Joe Biden may still end up winning this election, but no matter how you cut it, it was clear here and around the globe that roughly half of America believes that the character of our President doesn't matter all that much, an impeachment is meaningless and the Department of Justice really should serve as the chief executive's personal law firm.
More importantly, from a global perspective, roughly one in two of American voters signaled to the world that not only are capricious trade wars palatable, but long-standing global alliances like the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) don't matter anymore.
What about withholding funding from the World Health Organization amid a global pandemic that has claimed well over a million lives across the globe? Many voters apparently thought that was OK. Abrogating leadership on the existential issue of climate change? Another check. Not to mention what this split decision says about the US and our moral fabric on the topics of social justice, racial equality and inclusiveness.
[...]
Our friends across the world can no longer count on us to do the right thing. No matter who wins this election, America is already weaker for it. We had an opportunity as a country to turn a page on this dark chapter in our history, but we, as a people and a nation, came up well short.
Fool me once, and all that. The world is a much scarier place since Tuesday morning.
It wouldn't surprise me if the EU starts working on their own alternative to NATO, just in case another lunatic becomes president again.
EDIT: Taiwan must be really worried about the future also.
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This is a bit besides the point of this thread but there is many types of co-ops.
Owned to some extend by various stakeholders like employes,consumers,entrepeneurs,supliers (several large agricultural co-ops in the netherlands are owned by a collective of farmers) or even science (see karlsberg in denmark).
There is room for co-ops in a social democracy why wouldnt there be?
I guess its a matter of what definition you use.
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On November 06 2020 20:52 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2020 20:51 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 20:45 Nebuchad wrote:On November 06 2020 20:41 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 20:40 Nebuchad wrote:On November 06 2020 20:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 20:20 Nebuchad wrote:On November 06 2020 20:05 Biff The Understudy wrote:On November 06 2020 20:04 KungKras wrote:On November 06 2020 20:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:
[quote]
Might be that actually, Biden will be remembered to have performed very well, both in the popular vote and the electoral college.
The way I see it, the only problem facing democrats is that they need to convince folks in many rural / poorer / southern states that just don't vote for them; which is just punishing considering how the system is designed.
I know that centrists think that the whole "socialist" message is a suicide and progressive think that the centrist way has failed and is the root of all problems. I think they are both right and that the dems need a synthesis: truly progressive policies package in a way that won't scare the voters they trail with off. I hope that the longer time goes on since the cold war ended, "socialism" will lose its boogeyman status. I mean there isn't a big bad soviet union around to be paranoid about anymore. Or just use a better word. Sanders is muuuuch more a social democrat than a socialist for example. I don't think so. I think he was being pragmatic about what can be achieved in the US but he definitely wanted the good stuff. Social democracy has a better historical track record of being the "good stuff" than actual socialism. Also if you think that Sanders wants to abolish private property, give the entire control of the means of production to the workers, end capitalism and take his ideas from Vladimir Lenin, you haven't been following. All he's fought for all his life is to make the US look like something like Denmark, not a hypothetical successful USSR fantasyland. But again, it's all about the ambiguity of the word socialism, and that's why it's a shit word. Sanders uses it in a French way, to mean, social democracy. And the older folk think that he wants what you want, and so of course they get scared and vote against it because no one except five guys want to retry Lenin but *this time* get it right. His program contained incentives for worker co-ops, which a social democrat has no use for and we socialists do. So yeah I've been following. Most social democrats are totally positive about workers co-op, what are you talking about? What kind of definitions are you using? Social democracy maintains a mixed economy between private owners and a strong welfare state. Co-ops are basically the difference between market socialism and social democracy. If you're for co-ops and a social democracy you're a socialist. Jesus, are there *any* nuances in your world or do you only work with 100% this or 100% that? It's not because you are positive about workers co-ops that you want to expropriate and nationalize the whole economy and consider anyone who owns a business a parasitic kulak. There is absolutely room for workers cooperatives in a social democracy, and most social democrats see that as a very good thing to be encouraged. Including Sanders. So again. Sanders wants a very strong welfare state, a highly regulated economy, high taxation, and, yes, help workers cooperatives when they are viable. It's the exact definition of a social democrat program. Well typically if your program contains incentives for something it's because you want more of that thing?
Yes. It doesn't mean you want ONLY that thing and erradicate all the rest. That's what I mean by "nuance".
I am for nationalizing the trains and post offices, that doesn't mean I want the whole economy to be nationalized and state owned. By the same token, I will always support policies that makes coop viables, give them tax breaks and help them, because I think they are great, but I am not in favour of making The Revolution (tm), expropriate every business owner and have the whole country be made of worker coops. Because it's a duper crap idea, and every social democrat, including Sanders, realizes that.
I mean, it's not that hard.
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