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On January 24 2022 14:35 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2022 23:18 Slydie wrote:On January 23 2022 21:27 RKC wrote: Health authorities should really be analysing data on COVID deaths and hospitalisations, and identify high-risk people. Then take targeted measures to protect these people.
There's really little point just accumulating raw numbers of infections and hospitalisations. Lockdowns are really hard to justify in this post-vaccination era. Unvaccinated people are just a lost cause.
My feeling is that the highest risk factor of serious COVID complications is pre-existing comorbidities. Vaccination helps, but wanes faster or offers less protection to vulnerable people compared to other regular folks. If this is the case, governments owe a duty to take special care over these vulnerable folks. The greatest tragedy is not the deaths of unvaccinated people, but vaccinated people lulled with a false sense of security. It's probably not a great messaging and may stoke anti-vaxxism even more, but health authorities should be brave to say "Some of you are in grave danger even being vaccinated, so please take precautionary measures". Also, practically, it's much easier to protect the vulnerable minority rather than compel the majority to protect the vulnerable minority. At this point, those vulnerable folks were just as much in danger every normal flu season, and no special precautions were taken. After having had information about how dangerous this virus is blasted at us for so long, realizing that it isn't a big deal anymore is quite difficult. Slowly, governments seem to realize that giving all COVID positives a week off work no matter their condition is both incredibly expensive and silly. After my family got boosters, my desire to even get tested is very close to 0. Oh, and around here, they oblige face masks at all times on short, hilly public races. The heartrates in these can reach 90% and above of max. The runners can't oblige and pull the masks down, as they get dizzy and could faint due to the lack of oxygen. I can't believe not more people have the balls to speak up against this mask-obsessed madness, which is completely contrary of WHO recommendations. That's honestly sad that they are making runners wear masks. The sad part is we knew relatively early on that COVID doesn't spread well outdoors. It also doesn't spread well from surfaces. The amount of bullshit "hygiene theater" as the CDC calls it that carried on for so long is frankly quite pathetic. Good data is useless if you suck at applying it to policies.
https://ca.yahoo.com/news/omicron-survives-longer-plastic-skin-184539113.html
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Just a general response to the "but natural immunity" crowd. I'm not sure where you think natural immunity isn't being recognized as giving protection.
The EU Covid passport tracks registered past disease. When I went into Portugal over Christmas, their entry policy was that you either needed to have had Covid recently and recovered, or be vaccinated and have a recent negative test. I would have expected boosters to be included in the former cases, but maybe it's hard to check that. Either way, it seemed like a fair enough policy (we just got tested near the border).
Similar rules apply in Catalonia for entering a restaurant (natural immunity, vaccinated or a negative test). Insofar as I know, France and Germany follow a similar policy.
The main issue is that we don't have very accurate records of who had Covid. If you happened to be taken into the hospital, it's recorded, but for most people who recovered at home, even a positive test was not necessarily recorded in their health record. So knowing who has had Covid already isn't easy. Knowing who got vaccinated however, is easy to the point of triviality: when you go get jabbed it gets registered in the system. So yeah, that means some people will get vaccinated despite having had Covid recently giving them natural immunity, so that their protection against Covid can be recorded.
And don't forget that most policy now is informed by how much of the population is protected, in order to avoid swamping the hospitals.
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For the United States recognition is not given for natural immunity. I know people that are young, healthy, double vaxxed, and had a recent COVID infection and still have to get a booster or lose their job. I'm sure Pfizer appreciates their support.
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On January 25 2022 16:35 BlackJack wrote: For the United States recognition is not given for natural immunity. I know people that are young, healthy, double vaxxed, and had a recent COVID infection and still have to get a booster or lose their job. I'm sure Pfizer appreciates their support. To be fair, Pfizer gets the money either way. The doses have already been paid for. Whether they go into the garbage upon expiry, incinerator or into arms doesn't matter to them as a company.
That being said, I would be mildy annoyed if I had to get a booster to work if I had caught covid after being fully vaccinated. I had no reaction other than a mildly sore arm the next day (far less than the first 2) but I still had to take some time out of my day to do it. At that point, you'd have pretty much maxed out the antibodies for the original strain, and I don't think another dose does a whole lot for increasing protection against anything that comes out now. I'd much rather have a newer, Omicron specific booster, which would hopefully grant the 95% effectivity that the MRNA's had against the early strains to all Omicron sub-lineages.
Speaking of new variant, Omicron v2 is out. Now featuring more mutations and even faster spread. If we can learn anything from this, the winning strategy for Plague .Inc is clearly to evolve mutations and transmissibility.
https://cbs12.com/news/local/new-covid-variant-detected-in-at-least-40-different-countries https://komonews.com/news/coronavirus/ba2-newest-covid-19-variant-found-in-washington-state-health-officials-say
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On January 25 2022 17:17 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2022 16:35 BlackJack wrote: For the United States recognition is not given for natural immunity. I know people that are young, healthy, double vaxxed, and had a recent COVID infection and still have to get a booster or lose their job. I'm sure Pfizer appreciates their support. To be fair, Pfizer gets the money either way. The doses have already been paid for. Whether they go into the garbage upon expiry, incinerator or into arms doesn't matter to them as a company. That being said, I would be mildy annoyed if I had to get a booster to work if I had caught covid after being fully vaccinated. I had no reaction other than a mildly sore arm the next day (far less than the first 2) but I still had to take some time out of my day to do it. At that point, you'd have pretty much maxed out the antibodies for the original strain, and I don't think another dose does a whole lot for increasing protection against anything that comes out now. I'd much rather have a newer, Omicron specific booster, which would hopefully grant the 95% effectivity that the MRNA's had against the early strains to all Omicron sub-lineages. Speaking of new variant, Omicron v2 is out. Now featuring more mutations and even faster spread. If we can learn anything from this, the winning strategy for Plague .Inc is clearly to evolve mutations and transmissibility. https://cbs12.com/news/local/new-covid-variant-detected-in-at-least-40-different-countrieshttps://komonews.com/news/coronavirus/ba2-newest-covid-19-variant-found-in-washington-state-health-officials-say
That has always been the winning strategy in plague inc. The problem for us is the next step: after you're good at infecting everybody, mutate a bunch of deadly symptoms. hemorrhagic bleeding is always a good one. Covid started suboptimally though: causing severe respiratory failure before being highly extremely stupidly contagious incentivizes the nasty humans to start developing cures and vaccines too soon. If Covid now mutates into hemorrhagic bleeding or even total organ failure, I think we have enough people immunized to survive it.
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On January 25 2022 16:35 BlackJack wrote: For the United States recognition is not given for natural immunity. I know people that are young, healthy, double vaxxed, and had a recent COVID infection and still have to get a booster or lose their job. I'm sure Pfizer appreciates their support.
How many jobs actually require a booster? My job at least wanted us to get vaxed last year and completely overhauled our benefits system to track it. I haven't heard anything about boosters, although I did get mine already.
Even the software overhaul was only because they wanted to get ahead of any federal requirements. If there isn't a mandate for boosters there isn't going to be the will power to require them.
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In the end, I am happy about having gotten the booster. I am still slightly in doubt about the medical necessity of it, but the virus is all over the place right now, and being as protected as possible feels great! It is recommended!
For me, not liking vaccine passports and mandates is more of a principal issue as a social liberal. Freedom can include the right to make stupid decisions (and face the consequences).
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On January 26 2022 01:12 Slydie wrote: In the end, I am happy about having gotten the booster. I am still slightly in doubt about the medical necessity of it, but the virus is all over the place right now, and being as protected as possible feels great! It is recommended!
For me, not liking vaccine passports and mandates is more of a principal issue as a social liberal. Freedom can include the right to make stupid decisions (and face the consequences). The issue is the societal risk and overall cost. I'm not to force it, although that likely would have been the best course out of the start. But I am behind all measures that encourage it/discourage not getting it.
The amount of entitled people crying and going as far as Nazi comparisons because they have to get a rapid test done every 5 days instead of taking life saving, massive cost/tax saving, protecting your hospital system is crazy.
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On January 26 2022 01:12 Slydie wrote: In the end, I am happy about having gotten the booster. I am still slightly in doubt about the medical necessity of it, but the virus is all over the place right now, and being as protected as possible feels great! It is recommended!
For me, not liking vaccine passports and mandates is more of a principal issue as a social liberal. Freedom can include the right to make stupid decisions (and face the consequences). Isn't not being able to go to restaurants/events a consequence of the stupid decision to not get vaccinated?
Sometimes consequences are natural, but often they are social. Social exclusion for people needlessly risking overloading the medical system seems fair.
E: and I say that while having a rather sore arm and what feels like a very slight fever from getting the booster yesterday. It is bothersome. It's still almost certainly better than actually getting COVID.
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On January 26 2022 02:07 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2022 01:12 Slydie wrote: In the end, I am happy about having gotten the booster. I am still slightly in doubt about the medical necessity of it, but the virus is all over the place right now, and being as protected as possible feels great! It is recommended!
For me, not liking vaccine passports and mandates is more of a principal issue as a social liberal. Freedom can include the right to make stupid decisions (and face the consequences). Isn't not being able to go to restaurants/events a consequence of the stupid decision to not get vaccinated? Sometimes consequences are natural, but often they are social. Social exclusion for people needlessly risking overloading the medical system seems fair. E: and I say that while having a rather sore arm and what feels like a very slight fever from getting the booster yesterday. It is bothersome. It's still almost certainly better than actually getting COVID.
Your last statement there really makes it sound like you're still under the illusion that this is an either/or situation.
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On January 26 2022 02:07 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2022 01:12 Slydie wrote: In the end, I am happy about having gotten the booster. I am still slightly in doubt about the medical necessity of it, but the virus is all over the place right now, and being as protected as possible feels great! It is recommended!
For me, not liking vaccine passports and mandates is more of a principal issue as a social liberal. Freedom can include the right to make stupid decisions (and face the consequences). Isn't not being able to go to restaurants/events a consequence of the stupid decision to not get vaccinated? Sometimes consequences are natural, but often they are social. Social exclusion for people needlessly risking overloading the medical system seems fair. E: and I say that while having a rather sore arm and what feels like a very slight fever from getting the booster yesterday. It is bothersome. It's still almost certainly better than actually getting COVID.
For me, there is a very important difference when the consequence is enforced by authority or policies. You can use your logic to justify all suppression: "You had sex with a man? Well, you knew the consequences..."
The "overload the HC system" argument is still used, but at least in Europe, it doesn't hold up in anymore, as the load is no higher than what is normal at this time of the year. They even know it, but it is a game of chicken where nobody wants to be the first to see how it goes, even though South Africa and UK have shown the way. The Faroe Islands has fired, though, and will lift restrictions very soon (sorry, could not find source).
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On January 26 2022 00:01 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2022 16:35 BlackJack wrote: For the United States recognition is not given for natural immunity. I know people that are young, healthy, double vaxxed, and had a recent COVID infection and still have to get a booster or lose their job. I'm sure Pfizer appreciates their support. How many jobs actually require a booster? My job at least wanted us to get vaxed last year and completely overhauled our benefits system to track it. I haven't heard anything about boosters, although I did get mine already. Even the software overhaul was only because they wanted to get ahead of any federal requirements. If there isn't a mandate for boosters there isn't going to be the will power to require them.
Boosters were required for us due to government mandate. Some companies have gone even further than the government requires them to in terms of requiring boosters. Here's an article that has some information
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2022/01/17/apple-is-now-requiring-workers-to-show-proof-of-a-booster-shot/
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Dont know if it was posted already: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-60132765 a man in US is refused heart transplant, at least in part due to him refusing vaccination.
EDIT: This has crossed into the domain of religious belief. I mean, he knows, he is going to die if he doesnt receive heart, yet he still prefers dying to being vaccinated.
This is very similiar situation, to my jehovah witness grandmother. She refused lifesaving treatment due to her religious beliefs.
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Why stop at anti-vaxxers? Chainsmokers, drug addicts, drunk drivers also have a reckless disregard of their health and others...
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Chainsmokers are also lower in the list for transplant. I think drugs addicts are the same. Cigarettes are heavily taxed in most countries which kinda pays for the additionnal healthcare costs. Same with alcohol.
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There is nothing strange in smokers, drug addicts and alcohol abusers being denied heart transplant. This is the norm.
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On January 26 2022 17:23 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2022 00:01 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 25 2022 16:35 BlackJack wrote: For the United States recognition is not given for natural immunity. I know people that are young, healthy, double vaxxed, and had a recent COVID infection and still have to get a booster or lose their job. I'm sure Pfizer appreciates their support. How many jobs actually require a booster? My job at least wanted us to get vaxed last year and completely overhauled our benefits system to track it. I haven't heard anything about boosters, although I did get mine already. Even the software overhaul was only because they wanted to get ahead of any federal requirements. If there isn't a mandate for boosters there isn't going to be the will power to require them. Boosters were required for us due to government mandate. Some companies have gone even further than the government requires them to in terms of requiring boosters. Here's an article that has some information https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2022/01/17/apple-is-now-requiring-workers-to-show-proof-of-a-booster-shot/
You know apple, meta citbank goldman and so on are not the governmet right? The only hint of gov in your article is that the state of Hawii "may".
All the harshest mandates were from private companies and iys "comservatives" trying to get law makers to make rules against businesses requiring vaccines or boosters.
Say it like it is, major US companies ate mandatimg their staff for vaccination and some are starting to for boosters. Some governments may follow their lead though none have.
I do not get this approach of yours at all, spme strange business is good gov is bad so blame them thing?
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On January 26 2022 17:23 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2022 00:01 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 25 2022 16:35 BlackJack wrote: For the United States recognition is not given for natural immunity. I know people that are young, healthy, double vaxxed, and had a recent COVID infection and still have to get a booster or lose their job. I'm sure Pfizer appreciates their support. How many jobs actually require a booster? My job at least wanted us to get vaxed last year and completely overhauled our benefits system to track it. I haven't heard anything about boosters, although I did get mine already. Even the software overhaul was only because they wanted to get ahead of any federal requirements. If there isn't a mandate for boosters there isn't going to be the will power to require them. Boosters were required for us due to government mandate. Some companies have gone even further than the government requires them to in terms of requiring boosters. Here's an article that has some information https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2022/01/17/apple-is-now-requiring-workers-to-show-proof-of-a-booster-shot/
too bad the first paragraph says this right
Apple will call upon all unvaccinated employees to show negative Covid-19 rapid antigen tests before they are able to enter the workplace, starting on January 24.
not required if you can just do rapid tests.
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On January 26 2022 18:01 Silvanel wrote:Dont know if it was posted already: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-60132765a man in US is refused heart transplant, at least in part due to him refusing vaccination. EDIT: This has crossed into the domain of religious belief. I mean, he knows, he is going to die if he doesnt receive heart, yet he still prefers dying to being vaccinated. This is very similiar situation, to my jehovah witness grandmother. She refused lifesaving treatment due to her religious beliefs. It is very much a faith thing because there is no reason not too. Im not sure why so much faith is being put in the charlatons (often selling "natural cures" or advertizing them), but it clearly is.
You would need cult deprograming at this point for most because they ignore the mountains of evidence and believe anything that fits their narrative.
They have faith in that they are right and need no proof other than that. Which is the foundation of religion, so I agree a lot of similarities.
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On January 26 2022 22:46 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2022 17:23 BlackJack wrote:On January 26 2022 00:01 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 25 2022 16:35 BlackJack wrote: For the United States recognition is not given for natural immunity. I know people that are young, healthy, double vaxxed, and had a recent COVID infection and still have to get a booster or lose their job. I'm sure Pfizer appreciates their support. How many jobs actually require a booster? My job at least wanted us to get vaxed last year and completely overhauled our benefits system to track it. I haven't heard anything about boosters, although I did get mine already. Even the software overhaul was only because they wanted to get ahead of any federal requirements. If there isn't a mandate for boosters there isn't going to be the will power to require them. Boosters were required for us due to government mandate. Some companies have gone even further than the government requires them to in terms of requiring boosters. Here's an article that has some information https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2022/01/17/apple-is-now-requiring-workers-to-show-proof-of-a-booster-shot/ You know apple, meta citbank goldman and so on are not the governmet right? The only hint of gov in your article is that the state of Hawii "may". All the harshest mandates were from private companies and iys "comservatives" trying to get law makers to make rules against businesses requiring vaccines or boosters. Say it like it is, major US companies ate mandatimg their staff for vaccination and some are starting to for boosters. Some governments may follow their lead though none have. I do not get this approach of yours at all, spme strange business is good gov is bad so blame them thing? When your philosophy is build around 'government bad, free market good' you can't then shout at the free market making companies protect their productivity by mandating (or heavily pushing for) vaccination as tyrannical. So you blame the government for something they are not doing.
On January 26 2022 22:50 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2022 17:23 BlackJack wrote:On January 26 2022 00:01 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 25 2022 16:35 BlackJack wrote: For the United States recognition is not given for natural immunity. I know people that are young, healthy, double vaxxed, and had a recent COVID infection and still have to get a booster or lose their job. I'm sure Pfizer appreciates their support. How many jobs actually require a booster? My job at least wanted us to get vaxed last year and completely overhauled our benefits system to track it. I haven't heard anything about boosters, although I did get mine already. Even the software overhaul was only because they wanted to get ahead of any federal requirements. If there isn't a mandate for boosters there isn't going to be the will power to require them. Boosters were required for us due to government mandate. Some companies have gone even further than the government requires them to in terms of requiring boosters. Here's an article that has some information https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2022/01/17/apple-is-now-requiring-workers-to-show-proof-of-a-booster-shot/ too bad the first paragraph says this right Show nested quote +Apple will call upon all unvaccinated employees to show negative Covid-19 rapid antigen tests before they are able to enter the workplace, starting on January 24. not required if you can just do rapid tests. I doubt many people are willing to put up with daily tests for god knows how long just to avoid a quick jab of a needle in their arm. Which is ofcourse the whole point, offer an option besides vaccination that is cumbersome enough that people don't want to chose that option and instead quit or get vaccinated.
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