EPTIt makes no sense to me that the same nations that said they cannot do a Chinese style hard lockdown for 2 months are now implementing policies that are far more authoritarian. Whatever stat you look at, whether cases, death, economic damage etc, it is obvious which strategy is far superior. They are just doubling down on a strategy of namby-pamby half-assed lockdowns and vaccination, which so far has been a gigantic failure.
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REDBLUEGREEN
Germany1904 Posts
It makes no sense to me that the same nations that said they cannot do a Chinese style hard lockdown for 2 months are now implementing policies that are far more authoritarian. Whatever stat you look at, whether cases, death, economic damage etc, it is obvious which strategy is far superior. They are just doubling down on a strategy of namby-pamby half-assed lockdowns and vaccination, which so far has been a gigantic failure. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22664 Posts
On December 03 2021 03:49 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: Because a lockdown doesn't solve the underlying issue?If we throw liberty out of the window why not at least chose the strategy that actually has proven itself to work amazingly well? It makes no sense to me that the same nations that said they cannot do a Chinese style hard lockdown for 2 months are now implementing policies that are far more authoritarian. Whatever stat you look at, whether cases, death, economic damage etc, it is obvious which strategy is far superior. They are just doubling down on a strategy of namby-pamby half-assed lockdowns and vaccination, which so far has been a gigantic failure. In the past we used lockdowns to 'flatten the curve', reduce infections which in turn reduces pressure on healthcare to buy time for vaccines. We have vaccines now. Lockdowns are needed in some countries to reduce healthcare pressure but unless you take additional measures nothing changes and cases just go up again once your out of lockdown until they are high enough to once again need a lockdown. | ||
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Lmui
Canada6223 Posts
On December 02 2021 21:35 BlackJack wrote: I was just asking Lmui to elaborate on his statement that there is more data and reasoning to back up Biden's Africa travel restrictions than Trump's China travel restrictions in early 2020. We have less data - we don't even know where this variant originated or how virulent it is. We also have less reasoning - COVID is already widespread everywhere. There was 1000x more reason to have travel bans in early 2020 before COVID was widespread, before we had PPE, before we had treatment protocols, before we had testing infrastructure, do I need to go on? Anyone without a political axe to grind should agree that restricting travel from China in early 2020 makes a ton more sense than Biden's travel restrictions on Africa. The fact that the opposite is being stated here just demonstrates my earlier point that both sides have politicized the virus and made it a partisan issue. Mostly based on this: The U.S. government first issued a “Level 4: Do Not Travel” advisory on travel to the Hubei province where the city of Wuhan is. You might recall that Wuhan is the original epicenter of the coronavirus. A nationwide travel ban from China took effect on January 31, 2020, with a few confirmed cases in the United States. This ban was only for non-U.S. citizens who had been in China within the last 14 days and were not the immediate family member of U.S. citizens or/and permanent residents. There was barely any information on Covid at this point other than it being a transmissible disease with flu-like symptoms. There wasn't any serious effort to test for it, or anything up until March 2020 IIRC when shit hit the fan. There wasn't any data to say what the infection rate was from travellers in Wuhan/China. In comparison, most countries have very good ideas about the infection rate of people traveling from the African continent, given that tests are required to fly, and testing is also done at the destination in most cases. In comparison, around 10% of passengers from S.A. (In a fairly large sample) were positive. Trump's ban was far more gut-feel than the current bans. | ||
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teeel141
93 Posts
On December 03 2021 03:49 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: If we throw liberty out of the window why not at least chose the strategy that actually has proven itself to work amazingly well? It makes no sense to me that the same nations that said they cannot do a Chinese style hard lockdown for 2 months are now implementing policies that are far more authoritarian. Whatever stat you look at, whether cases, death, economic damage etc, it is obvious which strategy is far superior. They are just doubling down on a strategy of namby-pamby half-assed lockdowns and vaccination, which so far has been a gigantic failure. I'm sure they will try that once forced vaccination fails. The big thing is that to do Chinese type of lockdown you need to build certain infrastructure, and they were building it for years in China for political control reasons. Also very powerful people are so invested in one strategy that it cannot be allowed to fail or they will get the blame. It doesn't matter if for conspiracy reasons or not we are entering into a dystopia. And this is especially why people should resist forced vaccination, it wouldnt even solve the problem so its built on a lie. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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teeel141
93 Posts
Do you follow the news? | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On December 03 2021 04:35 Lmui wrote: Mostly based on this: There was barely any information on Covid at this point other than it being a transmissible disease with flu-like symptoms. There wasn't any serious effort to test for it, or anything up until March 2020 IIRC when shit hit the fan. There wasn't any data to say what the infection rate was from travellers in Wuhan/China. In comparison, most countries have very good ideas about the infection rate of people traveling from the African continent, given that tests are required to fly, and testing is also done at the destination in most cases. In comparison, around 10% of passengers from S.A. (In a fairly large sample) were positive. Trump's ban was far more gut-feel than the current bans. Trump's ban came after China itself locked down Wuhan and coincided with the CDC/WHO declaring COVID a public health emergency. Are you arguing that Trump should have let COVID spread a little more so we knew more about it before he issued any travel restrictions? Seems like an unusual take. If Trump were still President and issued a knee-jerk travel ban on Africa due to this omnicron variant he would be getting 10x the criticism as Biden. So for the people that post things like "Why is this a partisan issue. Why can't we all just come together to fight the virus." There's your answer. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On December 03 2021 07:28 BlackJack wrote: Trump's ban came after China itself locked down Wuhan and coincided with the CDC/WHO declaring COVID a public health emergency. Are you arguing that Trump should have let COVID spread a little more so we knew more about it before he issued any travel restrictions? Seems like an unusual take. If Trump were still President and issued a knee-jerk travel ban on Africa due to this omnicron variant he would be getting 10x the criticism as Biden. So for the people that post things like "Why is this a partisan issue. Why can't we all just come together to fight the virus." There's your answer. No, nobody is arguing that, you don’t seem to be responding to the actual arguments people have put forward. Multiple times, by multiple posters. You’ve not actually responded to critiques of your own postulations in this domain, you just ignore them and reiterate your own initial point. Please stop doing that, it’s annoying. And your general posting on this topic is good, and I like what you bring to to the general topic outside of this point you seem hellbent on making. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On December 03 2021 08:53 WombaT wrote: No, nobody is arguing that, you don’t seem to be responding to the actual arguments people have put forward. Multiple times, by multiple posters. You’ve not actually responded to critiques of your own postulations in this domain, you just ignore them and reiterate your own initial point. Please stop doing that, it’s annoying. And your general posting on this topic is good, and I like what you bring to to the general topic outside of this point you seem hellbent on making. Fair, strike that sentence. The reason I am hellbent on making the point is that people are hellbent on using whatever kind of mental gymnastics to deny this obvious double standard. Biden's travel restrictions were done against the advisement of the WHO, it was done before we even knew much of anything about this variant in terms of infectiousness, virulence, etc. it was done before we even knew where it originated. etc. It was 10x more knee-jerk than Trump's travel ban. As soon as people give up on the delusion that it was done judiciously and with better data and reason then I will stop posting the opposite. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States24391 Posts
When it comes to what should have actually been done imo, first thanking South African scientists for identifying the variant, then excessive apologies for western nations hoarding vaccines, then a massive effort to prioritize vaccinating the world before hoarding more vaccines (with millions rotting on the shelves) and pushing boosters for otherwise low-risk populations. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain18470 Posts
On December 03 2021 13:11 Mohdoo wrote: Great example why there shouldn't be non-essential international travel. The entire idea that we still have tourists flying around so they can look at stuff is mind boggling. The SA travel ban was justified and smart. The travel ban should have been expanded to the entire planet other than essential travel, with global mandatory 2 week quarantine+testing. Define essential please. Let me give some examples and you can say yes/no so we can get some idea. Is an epidemiologist travelling to South Africa to study omicron essential? Is an aspiring epidemiologist travelling to Germany to start a residency in a hospital there essential? Is a university student studying medicine travelling from France to Norway for a 6-month exchange program (Erasmus) essential? Replace medical student with fine arts student in the situation above. Is a nurse from Kenya travelling to the US for a new job essential? Is an IT specialist from Bangalore travelling to the US for a new job essential? Is a Mexican bricklayer travelling to the US for a temp job on a construction site essential? Is a Mexican farm worker travelling to the US for a temp job harvesting tomatoes essential? Is a business trip to secure the supply line for Pfizer's vaccine essential? Is a business trip to secure the supply line for Apple essential? Is a business trip to oversee construction of a new hotel in Southern Spain essential? Is a blue collar laborer going to spend a few days in a hotel in Southern Spain essential? | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4456 Posts
On December 03 2021 13:11 Mohdoo wrote: Great example why there shouldn't be non-essential international travel. The entire idea that we still have tourists flying around so they can look at stuff is mind boggling. The SA travel ban was justified and smart. The travel ban should have been expanded to the entire planet other than essential travel, with global mandatory 2 week quarantine+testing. If they are going to keep doing this, then they need to stop running the ad campaigns saying ‘Get vaccinated and you can travel international again’ as happened extensively in this country which has had 20 months of nonessential international travel bans (And also numerous interstate travel bans). Trust in government has taken a huge hit, due to the continual shifting of goalposts. And I’d question how you would keep airlines solvent under such conditions, after they’ve already had two years of bad trading.Keep on bailing them out with taxpayer dollars? | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5617 Posts
On December 01 2021 20:28 YumYumGranola wrote: I think the main thing that separates the response now from the response back in 2020 is the context of everything surrounding it. Travel restrictions are a delaying tactic. The main criticism of trump at the time is that he was treating it like a solution, and neglecting to do or undermining the efforts of his experts to put into place the systems we actually needed. I think the reason why the China travel ban was seen as xenophobic and the present situation is not is the same as the reason why the virus wasn't called the Wuhan virus, why you'd get banned from twitter for speculating about it being man-made (plausible theory, it turns out), and why the present mutation isn't called Xi. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On December 03 2021 13:11 Mohdoo wrote: Great example why there shouldn't be non-essential international travel. The entire idea that we still have tourists flying around so they can look at stuff is mind boggling. The SA travel ban was justified and smart. The travel ban should have been expanded to the entire planet other than essential travel, with global mandatory 2 week quarantine+testing. What, forever? Why are your views so extreme? I'm just curious | ||
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